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Who is "The Son of Man" in Daniel 7:13-14?

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  • BYT YHWH
    Shalom Everyone! DANIEL 7:13-14 (INTERLINEAR ENGLISH-HEBREW/ARAMAIC) - 13 I saw in the night
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 9, 2008
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      Shalom Everyone!

       

      DANIEL 7:13-14 (INTERLINEAR ENGLISH-HEBREW/ARAMAIC) -

      13 I saw <hava' (Aramaic)> <chaza' (Aramaic)> in the night <leylaya' (Aramaic)> visions <chezev (Aramaic)>, and, behold <'aruw (Aramaic)>, one like the Son <bar (Aramaic)> of man <'enash (Aramaic)> came <'athah (Aramaic)> with <`im (Aramaic)> the clouds <`anan (Aramaic)> of heaven <shamayin (Aramaic)>, and came <mata' (Aramaic)> to <`ad (Aramaic)> the Ancient <`attiyq (Aramaic)> of days <yowm (Aramaic)>, and they brought him near <qareb (Aramaic)> before <qodam (Aramaic)> him.
       14 And there was given <yahab (Aramaic)> him dominion <sholtan (Aramaic)>, and glory <yaqar (Aramaic)>, and a reign <malkuw (Aramaic)>, that all <kol (Aramaic)> people <`am (Aramaic)>, nations <'ummah (Aramaic)>, and languages <lishshan (Aramaic)>, should serve <palach (Aramaic)> him: his dominion <sholtan (Aramaic)> is an everlasting <`alam (Aramaic)> dominion <sholtan (Aramaic)>, which shall not <la' (Aramaic)> pass away <`ada' (Aramaic)>, and his reign <malkuw (Aramaic)> that which shall not <la' (Aramaic)> be destroyed <chabal (Aramaic)>.

       

       

      Who is "The Son of Man" Who Came with the clouds of Heaven to The Ancient Of Days (Father YHWH / Yahweh)?

       

      My answer is:

      YHWSU (YAHSHUA), THE SON OF MAN, AND THE SON OF YHWH (YAHWEH), WHO WAS RESURRECTED, AND ASCENDED WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN TO FATHER YHWH (YAHWEH), THEN TO RECEIVE DOMINION, GLORY, AND A REIGN!

       

      ACTS 1: 9-11

       9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
       10 And while they looked stedfastly toward Heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
       11 Which also said, You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into Heaven? this same YHWSU (Yahshua), Which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen Him go into Heaven.

       

      MATTITHYAH (MATTHEW) 24:30-31 -

       30 And then shall appear the Sign of the Son of Man in Heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the Earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with Power and Great Glory.
       31 And He shall send His Malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His Elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.

       

       

      Waiting for answers and comments, especially from Tanak (Old Covenant) believers and observants...
       
      Group members which do NOT believe in The New Testament, and in YHWSU (Yahshua), as The Son of YHWH (Yahweh), and The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah), and in His Sacrifice, would have hard time to answer the question, and to comment Daniel 7:13-14, in other ways.
       
      May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
       
      True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
       
      Carlo Tognoni
       
      BYT YHWH
      The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
       
      ========================================================
       
    • Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael
      Shalom Carlo, You asked, Who is The Son of Man Who Came with the clouds of Heaven to The Ancient Of Days (Father YHWH / Yahweh)? You quoted two portions from
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 9, 2008
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        Shalom Carlo,

        You asked, Who is "The Son of Man" Who Came with the clouds of Heaven to The Ancient Of Days (Father YHWH / Yahweh)?

        You quoted two portions from the New Testament say that it is referring to Yehoshua. The Tanakh says differently. Keep in mind that Daniel 7 is a vision. The Tanakh gives the interpretation of the vision. But first, let us review the Son of Man reference in Daniel 7.

        Daniel 7

        13 I continued looking in the visions of the night, when lo! with the clouds of the heavens, one like a son of man, was coming,––and, unto the Ancient of days, he approached, and, before him, they brought him near;

        14 and,

        unto him, were given dominion and dignity and kingship, that all peoples, races and tongues, unto him, should do service,––his dominion, was an age–abiding dominion, which should not pass away, and, his kingdom, that which should not be destroyed.

        Daniel 7

        15 ¶ The spirit of, me, Daniel, was grieved in the midst of the sheath,––and, the visions of my head, terrified me.

        16 I drew near unto one of them who stood by, and made exact enquiry of him, concerning all this,––so he told me, and, the interpretation of the things, made he known unto me.

        17 These great wild beasts, which are four,––are four kings who shall arise out of the earth;

        18 but the holy ones of the Highest, shall receive the kingdom,––and shall possess the kingdom for the age, yea for the age of ages.

        19 Then desired I to be sure, concerning the fourth wild beast, which was diverse from all of them,––exceeding terrible, whose, teeth, were iron, and, his claws, of bronze, he devoured, brake in pieces, and, the residue––with his feet, he trampled down;

        20 also concerning the ten horns, which were in his head, and the other, which came up, and there fell––from among them that were before it––three,––and this horn which had, eyes, and, a mouth, speaking great things, and, his look, was more proud than his fellows:

        21 I continued looking, when, this horn, made war with the holy ones,––and prevailed against them:

        22 until that the Ancient of Days, came, and, justice, was granted

        to the holy ones of the Highest,––and, the time, arrived, that the holy ones should possess, the kingdom.

        23 Thus, he said, The fourth wild beast, is a fourth kingdom which shall be in the earth, which shall be diverse from all the kingdoms,––and shall devour all the earth, and shall trample it down, and break it in pieces.

        24 And, the ten horns of that kingdom, are ten kings who will arise,––and, another, will arise after them, and, he, will be diverse from the former ones, and, three kings, will he cast down;

        25 and, words against the Most High, will he speak, and, the holy ones of the Highest, will he afflict,––and will hope to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand, for a season and seasons and the dividing of a season,

        26 but, Judgment, will take its seat,––and, his dominion, will they take away, to destroy and make disappear unto an end.

        27 And, the kingdom, and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the holy ones of the Highest,––his kingdom, is an age–abiding kingdom, and, all the dominions, unto him, will render service, and show themselves obedient.

        And when we check the Aramaic text, term holy ones of the Most High is Nynwyl( y#ydq--qadishey elyoniyn--which is literally the supernal holy ones.

        According to the interpretation given to Daniel, the Son of Man is literally the Saints of the Most High. And His Kingdom is referring to the Kingdom of YHWH (the Ancient of Days). The throne is His. That is taught in Revelations.

        These saints of the Most High are the elohiym spoken of in Psalms.

        Psalms 82:6

        6 ¶ I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

        7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

        8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

        That directly parallels Daniel 7--even the part about falling like one of the prince.

        Paul also speaks about this subject.

        1 Corinthians

        1 ¶ Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

        2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

        3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

        So, the Son of Man spoken of in Daniel 7 is speaking of the saints of the Most High collectively. We also find this theme in the book of Isaiah. They are referred to as the Remnant of Israel. This is why we notice that Isaiah 53 speaks of the Suffering Servant both in the collective (plural) sense and the singular. Yehoshua is the embodiment of the Saints of the Most High. Being that he is the supreme one the Saints of the Most High, naturally his life parallels the things are prophesied concerning these holy individuals.

        But, we strip the Scriptures of the plain meaning by saying that Daniel 7 is only speaking of the Messiah. Similarly, I see this done all the time with Isaiah 53 when, in truth, every verse of Isaiah 53 is also fulfilled by the remnant of Israel and the saints of the Most High just like Daniel 7. In both cases, you can search the Tanakh and find that everything in both Isaiah 53 and Daniel 7 happens to the saints of the Most High as a collective.

        The link below gives a good article showing that the Suffering Servant Isaiah 53 is speaking about the collective Remnant of Israel/Saints of the Most High. Keep in mind, this does not exclude Yehoshua at all even though it is the author's intention to do so. I only post it because--just like Daniel 7 explicitly says that it is speaking of a collective--it can easily be shown that Isaiah 53 is also a collective (even thought it does contain messianic elements). However, it cannot be denied that Daniel 7 and Isaiah 53 speak about the righteous Israel as a collective.

        http://www.virtualyeshiva.com/counter-index.html

        So, even though we have a strong zeal to promote believe in Yehoshua using the Tanakh, we must also be careful not to strip the Holy Writ of its basic meaning. Then we venture off into Christianity and the worship of the Messiah unwittingly. This is easy for those with Christian background to do. This is why you see so many Messianics who believe YHWH and His Torah and at the same time still cling to Christian beliefs such as Yehoshua being YHWH himself or that he pre-existed as the Angel of YHWH.

        Therefore, it is good that we believe in the Messiah (by believing that he is sent from the Creator, speaks the actual words of the Creator, and enables us to draw near to the Father). But, I am ultra-cautious of accepting Christian doctrines that gives undue reverence and focus on the Messiah. Unfortunately, the majority of us were born with Christian beliefs and strengthen these false doctrines by reading Christian translations of the Bible. The more I read the original texts, the more Christian ideologies drop off. And as I said in a previous post, we do not need the Tanakh or New Testament to prove who the Messiah is. There is no need to believe in the real Messiah. His acts and deeds are so evident that he cannot be denied. We will come to believe in the Messiah the exact same way that the first believers did--by experience.

        I may have touched some nerves in this post. I apologize. But, in keeping with the focus of this thread, my only point is that Daniel 7is speaking about the Saints of YHWH as a collective. This is the plain meaning of the text. It is not my intention to discredit or disprove that Yehoshua is not in the Tanakh. My only focus is that Daniel 7 is speaking about a collective of people0--not only Yehoshua. However, it would be a good idea for you check out the link I provide so that you are prepared to answer the challenges of Tanakh-only believers. That link is a primary source for their beliefs and it goes line for line with the Hebrew.

        Shalom,

        Yehochanan


        --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com, BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@...> wrote:
        >
        > Shalom Everyone!
        > DANIEL 7:13-14 (INTERLINEAR ENGLISH-HEBREW/ARAMAIC) -
        > 13 I saw <hava' (Aramaic)> <chaza' (Aramaic)> in the night <leylaya' (Aramaic)> visions <chezev (Aramaic)>, and, behold <'aruw (Aramaic)>, one like the Son <bar (Aramaic)> of man <'enash (Aramaic)> came <'athah (Aramaic)> with <`im (Aramaic)> the clouds <`anan (Aramaic)> of heaven <shamayin (Aramaic)>, and came <mata' (Aramaic)> to <`ad (Aramaic)> the Ancient <`attiyq (Aramaic)> of days <yowm (Aramaic)>, and they brought him near <qareb (Aramaic)> before <qodam (Aramaic)> him.
        >  14 And there was given <yahab (Aramaic)> him dominion <sholtan (Aramaic)>, and glory <yaqar (Aramaic)>, and a reign <malkuw (Aramaic)>, that all <kol (Aramaic)> people <`am (Aramaic)>, nations <'ummah (Aramaic)>, and languages <lishshan (Aramaic)>, should serve <palach (Aramaic)> him: his dominion <sholtan (Aramaic)> is an everlasting <`alam (Aramaic)> dominion <sholtan (Aramaic)>, which shall not <la' (Aramaic)> pass away <`ada' (Aramaic)>, and his reign <malkuw (Aramaic)> that which shall not <la' (Aramaic)> be destroyed <chabal (Aramaic)>.
        >  
        > Who is "The Son of Man" Who Came with the clouds of Heaven to The Ancient Of Days (Father YHWH / Yahweh)?
        >  
        > My answer is:
        > YHWSU (YAHSHUA), THE SON OF MAN, AND THE SON OF YHWH (YAHWEH), WHO WAS RESURRECTED, AND ASCENDED WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN TO FATHER YHWH (YAHWEH), THEN TO RECEIVE DOMINION, GLORY, AND A REIGN!
        >  
        > ACTS 1: 9-11
        >  9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
        >  10 And while they looked stedfastly toward Heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
        >  11 Which also said, You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into Heaven? this same YHWSU (Yahshua), Which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen Him go into Heaven.
        >  
        > MATTITHYAH (MATTHEW) 24:30-31 -
        >  30 And then shall appear the Sign of the Son of Man in Heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the Earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with Power and Great Glory.
        >  31 And He shall send His Malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His Elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.
        >  
        > Waiting for answers and comments, especially from Tanak (Old Covenant) believers and observants...
        >  
        > Group members which do NOT believe in The New Testament, and in YHWSU (Yahshua), as The Son of YHWH (Yahweh), and The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah), and in His Sacrifice, would have hard time to answer the question, and to comment Daniel 7:13-14, in other ways.
        >  
        > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
        >  
        > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
        >  
        > Carlo Tognoni
        >  
        > BYT YHWH
        > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
        > www.byt-yhwh.. org
        >  
        > ========================================================
        >

      • BYT YHWH
        Shalom Yehochanan,   I disagree with your intepretation.   Do you think that I have not read Daniel Chapter 7, before to post my message?   Verses 13-14
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 9, 2008
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          Shalom Yehochanan,

           

          I disagree with your intepretation.

           

          Do you think that I have not read Daniel Chapter 7, before to post my message?

           

          Verses 13-14 clearly speak of ONE Person. YHWSU (Yahshua), The MashiYah (MessiYah). 

           

          Verses 18, 21, 22, 25, 27 speak of MANY Persons. The SAINTS of The Most High.

           

          It is very clear that Verses 18, 21, 22, 25, 27 are NOT the DIRECT interpretation of Verses 13-14!

           

          Verses 13-14 clearly show YHWSU (Yahshua), THE SON OF MAN, ascending in Heaven to HIS Father YHWH (Yahweh), and being given Him dominion, glory, and a Reign.

           

          Would the SAINTS come to Heaven with the cloud of heaven, and present themselves before YHWH (Yahweh)?

           

          I do NOT read of ANY Scripture saying that!

           

          At MOST, I read of the SAINTS in the clouds to meet in the air YHWSU (Yahshua) DESCENDING from the Heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

           

          Verses 18, 21, 22, 25, 27 show when the SAINTS are persecuted for 3 1/2 times, and then when the Reign is ALREADY Set.

           

          And KINGS and PRIESTS (SAINTS, Set Apart Ones) will be set under YHWSU (Yahshua), THE KING OF KINGS, and MASTER OF MASTERS, as Revelation Chapters 19 and 20 clearly show!

           

          With your interpretation, YOU ARE LOWING DOWN YHWSU (YAHSHUA) AT THE SAME LEVEL OF THE SAINTS (KINGS AND MASTERS), WHILE HE IS ALWAYS THE FIRST IN EVERYTHING, AS A LOT OF SCRIPTURES CLEARLY SHOW, HE IS THE KING OF KINGS, AND THE MASTER OF MASTERS!

           

          It would be really strange that HE IS THE HEAD OF THE BODY OF THE SAINTS NOW, AND THEIR HIGH PRIEST, AND THEN HE WILL BECOME KING EQUAL TO THEM!

           

          May YHWH (Yahweh) Open your mind, heart, eyes, and ears to Understand It!

           

          In The Name of YHWSU (Yahshua), Th TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah), THE KING OF KINGS, AND MASTER OF MASTERS (Revelation 19:16),

           

          Carlo Tognoni

           

          BYT YHWH

          The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua

          www.byt-yhwh.org

           

          ========================================================

           

           



          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael <yehochanan@...>
          To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, June 9, 2008 9:35:07 PM
          Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Who is "The Son of Man" in Daniel 7:13-14?

          Shalom Carlo,

          You asked, Who is "The Son of Man" Who Came with the clouds of Heaven to The Ancient Of Days (Father YHWH / Yahweh)?

          You quoted two portions from the New Testament say that it is referring to Yehoshua. The Tanakh says differently. Keep in mind that Daniel 7 is a vision. The Tanakh gives the interpretation of the vision. But first, let us review the Son of Man reference in Daniel 7.

          Daniel 7

          13 I continued looking in the visions of the night, when lo! with the clouds of the heavens, one like a son of man, was coming,––and, unto the Ancient of days, he approached, and, before him, they brought him near;

          14 and,

          unto him, were given dominion and dignity and kingship, that all peoples, races and tongues, unto him, should do service,––his dominion, was an age–abiding dominion, which should not pass away, and, his kingdom, that which should not be destroyed.

          Daniel 7

          15 ¶ The spirit of, me, Daniel, was grieved in the midst of the sheath,––and, the visions of my head, terrified me.

          16 I drew near unto one of them who stood by, and made exact enquiry of him, concerning all this,––so he told me, and, the interpretation of the things, made he known unto me.

          17 These great wild beasts, which are four,––are four kings who shall arise out of the earth;

          18 but the holy ones of the Highest, shall receive the kingdom,––and shall possess the kingdom for the age, yea for the age of ages.

          19 Then desired I to be sure, concerning the fourth wild beast, which was diverse from all of them,––exceeding terrible, whose, teeth, were iron, and, his claws, of bronze, he devoured, brake in pieces, and, the residue––with his feet, he trampled down;

          20 also concerning the ten horns, which were in his head, and the other, which came up, and there fell––from among them that were before it––three,––and this horn which had, eyes, and, a mouth, speaking great things, and, his look, was more proud than his fellows:

          21 I continued looking, when, this horn, made war with the holy ones,––and prevailed against them:

          22 until that the Ancient of Days, came, and, justice, was granted

          to the holy ones of the Highest,––and, the time, arrived, that the holy ones should possess, the kingdom.

          23 Thus, he said, The fourth wild beast, is a fourth kingdom which shall be in the earth, which shall be diverse from all the kingdoms,––and shall devour all the earth, and shall trample it down, and break it in pieces.

          24 And, the ten horns of that kingdom, are ten kings who will arise,––and, another, will arise after them, and, he, will be diverse from the former ones, and, three kings, will he cast down;

          25 and, words against the Most High, will he speak, and, the holy ones of the Highest, will he afflict,––and will hope to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand, for a season and seasons and the dividing of a season,

          26 but, Judgment, will take its seat,––and, his dominion, will they take away, to destroy and make disappear unto an end.

          27 And, the kingdom, and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the holy ones of the Highest,––his kingdom, is an age–abiding kingdom, and, all the dominions, unto him, will render service, and show themselves obedient.

          And when we check the Aramaic text, term holy ones of the Most High is Nynwyl( y#ydq--qadishey elyoniyn--which is literally the supernal holy ones.

          According to the interpretation given to Daniel, the Son of Man is literally the Saints of the Most High. And His Kingdom is referring to the Kingdom of YHWH (the Ancient of Days). The throne is His. That is taught in Revelations.

          These saints of the Most High are the elohiym spoken of in Psalms.

          Psalms 82:6

          6 ¶ I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

          7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

          8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

          That directly parallels Daniel 7--even the part about falling like one of the prince.

          Paul also speaks about this subject.

          1 Corinthians

          1 ¶ Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

          2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

          3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

          So, the Son of Man spoken of in Daniel 7 is speaking of the saints of the Most High collectively. We also find this theme in the book of Isaiah. They are referred to as the Remnant of Israel. This is why we notice that Isaiah 53 speaks of the Suffering Servant both in the collective (plural) sense and the singular. Yehoshua is the embodiment of the Saints of the Most High. Being that he is the supreme one the Saints of the Most High, naturally his life parallels the things are prophesied concerning these holy individuals.

          But, we strip the Scriptures of the plain meaning by saying that Daniel 7 is only speaking of the Messiah. Similarly, I see this done all the time with Isaiah 53 when, in truth, every verse of Isaiah 53 is also fulfilled by the remnant of Israel and the saints of the Most High just like Daniel 7. In both cases, you can search the Tanakh and find that everything in both Isaiah 53 and Daniel 7 happens to the saints of the Most High as a collective.

          The link below gives a good article showing that the Suffering Servant Isaiah 53 is speaking about the collective Remnant of Israel/Saints of the Most High. Keep in mind, this does not exclude Yehoshua at all even though it is the author's intention to do so. I only post it because--just like Daniel 7 explicitly says that it is speaking of a collective-- it can easily be shown that Isaiah 53 is also a collective (even thought it does contain messianic elements). However, it cannot be denied that Daniel 7 and Isaiah 53 speak about the righteous Israel as a collective.

          http://www.virtualy eshiva.com/ counter-index. html

          So, even though we have a strong zeal to promote believe in Yehoshua using the Tanakh, we must also be careful not to strip the Holy Writ of its basic meaning. Then we venture off into Christianity and the worship of the Messiah unwittingly. This is easy for those with Christian background to do. This is why you see so many Messianics who believe YHWH and His Torah and at the same time still cling to Christian beliefs such as Yehoshua being YHWH himself or that he pre-existed as the Angel of YHWH.

          Therefore, it is good that we believe in the Messiah (by believing that he is sent from the Creator, speaks the actual words of the Creator, and enables us to draw near to the Father). But, I am ultra-cautious of accepting Christian doctrines that gives undue reverence and focus on the Messiah. Unfortunately, the majority of us were born with Christian beliefs and strengthen these false doctrines by reading Christian translations of the Bible. The more I read the original texts, the more Christian ideologies drop off. And as I said in a previous post, we do not need the Tanakh or New Testament to prove who the Messiah is. There is no need to believe in the real Messiah. His acts and deeds are so evident that he cannot be denied. We will come to believe in the Messiah the exact same way that the first believers did--by experience.

          I may have touched some nerves in this post. I apologize. But, in keeping with the focus of this thread, my only point is that Daniel 7is speaking about the Saints of YHWH as a collective. This is the plain meaning of the text. It is not my intention to discredit or disprove that Yehoshua is not in the Tanakh. My only focus is that Daniel 7 is speaking about a collective of people0--not only Yehoshua. However, it would be a good idea for you check out the link I provide so that you are prepared to answer the challenges of Tanakh-only believers. That link is a primary source for their beliefs and it goes line for line with the Hebrew.

          Shalom,

          Yehochanan


          --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@...> wrote:
          >
          > Shalom Everyone!
          > DANIEL 7:13-14 (INTERLINEAR ENGLISH-HEBREW/ ARAMAIC) -
          > 13 I saw <hava' (Aramaic)> <chaza' (Aramaic)> in the night <leylaya' (Aramaic)> visions <chezev (Aramaic)>, and, behold <'aruw (Aramaic)>, one like the Son <bar (Aramaic)> of man <'enash (Aramaic)> came <'athah (Aramaic)> with <`im (Aramaic)> the clouds <`anan (Aramaic)> of heaven <shamayin (Aramaic)>, and came <mata' (Aramaic)> to <`ad (Aramaic)> the Ancient <`attiyq (Aramaic)> of days <yowm (Aramaic)>, and they brought him near <qareb (Aramaic)> before <qodam (Aramaic)> him.
          >  14 And there was given <yahab (Aramaic)> him dominion <sholtan (Aramaic)>, and glory <yaqar (Aramaic)>, and a reign <malkuw (Aramaic)>, that all <kol (Aramaic)> people <`am (Aramaic)>, nations <'ummah (Aramaic)>, and languages <lishshan (Aramaic)>, should serve <palach (Aramaic)> him: his dominion <sholtan (Aramaic)> is an everlasting <`alam (Aramaic)> dominion <sholtan (Aramaic)>, which shall not <la' (Aramaic)> pass away <`ada' (Aramaic)>, and his reign <malkuw (Aramaic)> that which shall not <la' (Aramaic)> be destroyed <chabal (Aramaic)>.
          >  
          > Who is "The Son of Man" Who Came with the clouds of Heaven to The Ancient Of Days (Father YHWH / Yahweh)?
          >  
          > My answer is:
          > YHWSU (YAHSHUA), THE SON OF MAN, AND THE SON OF YHWH (YAHWEH), WHO WAS RESURRECTED, AND ASCENDED WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN TO FATHER YHWH (YAHWEH), THEN TO RECEIVE DOMINION, GLORY, AND A REIGN!
          >  
          > ACTS 1: 9-11
          >  9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
          >  10 And while they looked stedfastly toward Heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
          >  11 Which also said, You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into Heaven? this same YHWSU (Yahshua), Which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen Him go into Heaven.
          >  
          > MATTITHYAH (MATTHEW) 24:30-31 -
          >  30 And then shall appear the Sign of the Son of Man in Heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the Earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with Power and Great Glory.
          >  31 And He shall send His Malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His Elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.
          >  
          > Waiting for answers and comments, especially from Tanak (Old Covenant) believers and observants.. .
          >  
          > Group members which do NOT believe in The New Testament, and in YHWSU (Yahshua), as The Son of YHWH (Yahweh), and The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah), and in His Sacrifice, would have hard time to answer the question, and to comment Daniel 7:13-14, in other ways.
          >  
          > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
          >  
          > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
          >  
          > Carlo Tognoni
          >  
          > BYT YHWH
          > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
          > www.byt-yhwh. . org
          >  
          > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
          >

        • Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael
          Shalom Carlo, As I promised, I will now respond to your assertion that the Son of Man spoken of in Daniel 7 is speaking only about the Messiah to the exclusion
          Message 4 of 4 , Jun 12, 2008
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            Shalom Carlo,

            As I promised, I will now respond to your assertion that the Son of Man spoken of in Daniel 7 is speaking only about the Messiah to the exclusion of the Righteous Remnant of Israel as opposed to the believe that it is speaking of one collective unit of believers. We are both right in that respect. But I do see your point about the term Son of Man only referring to the Messiah. So, I actually think I should be able to add on to your believe in this post.

            This the verse that leads me to believe that the Messiah and the Righteous Remnant are one unit.

            Daniel 7:13

            I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came
            with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

            As you can see, the Son of Man come with the armies of heaven (or heavenly host). In Hebrew and Aramaic, the word anan (

            Nn() means both cloud and host. The clouds/host of heaven is the Righteous Remnant of Israel. However, you are correct in saying that the Son of Man refers to the Mashiach in this case. Plus, the book of Daniel is a late book. At this time, the term Son of Man (bar enash--#n) rb) is universally intended to mean Mashiach even though the plain meaning is human being.

            This was not clear to me when I read it quickly in English. But, when I reread it in Aramaic, I was forced to read the text more slowly. I noticed the changes from singular to plural and vice-verse in the interpretation. This showed clearly that there is a distinction. The kingdom is given to HIM and dominion is experience by the Remnant of Israel. This is echoed in Revelation 20:6.

            The interesting this about this vision is that it is repeated throughout the Tanakh and New Testament is more or less detail. People think that the vision in the Book of Revelation is a unique. But, is it no more than a summary of the same vision given to Ezra, Ezekiel, and Isaiah.

            This is an example of the same vision given in 2Ezra.

            2Ezra 2

            33 I, Ezra, received a command from the Lord on Mount Horeb to go to Israel. When I came to them they rejected me and refused the Lord's commandment.

            34 Therefore I say to you, O nations that hear and understand, "

            Await your shepherd; he will give you everlasting rest, because he who will come at the end of the age is close at hand.

            35 Be ready for the rewards of the kingdom, because the eternal light will shine upon you for evermore.

            36 Flee from the shadow of this age, receive the joy of your glory; I publicly call on my Savior to witness.

            37 Receive what the Lord has entrusted to you and be joyful, giving thanks to him who has called you to heavenly kingdoms.

            38 Rise and stand, and see at the feast of the Lord the number of those who have been sealed.

            39 Those who have departed from the shadow of this age have received glorious garments from the Lord.

            40 Take again your full number, O Zion, and conclude the list of your people who are clothed in white, who have fulfilled the law of the Lord.

            41 The number of your children, whom you desired, is full; beseech the Lord's power that your people, who have been called from the beginning, may be made holy."

            42 I, Ezra, saw on Mount Zion a great multitude, which I could not number, and they all were praising the Lord with songs.

            43 In their midst was a young man of great stature, taller than any of the others, and on the head of each of them he placed a crown, but he was more exalted than they. And I was held spellbound.

            44 Then I asked an angel, "Who are these, my lord?"

            45 He answered and said to me, "These are they who have put off mortal clothing and have put on the immortal, and they have confessed the name of God; now they are being crowned, and receive palms."

            46 Then I said to the angel, "Who is that young man who places crowns on them and puts palms in their hands?"

            47 He answered and said to me, "He is the Son of God, whom they confessed in the world." So I began to praise those who had stood valiantly for the name of the Lord.

            48 Then the angel said to me, "Go, tell my people how great and many are the wonders of the Lord God which you have seen."

            I did not need to add those verses from 2Ezra to prove anything. I already acknowledged that the Son of Man is Mashiach. I just put that verse up to show that none of my beliefs concerning the Mashiach of from the New Testament. The New Testament can only remind of us of what is already given by the Prophets. This is why I disputed the teaching that the execution of the physical body of Mashiach is a sacrifice along with the physical body. I am just ultra-sensitive and watchful of any Christian teachings. Once everything is proven in the New Testament, THEN I can use it for study.

            And as you noticed, I accept certain so-called Apocrypha books as part of the Hagiographa/Kethuviym. I put them to the same scrutiny as I did with the New Testament writings. So, in addition to the Jewish canon, I accept 2Ezra, Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Yeshua Ben Sirach, Tobit, Baruch, and 1-4 Maccabees. It is in those book that that many difficult teachings in the New Testament are explained especially when it comes to terminology and practices.

            Man…this is getting old.

            That is two times in a row that I was proven wrong. Seems like 95% of my understanding is correct. I am just off with the last little bit. In the case with the sacrifice of Messiah, I knew that spiritual body atoned for sin, but I neglected the FULL importance of the physical body. In this case, I had the correct understanding concerning the Saints of Israel, but I made a minor error in not saying that the Son of Man only refers to the Mashiach. Technically, I knew this because of what it says in 2Ezra and Revelation. I just did not tie the Lamb (Revelation) and Son of God (2Ezra) with Bar Enosh/Son of Man (Daniel 7) which should have been obvious. Because if the Son of Man is a collective, then the Lamb must be a collective as well, which is incorrect.

            This is why I do not believe in coming up with any doctrine alone. This taught all throughout the New Testament.

            1 Corinthians 14

            25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

            26 ¶ How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

            27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

            28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

            29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

            30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

            31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

            32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

            33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

            There are many other verses on this subject. But, I bring that on up because it teaches us that we are not to just read the Bible on our own and start teachings others. I hate when people says the Father revealed it to me and come up with crazy stuff. We check with the brethren to verify that the truth is not corrupted in some small way by our own egoism. The only person in history who could just claim the Father said something to him and no have to verify it with another person is the Mashiach. This is because he is the only one who has no egoism.

            Shalom,

            Yehochanan

            P.S.

            In your previous response to me, you mentioned that the saints of the Most High spoken of in Daniel 7 will meet the Messiah in the air. I assume you are referring to this verses.

            1Thessalonians 4:16-17

            For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

            Please keep in mind that the term cloud is an idiom that means crowd or host. Specifically, it means an indistinguishable mass sense we will all be one in Mashiach. Then when people read the term air--they think of the literal air that we breathe. (It is interesting that the English words air is similar to the Aramaic words in this verse a'ar--r))--and the Hebrew word awiyr--ryw)). If you take a close look at the Hebrew word, awiyr, it is the same as rw) with an extra y. That is a hint for you. But, the main point is that the verse says we will remain forever with the Lord in this state. This cannot mean the literal air since the Book of Revelations and the Tanakh says we will remain HERE on the renewed earth (Revelation 21 and 22). Also, the literally interpretation of this verse implies that the Mashiach is somewhere up in the clouds or in outer space which is ridiculous. That verse is idiomatic.

            That explanation is not germane to the subject we discussed in the post. I just mention it so that you do not go around believing and (Yah forbid) teaching that the Mashiach is going come out of the sky. Mashiach is coming like a thief in the night, not from the clouds for the world to see.


            --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com, BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@...> wrote:
            >
            > Shalom Yehochanan,
            >  
            > I disagree with your intepretation.
            >  
            > Do you think that I have not read Daniel Chapter 7, before to post my message?
            >  
            > Verses 13-14 clearly speak of ONE Person. YHWSU (Yahshua), The MashiYah (MessiYah). 
            >  
            > Verses 18, 21, 22, 25, 27 speak of MANY Persons. The SAINTS of The Most High.
            >  
            > It is very clear that Verses 18, 21, 22, 25, 27 are NOT the DIRECT interpretation of Verses 13-14!
            >  
            > Verses 13-14 clearly show YHWSU (Yahshua), THE SON OF MAN, ascending in Heaven to HIS Father YHWH (Yahweh), and being given Him dominion, glory, and a Reign.
            >  
            > Would the SAINTS come to Heaven with the cloud of heaven, and present themselves before YHWH (Yahweh)?
            > I do NOT read of ANY Scripture saying that!
            >  
            > At MOST, I read of the SAINTS in the clouds to meet in the air YHWSU (Yahshua) DESCENDING from the Heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
            >  
            > Verses 18, 21, 22, 25, 27 show when the SAINTS are persecuted for 3 1/2 times, and then when the Reign is ALREADY Set.
            > And KINGS and PRIESTS (SAINTS, Set Apart Ones) will be set under YHWSU (Yahshua), THE KING OF KINGS, and MASTER OF MASTERS, as Revelation Chapters 19 and 20 clearly show!
            >  
            > With your interpretation, YOU ARE LOWING DOWN YHWSU (YAHSHUA) AT THE SAME LEVEL OF THE SAINTS (KINGS AND MASTERS), WHILE HE IS ALWAYS THE FIRST IN EVERYTHING, AS A LOT OF SCRIPTURES CLEARLY SHOW, HE IS THE KING OF KINGS, AND THE MASTER OF MASTERS!
            > It would be really strange that HE IS THE HEAD OF THE BODY OF THE SAINTS NOW, AND THEIR HIGH PRIEST, AND THEN HE WILL BECOME KING EQUAL TO THEM!
            >  
            > May YHWH (Yahweh) Open your mind, heart, eyes, and ears to Understand It!
            >  
            > In The Name of YHWSU (Yahshua), Th TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah), THE KING OF KINGS, AND MASTER OF MASTERS (Revelation 19:16),
            >  
            > Carlo Tognoni
            >  
            > BYT YHWH
            > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
            > www.byt-yhwh.org
            >  
            > ========================================================
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael yehochanan@...
            > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, June 9, 2008 9:35:07 PM
            > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Who is "The Son of Man" in Daniel 7:13-14?
            >
            >
            > unto him, were given dominion and dignity and kingship, that all peoples, races and tongues, unto him, should do service,––his dominion, was an age–abiding dominion, which should not pass away, and, his kingdom, that which should not be destroyed.Daniel 7
            > 27 And, the kingdom, and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under all the heavens, ,––his kingdom, is an age–abiding kingdom, and, all the dominions, unto him, will render service, and show themselves obedient.and made exact enquiry of him, concerning all thisso he told me, and, the interpretation of the things, made he known unto me.17 These great wild beasts, which are four,––are four kings who shall arise out of the earth;
            > 18 but the holy ones of the Highest, shall receive the kingdom,––and shall possess the kingdom for the age, yea for the age of ages.
            > 19 Then desired I to be sure, concerning the fourth wild beast, which was diverse from all of them,––exceeding terrible, whose, teeth, were iron, and, his claws, of bronze, he devoured, brake in pieces, and, the residue––with his feet, he trampled down;
            > 20 also concerning the ten horns, which were in his head, and the other, which came up, and there fell––from among them that were before it––three,––and this horn which had, eyes, and, a mouth, speaking great things, and, his look, was more proud than his fellows:
            > 21 I continued looking, when, this horn, made war with the holy ones,––and prevailed against them:
            > 22 until that the Ancient of Days, came, and, justice, was granted to the holy ones of the Highest,––and, the time, arrived, that the holy ones should possess, the kingdom.shall be given to the people of the holy ones of the HighestNynwyl( y#ydq--qadishey elyoniyn--which is literally the supernal holy ones. judgethe earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.the saintsshall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you,
            > --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, BYT YHWH bytyhwh@ wrote:
            > >
            > > Shalom Everyone!
            > > DANIEL 7:13-14 (INTERLINEAR ENGLISH-HEBREW/ ARAMAIC) -
            > > 13 I saw <hava' (Aramaic)> <chaza' (Aramaic)> in the night <leylaya' (Aramaic)> visions <chezev (Aramaic)>, and, behold <'aruw (Aramaic)>, one like the Son <bar (Aramaic)> of man <'enash (Aramaic)> came <'athah (Aramaic)> with <`im (Aramaic)> the clouds <`anan (Aramaic)> of heaven <shamayin (Aramaic)>, and came <mata' (Aramaic)> to <`ad (Aramaic)> the Ancient <`attiyq (Aramaic)> of days <yowm (Aramaic)>, and they brought him near <qareb (Aramaic)> before <qodam (Aramaic)> him.
            > >  14 And there was given <yahab (Aramaic)> him dominion <sholtan (Aramaic)>, and glory <yaqar (Aramaic)>, and a reign <malkuw (Aramaic)>, that all <kol (Aramaic)> people <`am (Aramaic)>, nations <'ummah (Aramaic)>, and languages <lishshan (Aramaic)>, should serve <palach (Aramaic)> him: his dominion <sholtan (Aramaic)> is an everlasting <`alam (Aramaic)> dominion <sholtan (Aramaic)>, which shall not <la' (Aramaic)> pass away <`ada' (Aramaic)>, and his reign <malkuw (Aramaic)> that which shall not <la' (Aramaic)> be destroyed <chabal (Aramaic)>.
            > >  
            > > Who is "The Son of Man" Who Came with the clouds of Heaven to The Ancient Of Days (Father YHWH / Yahweh)?
            > >  
            > > My answer is:
            > > YHWSU (YAHSHUA), THE SON OF MAN, AND THE SON OF YHWH (YAHWEH), WHO WAS RESURRECTED, AND ASCENDED WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN TO FATHER YHWH (YAHWEH), THEN TO RECEIVE DOMINION, GLORY, AND A REIGN!
            > >  
            > > ACTS 1: 9-11
            > >  9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
            > >  10 And while they looked stedfastly toward Heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
            > >  11 Which also said, You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into Heaven? this same YHWSU (Yahshua), Which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen Him go into Heaven.
            > >  
            > > MATTITHYAH (MATTHEW) 24:30-31 -
            > >  30 And then shall appear the Sign of the Son of Man in Heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the Earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with Power and Great Glory.
            > >  31 And He shall send His Malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His Elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.
            > >  
            > > Waiting for answers and comments, especially from Tanak (Old Covenant) believers and observants.. .
            > >  
            > > Group members which do NOT believe in The New Testament, and in YHWSU (Yahshua), as The Son of YHWH (Yahweh), and The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah), and in His Sacrifice, would have hard time to answer the question, and to comment Daniel 7:13-14, in other ways.
            > >  
            > > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
            > >  
            > > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
            > >  
            > > Carlo Tognoni
            > >  
            > > BYT YHWH
            > > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
            > > www.byt-yhwh. . org
            > >  
            > > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
            > >
            >
            > So, even though we have a strong zeal to promote believe in Yehoshua using the Tanakh, we must also be careful not to strip the Holy Writ of its basic meaning. Then we venture off into Christianity and the worship of the Messiah unwittingly. This is easy for those with Christian background to do. This is why you see so many Messianics who believe YHWH and His Torah and at the same time still cling to Christian beliefs such as Yehoshua being YHWH himself or that he pre-existed as the Angel of YHWH.
            > Therefore, it is good that we believe in the Messiah (by believing that he is sent from the Creator, speaks the actual words of the Creator, and enables us to draw near to the Father). But, I am ultra-cautious of accepting Christian doctrines that gives undue reverence and focus on the Messiah. Unfortunately, the majority of us were born with Christian beliefs and strengthen these false doctrines by reading Christian translations of the Bible. The more I read the original texts, the more Christian ideologies drop off. And as I said in a previous post, we do not need the Tanakh or New Testament to prove who the Messiah is. There is no need to believe in the real Messiah. His acts and deeds are so evident that he cannot be denied. We will come to believe in the Messiah the exact same way that the first believers did--by experience.
            > I may have touched some nerves in this post. I apologize. But, in keeping with the focus of this thread, my only point is that Daniel 7is speaking about the Saints of YHWH as a collective. This is the plain meaning of the text. It is not my intention to discredit or disprove that Yehoshua is not in the Tanakh. My only focus is that Daniel 7 is speaking about a collective of people0--not only Yehoshua. However, it would be a good idea for you check out the link I provide so that you are prepared to answer the challenges of Tanakh-only believers. That link is a primary source for their beliefs and it goes line for line with the Hebrew.
            > Shalom,
            > Yehochananhttp://www.virtualy eshiva.com/ counter-index. htmlare ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
            > 23 Thus, he said, The fourth wild beast, is a fourth kingdom which shall be in the earth, which shall be diverse from all the kingdoms,––and shall devour all the earth, and shall trample it down, and break it in pieces.
            > 24 And, the ten horns of that kingdom, are ten kings who will arise,––and, another, will arise after them, and, he, will be diverse from the former ones, and, three kings, will he cast down;
            > 25 and, words against the Most High, will he speak, and, the holy ones of the Highest, will he afflict,––and will hope to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand, for a season and seasons and the dividing of a season,
            > 26 but, Judgment, will take its seat,––and, his dominion, will they take away, to destroy and make disappear unto an end.,––15 ¶ The spirit of, me, Daniel, was grieved in the midst of the sheath,––and, the visions of my head, terrified me.
            > 16 I drew near unto one of them who stood by,
            > And when we check the Aramaic text, term holy ones of the Most High is
            > According to the interpretation given to Daniel, the Son of Man is literally the Saints of the Most High. And His Kingdom is referring to the Kingdom of YHWH (the Ancient of Days). The throne is His. That is taught in Revelations.
            > These saints of the Most High are the elohiym spoken of in Psalms.Psalms 82:6
            > 8 Arise, O God, 6 ¶ I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High..
            > 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.That directly parallels Daniel 7--even the part about falling like one of the prince..
            > Paul also speaks about this subject. 1 Corinthians1 ¶ Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
            > 2 Do ye not know that
            > 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?So, the Son of Man spoken of in Daniel 7 is speaking of the saints of the Most High collectively. We also find this theme in the book of Isaiah. They are referred to as the Remnant of Israel. This is why we notice that Isaiah 53 speaks of the Suffering Servant both in the collective (plural) sense and the singular. Yehoshua is the embodiment of the Saints of the Most High. Being that he is the supreme one the Saints of the Most High, naturally his life parallels the things are prophesied concerning these holy individuals.
            > But, we strip the Scriptures of the plain meaning by saying that Daniel 7 is only speaking of the Messiah. Similarly, I see this done all the time with Isaiah 53 when, in truth, every verse of Isaiah 53 is also fulfilled by the remnant of Israel and the saints of the Most High just like Daniel 7. In both cases, you can search the Tanakh and find that everything in both Isaiah 53 and Daniel 7 happens to the saints of the Most High as a collective.
            > The link below gives a good article showing that the Suffering Servant Isaiah 53 is speaking about the collective Remnant of Israel/Saints of the Most High. Keep in mind, this does not exclude Yehoshua at all even though it is the author's intention to do so. I only post it because--just like Daniel 7 explicitly says that it is speaking of a collective-- it can easily be shown that Isaiah 53 is also a collective (even thought it does contain messianic elements). However, it cannot be denied that Daniel 7 and Isaiah 53 speak about the righteous Israel as a collective.
            > Shalom Carlo,
            > You asked, Who is "The Son of Man" Who Came with the clouds of Heaven to The Ancient Of Days (Father YHWH / Yahweh)?
            > You quoted two portions from the New Testament say that it is referring to Yehoshua. The Tanakh says differently. Keep in mind that Daniel 7 is a vision. The Tanakh gives the interpretation of the vision. But first, let us review the Son of Man reference in Daniel 7.Daniel 7
            > 14 and, 13 I continued looking in the visions of the night, when lo! with the clouds of the heavens, one like a son of man, was coming,––and, unto the Ancient of days, he approached, and, before him, they brought him near;
            >
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