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Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?

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  • BYT YHWH
    Shalom Yehochanan!   I fully agree with you that YHWSU (Yahshua) s Life and Ministry was ALSO part of His Sacrifice for us, just as His Disciples lives and
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 1, 2008
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      Shalom Yehochanan!

       

      I fully agree with you that YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Life and Ministry was ALSO part of His Sacrifice for us, just as His Disciples' lives and ministries are.

       

      But, contrary to what you said, I believe that His Death (that we have to REMEMBER, at His Memorial, at Passover time, taking unleavened bread and wine, as symbols of HIS Body and Blood, as He instructed His Disciples to do, until He will come back) was ALSO part of His Sacrifice for us, just as His Apostles clearly Understood.

       

      Here below are some of their Inspired Writings about it:

       

      Yahchanan (John) 1:29 -

       29 The next day Yahchanan seeth YHWSU (Yahshua) coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of  The Mighty One, Which taketh away the sin of the world.

       36 And looking upon YHWSU (Yahshua) as He walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of The Mighty One!

       

      Yahchanan (John) 3:14-21 -

       14 And as Mosheh lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up:
       15 That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
       16 For The Mighty One so loved the world, that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life.
       17 For The Mighty One sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.
       18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of The Mighty One.
       19 And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil.
       20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the Light, neither cometh to the Light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
       21 But he that doeth Truth cometh to the Light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in The Mighty One.

       

      Romans 5:6-11 -

       6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time MashiYah (MessiYah) died for the ungodly.
       7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
       8 But The mighty One commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, MashiYah (MessiYah) died for us.
       9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
       10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to The Mighty One by the Death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be Saved by His Life.
       11 And not only so, but we also joy in The mighty One through our Master YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), by Whom we have now received the atonement.
        

      Romans 6:1-10 -

       1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
       2 The Mighty One forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
       3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), were baptized into His Death?
       4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as MashiYah (MessiYah) was raised up from the dead by the Glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
       5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His Death, we shall be also in the likeness of His Resurrection:
       6 Knowing this, that our old man is impaled with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
       7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
       8 Now if we be dead with MashiYah (MessiYah), we believe that we shall also live with Him:
       9 Knowing that MashiYah (MessiYah) being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
       10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto The Mighty One.
       

      1 Corinthians  5:7 -

       7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even MashiYah (MessiYah) our Passover is sacrificed for us:

       

      Hebrews 2:9, 13-18 -

       9 But we see YHWSU (Yahshua), Who was made a little lower than the malakim (angels) for the suffering of death, crowned with Glory and Honour; that he by the grace of The Mighty One should taste death for every man.

       13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which The Mighty One hath given Me.
       14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
       15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
       16 For verily He took not on Him the nature of malakim (angels); but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.
       17 Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to The Mighty One, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
       18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

       

      Hebrews 7:24-28 -

       24 But this man, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangeable Priesthood.
       25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto The Mighty One by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.
       26 For such an High Priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made Higher than the Heavens;
       27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this He did once, when He offered up Himself.
       28 For the Law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the Word of the oath, which was since the Law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

       

      Hebrews 9:11-28

       11 But MashiYah (MessiYah) being come an High Priest of righteous things to come, by a Greater and More Perfect Tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
       12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His Own blood, he entered in once into The Set Apart Place, having obtained Eternal Redemption for us.
       13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
       14 How much more shall the blood of MashiYah (MessiYah), Who through the eternal Spirit, offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
       15 And for this cause He is the Mediator of the New Testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the First Testament, they which are called might receive the promise of Eternal Inheritance.
       16 For where a Testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the Testator.
       17 For a Testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the Testator liveth.
       18 Whereupon neither the First Testament was dedicated without blood.
       19 For when Mosheh had spoken every precept to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
       20 Saying, This is the blood of the Testament which The Mighty One hath enjoined unto you.
       21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the Tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
       22 And almost all things are by the Law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
       23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the Heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
       24 For MashiYah (MessiYah) is not entered into The Set Apart Places made with hands, which are the figures of the True; but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of The Mighty One for us:
       25 Nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the High Priest entereth into the Set Apart Place every year with blood of others;
       26 For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
       27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
       28 So MashiYah (MessiYah) was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

       

      Hebrews 10:10-21

       10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
       11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
       12 But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of The Mighty One;
       13 From henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool.
       14 For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
       15 Whereof The Set Apart Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
       16 This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith YHWH (Yahweh), I will put My Laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
       17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
       18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
       19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into The Most Set Apart by the blood of YHWSU (Yahshua),
       20 By a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh;
       21 And having an High Priest over the House of The Mighty One

       

      1 Kepha (Peter) 1:18-21 -

       18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
       19 But with the precious blood of MashiYah (MessiYah), as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot:
       20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
       21 Who by Him do believe in The Mighty One, that raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him Glory; that your Belief and Trust might be in The Mighty One.
       

      Revelation 5:5-14 -

       5 And one of the Elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the Tribe of Jahdah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the Book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
       6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four Beasts, and in the midst of the Elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of The Mighty One sent forth into all the Earth.
       7 And He came and took the Book out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the Throne.
       8 And when He had taken the Book, the four Beasts and four and twenty Elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
       9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the Book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to The Mighty One by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
       10 And hast made us unto our Mighty One kings and priests: and we shall reign on the Earth.
       11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many malakim (angels) round about the Throne and the Beasts and the Elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
       12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive Power, and Riches, and Wisdom, and Strength, and Honour, and Glory, and Blessing.
       13 And every creature which is in Heaven, and on the Earth, and under the Earth, and such as are in the Sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and Honour, and Glory, and Power, be unto Him That sitteth upon the Throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
       14 And the four Beasts said, So It Be HalleluYah. And the four and twenty Elders fell down and worshipped Him That liveth for ever and ever.

       

      Revelation 7:14 -

       14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

       

      Revelation 12:10-11 -

       10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come Salvation, and Srength, and the Reign of The Mighty One, and the Power of His MashiYah (MessiYah): for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our The Mighty One day and night.
       11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

       

      Please, do NOT mix (just as the article, that you have forwarded, does) YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Death and Sacrifice with pagan human sacrifices, that are condemned in YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law.

       

      YHWSU (Yahshua) Himself said:

       

      Yahchanan (John) 15:12-17 -

       12 This is My Commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
       13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
       14 Ye are My friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
       15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his master doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you.
       16 Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My Name, He may give it you.
       17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

       

      Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

       

      That is what YHWSU (Yahshua) did for us, doing Father YHWH (Yahweh)'s Will and Love for us, Giving His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life!

      May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!

       

      True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TERUE MashiYah (MessiYah),

       

      Carlo Tognoni

       

      BYT YHWH

      The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua

      www.byt-yhwh.org

       

      =====================================================================

       

       

       

       



      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael <yehochanan@...>
      To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:34:39 PM
      Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?

      Shalom Everyone,

      In a previous post, I said the execution of Yeshua on the Cross did not atone for sin. Rather, it is his life and ministry which culminated in his execution that lead to our salvation. In addition, his ministry is to return Israel and the Gentiles to YHWH and His Torah. At that point, one is eligible for salvation--not before. So, Yeshua definitely atones for the sins of the repentant. He accomplished this via his ministry, not his execution.

      Please read the three links below. I pasted one for everyone to see. But make sure you read the other three before you respond to this post.

      The Atonement Explained (Yahshua and The Azazel Goat)

      Faith, Grace, and The Atonement (The Relationship)

      Can One man Die For Another?

       

      Shalom,

      Yehochanan

       

       

      The Atonement


      Can one man die for another?

      Did Messiah ?


      by D. J. Love, Minister, TSN

      (Upgraded 11-9-2001)






      There appears to be some that believe or at least question as to whether or not any man can die for another. Is this true? The verses in question are stated below along with their explanation( s). I must say, however, that no one should extract verses out of their intended context, and attempt to haphazardly apply them in a generalized fashion. To do so is not an indication of being led by Yahweh's Holy Spirit, but by the spirit of man ("legalism" and "self").


      In Psalms 49:1-13 (below), verse seven appears to say "no man" can be a redemption for the sins of another. And yet "In Context" Yahweh in His wisdom has "Qualified" this statement by verse six to say, "Those who trust in their wealth, and boast in the multitude of their riches --." In other words, no follower of "Self" can redeem another man from his sins. If you take the time to look up 1 John 5:14-17, you will see that the "Righteous" can pray for the sin of another "True Believing" brother, and the (True Believing) brother's sin will be forgiven him. That is all sin except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is irrelevant, because a "True Believer" can not blaspheme the Holy Spirit, as it is part of the requirement for being a "True Believer." Please understand; only selfless "Sacrificial Love" can redeem a man in the eyes of Yahweh, and this is what is meant by "Believing in Yahweh," as Yahshua, also, "Believed in Yahweh," which is the same thing as "Following in the Footsteps of Yahshua." Additionally, "Sacrificial Love" means to do without "Self." Yahshua died on the tree to emphasize what is meant by "Sacrificial Love".


      Psalms 49:1-13 (King David is a "True Believer")

      Hear this, all you peoples. Listen, all you inhabitants of the world,
      2 Both low and high, Rich and poor together.
      3 My mouth will speak words of wisdom. My heart shall utter understanding.
      4 I will incline my ear to a proverb. I will open my riddle on the harp.
      5 Why should I fear in the days of evil, When iniquity at my heels surrounds me?
      6 Those who trust in their wealth
      (instead of Yahweh), And boast in the multitude of their (self) riches --
      7 None of them
      (who trust in "Self") can by any means redeem his brother (friend or relative), Nor give Yahweh a ransom for him.
      8 For the redemption of their life is costly, No
      (worldly) payment is ever enough,
      9 That he should live on forever, That he should not see corruption.
      10 For he sees that wise men die; Likewise the fool and the senseless perish, And leave their wealth to others.
      11 Their inward thought is, that their houses endure forever, And their dwelling places to all generations. They call their lands after their own names.
      12 But man, despite his riches, doesn't endure. He is like the animals that perish.
      13 This is the destiny of those who are foolish, And of those who approve their sayings. Selah.



      In Deuteronomy 24:16 below, we see the very same practice of taking verses out of context. In this chapter Moses (Yahweh's servant) is trying to instill what it means "To (Sacrificially) Love Your Brother" into the hearts and minds of a stiff necked, self willed people. Here Moses is stating that no man, father or son is legally responsible for the debts or sins of another.
      Additionally, all who are considered to be unrighteous (those without Yahweh's Holy Spirit of Love or "Mind Set") have no sacrifice for sin. There are those of the "Calvinist" persuasion whose beliefs are in direct contradiction to this basic fact. Calvinism falsely teaches that we are totally responsible for the sins of our parents all the way back to Eden! The "Total Depravity" foundational belief of Calvinism - which most churches either directly or indirectly adhere to - states we can never be sinless because of the inherited sins of past generations. Obviously this is both wrong and incorrect!


      Deuteronomy 24:16 (remember that legalism is in opposition to sacrificial love)

      16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every
      (unrighteous) man shall be put to death for his own sin.



      In Jeremiah 31:30 below, we again see where the verse is taken out of context and without understanding. "Sour Grapes" describes a person who is extremely selfish or self-centered, and this term is used to emphasize the word iniquity, which is anything wicked, but is never righteousness. Therefore, a person who is selfish and without sacrificial love in their heart or mind (that person) cannot possibly have Yahweh's Holy Spirit of Love or Yahweh's Law of Love in his/her heart; this type of (self-centered) person will die in their sins.


      Jeremiah 31:29-33 (verse 30 is stated within the context of iniquity)

      29 In those days they shall say no more, The
      (self-centered) fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge (they become hateful after the example of their fathers).
      30 But (regardless) everyone shall die for his own iniquity: every man who eats the sour grapes (becomes self-centered), his teeth shall be set on edge (become hateful).
      31 Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new (another) covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
      32 not according to the
      (physical) covenant (marriage) that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke (divorced Yahweh by pagan idolatry), although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh.
      33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my (Spiritual) law (or Torah of Selfless, Sacrificial Love) in their inward parts, and in their heart (mind or pneuma) will I write it; and I (Yahweh, not Yahshua) will be their Yahweh, and they shall be my people (Yahshua is Yahweh's Proxy, Ambassador or Champion):



      Ezekiel 18:20 (perfectly states my previous points exactly)

      "The
      (self-centered) person who (selfishly) sins will die. The (a) son will not bear the punishment for the (a) father's iniquity (selfishness), nor will the (a) father bear the punishment for the (a) son's iniquity (selfishness); the righteousness of the (selfless) righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness (or selfishness) of the wicked will be upon himself."


      The word for "law" is Torah! So, here Yahweh is stating that He will place His "True Torah" (Spiritual Laws of Love) in the hearts of man. However, pagan christianity teaches that this Torah, which is actually the same Torah Yahweh has always had and gave to Moses, has been abolished, "Nailed on the Cross" or superseded by "Grace." Such teaching by pagan christianity is open rebellion against the eternal Torah that Yahweh clearly says is part of the covenant that "True Believers" are now under! Such teachings are blasphemy!

      And finally we have Proverbs 17:15, and I can't figure out how anyone could relate this to atonement for sin, when this verse is simply expressing Isaiah 5:20 in another form.

      Proverbs 17:15

      (same as Isaiah 5:20)
      15 He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the righteous, both of them alike are an abomination to Yahweh.


      Isaiah 5:20 (same as Proverbs 17:15)
      20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!



      Did Yahshua give himself to justify the wicked?
      Absolutely Not! That would be the belief of catholicism


      Yahshua gave himself to justify the "

      Righteous!"
      Selfless repentant sinners under Grace


      So, can one man give himself for another?

      Absolutely
      , if by "Giving Himself" we understand that it was not Messiah's death (if indeed he did die on the stake), but his example of selflessness that leads us unto salvation.


      1 Peter 2:21
      For even hereunto were ye called: because Messiah also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:


      But

      No Righteous Man, not even Messiah Yahshua, can ask for and bring about the forgiveness of selfish unrepentant sinners.






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      Click on the

      to access the Home Page

       

       

    • Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael
      Shalom Bro. Carlo, I am glad that you understand my point that the life and ministry of Yehoshua (including his execution) is the sacrifice for us. My words
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 1, 2008
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        Shalom Bro. Carlo,

        I am glad that you understand my point that the life and ministry of Yehoshua (including his execution) is the sacrifice for us. My words could easily be confused with the scoffers who have recently come in the room bashing New Testament teachings. Thank you for actually reading my words.

        I do not dispute at all that he died as a part of the Yah's plan for salvation. My only point is that I do not believe (what I consider to be) the Christian concept of Yehoshua somehow representing an altar sacrifice as atonement for sin. The execution of Yehoshua has absolutely nothing to do with the Torah practice of animal sacrifice. The allusions of Yeshua to being the Lamb/Pesach of Yah and the sacrificial lamb on Yom Kippur are purely allegorical. The only thing I want to show in this thread is evidence that the Messiah's complete life itself was the atonement and that Yah never required the Messiah to be killed as a sort of altar sacrifice. So, the focus is not whether or not the Messiah atoned for the sins (of true believers) of the world. The issue is whether his life was the atonement or was his death a sort of human altar sacrifice.

        Unlike the majority of the people you debate in this forum, I did actually read all of your verses that you painstaking posted in response to me. I hate when I take time to write a long post or email and someone replies without reading what I said or they would ignore my questions. So I have to keep repeating myself. I have seen this done to your over and over in this forum. And, like in the past, if I am incorrect, I will recant my opinion and give thanks to YHWH that He is opened my eyes to more of the Truth.

        Now, let us reason with the Scriptures.

        Keep in mind, I only offer evidence, not proof. For that, we would have to sit down together and study the Bible line for line. So, for now, we can just ask questions back and forth until we come to a conclusion (by the Will of YHWH).

        The verses you posted are of two types. The first type support what we both believe--that being--that his life and execution are part of his sacrifice. The other type gives examples where it appears that his literal execution is a type of human/animal sacrifice. This is what I dispute.

        First of all, his execution does not satisfy the Torah requirements for being an offering. His Offering was purely spiritual. The fact that his physical body was beaten and bruised excludes the Messiah from being a physical sacrifice. I will not quote the dozens of verses that clearly say that no sacrifice may be offered to Yah with a spot or blemish of any kind. And when we inspect the New Testament writings, we read where it make sure that we know that he satisfied the requirements on the spiritual level, not the physical. It says that he was spiritually without blemish (without sin). This satisfied that spiritual requirement of being without blemish.

        I Peter 1:19-21

        But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

        21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

        Now take note of the word as of in the verse. In the Greek text, we see the word hos and in the Aramaic Peshitta, we see the word domuma which both mean likeness and similitude. Hosea 12:10 says: I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. That verse explicitly says that his life (culminating with this death) directly corresponded spiritually to the offering of the Pesach lamb. In both cases, the pesach lamb did no harm in his life, was spotless, was executed for others benefit and did not put up any resistant to his own destruction. So, the New Testament uses this parallel to explain the sacrifice that Yehoshua made for mankind.

        The verses you quoted from the Gospels only call him the Lamb and do not directly imply that his death atones for anything. The only verses that say that say that his actual, physical death corresponds to the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifices are the writing of Paul and the Book of Hebrews. I just showed you that Peter explicitly says that this is allegorical (a similitude). I checked that Aramaic (my preference) and the Greek and they both say that Peter taught this. But what about the writings of Paul and Hebrews? Well, let read what Peter says about Paul's writings.

        2Peter 3:15-16 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

        I do not quote this to dispute your knowledge of Torah or faith in YHWH. My point is that Peter clearly states that Paul's style of writing cannot be taking literally in many places. You quoted several verses that says that Yehoshua's execution literally was similar to the animal sacrifices except that the Messiah's sacrifice was eternally effective while the animal sacrifice did not cleans people forever. But, we are warned by Peter to not take everything that Paul says literally. So, now I will inspect a few of the verse to show that Paul's verses are allegorical.

        So, let us look at one verse you posted as a prime example. This should be sufficient to show that the concept of death and blood and other such words are allegorical in the New Testament writings. The other verses can all be view allegorically. For example, when it says he offered himself up, it does not necessarily mean as a martyr. Paul says over and over that this means you lifestyle and deeds. Paul taught that being a living sacrifice is pleasing to God. So, there is much evidence in the New Testament that you a person does not have to die to be a sacrifice. And we also read in the Tanakh that Yah desires obedience, not sacrifice. I will not go to deep into that at this time. My point is that offering yourself up does not mean being killed. If you believe that, then we just have a different of opinion on definitions. So, I will just stick to the written word and see what happens.

        Romans 5:6-11

        6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time MashiYah (MessiYah) died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But The mighty One commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, MashiYah (MessiYah) died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to The Mighty One by the Death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be Saved by His Life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in The mighty One through our Master YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), by Whom we have now received the atonement.

        The references in the book of Romans and Hebrews carry the most force. The reason is because these verses make direct reference to the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice, and strong terms like blood and death. The reason such strong terms are used is to generate emotion in the mind of the reader--not to convey a literal account. So, what evidence do I have that the terms blood and death can be interpreted symbolically? It is because the Messiah himself used them that way.

        BLOOD

        Matthew 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this IS my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

        First, we see that he refers to HIS BLOOD in allegorical terms. MORE IMPORTANTLY, he is say that IT IS shed. He did not say that IT WILL BE shed. He said it IS shed. This is present tense, not future. Why did he says this in the present tense and not the future. ALLEGORICAL. Spirituality is not dependant on time. Here are few more examples of allegorical speak which, if taken literally, is an abomination.

        John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

        How does a person eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Messiah. He says right there that you must do it to have eternal life. Again, allegorical. If you look throughout the New Testament writings, the term flesh always means desire. When applied to the Messiah, it means the desire to please the Creator and when applied to men, it means the desire to please oneself. The term blood is also used in an allegorical sense as well. One of the ways it is used is to mean guilt.

        Next are some verses in which the death is used allegorically.

        DEATH

        Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

        Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

        Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

        In that verse, we see that the body can be dead even though the person is still living!

        Rom 14:8-9 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

        Here, we see that he died, resurrected and revived to be lord over the dead and living, not as an altar sacrifice for sin.

        The only verse that says that says that the Messiah died for our sins in any way in the next verse. As you can see, the issue is not his death being a vicarious atonement. Again, I will not go into the real meaning of the verse. My only point in this point is that his death has nothing to do with fulfilling the Torah ritual of sacrifice.

        1Corinthians 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

         

        In addition, we also see other allegorical terms associated with alter sacrifice like sweet odor. We only see that term with important altar sacrifices. Yet, in the New Testament, it is used allegorically.

        2Corinthians 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

        Philippians 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

        I will not attempt to go into the esoteric meaning of such concepts. My only focus in this thread is to show that those verses saying that his death is a sort of Pesach or Yom Kippur sacrifice is purely allegorical. The reason that it meaning those two High Holy days is to show that the sacrifice of the Messiah accomplished eternally what they rituals were set up to do year after year. This is why we read in the book of Ezekiel that those Holy Days will be keep only as a memorial, not to cleans us from sin.

        In conclusion, the purpose of this post is the give evidence that the reference to the Messiah being substitute animal sacrifice is purely allegorical. Human sacrifice is forbidden in Torah and the Messiah did manifest as a human. That fact alone excludes him from being an sacrificial offering in the same sense as the animals were. But, the book of Hebrews clearly substitutes Yehoshua (a human) for the sacrificial goat on Yom Kippur which is forbidden in Torah. In additional, even if we ignore that fact, his physical body was not fit to be a proper offering to HaShem because it was bruised.

        On the contrary, when viewed spiritually, we see a direct parallel of the life of the Messiah to the animal sacrifices. Due to the length of this post, I will not list the numerous parallels. The point is that the literary style of that time used graphic imagery and symbolism to general the appropriate emotional response in the reader. Those who studied under the Master, and later, Paul and the Apostles, were train in the meaning of these symbolisms. The masses can only interpret them literally because they do not know the symbolic meaning. Therefore, they read the Scriptures as if it is a history book because that is all they know. The massed read everything this way. They have never been trained to understand spiritual symbolism.

        The Master explained why he taught this way to his disciples. When he departed, his disciples taught their disciples in the same manner. So, when the New Testament was written, it was written only for the disciples of Yehoshua. Only the disciples can possibly understand the deep, esoteric teachings in the books. So, read exactly what Master Yehoshua says to his disciples.

        Mat 13:10-18And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them]. ¶ Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

        My point is that we may assume that the Scripture says what it says--that meaning--that they are literal and purely historical. But Yehoshua clearly states that the inner teachings are given using symbolic language that can only be understood by those devoted to him. So, I do understand how you can interpret the words in the New Testament as saying that the Messiah will died as a sort of sacrifice. But, the symbolic meaning has far greater implications. At that level, we are actually given the spiritual instructions to achieve the state of sinlessness that is described in I John 3. So, the masses with have to wait for the resurrection of the dead to shed their sinful nature. But, the Master actually laid down teachings for his devotees to achieve this state of perfection in this lifetime before we die.

        So keep in mind, my only point of contention is that the statements in the New Testament implying that the execution of Yehoshua is like an animal sacrifice is purely allegorical. This post is just an overview. Since this is an deep issue, it will be impossible to prove what I say conclusively. If you inspect the Scriptures, you will be able to understand the inner meaning at a basic level. However, to understand the exact meaning, it must come from one of the direct apostolic lineage with the only exception being if you get it directly from the Master himself like Paul did. But, just reading the Bible on our own will not work.

        From the very beginning, the Master taught his inner circle of disciples differently than the rest of the believers. This applies to this very subject. Therefore, not understanding this matter does not mean that we are not true disciples of the Master, it just means that we have are not privy to the inner teachings yet. So, the focus is now is on Torah observance and cleansing our hearts of self-centered desires. When he have spiritually matures, then we can be trusted with the inner teachings. But, just accepting Yehoshua as Messiah and keeping the religion given to Israel will not suffice to receive the High Wisdom.

        One last thing before I close. As I type this, I keep finding more information. So, I will wait to respond further if you have questions. But, one last thing I did want to bring to your attention is Ephesians 5--the whole chapter. Please read the chapter because what I say will not make sense unless you do and I do not want to make this post even longer by pasting it. When you read it, you see that Paul is describing the marriage relationship. But, in verse 32 he says this is allegorical and then applies it to physical marriage. So, his real message is spiritual and has nothing to do with this world. In that particular case, the allegory can be applied to a physical marriage. But there is no way I can reconcile KILLING A MESSIAH with the Torah.

        So, in your response, you will have to show me where killing a human as a sacrifice is allowed in the Torah. I am not yet able to do so and that is why I dropped the literally belief of the Messiah being a human sacrifice. In fact, it is that teaching that led me and others to reject the New Testament as a whole. It actually worked out because, for about two years, all I did was focus on Hebrew and the Tanakh which made me a better disciple of Yehoshua. But, when I discovered the allegorical nature of the Bible, then I was able reconcile that teachings. But, I verify ALL THINGS with the Torah. I put the Torah above all writings. If something contradicts Torah, then I reject it or look deeper into the matter. My opinion is based on my zeal to harmonize the New Testament with the Torah. So, please show me in the Torah where killing the Messiah is allowed.

        Shalom,

        Yehochanan

        P.S. I know this post is long. So I will summarize the points of focus for you to respond to. These are the points I made in my LONG post. These are the things that lead me to my opinion.

        I disagree with the literal interpretation given in the book of Hebrews that the Messiah is a sacrifice because:

        1. Human sacrifice is forbidden in Torah.

        2. Yehoshua's flesh was bruised making him an unfit sacrifice according to Torah law.

        I believe the following instead:

        1. Yehoshua fit all the Torah requirements of a spiritual sacrifice. For example, his purity corresponded to being without blemish.

        2. The New Testament teaching on the Yehoshua being an altar sacrifice is symbolic and only understood by the inner initiates. The masses of believers are only given the general understanding in parable form.

        THE END


        --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com, BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@...> wrote:

        >
        > Shalom Yehochanan!
        >  
        > I fully agree with you that YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Life and Ministry was ALSO part of His Sacrifice for us, just as His Disciples' lives and ministries are.
        >  
        > But, contrary to what you said, I believe that His Death (that we have to REMEMBER, at His Memorial, at Passover time, taking unleavened bread and wine, as symbols of HIS Body and Blood, as He instructed His Disciples to do, until He will come back) was ALSO part of His Sacrifice for us, just as His Apostles clearly Understood.
        >  
        > Here below are some of their Inspired Writings about it:
        >  
        > Yahchanan (John) 1:29 -
        >  29 The next day Yahchanan seeth YHWSU (Yahshua) coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of  The Mighty One, Which taketh away the sin of the world.
        >  36 And looking upon YHWSU (Yahshua) as He walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of The Mighty One!
        >  
        > Yahchanan (John) 3:14-21 -
        >  14 And as Mosheh lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up:
        >  15 That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
        >  16 For The Mighty One so loved the world, that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life.
        >  17 For The Mighty One sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.
        >  18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of The Mighty One.
        >  19 And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil.
        >  20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the Light, neither cometh to the Light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
        >  21 But he that doeth Truth cometh to the Light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in The Mighty One.
        >  
        > Romans 5:6-11 -
        >  6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time MashiYah (MessiYah) died for the ungodly.
        >  7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
        >  8 But The mighty One commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, MashiYah (MessiYah) died for us.
        >  9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
        >  10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to The Mighty One by the Death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be Saved by His Life.
        >  11 And not only so, but we also joy in The mighty One through our Master YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), by Whom we have now received the atonement.
        >   
        > Romans 6:1-10 -
        >  1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
        >  2 The Mighty One forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
        >  3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), were baptized into His Death?
        >  4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as MashiYah (MessiYah) was raised up from the dead by the Glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
        >  5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His Death, we shall be also in the likeness of His Resurrection:
        >  6 Knowing this, that our old man is impaled with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
        >  7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
        >  8 Now if we be dead with MashiYah (MessiYah), we believe that we shall also live with Him:
        >  9 Knowing that MashiYah (MessiYah) being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
        >  10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto The Mighty One.
        >  
        > 1 Corinthians  5:7 -
        >  7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even MashiYah (MessiYah) our Passover is sacrificed for us:
        >  
        > Hebrews 2:9, 13-18 -
        >  9 But we see YHWSU (Yahshua), Who was made a little lower than the malakim (angels) for the suffering of death, crowned with Glory and Honour; that he by the grace of The Mighty One should taste death for every man.
        >  13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which The Mighty One hath given Me.
        >  14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
        >  15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
        >  16 For verily He took not on Him the nature of malakim (angels); but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.
        >  17 Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to The Mighty One, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
        >  18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
        >  
        > Hebrews 7:24-28 -
        >  24 But this man, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangeable Priesthood.
        >  25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto The Mighty One by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.
        >  26 For such an High Priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made Higher than the Heavens;
        >  27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this He did once, when He offered up Himself.
        >  28 For the Law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the Word of the oath, which was since the Law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
        >  
        > Hebrews 9:11-28 - 
        >  11 But MashiYah (MessiYah) being come an High Priest of righteous things to come, by a Greater and More Perfect Tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
        >  12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His Own blood, he entered in once into The Set Apart Place, having obtained Eternal Redemption for us.
        >  13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
        >  14 How much more shall the blood of MashiYah (MessiYah), Who through the eternal Spirit, offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
        >  15 And for this cause He is the Mediator of the New Testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the First Testament, they which are called might receive the promise of Eternal Inheritance.
        >  16 For where a Testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the Testator.
        >  17 For a Testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the Testator liveth.
        >  18 Whereupon neither the First Testament was dedicated without blood.
        >  19 For when Mosheh had spoken every precept to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
        >  20 Saying, This is the blood of the Testament which The Mighty One hath enjoined unto you.
        >  21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the Tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
        >  22 And almost all things are by the Law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
        >  23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the Heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
        >  24 For MashiYah (MessiYah) is not entered into The Set Apart Places made with hands, which are the figures of the True; but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of The Mighty One for us:
        >  25 Nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the High Priest entereth into the Set Apart Place every year with blood of others;
        >  26 For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
        >  27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
        >  28 So MashiYah (MessiYah) was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
        >  
        > Hebrews 10:10-21 - 
        >  10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
        >  11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
        >  12 But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of The Mighty One;
        >  13 From henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool.
        >  14 For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
        >  15 Whereof The Set Apart Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
        >  16 This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith YHWH (Yahweh), I will put My Laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
        >  17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
        >  18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
        >  19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into The Most Set Apart by the blood of YHWSU (Yahshua),
        >  20 By a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh;
        >  21 And having an High Priest over the House of The Mighty One
        >  
        > 1 Kepha (Peter) 1:18-21 -
        >  18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
        >  19 But with the precious blood of MashiYah (MessiYah), as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot:
        >  20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
        >  21 Who by Him do believe in The Mighty One, that raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him Glory; that your Belief and Trust might be in The Mighty One..
        >  
        > Revelation 5:5-14 -
        >  5 And one of the Elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the Tribe of Jahdah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the Book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
        >  6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four Beasts, and in the midst of the Elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of The Mighty One sent forth into all the Earth.
        >  7 And He came and took the Book out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the Throne.
        >  8 And when He had taken the Book, the four Beasts and four and twenty Elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
        >  9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the Book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to The Mighty One by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
        >  10 And hast made us unto our Mighty One kings and priests: and we shall reign on the Earth.
        >  11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many malakim (angels) round about the Throne and the Beasts and the Elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
        >  12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive Power, and Riches, and Wisdom, and Strength, and Honour, and Glory, and Blessing.
        >  13 And every creature which is in Heaven, and on the Earth, and under the Earth, and such as are in the Sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and Honour, and Glory, and Power, be unto Him That sitteth upon the Throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
        >  14 And the four Beasts said, So It Be HalleluYah. And the four and twenty Elders fell down and worshipped Him That liveth for ever and ever.
        >  
        > Revelation 7:14 -
        >  14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
        >  
        > Revelation 12:10-11 -
        >  10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come Salvation, and Srength, and the Reign of The Mighty One, and the Power of His MashiYah (MessiYah): for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our The Mighty One day and night.
        >  11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
        >  
        > Please, do NOT mix (just as the article, that you have forwarded, does) YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Death and Sacrifice with pagan human sacrifices, that are condemned in YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law.
        >  
        > YHWSU (Yahshua) Himself said:
        >  
        > Yahchanan (John) 15:12-17 -
        >  12 This is My Commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
        >  13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
        >  14 Ye are My friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
        >  15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his master doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you.
        >  16 Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My Name, He may give it you.
        >  17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
        >  
        > Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
        >  
        > That is what YHWSU (Yahshua) did for us, doing Father YHWH (Yahweh)'s Will and Love for us, Giving His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life!
        >
        > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
        >  
        > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TERUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
        >  
        > Carlo Tognoni
        >  
        > BYT YHWH
        > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
        > www.byt-yhwh.org
        >  
        > =====================================================================
        >  
        >  
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael yehochanan@...
        > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:34:39 PM
        > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?
        >
        >
        > Shalom Everyone,
        > In a previous post, I said the execution of Yeshua on the Cross did not atone for sin. Rather, it is his life and ministry which culminated in his execution that lead to our salvation. In addition, his ministry is to return Israel and the Gentiles to YHWH and His Torah. At that point, one is eligible for salvation--not before. So, Yeshua definitely atones for the sins of the repentant. He accomplished this via his ministry, not his execution.
        > Please read the three links below. I pasted one for everyone to see. But make sure you read the other three before you respond to this post. 
        > Shalom,
        > Yehochanan
        >  
        >  The Atonement
        >
        > Can one man die for another?
        >
        > Did Messiah ?
        >
        >
        > by D. J. Love, Minister, TSN
        >
        > (Upgraded 11-9-2001)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > There appears to be some that believe or at least question as to whether or not any man can die for another. Is this true? The verses in question are stated below along with their explanation( s). I must say, however, that no one should extract verses out of their intended context, and attempt to haphazardly apply them in a generalized fashion. To do so is not an indication of being led by Yahweh's Holy Spirit, but by the spirit of man ("legalism" and "self").(True Believing)brother's sin will be forgiven him. That is all sin except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is irrelevant, because a "True Believer" can not blaspheme the Holy Spirit, as it is part of the requirement for being a "True Believer." Please understand; only selfless "Sacrificial Love" can redeem a man in the eyes of Yahweh, and this is what is meant by "Believing in Yahweh," as Yahshua, also, "Believed in Yahweh," which is the same thing as "Following in the Footsteps of Yahshua."
        > Additionally, "Sacrificial Love" means to do without Yahshua died on the tree to emphasize what is meant by ""Self."Sacrificial Love".
        > Psalms 49:1-13(King David is a "True Believer")
        >
        > Hear this, all you peoples. Listen, all you inhabitants of the world,
        > 2 Both low and high, Rich and poor together.
        > 3 My mouth will speak words of wisdom. My heart shall utter understanding.
        > 4 I will incline my ear to a proverb. I will open my riddle on the harp.
        > 5 Why should I fear in the days of evil, When iniquity at my heels surrounds me?
        > 6 Those who trust in their wealth (instead of Yahweh), And boast in the multitude of their (self)riches --
        > 7 None of them (who trust in "Self")can by any means redeem his brother (friend or relative), Nor give Yahweh a ransom for him.
        > 8 For the redemption of their life is costly, No (worldly)payment is ever enough,
        > 9 That he should live on forever, That he should not see corruption.
        > 10 For he sees that wise men die; Likewise the fool and the senseless perish, And leave their wealth to others.
        > 11 Their inward thought is, that their houses endure forever, And their dwelling places to all generations. They call their lands after their own names.
        > 12 But man, despite his riches, doesn't endure. He is like the animals that perish.
        > 13 This is the destiny of those who are foolish, And of those who approve their sayings. Selah.
        >
        >
        > (Yahweh's servant)is trying to instill what it means "To (Sacrificially)Love Your Brotherself willed(those without Yahweh's Holy Spirit of Love or "Mind Set")have no sacrifice for sin. There are those of the "Calvinist" persuasion whose beliefs are in direct contradiction to this basic fact. Calvinism falsely teaches that we are totally responsible for the sins of our parents all the way back to Eden! The "Total Depravity" foundational belief of Calvinism - which most churches either directly or indirectly adhere to - states we can never be sinless because of the inherited sins of past generations. Obviously this is both wrong and incorrect!
        > Deuteronomy 24:16(remember that legalism is in opposition to sacrificial love)
        >
        > 16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every (unrighteous)man shall be put to death for his own sin.
        >
        > In Jeremiah 31:30 below, we again see where the verse is taken out of context and without understanding. "Sour Grapes" describes a person who is extremely selfish or self-centered, and this term is used to emphasize the word iniquity, which is anything wicked, but is never righteousness. Therefore, a person who is selfish and without sacrificial love in their heart or mind (that person)cannot possibly have Yahweh's Holy Spirit of Love or Yahweh's Law of Love in his/her heart; this type of (self-centered)person will die in their sins.
        > " into the hearts and minds of a stiff necked, people. Here Moses is stating that no man, father or son is legally responsible for the debts or sins of another.
        > Additionally, all who are considered to be unrighteous
        >
        >
        > In Psalms 49:1-13 (below), verse seven appears to say "no man" can be a redemption for the sins of another. And yet "In Context" Yahweh in His wisdom has "Qualified" this statement by verse six to say, "Those who trust in their wealth, and boast in the multitude of their riches --." In other words, no follower of "Self" can redeem another man from his sins. If you take the time to look up 1 John 5:14-17, you will see that the "Righteous" can pray for the sin of another "True Believing" brother, and the
        >
        >
        > In Deuteronomy 24:16 below, we see the very same practice of taking verses out of context. In this chapter Moses
        >
        >
        > Jeremiah 31:29-33(verse 30 is stated within the context of iniquity)
        >
        > 29 In those days they shall say no more, The (self-centered)fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge (they become hateful after the example of their fathers).(regardless)everyone shall die for his own iniquity:(becomes self-centered), his teeth shall be set on edge (become hateful).(another)covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
        > 32 not according to the (physical)covenant (marriage)that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke (divorced Yahweh by pagan idolatry),(Spiritual)law (or Torah of Selfless, Sacrificial Love)in their inward parts, and in their heart (mind or pneuma)will I write it; and I (Yahweh, not Yahshua)will be their Yahweh, and they shall be my people (Yahshua is Yahweh's Proxy, Ambassador or Champion):Ezekiel 18:20(perfectly states my previous points exactly)
        >
        > "The (self-centered)person who (selfishly)sins will die. The (a) son will not bear the punishment for the (a) father's iniquity (selfishness),(selfishness);(selfless)righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness (or selfishness) of the wicked will be upon himself."
        >
        > (Spiritual Laws of Love)in the hearts of man. However, pagan christianity teaches that this Torah, which is actually the same Torah Yahweh has always had and gave to Moses, has been abolished, "Nailed on the Cross" or superseded by "Grace." Such teaching by pagan christianity is open rebellion against the eternal Torah that Yahweh clearly says is part of the covenant that "True Believers" are now under! Such teachings are blasphemy!
        >
        > And finally we have Proverbs 17:15, and I can't figure out how anyone could relate this to atonement for sin, when this verse is simply expressing Isaiah 5:20 in another form.
        > Proverbs 17:15(same as Isaiah 5:20)
        > 15 He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the righteous, both of them alike are an abomination to Yahweh.
        >
        >
        > Isaiah 5:20 (same as Proverbs 17:15)
        > 20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
        > Did Yahshua give himself to justify the wicked?
        > Absolutely Not!That would be the belief of catholicism
        >
        >
        > Yahshua gave himself to justify the "Righteous!"
        > Selfless repentant sinners under Grace
        >
        >
        > So, can one man give himself for another?
        >
        > Absolutely, if by "Giving Himself" we understand that it was not Messiah's death (if indeed he did die on the stake), but his example of selflessness that leads us unto salvation.
        >
        >
        > 1 Peter 2:21
        > For even hereunto were ye called: because Messiah also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
        > But
        >
        >
        > No Righteous Man, not even Messiah Yahshua, can ask for and bring about the forgiveness of selfish unrepentant sinners.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > If you arrived here from a search engine or an external link
        > Click on the to access the Home Page
        >  
        >  
        > the righteousness of the nor will the (a) father bear the punishment for the (a) son's iniquity
        >
        >
        >
        > although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh.
        > 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my
        > 31 Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new every man who eats the sour grapes
        > 30 But
        >
        > The word for "law" is Torah! So, here Yahweh is stating that He will place His "True Torah"
        >
        > The Atonement Explained(Yahshua and The Azazel Goat)
        >
        > Faith, Grace, and The Atonement(The Relationship)
        >
        > Can One man Die For Another?
        >

      • BYT YHWH
        Shalom Yehochanan! Thank you very much for your kind reply! There is no whatsoever doubt, and I fully Agree about Spiritual, Symbolic, Allegorical, Typical way
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 1, 2008
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          Shalom Yehochanan!
           
          Thank you very much for your kind reply!
           
          There is no whatsoever doubt, and I fully Agree about Spiritual, Symbolic, Allegorical, Typical way of speaking ALSO used in reference to the Sacrifice of YHWSU (Yahshua), as you have well explained.
           
          But, as you know very well, ANY Spiritual Pattern has a corrispondent physical pattern.
           
          Let's see if The Old Testament spoke and prophetised about The MashiYah (MessiYah) suffering and dying of a Sacrifical Death, AS a Passover Lamb, and AS an Offering and Atonement for the sin of many.
           
          ISAYAH CHAPTER 53
           1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of YHWH (Yahweh) revealed?
          (Please, check: Yahchanan / Johh 12:38; Romans 1:16; 10:16; 1 Corinthians 1:18)
           2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: He hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
          (Please, check: Yachanan / John Mark 9:12)
           3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from Him; He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
          (Please, check: Yahchanan / John 1:10-11; Hebrews 4:15)
           4 Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of The Mighty One, and afflicted.
          (Please, check: Mattithyah / Matthew 8:17; Hebrews 9:28; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:24)
           5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.
          (Please, check: Romans 4:25; 1 Corinthians 5:13; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:24; 3:18)
           6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to His own way; and YHWH (Yahweh) hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
          (Please, check: 1 Kepha / Peter 2:25)
           7 He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not his mouth: He is brought as a Lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth.
          (Please, check: Mattithyah / Matthew 26:63; 27:12,14; Yahchanan / John Mark 14:61; 15:5; Acts 8:32; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:23)
           8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare His generation? For He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of My People was He stricken.
          (Please, check Daniel 9:26)
           9 And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His Death; because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.
          (Please, check: Mattithyah / Matthew 27:57-58,60; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:22; 1 Yahchanan / John 3:5)
           10 Yet it pleased YHWH (Yahweh) to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief: when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His Seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of YHWH (Yahweh) shall prosper in His hand.
          (Please, check: Romans 6:9; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Ephesians 1:5,9; 2 Thessalonians 1:11; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:24)
           11 He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied: by His knowledge shall my Righteous Servant justify many; for He shall bear their iniquities.
          (Please, check: Yahchanan / John 17:3; Romans 5:15-19; 2 Kepha / Peter 1:3; 1 Yahchanan / John 2:1)
           12 Therefore will I divide Him a portion with the Great, and He shall divide the spoil with the Strong; because He hath poured out His soul unto death: and He was numbered with the transgressors; and He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
          (Please, check: Yahchanan / John Mark 15:28; Luke 22:37; 23:34; Romans 8:34; Philippians 2:9; Colossians 2:15; Hebrews 7:25; 9:24; 1 Yahchanan / John 2:1)

          May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
           
          True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
           
          Carlo Tognoni
           
          BYT YHWH
          The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
           
          =====================================================================
           
           
           

           
          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael <yehochanan@...>
          To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 10:53:53 PM
          Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?

          Shalom Bro. Carlo,

          I am glad that you understand my point that the life and ministry of Yehoshua (including his execution) is the sacrifice for us. My words could easily be confused with the scoffers who have recently come in the room bashing New Testament teachings. Thank you for actually reading my words.

          I do not dispute at all that he died as a part of the Yah's plan for salvation. My only point is that I do not believe (what I consider to be) the Christian concept of Yehoshua somehow representing an altar sacrifice as atonement for sin. The execution of Yehoshua has absolutely nothing to do with the Torah practice of animal sacrifice. The allusions of Yeshua to being the Lamb/Pesach of Yah and the sacrificial lamb on Yom Kippur are purely allegorical. The only thing I want to show in this thread is evidence that the Messiah's complete life itself was the atonement and that Yah never required the Messiah to be killed as a sort of altar sacrifice. So, the focus is not whether or not the Messiah atoned for the sins (of true believers) of the world. The issue is whether his life was the atonement or was his death a sort of human altar sacrifice.

          Unlike the majority of the people you debate in this forum, I did actually read all of your verses that you painstaking posted in response to me. I hate when I take time to write a long post or email and someone replies without reading what I said or they would ignore my questions. So I have to keep repeating myself. I have seen this done to your over and over in this forum. And, like in the past, if I am incorrect, I will recant my opinion and give thanks to YHWH that He is opened my eyes to more of the Truth.

          Now, let us reason with the Scriptures.

          Keep in mind, I only offer evidence, not proof. For that, we would have to sit down together and study the Bible line for line. So, for now, we can just ask questions back and forth until we come to a conclusion (by the Will of YHWH).

          The verses you posted are of two types. The first type support what we both believe--that being--that his life and execution are part of his sacrifice. The other type gives examples where it appears that his literal execution is a type of human/animal sacrifice. This is what I dispute.

          First of all, his execution does not satisfy the Torah requirements for being an offering. His Offering was purely spiritual. The fact that his physical body was beaten and bruised excludes the Messiah from being a physical sacrifice. I will not quote the dozens of verses that clearly say that no sacrifice may be offered to Yah with a spot or blemish of any kind. And when we inspect the New Testament writings, we read where it make sure that we know that he satisfied the requirements on the spiritual level, not the physical. It says that he was spiritually without blemish (without sin). This satisfied that spiritual requirement of being without blemish.

          I Peter 1:19-21

          But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

          21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

          Now take note of the word as of in the verse. In the Greek text, we see the word hos and in the Aramaic Peshitta, we see the word domuma which both mean likeness and similitude. Hosea 12:10 says: I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. That verse explicitly says that his life (culminating with this death) directly corresponded spiritually to the offering of the Pesach lamb. In both cases, the pesach lamb did no harm in his life, was spotless, was executed for others benefit and did not put up any resistant to his own destruction. So, the New Testament uses this parallel to explain the sacrifice that Yehoshua made for mankind.

          The verses you quoted from the Gospels only call him the Lamb and do not directly imply that his death atones for anything. The only verses that say that say that his actual, physical death corresponds to the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifices are the writing of Paul and the Book of Hebrews. I just showed you that Peter explicitly says that this is allegorical (a similitude). I checked that Aramaic (my preference) and the Greek and they both say that Peter taught this. But what about the writings of Paul and Hebrews? Well, let read what Peter says about Paul's writings.

          2Peter 3:15-16 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

          I do not quote this to dispute your knowledge of Torah or faith in YHWH. My point is that Peter clearly states that Paul's style of writing cannot be taking literally in many places. You quoted several verses that says that Yehoshua's execution literally was similar to the animal sacrifices except that the Messiah's sacrifice was eternally effective while the animal sacrifice did not cleans people forever. But, we are warned by Peter to not take everything that Paul says literally. So, now I will inspect a few of the verse to show that Paul's verses are allegorical.

          So, let us look at one verse you posted as a prime example. This should be sufficient to show that the concept of death and blood and other such words are allegorical in the New Testament writings. The other verses can all be view allegorically. For example, when it says he offered himself up, it does not necessarily mean as a martyr. Paul says over and over that this means you lifestyle and deeds. Paul taught that being a living sacrifice is pleasing to God. So, there is much evidence in the New Testament that you a person does not have to die to be a sacrifice. And we also read in the Tanakh that Yah desires obedience, not sacrifice. I will not go to deep into that at this time. My point is that offering yourself up does not mean being killed. If you believe that, then we just have a different of opinion on definitions. So, I will just stick to the written word and see what happens.

          Romans 5:6-11

          6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time MashiYah (MessiYah) died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But The mighty One commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, MashiYah (MessiYah) died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to The Mighty One by the Death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be Saved by His Life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in The mighty One through our Master YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), by Whom we have now received the atonement.

          The references in the book of Romans and Hebrews carry the most force. The reason is because these verses make direct reference to the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice, and strong terms like blood and death. The reason such strong terms are used is to generate emotion in the mind of the reader--not to convey a literal account. So, what evidence do I have that the terms blood and death can be interpreted symbolically? It is because the Messiah himself used them that way.

          BLOOD

          Matthew 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this IS my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

          First, we see that he refers to HIS BLOOD in allegorical terms. MORE IMPORTANTLY, he is say that IT IS shed. He did not say that IT WILL BE shed. He said it IS shed. This is present tense, not future. Why did he says this in the present tense and not the future. ALLEGORICAL. Spirituality is not dependant on time. Here are few more examples of allegorical speak which, if taken literally, is an abomination.

          John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

          How does a person eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Messiah. He says right there that you must do it to have eternal life. Again, allegorical. If you look throughout the New Testament writings, the term flesh always means desire. When applied to the Messiah, it means the desire to please the Creator and when applied to men, it means the desire to please oneself. The term blood is also used in an allegorical sense as well. One of the ways it is used is to mean guilt.

          Next are some verses in which the death is used allegorically.

          DEATH

          Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

          Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

          Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

          In that verse, we see that the body can be dead even though the person is still living!

          Rom 14:8-9 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

          Here, we see that he died, resurrected and revived to be lord over the dead and living, not as an altar sacrifice for sin.

          The only verse that says that says that the Messiah died for our sins in any way in the next verse. As you can see, the issue is not his death being a vicarious atonement. Again, I will not go into the real meaning of the verse. My only point in this point is that his death has nothing to do with fulfilling the Torah ritual of sacrifice.

          1Corinthians 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

           

          In addition, we also see other allegorical terms associated with alter sacrifice like sweet odor. We only see that term with important altar sacrifices. Yet, in the New Testament, it is used allegorically.

          2Corinthians 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

          Philippians 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

          I will not attempt to go into the esoteric meaning of such concepts. My only focus in this thread is to show that those verses saying that his death is a sort of Pesach or Yom Kippur sacrifice is purely allegorical. The reason that it meaning those two High Holy days is to show that the sacrifice of the Messiah accomplished eternally what they rituals were set up to do year after year. This is why we read in the book of Ezekiel that those Holy Days will be keep only as a memorial, not to cleans us from sin.

          In conclusion, the purpose of this post is the give evidence that the reference to the Messiah being substitute animal sacrifice is purely allegorical. Human sacrifice is forbidden in Torah and the Messiah did manifest as a human. That fact alone excludes him from being an sacrificial offering in the same sense as the animals were. But, the book of Hebrews clearly substitutes Yehoshua (a human) for the sacrificial goat on Yom Kippur which is forbidden in Torah. In additional, even if we ignore that fact, his physical body was not fit to be a proper offering to HaShem because it was bruised.

          On the contrary, when viewed spiritually, we see a direct parallel of the life of the Messiah to the animal sacrifices. Due to the length of this post, I will not list the numerous parallels. The point is that the literary style of that time used graphic imagery and symbolism to general the appropriate emotional response in the reader. Those who studied under the Master, and later, Paul and the Apostles, were train in the meaning of these symbolisms. The masses can only interpret them literally because they do not know the symbolic meaning. Therefore, they read the Scriptures as if it is a history book because that is all they know. The massed read everything this way. They have never been trained to understand spiritual symbolism.

          The Master explained why he taught this way to his disciples. When he departed, his disciples taught their disciples in the same manner. So, when the New Testament was written, it was written only for the disciples of Yehoshua.. Only the disciples can possibly understand the deep, esoteric teachings in the books. So, read exactly what Master Yehoshua says to his disciples.

          Mat 13:10-18And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them]. ¶ Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower..

          My point is that we may assume that the Scripture says what it says--that meaning--that they are literal and purely historical. But Yehoshua clearly states that the inner teachings are given using symbolic language that can only be understood by those devoted to him. So, I do understand how you can interpret the words in the New Testament as saying that the Messiah will died as a sort of sacrifice. But, the symbolic meaning has far greater implications. At that level, we are actually given the spiritual instructions to achieve the state of sinlessness that is described in I John 3. So, the masses with have to wait for the resurrection of the dead to shed their sinful nature. But, the Master actually laid down teachings for his devotees to achieve this state of perfection in this lifetime before we die.

          So keep in mind, my only point of contention is that the statements in the New Testament implying that the execution of Yehoshua is like an animal sacrifice is purely allegorical. This post is just an overview. Since this is an deep issue, it will be impossible to prove what I say conclusively. If you inspect the Scriptures, you will be able to understand the inner meaning at a basic level. However, to understand the exact meaning, it must come from one of the direct apostolic lineage with the only exception being if you get it directly from the Master himself like Paul did. But, just reading the Bible on our own will not work.

          From the very beginning, the Master taught his inner circle of disciples differently than the rest of the believers. This applies to this very subject. Therefore, not understanding this matter does not mean that we are not true disciples of the Master, it just means that we have are not privy to the inner teachings yet. So, the focus is now is on Torah observance and cleansing our hearts of self-centered desires. When he have spiritually matures, then we can be trusted with the inner teachings. But, just accepting Yehoshua as Messiah and keeping the religion given to Israel will not suffice to receive the High Wisdom.

          One last thing before I close. As I type this, I keep finding more information. So, I will wait to respond further if you have questions. But, one last thing I did want to bring to your attention is Ephesians 5--the whole chapter. Please read the chapter because what I say will not make sense unless you do and I do not want to make this post even longer by pasting it. When you read it, you see that Paul is describing the marriage relationship. But, in verse 32 he says this is allegorical and then applies it to physical marriage. So, his real message is spiritual and has nothing to do with this world. In that particular case, the allegory can be applied to a physical marriage. But there is no way I can reconcile KILLING A MESSIAH with the Torah.

          So, in your response, you will have to show me where killing a human as a sacrifice is allowed in the Torah. I am not yet able to do so and that is why I dropped the literally belief of the Messiah being a human sacrifice. In fact, it is that teaching that led me and others to reject the New Testament as a whole. It actually worked out because, for about two years, all I did was focus on Hebrew and the Tanakh which made me a better disciple of Yehoshua. But, when I discovered the allegorical nature of the Bible, then I was able reconcile that teachings. But, I verify ALL THINGS with the Torah. I put the Torah above all writings. If something contradicts Torah, then I reject it or look deeper into the matter. My opinion is based on my zeal to harmonize the New Testament with the Torah. So, please show me in the Torah where killing the Messiah is allowed.

          Shalom,

          Yehochanan

          P.S. I know this post is long. So I will summarize the points of focus for you to respond to. These are the points I made in my LONG post. These are the things that lead me to my opinion.

          I disagree with the literal interpretation given in the book of Hebrews that the Messiah is a sacrifice because:

          1. Human sacrifice is forbidden in Torah.

          2. Yehoshua's flesh was bruised making him an unfit sacrifice according to Torah law.

          I believe the following instead:

          1. Yehoshua fit all the Torah requirements of a spiritual sacrifice. For example, his purity corresponded to being without blemish.

          2. The New Testament teaching on the Yehoshua being an altar sacrifice is symbolic and only understood by the inner initiates. The masses of believers are only given the general understanding in parable form.

          THE END


          --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@....> wrote:

          >
          > Shalom Yehochanan!
          >  
          > I fully agree with you that YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Life and Ministry was ALSO part of His Sacrifice for us, just as His Disciples' lives and ministries are.
          >  
          > But, contrary to what you said, I believe that His Death (that we have to REMEMBER, at His Memorial, at Passover time, taking unleavened bread and wine, as symbols of HIS Body and Blood, as He instructed His Disciples to do, until He will come back) was ALSO part of His Sacrifice for us, just as His Apostles clearly Understood.
          >  
          > Here below are some of their Inspired Writings about it:
          >  
          > Yahchanan (John) 1:29 -
          >  29 The next day Yahchanan seeth YHWSU (Yahshua) coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of  The
          Mighty One, Which taketh away the sin of the world.
          >  36 And looking upon YHWSU (Yahshua) as He walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of The Mighty One!
          >  
          > Yahchanan (John) 3:14-21 -
          >  14 And as Mosheh lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up:
          >  15 That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
          >  16 For The Mighty One so loved the world, that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life.
          >  17 For The Mighty One sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.
          >  18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of The Mighty One.
          >  19
          And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil.
          >  20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the Light, neither cometh to the Light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
          >  21 But he that doeth Truth cometh to the Light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in The Mighty One.
          >  
          > Romans 5:6-11 -
          >  6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time MashiYah (MessiYah) died for the ungodly.
          >  7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
          >  8 But The mighty One commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, MashiYah (MessiYah) died for us.
          >  9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
          >
           10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to The Mighty One by the Death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be Saved by His Life.
          >  11 And not only so, but we also joy in The mighty One through our Master YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), by Whom we have now received the atonement.
          >   
          > Romans 6:1-10 -
          >  1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
          >  2 The Mighty One forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
          >  3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), were baptized into His Death?
          >  4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as MashiYah (MessiYah) was raised up from the dead by the Glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of
          life.
          >  5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His Death, we shall be also in the likeness of His Resurrection:
          >  6 Knowing this, that our old man is impaled with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
          >  7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
          >  8 Now if we be dead with MashiYah (MessiYah), we believe that we shall also live with Him:
          >  9 Knowing that MashiYah (MessiYah) being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
          >  10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto The Mighty One.
          >  
          > 1 Corinthians  5:7 -
          >  7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even MashiYah (MessiYah) our Passover is sacrificed for us:
          >  
          > Hebrews
          2:9, 13-18 -
          >  9 But we see YHWSU (Yahshua), Who was made a little lower than the malakim (angels) for the suffering of death, crowned with Glory and Honour; that he by the grace of The Mighty One should taste death for every man.
          >  13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which The Mighty One hath given Me.
          >  14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
          >  15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
          >  16 For verily He took not on Him the nature of malakim (angels); but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.
          >  17 Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful
          and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to The Mighty One, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
          >  18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
          >  
          > Hebrews 7:24-28 -
          >  24 But this man, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangeable Priesthood.
          >  25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto The Mighty One by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.
          >  26 For such an High Priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made Higher than the Heavens;
          >  27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this He did once, when He offered up Himself.
          >  28 For the Law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the Word of the
          oath, which was since the Law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
          >  
          > Hebrews 9:11-28 - 
          >  11 But MashiYah (MessiYah) being come an High Priest of righteous things to come, by a Greater and More Perfect Tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
          >  12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His Own blood, he entered in once into The Set Apart Place, having obtained Eternal Redemption for us.
          >  13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
          >  14 How much more shall the blood of MashiYah (MessiYah), Who through the eternal Spirit, offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
          >  15 And for this cause He is the Mediator of the New Testament, that by means of
          death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the First Testament, they which are called might receive the promise of Eternal Inheritance.
          >  16 For where a Testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the Testator.
          >  17 For a Testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the Testator liveth.
          >  18 Whereupon neither the First Testament was dedicated without blood.
          >  19 For when Mosheh had spoken every precept to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
          >  20 Saying, This is the blood of the Testament which The Mighty One hath enjoined unto you.
          >  21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the Tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
          >  22 And almost all things
          are by the Law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
          >  23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the Heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
          >  24 For MashiYah (MessiYah) is not entered into The Set Apart Places made with hands, which are the figures of the True; but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of The Mighty One for us:
          >  25 Nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the High Priest entereth into the Set Apart Place every year with blood of others;
          >  26 For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
          >  27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
          >  28
          So MashiYah (MessiYah) was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
          >  
          > Hebrews 10:10-21 - 
          >  10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
          >  11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
          >  12 But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of The Mighty One;
          >  13 From henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool.
          >  14 For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
          >  15 Whereof The Set Apart Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
          >  16 This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those
          days, saith YHWH (Yahweh), I will put My Laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
          >  17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
          >  18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
          >  19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into The Most Set Apart by the blood of YHWSU (Yahshua),
          >  20 By a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh;
          >  21 And having an High Priest over the House of The Mighty One
          >  
          > 1 Kepha (Peter) 1:18-21 -
          >  18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
          >  19 But with the precious blood of MashiYah (MessiYah), as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot:
          >  20 Who verily
          was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
          >  21 Who by Him do believe in The Mighty One, that raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him Glory; that your Belief and Trust might be in The Mighty One..
          >  
          > Revelation 5:5-14 -
          >  5 And one of the Elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the Tribe of Jahdah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the Book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
          >  6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four Beasts, and in the midst of the Elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of The Mighty One sent forth into all the Earth.
          >  7 And He came and took the Book out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the Throne.
          >  8 And when He had taken the Book, the four Beasts and four
          and twenty Elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
          >  9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the Book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to The Mighty One by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
          >  10 And hast made us unto our Mighty One kings and priests: and we shall reign on the Earth.
          >  11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many malakim (angels) round about the Throne and the Beasts and the Elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
          >  12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive Power, and Riches, and Wisdom, and Strength, and Honour, and Glory, and Blessing.
          >  13 And every creature which is in Heaven, and on
          the Earth, and under the Earth, and such as are in the Sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and Honour, and Glory, and Power, be unto Him That sitteth upon the Throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
          >  14 And the four Beasts said, So It Be HalleluYah. And the four and twenty Elders fell down and worshipped Him That liveth for ever and ever.
          >  
          > Revelation 7:14 -
          >  14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
          >  
          > Revelation 12:10-11 -
          >  10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come Salvation, and Srength, and the Reign of The Mighty One, and the Power of His MashiYah (MessiYah): for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our The Mighty One day and
          night.
          >  11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
          >  
          > Please, do NOT mix (just as the article, that you have forwarded, does) YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Death and Sacrifice with pagan human sacrifices, that are condemned in YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law.
          >  
          > YHWSU (Yahshua) Himself said:
          >  
          > Yahchanan (John) 15:12-17 -
          >  12 This is My Commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
          >  13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
          >  14 Ye are My friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
          >  15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his master doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you.
          >  16 Ye have
          not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My Name, He may give it you.
          >  17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
          >  
          > Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
          >  
          > That is what YHWSU (Yahshua) did for us, doing Father YHWH (Yahweh)'s Will and Love for us, Giving His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life!
          >
          > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
          >  
          > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TERUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
          >  
          > Carlo Tognoni
          >  
          > BYT YHWH
          > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
          > www.byt-yhwh.
          org
          >  
          > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ===
          >  
          >  
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael yehochanan@. ..
          > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
          > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:34:39 PM
          > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?
          >
          >
          > Shalom Everyone,
          > In a previous post, I said the execution of Yeshua on the Cross did not atone for sin. Rather, it is his life and ministry which culminated in his execution that lead to our salvation. In addition, his ministry is to return Israel and the Gentiles to YHWH and His Torah. At that point, one is eligible for salvation--not before. So, Yeshua definitely atones for the sins of the repentant. He accomplished this via his ministry, not his execution.
          > Please read the three links below. I
          pasted one for everyone to see. But make sure you read the other three before you respond to this post. 
          > Shalom,
          > Yehochanan
          >  
          >  The Atonement
          >
          > Can one man die for another?
          >
          > Did Messiah ?
          >
          >
          > by D. J. Love, Minister, TSN
          >
          > (Upgraded 11-9-2001)
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > There appears to be some that believe or at least question as to whether or not any man can die for another. Is this true? The verses in question are stated below along with their explanation( s). I must say, however, that no one should extract verses out of their intended context, and attempt to haphazardly apply them in a generalized fashion. To do so is not an indication of being led by Yahweh's Holy Spirit, but by the spirit of man ("legalism" and "self").(True Believing)brother' s sin will be forgiven him. That is all sin
          except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is irrelevant, because a "True Believer" can not blaspheme the Holy Spirit, as it is part of the requirement for being a "True Believer." Please understand; only selfless "Sacrificial Love" can redeem a man in the eyes of Yahweh, and this is what is meant by "Believing in Yahweh," as Yahshua, also, "Believed in Yahweh," which is the same thing as "Following in the Footsteps of Yahshua."
          > Additionally, "Sacrificial Love" means to do without Yahshua died on the tree to emphasize what is meant by ""Self."Sacrificial Love".
          > Psalms 49:1-13(King David is a "True Believer")
          >
          > Hear this, all you peoples. Listen, all you inhabitants of the world,
          > 2 Both low and high, Rich and poor together.
          > 3 My mouth will speak words of wisdom. My heart shall utter understanding.
          > 4 I will incline my ear to a proverb.. I will open my riddle on the harp.
          > 5 Why should I fear in
          the days of evil, When iniquity at my heels surrounds me?
          > 6 Those who trust in their wealth (instead of Yahweh), And boast in the multitude of their (self)riches --
          > 7 None of them (who trust in "Self")can by any means redeem his brother (friend or relative), Nor give Yahweh a ransom for him.
          > 8 For the redemption of their life is costly, No (worldly)payment is ever enough,
          > 9 That he should live on forever, That he should not see corruption.
          > 10 For he sees that wise men die; Likewise the fool and the senseless perish, And leave their wealth to others.
          > 11 Their inward thought is, that their houses endure forever, And their dwelling places to all generations. They call their lands after their own names.
          > 12 But man, despite his riches, doesn't endure. He is like the animals that perish.
          > 13 This is the destiny of those who are foolish, And of those who approve their sayings. Selah.
          >
          >
          > (Yahweh's servant)is trying to instill what it means "To (Sacrificially) Love Your Brotherself willed(those without Yahweh's Holy Spirit of Love or "Mind Set")have no sacrifice for sin. There are those of the "Calvinist" persuasion whose beliefs are in direct contradiction to this basic fact. Calvinism falsely teaches that we are totally responsible for the sins of our parents all the way back to Eden! The "Total Depravity" foundational belief of Calvinism - which most churches either directly or indirectly adhere to - states we can never be sinless because of the inherited sins of past generations. Obviously this is both wrong and incorrect!
          > Deuteronomy 24:16(remember that legalism is in opposition to sacrificial love)
          >
          > 16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every (unrighteous) man shall be put to death for his own sin.
          >
          > In Jeremiah 31:30 below, we again see where the verse is taken out of context and without understanding. "Sour Grapes" describes a person who is extremely selfish or self-centered, and this term is used to emphasize the word iniquity, which is anything wicked, but is never righteousness. Therefore, a person who is selfish and without sacrificial love in their heart or mind (that person)cannot possibly have Yahweh's Holy Spirit of Love or Yahweh's Law of Love in his/her heart; this type of (self-centered) person will die in their sins.
          > " into the hearts and minds of a stiff necked, people. Here Moses is stating that no man, father or son is legally responsible for the debts or sins of another.
          > Additionally, all who are considered to be unrighteous
          >
          >
          > In Psalms 49:1-13 (below), verse seven appears to say "no man" can be a redemption for the sins of another. And yet "In Context" Yahweh in His wisdom has
          "Qualified" this statement by verse six to say, "Those who trust in their wealth, and boast in the multitude of their riches --." In other words, no follower of "Self" can redeem another man from his sins. If you take the time to look up 1 John 5:14-17, you will see that the "Righteous" can pray for the sin of another "True Believing" brother, and the
          >
          >
          > In Deuteronomy 24:16 below, we see the very same practice of taking verses out of context. In this chapter Moses
          >
          >
          > Jeremiah 31:29-33(verse 30 is stated within the context of iniquity)
          >
          > 29 In those days they shall say no more, The (self-centered) fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge (they become hateful after the example of their fathers).(regardles s)everyone shall die for his own iniquity:(becomes self-centered) , his teeth shall be set on edge (become hateful).(another) covenant with the house of
          Israel, and with the house of Judah:
          > 32 not according to the (physical)covenant (marriage)that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke (divorced Yahweh by pagan idolatry),(Spiritua l)law (or Torah of Selfless, Sacrificial Love)in their inward parts, and in their heart (mind or pneuma)will I write it; and I (Yahweh, not Yahshua)will be their Yahweh, and they shall be my people (Yahshua is Yahweh's Proxy, Ambassador or Champion):Ezekiel 18:20(perfectly states my previous points exactly)
          >
          > "The (self-centered) person who (selfishly)sins will die. The (a) son will not bear the punishment for the (a) father's iniquity (selfishness) ,(selfishness) ;(selfless) righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness (or selfishness) of the wicked will be upon himself."
          >
          > (Spiritual Laws of Love)in the hearts of man. However, pagan
          christianity teaches that this Torah, which is actually the same Torah Yahweh has always had and gave to Moses, has been abolished, "Nailed on the Cross" or superseded by "Grace." Such teaching by pagan christianity is open rebellion against the eternal Torah that Yahweh clearly says is part of the covenant that "True Believers" are now under! Such teachings are blasphemy!
          >
          > And finally we have Proverbs 17:15, and I can't figure out how anyone could relate this to atonement for sin, when this verse is simply expressing Isaiah 5:20 in another form.
          > Proverbs 17:15(same as Isaiah 5:20)
          > 15 He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the righteous, both of them alike are an abomination to Yahweh.
          >
          >
          > Isaiah 5:20 (same as Proverbs 17:15)
          > 20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
          >
          Did Yahshua give himself to justify the wicked?
          > Absolutely Not!That would be the belief of catholicism
          >
          >
          > Yahshua gave himself to justify the "Righteous!"
          > Selfless repentant sinners under Grace
          >
          >
          > So, can one man give himself for another?
          >
          > Absolutely, if by "Giving Himself" we understand that it was not Messiah's death (if indeed he did die on the stake), but his example of selflessness that leads us unto salvation.
          >
          >
          > 1 Peter 2:21
          > For even hereunto were ye called: because Messiah also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
          > But
          >
          >
          > No Righteous Man, not even Messiah Yahshua, can ask for and bring about the forgiveness of selfish unrepentant sinners.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > If you arrived here from a search engine or an external link
          > Click
          on the to access the Home Page
          >  
          >  
          > the righteousness of the nor will the (a) father bear the punishment for the (a) son's iniquity
          >
          >
          >
          > although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh.
          > 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my
          > 31 Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new every man who eats the sour grapes
          > 30 But
          >
          > The word for "law" is Torah! So, here Yahweh is stating that He will place His "True Torah"
          >
          > The Atonement Explained(Yahshua and The Azazel Goat)
          >
          > Faith, Grace, and The Atonement(The Relationship)
          >
          > Can One man Die For Another?
          >

        • dirkm@bellsouth.net
          Thank you, this e-mail was very good. I have liked many of your e-mails, you seem to have a great understanding of things. I am glad you are here to help me
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 2, 2008
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            Thank you, this e-mail was very good.  I have liked many of your e-mails, you seem to have a great understanding of things.  I am glad you are here to help me understand.
             
            -------------- Original message from "Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael" <yehochanan@...>: --------------

            Shalom Bro. Carlo,

            I am glad that you understand my point that the life and ministry of Yehoshua (including his execution) is the sacrifice for us. My words could easily be confused with the scoffers who have recently come in the room bashing New Testament teachings. Thank you for actually reading my words.

            I do not dispute at all that he died as a part of the Yah's plan for salvation. My only point is that I do not believe (what I consider to be) the Christian concept of Yehoshua somehow representing an altar sacrifice as atonement for sin. The execution of Yehoshua has absolutely nothing to do with the Torah practice of animal sacrifice. The allusions of Yeshua to being the Lamb/Pesach of Yah and the sacrificial lamb on Yom Kippur are purely allegorical. The only thing I want to show in this thread is evidence that the Messiah's complete life itself was the atonement and that Yah never required the Messiah to be killed as a sort of altar sacrifice. So, the focus is not whether or not the Messiah atoned for the sins (of true believers) of the world. The issue is whether his life was the atonement or was his death a sort of human altar sacrifice.

            Unlike the majority of the people you debate in this forum, I did actually read all of your verses that you painstaking posted in response to me. I hate when I take time to write a long post or email and someone replies without reading what I said or they would ignore my questions. So I have to keep repeating myself. I have seen this done to your over and over in this forum. And, like in the past, if I am incorrect, I will recant my opinion and give thanks to YHWH that He is opened my eyes to more of the Truth.

            Now, let us reason with the Scriptures.

            Keep in mind, I only offer evidence, not proof. For that, we would have to sit down together and study the Bible line for line. So, for now, we can just ask questions back and forth until we come to a conclusion (by the Will of YHWH).

            The verses you posted are of two types. The first type support what we both believe--that being--that his life and execution are part of his sacrifice. The other type gives examples where it appears that his literal execution is a type of human/animal sacrifice. This is what I dispute.

            First of all, his execution does not satisfy the Torah requirements for being an offering. His Offering was purely spiritual. The fact that his physical body was beaten and bruised excludes the Messiah from being a physical sacrifice. I will not quote the dozens of verses that clearly say that no sacrifice may be offered to Yah with a spot or blemish of any kind. And when we inspect the New Testament writings, we read where it make sure that we know that he satisfied the requirements on the spiritual level, not the physical. It says that he was spiritually without blemish (without sin). This satisfied that spiritual requirement of being without blemish.

            I Peter 1:19-21

            But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

            21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

            Now take note of the word as of in the verse. In the Greek text, we see the word hos and in the Aramaic Peshitta, we see the word domuma which both mean likeness and similitude. Hosea 12:10 says: I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. That verse explicitly says that his life (culminating with this death) directly corresponded spiritually to the offering of the Pesach lamb. In both cases, the pesach lamb did no harm in his life, was spotless, was executed for others benefit and did not put up any resistant to his own destruction. So, the New Testament uses this parallel to explain the sacrifice that Yehoshua made for mankind.

            The verses you quoted from the Gospels only call him the Lamb and do not directly imply that his death atones for anything. The only verses that say that say that his actual, physical death corresponds to the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifices are the writing of Paul and the Book of Hebrews. I just showed you that Peter explicitly says that this is allegorical (a similitude). I checked that Aramaic (my preference) and the Greek and they both say that Peter taught this. But what about the writings of Paul and Hebrews? Well, let read what Peter says about Paul's writings.

            2Peter 3:15-16 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

            I do not quote this to dispute your knowledge of Torah or faith in YHWH. My point is that Peter clearly states that Paul's style of writing cannot be taking literally in many places. You quoted several verses that says that Yehoshua's execution literally was similar to the animal sacrifices except that the Messiah's sacrifice was eternally effective while the animal sacrifice did not cleans people forever. But, we are warned by Peter to not take everything that Paul says literally. So, now I will inspect a few of the verse to show that Paul's verses are allegorical.

            So, let us look at one verse you posted as a prime example. This should be sufficient to show that the concept of death and blood and other such words are allegorical in the New Testament writings. The other verses can all be view allegorically. For example, when it says he offered himself up, it does not necessarily mean as a martyr. Paul says over and over that this means you lifestyle and deeds. Paul taught that being a living sacrifice is pleasing to God. So, there is much evidence in the New Testament that you a person does not have to die to be a sacrifice. And we also read in the Tanakh that Yah desires obedience, not sacrifice. I will not go to deep into that at this time. My point is that offering yourself up does not mean being killed. If you believe that, then we just have a different of opinion on definitions. So, I will just stick to the written word and see what happens.

            Romans 5:6-11

            6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time MashiYah (MessiYah) died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But The mighty One commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, MashiYah (MessiYah) died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to The Mighty One by the Death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be Saved by His Life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in The mighty One through our Master YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), by Whom we have now received the atonement.

            The references in the book of Romans and Hebrews carry the most force. The reason is because these verses make direct reference to the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice, and strong terms like blood and death. The reason such strong terms are used is to generate emotion in the mind of the reader--not to convey a literal account. So, what evidence do I have that the terms blood and death can be interpreted symbolically? It is because the Messiah himself used them that way.

            BLOOD

            Matthew 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this IS my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

            First, we see that he refers to HIS BLOOD in allegorical terms. MORE IMPORTANTLY, he is say that IT IS shed. He did not say that IT WILL BE shed. He said it IS shed. This is present tense, not future. Why did he says this in the present tense and not the future. ALLEGORICAL. Spirituality is not dependant on time. Here are few more examples of allegorical speak which, if taken literally, is an abomination.

            John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

            How does a person eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Messiah. He says right there that you must do it to have eternal life. Again, allegorical. If you look throughout the New Testament writings, the term flesh always means desire. When applied to the Messiah, it means the desire to please the Creator and when applied to men, it means the desire to please oneself. The term blood is also used in an allegorical sense as well. One of the ways it is used is to mean guilt.

            Next are some verses in which the death is used allegorically.

            DEATH

            Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

            Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

            Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

            In that verse, we see that the body can be dead even though the person is still living!

            Rom 14:8-9 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

            Here, we see that he died, resurrected and revived to be lord over the dead and living, not as an altar sacrifice for sin.

            The only verse that says that says that the Messiah died for our sins in any way in the next verse. As you can see, the issue is not his death being a vicarious atonement. Again, I will not go into the real meaning of the verse. My only point in this point is that his death has nothing to do with fulfilling the Torah ritual of sacrifice.

            1Corinthians 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

             

            In addition, we also see other allegorical terms associated with alter sacrifice like sweet odor. We only see that term with important altar sacrifices. Yet, in the New Testament, it is used allegorically.

            2Corinthians 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

            Philippians 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

            I will not attempt to go into the esoteric meaning of such concepts. My only focus in this thread is to show that those verses saying that his death is a sort of Pesach or Yom Kippur sacrifice is purely allegorical. The reason that it meaning those two High Holy days is to show that the sacrifice of the Messiah accomplished eternally what they rituals were set up to do year after year. This is why we read in the book of Ezekiel that those Holy Days will be keep only as a memorial, not to cleans us from sin.

            In conclusion, the purpose of this post is the give evidence that the reference to the Messiah being substitute animal sacrifice is purely allegorical. Human sacrifice is forbidden in Torah and the Messiah did manifest as a human. That fact alone excludes him from being an sacrificial offering in the same sense as the animals were. But, the book of Hebrews clearly substitutes Yehoshua (a human) for the sacrificial goat on Yom Kippur which is forbidden in Torah. In additional, even if we ignore that fact, his physical body was not fit to be a proper offering to HaShem because it was bruised.

            On the contrary, when viewed spiritually, we see a direct parallel of the life of the Messiah to the animal sacrifices. Due to the length of this post, I will not list the numerous parallels. The point is that the literary style of that time used graphic imagery and symbolism to general the appropriate emotional response in the reader. Those who studied under the Master, and later, Paul and the Apostles, were train in the meaning of these symbolisms. The masses can only interpret them literally because they do not know the symbolic meaning. Therefore, they read the Scriptures as if it is a history book because that is all they know. The massed read everything this way. They have never been trained to understand spiritual symbolism.

            The Master explained why he taught this way to his disciples. When he departed, his disciples taught their disciples in the same manner. So, when the New Testament was written, it was written only for the disciples of Yehoshua. Only the disciples can possibly understand the deep, esoteric teachings in the books. So, read exactly what Master Yehoshua says to his disciples.

            Mat 13:10-18And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For thi s people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them]. � Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

            My point is that we may assume that the Scripture says what it says--that meaning--that they are literal and purely historical. But Yehoshua clearly states that the inner teachings are given using symbolic language that can only be understood by those devoted to him. So, I do understand how you can interpret the words in the New Testament as saying that the Messiah will died as a sort of sacrifice. But, the symbolic meaning has far greater implications. At that level, we are actually given the spiritual instructions to achieve the state of sinlessness that is described in I John 3. So, the masses with have to wait for the resurrection of the dead to shed their sinful nature. But, the Master actually laid down teachings for his devotees to achieve this state of perfection in this lifetime before we die.

            So keep in mind, my only point of contention is that the statements in the New Testament implying that the execution of Yehoshua is like an animal sacrifice is purely allegorical. This post is just an overview. Since this is an deep issue, it will be impossible to prove what I say conclusively. If you inspect the Scriptures, you will be able to understand the inner meaning at a basic level. However, to understand the exact meaning, it must come from one of the direct apostolic lineage with the only exception being if you get it directly from the Master himself like Paul did. But, just reading the Bible on our own will not work.

            From the very beginning, the Master taught his inner circle of disciples differently than the rest of the believers. This applies to this very subject. Therefore, not understanding this matter does not mean that we are not true disciples of the Master, it just means that we have are not privy to the inner teachings yet. So, the focus is now is on Torah observance and cleansing our hearts of self-centered desires. When he have spiritually matures, then we can be trusted with the inner teachings. But, just accepting Yehoshua as Messiah and keeping the religion given to Israel will not suffice to receive the High Wisdom.

            One last thing before I close. As I type this, I keep finding more information. So, I will wait to respond further if you have questions. But, one last thing I did want to bring to your attention is Ephesians 5--the whole chapter. Please read the chapter because what I say will not make sense unless you do and I do not want to make this post even longer by pasting it. When you read it, you see that Paul is describing the marriage relationship. But, in verse 32 he says this is allegorical and then applies it to physical marriage. So, his real message is spiritual and has nothing to do with this world. In that particular case, the allegory can be applied to a physical marriage. But there is no way I can reconcile KILLING A MESSIAH with the Torah.

            So, in your response, you will have to show me where killing a human as a sacrifice is allowed in the Torah. I am not yet able to do so and that is why I dropped the literally belief of the Messiah being a human sacrifice. In fact, it is that teaching that led me and others to reject the New Testament as a whole. It actually worked out because, for about two years, all I did was focus on Hebrew and the Tanakh which made me a better disciple of Yehoshua. But, when I discovered the allegorical nature of the Bible, then I was able reconcile that teachings. But, I verify ALL THINGS with the Torah. I put the Torah above all writings. If something contradicts Torah, then I reject it or look deeper into the matter. My opinion is based on my zeal to harmonize the New Testament with the Torah. So, please show me in the Torah where killing the Messiah is allowed.

            Shalom,

            Yehochanan

            P.S. I know this post is long. So I will summarize the points of focus for you to respond to. These are the points I made in my LONG post. These are the things that lead me to my opinion.

            I disagree with the literal interpretation given in the book of Hebrews that the Messiah is a sacrifice because:

            1. Human sacrifice is forbidden in Torah.

            2. Yehoshua's flesh was bruised making him an unfit sacrifice according to Torah law.

            I believe the following instead:

            1. Yehoshua fit all the Torah requirements of a spiritual sacrifice. For example, his purity corresponded to being without blemish.

            2. The New Testament teaching on the Yehoshua being an altar sacrifice is symbolic and only understood by the inner initiates. The masses of believers are only given the general understanding in parable form.

            THE END


            --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@...> wrote:
            >
            > Shalom Yehochanan!
            >  
            > I fully agree with you that YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Life and Ministry was ALSO part of His Sacrifice for us, just as His Disciples' lives and ministries are.
            >  
            > But, contrary to what you said, I believe that His Death (that we have to REMEMBER, at His Memorial, at Passover time, taking unleavened bread and wine, as symbols of HIS Body and Blood, as He instructed His Disciples to do, until He will come back) was ALSO part of His Sacrifice for us, just as His Apostles clearly Understood.
            >  
            > Here below are some of their Inspired Writings about it:
            >  
            > Yahchanan (John) 1:29 -
            >  29 The next day Yahchanan seeth YHWSU (Yahshua) coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of  The Mighty One, Which taketh away the sin of the world.
            >  36 And looking upon YHWSU (Yahshua) as He walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of The Mighty One!
            >  
            > Yahchanan (John) 3:14-21 -
            >  14 And as Mosheh lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up:
            >  15 That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
            >  16 For The Mighty One so loved the world, that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life.
            >  17 For The Mighty One sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.
            >  18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of The Mighty One.
            >  19 And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil.
            >  20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the Light, neither cometh to the Light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
            >  21 But he that doeth Truth cometh to the Light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in The Mighty One.
            >  
            > Romans 5:6-11 -
            >  6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time MashiYah (MessiYah) died for the ungodly.
            >  7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
            >  8 But The mighty One commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, MashiYah (MessiYah) died for us.
            >  9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
            >  10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to The Mighty One by the Death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be Saved by His Life.
            >  11 And not only so, but we also joy in The mighty One through our Master YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), by Whom we have now received the atonement.
            >   
            > Romans 6:1-10 -
            >  1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
            >  2 The Mighty One forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
            >  3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), were baptized into His Death?
            >  4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as MashiYah (MessiYah) was raised up from the dead by the Glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
            >  5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His Death, we shall be also in the likeness of H is Resurrection:
            >  6 Knowing this, that our old man is impaled with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
            >  7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
            >  8 Now if we be dead with MashiYah (MessiYah), we believe that we shall also live with Him:
            >  9 Knowing that MashiYah (MessiYah) being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
            >  10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto The Mighty One.
            >  
            > 1 Corinthians  5:7 -
            >  7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even MashiYah (MessiYah) our Passover is sacrificed for us:
            >  
            > Hebrews 2:9, 13-18 -
            >  9 But we see YHWSU (Yahshua), Who was made a little lower than the malakim (angels) for the suffering of death, c rowned with Glory and Honour; that he by the grace of The Mighty One should taste death for every man.
            >  13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which The Mighty One hath given Me.
            >  14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
            >  15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
            >  16 For verily He took not on Him the nature of malakim (angels); but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.
            >  17 Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to The Mighty One, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
            >  18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted , he is able to succour them that are tempted.
            >  
            > Hebrews 7:24-28 -
            >  24 But this man, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangeable Priesthood.
            >  25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto The Mighty One by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.
            >  26 For such an High Priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made Higher than the Heavens;
            >  27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this He did once, when He offered up Himself.
            >  28 For the Law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the Word of the oath, which was since the Law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
            >  
            > Hebrews 9:11-28 - 
            >  11 But MashiYah (MessiYah) being come an High Priest of  righteous things to come, by a Greater and More Perfect Tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
            >  12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His Own blood, he entered in once into The Set Apart Place, having obtained Eternal Redemption for us.
            >  13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
            >  14 How much more shall the blood of MashiYah (MessiYah), Who through the eternal Spirit, offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
            >  15 And for this cause He is the Mediator of the New Testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the First Testament, they which are called might receive the promise of Eternal Inheritance.
            >  16 For where a Testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the Testator.
            >  17 For a Testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the Testator liveth.
            >  18 Whereupon neither the First Testament was dedicated without blood.
            >  19 For when Mosheh had spoken every precept to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
            >  20 Saying, This is the blood of the Testament which The Mighty One hath enjoined unto you.
            >  21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the Tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
            >  22 And almost all things are by the Law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
            >  23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the Heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
            >  24 For MashiYah (MessiYah) is not entered into The Set Apart Places made with hands, which are the figures of the True; but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of The Mighty One for us:
            >  25 Nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the High Priest entereth into the Set Apart Place every year with blood of others;
            >  26 For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
            >  27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
            >  28 So MashiYah (MessiYah) was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
            >  
            > Hebrews 10:10-21 - 
            >  10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus C hrist once for all.
            >  11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
            >  12 But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of The Mighty One;
            >  13 From henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool.
            >  14 For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
            >  15 Whereof The Set Apart Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
            >  16 This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith YHWH (Yahweh), I will put My Laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
            >  17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
            >  18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
            >  19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into The Most  Set Apart by the blood of YHWSU (Yahshua),
            >  20 By a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh;
            >  21 And having an High Priest over the House of The Mighty One
            >  
            > 1 Kepha (Peter) 1:18-21 -
            >  18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
            >  19 But with the precious blood of MashiYah (MessiYah), as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot:
            >  20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
            >  21 Who by Him do believe in The Mighty One, that raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him Glory; that your Belief and Trust might be in The Mighty One..
            >  
            > Revelation 5:5-14 -
            >  5 And one of the Elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the Tribe of Jahdah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the Book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
            >  6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four Beasts, and in the midst of the Elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of The Mighty One sent forth into all the Earth.
            >  7 And He came and took the Book out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the Throne.
            >  8 And when He had taken the Book, the four Beasts and four and twenty Elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
            >  9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the Book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to The Mighty One by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
            >  10 And hast made us unto our Mighty One kings and priests: and we shall reign on the Earth.
            >  11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many malakim (angels) round about the Throne and the Beasts and the Elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
            >  12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive Power, and Riches, and Wisdom, and Strength, and Honour, and Glory, and Blessing.
            >  13 And every creature which is in Heaven, and on the Earth, and under the Earth, and such as are in the Sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and Honour, and Glory, and Power, be unto Him That sitteth upon the Throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
            >  14 And the four Beasts said, So It Be HalleluYah. And the four and twenty Elders fell down and worshipped Him That liveth for ever and ever.
            >  
            > Revelation 7:14 -
            &g t;  14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
            >  
            > Revelation 12:10-11 -
            >  10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come Salvation, and Srength, and the Reign of The Mighty One, and the Power of His MashiYah (MessiYah): for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our The Mighty One day and night.
            >  11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
            >  
            > Please, do NOT mix (just as the article, that you have forwarded, does) YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Death and Sacrifice with pagan human sacrifices, that are condemned in YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law.
            >  
            > YHWSU (Yahshua) Himself said:
            >  
            > Yahchanan (John) 15:12 -17 -
            >  12 This is My Commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
            >  13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
            >  14 Ye are My friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
            >  15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his master doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you.
            >  16 Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My Name, He may give it you.
            >  17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
            >  
            > Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
            >  
            > That is what YHWSU (Yahshua) did for us, doing Father YHWH (Yahweh)'s Will and Lov e for us, Giving His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life!
            >
            > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
            >  
            > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TERUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
            >  
            > Carlo Tognoni
            >  
            > BYT YHWH
            > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
            > www.byt-yhwh. org
            >  
            > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ===
            >  
            >  
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael yehochanan@. ..
            > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
            > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 10:34:39 PM
            > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?
            >
            >
            > Shalom Everyone,
            > ; In a previous post, I said the execution of Yeshua on the Cross did not atone for sin. Rather, it is his life and ministry which culminated in his execution that lead to our salvation. In addition, his ministry is to return Israel and the Gentiles to YHWH and His Torah. At that point, one is eligible for salvation--not before. So, Yeshua definitely atones for the sins of the repentant. He accomplished this via his ministry, not his execution.
            > Please read the three links below. I pasted one for everyone to see. But make sure you read the other three before you respond to this post. 
            > Shalom,
            > Yehochanan
            >  
            >  The Atonement
            >
            > Can one man die for another?
            >
            > Did Messiah ?
            >
            >
            > by D. J. Love, Minister, TSN
            >
            > (Upgraded 11-9-2001)
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > There appears to be some that believe or at least question as to whether or not any man can die for another. Is this true? The verses in question are stated below along with their explanation( s). I must say, however, that no one should extract verses out of their intended context, and attempt to haphazardly apply them in a generalized fashion. To do so is not an indication of being led by Yahweh's Holy Spirit, but by the spirit of man ("legalism" and "self").(True Believing)brother' s sin will be forgiven him. That is all sin except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is irrelevant, because a "True Believer" can not blaspheme the Holy Spirit, as it is part of the requirement for being a "True Believer." Please understand; only selfless "Sacrificial Love" can redeem a man in the eyes of Yahweh, and this is what is meant by "Believing in Yahweh," as Yahshua, also, "Believed in Yahweh," which is the same thing as "Following in the Footsteps of Yahshua."
            > Additionally, "Sacrificial Love" means to do without Yahshua died on the tree to emphasize what is meant by ""Self."Sacrificial Love".
            > Psalms 49:1-13(King David is a "True Believer")
            >
            > Hear this, all you peoples. Listen, all you inhabitants of the world,
            > 2 Both low and high, Rich and poor together.
            > 3 My mouth will speak words of wisdom. My heart shall utter understanding.
            > 4 I will incline my ear to a proverb. I will open my riddle on the harp.
            > 5 Why should I fear in the days of evil, When iniquity at my heels surrounds me?
            > 6 Those who trust in their wealth (instead of Yahweh), And boast in the multitude of their (self)riches --
            > 7 None of them (who trust in "Self")can by any means redeem his brother (friend or relative), Nor give Yahweh a ransom for him.
            > 8 For the redemption of their life is costly, No (worldly)payment is ever enough,
            > 9 That he should live on forever, That he should not see corruption.
            > 10 For he sees that wise men die; Likewise the fool and the senseless perish, And leave their wealth to others.
            > 11 Their inward thought is, that their houses endure forever, And their dwelling places to all generations. They call their lands after their own names.
            > 12 But man, despite his riches, doesn't endure. He is like the animals that perish.
            > 13 This is the destiny of those who are foolish, And of those who approve their sayings. Selah.
            >
            >
            > (Yahweh's servant)is trying to instill what it means "To (Sacrificially) Love Your Brotherself willed(those without Yahweh's Holy Spirit of Love or "Mind Set")have no sacrifice for sin. There are those of the "Calvinist" persuasion whose beliefs are in direct contradiction to this basic fact. Calvinism falsely teaches that we are totally responsible for the sins of our parents all the way back to Eden! The "Total Depravity" foundational belief of Calvinism - which most churches either directly or indirectly adhere to - states we can never be sinless because of the inh erited sins of past generations. Obviously this is both wrong and incorrect!
            > Deuteronomy 24:16(remember that legalism is in opposition to sacrificial love)
            >
            > 16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every (unrighteous) man shall be put to death for his own sin.
            >
            > In Jeremiah 31:30 below, we again see where the verse is taken out of context and without understanding. "Sour Grapes" describes a person who is extremely selfish or self-centered, and this term is used to emphasize the word iniquity, which is anything wicked, but is never righteousness. Therefore, a person who is selfish and without sacrificial love in their heart or mind (that person)cannot possibly have Yahweh's Holy Spirit of Love or Yahweh's Law of Love in his/her heart; this type of (self-centered) person will die in their sins.
            > " into the hearts and minds of a stiff necked, people. Her e Moses is stating that no man, father or son is legally responsible for the debts or sins of another.
            > Additionally, all who are considered to be unrighteous
            >
            >
            > In Psalms 49:1-13 (below), verse seven appears to say "no man" can be a redemption for the sins of another. And yet "In Context" Yahweh in His wisdom has "Qualified" this statement by verse six to say, "Those who trust in their wealth, and boast in the multitude of their riches --." In other words, no follower of "Self" can redeem another man from his sins. If you take the time to look up 1 John 5:14-17, you will see that the "Righteous" can pray for the sin of another "True Believing" brother, and the
            >
            >
            > In Deuteronomy 24:16 below, we see the very same practice of taking verses out of context. In this chapter Moses
            >
            >
            > Jeremiah 31:29-33(verse 30 is stated within the context of iniquity)
            >
            > 29 In those days they shall say no more, T he (self-centered) fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge (they become hateful after the example of their fathers).(regardles s)everyone shall die for his own iniquity:(becomes self-centered) , his teeth shall be set on edge (become hateful).(another) covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
            > 32 not according to the (physical)covenant (marriage)that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke (divorced Yahweh by pagan idolatry),(Spiritua l)law (or Torah of Selfless, Sacrificial Love)in their inward parts, and in their heart (mind or pneuma)will I write it; and I (Yahweh, not Yahshua)will be their Yahweh, and they shall be my people (Yahshua is Yahweh's Proxy, Ambassador or Champion):Ezekiel 18:20(perfectly states my previous points exactly)
            >
            > "The (self-centered) person who (selfishly)sins w ill die. The (a) son will not bear the punishment for the (a) father's iniquity (selfishness) ,(selfishness) ;(selfless) righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness (or selfishness) of the wicked will be upon himself."
            >
            > (Spiritual Laws of Love)in the hearts of man. However, pagan christianity teaches that this Torah, which is actually the same Torah Yahweh has always had and gave to Moses, has been abolished, "Nailed on the Cross" or superseded by "Grace." Such teaching by pagan christianity is open rebellion against the eternal Torah that Yahweh clearly says is part of the covenant that "True Believers" are now under! Such teachings are blasphemy!
            >
            > And finally we have Proverbs 17:15, and I can't figure out how anyone could relate this to atonement for sin, when this verse is simply expressing Isaiah 5:20 in another form.
            > Proverbs 17:15(same as Isaiah 5:20)
            > 15 He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the rig hteous, both of them alike are an abomination to Yahweh.
            >
            >
            > Isaiah 5:20 (same as Proverbs 17:15)
            > 20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
            > Did Yahshua give himself to justify the wicked?
            > Absolutely Not!That would be the belief of catholicism
            >
            >
            > Yahshua gave himself to justify the "Righteous!"
            > Selfless repentant sinners under Grace
            >
            >
            > So, can one man give himself for another?
            >
            > Absolutely, if by "Giving Himself" we understand that it was not Messiah's death (if indeed he did die on the stake), but his example of selflessness that leads us unto salvation.
            >
            >
            > 1 Peter 2:21
            > For even hereunto were ye called: because Messiah also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
            > But
            >
            >
            > ; No Righteous Man, not even Messiah Yahshua, can ask for and bring about the forgiveness of selfish unrepentant sinners.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > If you arrived here from a search engine or an external link
            > Click on the to access the Home Page
            >  
            >  
            > the righteousness of the nor will the (a) father bear the punishment for the (a) son's iniquity
            >
            >
            >
            > although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh.
            > 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my
            > 31 Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new every man who eats the sour grapes
            > 30 But
            >
            > The word for "law" is Torah! So, here Yahweh is stating that He will place His "True Torah"
            >
            > The Atonement Explained(Yahshua and The Azazel Goat)
            >
            > Faith, Grace, and The Atonement(The Relations hip)
            >
            > Can One man Die For Another?
            >

          • John V. Cordaro
            ... 2 Peter 3:15-16 says nothing about how Paul s writings should not be taken literally. You have read that into the text. It simply says he is hard to
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 2, 2008
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              On Jun 1, 2008, at 11:53 PM, Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael wrote:


              2Peter 3:15-16 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

              I do not quote this to dispute your knowledge of Torah or faith in YHWH. My point is that Peter clearly states that Paul's style of writing cannot be taking literally in many places. You quoted several verses that says that Yehoshua's execution literally was similar to the animal sacrifices except that the Messiah's sacrifice was eternally effective while the animal sacrifice did not cleans people forever. But, we are warned by Peter to not take everything that Paul says literally. So, now I will inspect a few of the verse to show that Paul's verses are allegorical.

              2 Peter 3:15-16 says nothing about how Paul's writings should not be taken literally. You have read that into the text.  It simply says he is hard to understand by those who are unlearned and unstable.

              I disagree with the literal interpretation given in the book of Hebrews that the Messiah is a sacrifice because:

              1. Human sacrifice is forbidden in Torah.


              The sacrificial death of human beings is not acceptable when initiated by human beings. All sacrificial laws are regulatory upon humans, not upon YHWH. Messiah's death was initiated by YHWH Himself (Isa.53:4, 10).  YHWH sacrificed His lamb at the exact moment He commanded Israel to sacrifice theirs, between the evenings of Abib 14. Yet, it wasn't a forced sacrifice in which the sacrifice had no choice. Yahshua volunteered to give up his life so that many would be saved through his shed blood.

              Here are the human sacrifice scriptures:

              Le 18:21  And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy Elohim: I am YHWH.
              De 18:10  There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
              2Ki 16:3  But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom YHWH cast out from before the children of Israel.
              2Ki 17:17  And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of YHWH, to provoke him to anger.
              2Ki 21:6  And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of YHWH, to provoke him to anger.
              2Ki 23:10  And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
              2Ch 33:6  And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of YHWH, to provoke him to anger.
              Jer 32:35  And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
              Eze 16:21  That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?
              Eze 20:26  And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am YHWH.
              Eze 20:31  For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith Adonai YHWH, I will not be enquired of by you.

               


              All these references pertain to idolatrous sacrifices by man to false deities. Each sacrifice was via burning with fire, not by shedding blood. Each sacrifice was forced to pass through the fire. They were murdered to supposedly appease a false deity.  Yahshua, on the other hand,  voluntarily gave up his life, having his blood shed, because he knew YHWH's plan of salvation for mankind. He knew the blood of goat's on Atonement under the old covenant was only a temporary measure to cover sin until his blood of the new covenant could be shed. Being far more efficacious, his blood not only took away sin, but cleansed the conscience of the sinner.

              2. Yehoshua's flesh was bruised making him an unfit sacrifice according to Torah law.

              Please explain how Isaiah 53:5 can speak of Messiah's wounding, bruising and stripes and yet Isa 53:10 says, "thou shall make his soul an offering for sin". It seems to me that YHWH accepted him as an "offering for sin" while in a bruised state.

              In Messiah,
              John

              On Jun 1, 2008, at 11:53 PM, Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael wrote:


              Shalom Bro. Carlo,

              I am glad that you understand my point that the life and ministry of Yehoshua (including his execution) is the sacrifice for us. My words could easily be confused with the scoffers who have recently come in the room bashing New Testament teachings. Thank you for actually reading my words.

              I do not dispute at all that he died as a part of the Yah's plan for salvation. My only point is that I do not believe (what I consider to be) the Christian concept of Yehoshua somehow representing an altar sacrifice as atonement for sin. The execution of Yehoshua has absolutely nothing to do with the Torah practice of animal sacrifice. The allusions of Yeshua to being the Lamb/Pesach of Yah and the sacrificial lamb on Yom Kippur are purely allegorical. The only thing I want to show in this thread is evidence that the Messiah's complete life itself was the atonement and that Yah never required the Messiah to be killed as a sort of altar sacrifice. So, the focus is not whether or not the Messiah atoned for the sins (of true believers) of the world. The issue is whether his lifewas the atonement or was his death a sort of human altar sacrifice.

              Unlike the majority of the people you debate in this forum, I did actually read all of your verses that you painstaking posted in response to me. I hate when I take time to write a long post or email and someone replies without reading what I said or they would ignore my questions. So I have to keep repeating myself. I have seen this done to your over and over in this forum. And, like in the past, if I am incorrect, I will recant my opinion and give thanks to YHWH that He is opened my eyes to more of the Truth.

              Now, let us reason with the Scriptures. Keep in mind, I only offer evidence, not proof. For that, we would have to sit down together and study the Bible line for line. So, for now, we can just ask questions back and forth until we come to a conclusion (by the Will of YHWH).

              The verses you posted are of two types. The first type support what we both believe--that being--that his life and execution are part of his sacrifice. The other type gives examples where it appears that his literal execution is a type of human/animal sacrifice. This is what I dispute.

              First of all, his execution does not satisfy the Torah requirements for being an offering. His Offering was purely spiritual. The fact that his physical body was beaten and bruised excludes the Messiah from being a physical sacrifice. I will not quote the dozens of verses that clearly say that no sacrifice may be offered to Yah with a spot or blemish of any kind. And when we inspect the New Testament writings, we read where it make sure that we know that he satisfied the requirements on the spiritual level, not the physical. It says that he was spiritually without blemish (without sin). This satisfied that spiritual requirement of being without blemish.

              I Peter 1:19-21 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

              21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

              Now take note of the word as of in the verse. In the Greek text, we see the word hosand in the Aramaic Peshitta, we see the word domuma which both mean likeness andsimilitude. Hosea 12:10 says: I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. That verse explicitly says that his life (culminating with this death) directly corresponded spiritually to the offering of the Pesach lamb. In both cases, the pesach lamb did no harm in his life, was spotless, was executed for others benefit and did not put up any resistant to his own destruction. So, the New Testament uses this parallel to explain the sacrifice that Yehoshua made for mankind.

              The verses you quoted from the Gospels only call him the Lamb and do not directly imply that his death atones for anything. The only verses that say that say that his actual, physical death corresponds to the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifices are the writing of Paul and the Book of Hebrews. I just showed you that Peter explicitly says that this is allegorical (a similitude). I checked that Aramaic (my preference) and the Greek and they both say that Peter taught this. But what about the writings of Paul and Hebrews? Well, let read what Peter says about Paul's writings.

              2Peter 3:15-16 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

              I do not quote this to dispute your knowledge of Torah or faith in YHWH. My point is that Peter clearly states that Paul's style of writing cannot be taking literally in many places. You quoted several verses that says that Yehoshua's execution literally was similar to the animal sacrifices except that the Messiah's sacrifice was eternally effective while the animal sacrifice did not cleans people forever. But, we are warned by Peter to not take everything that Paul says literally. So, now I will inspect a few of the verse to show that Paul's verses are allegorical.

              So, let us look at one verse you posted as a prime example. This should be sufficient to show that the concept of death and blood and other such words are allegorical in the New Testament writings. The other verses can all be view allegorically. For example, when it says he offered himself up, it does not necessarily mean as a martyr. Paul says over and over that this means you lifestyle and deeds. Paul taught that being a living sacrifice is pleasing to God. So, there is much evidence in the New Testament that you a person does not have to die to be a sacrifice. And we also read in the Tanakh that Yah desires obedience, not sacrifice. I will not go to deep into that at this time. My point is that offering yourself up does not mean being killed. If you believe that, then we just have a different of opinion on definitions. So, I will just stick to the written word and see what happens.

              Romans 5:6-11

              6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time MashiYah (MessiYah) died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But The mighty One commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, MashiYah (MessiYah) died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to The Mighty One by the Death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be Saved by His Life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in The mighty One through our Master YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), by Whom we have now received the atonement.

              The references in the book of Romans and Hebrews carry the most force. The reason is because these verses make direct reference to the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice, and strong terms like blood and death. The reason such strong terms are used is to generate emotion in the mind of the reader--not to convey a literal account. So, what evidence do I have that the terms blood and death can be interpreted symbolically? It is because the Messiah himself used them that way.

              BLOOD

              Matthew 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this IS my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

              First, we see that he refers to HIS BLOOD in allegorical terms. MORE IMPORTANTLY, he is say that IT IS shed. He did not say that IT WILL BE shed. He said it IS shed. This is present tense, not future. Why did he says this in the present tense and not the future. ALLEGORICAL. Spirituality is not dependant on time. Here are few more examples of allegorical speak which, if taken literally, is an abomination.

              John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

              How does a person eat the flesh and

            • Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael
              Shalom to All Who Read This, For all who read this post, please read all of the verses and quotes. I apologize for the length of the post. But, this is not an
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 2, 2008
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                Shalom to All Who Read This,

                For all who read this post, please read all of the verses and quotes. I apologize for the length of the post. But, this is not an easy subject to explain with a verse or two. I obviously do not have the wisdom to explain the most advanced things in a short parable like the Master. My explanations are based primarily on the written texts and not my own reasoning or interpretations. So, if they are read in detail, you will not understand my thoughts.

                In addition, all quotes are from the King James Bible for convenience. I personally consider the Hebrew Tanakh and the Aramaic Peshitta as my source texts. I am in no way endorsing this translation nor do I believe the names of the Creator and His son are Lord, God or Jesus. I just pasted the text from the online Bible text. My suggestion is that you read the verses in the version of your choice--preferably the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek texts.

                 

                Carlo said, There is no whatsoever doubt, and I fully Agree about Spiritual, Symbolic, Allegorical, Typical way of speaking ALSO used in reference to the Sacrifice of YHWSU (Yahshua), as you have well explained. But, as you know very well, ANY Spiritual Pattern has a correspondent physical pattern.

                This is absolutely correct. However, the point I am making in this thread is that spirit is separate from the corporeal. The spiritual pattern is completely spiritual and the corresponding spiritual pattern is the physical sacrificial rites of Israel--not the execution of physical body of Yehoshua. Also, the physical death/execution of the Messiah did not fulfill the requirements of being a Pesach/Passover or Yom Kippur sacrifice on the physical or spiritual level. We will show in this post that the complete atonement was all performed at the spiritual level. All of the actions were done at the spiritual level. These are the only points I am making in this thread.

                The physical body of Yehoshua does not even come into the equation. The confusion is over the meaning of apparently corporeal terms like blood, death, body, and the like. So, when we read the verses that say that Yehoshua offered his body as a sacrifice, we interpret each words as being physical. Using physical definitions, we have no choice but to interpret Yehoshua as a physical sacrifice. What I will show in this post is that the physical correspondence is the literal rituals of the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifices while the spiritual correspondence is the very act of Yehoshua instituting the New Covenant in the heavenly/spiritual tabernacle.

                I will get into the body of this message shortly. But, first, I would like to review the exactly what the new covenant is.

                Jeremiah 31:31-34Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

                There are many other verses in the Tanakh that say the same thing--mostly in the books of Isaiah and Ezekiel. As we see, the real new covenant is instituted when Israel--and Gentiles who are yoked to the Covenant--have their minds purified and perfected, the Torah is put in their hearts, and their sins are forgiven.

                We also read about this perfect state in the New Testament--particularly I John 3. I request that all who read this post review that short chapter. In that chapter, we read that true disciples of Yehoshua will attained a state of sinlessness and be given the title, Sons of God. We are taught in the Book of John by the Messiah that we will attained perfection (John 17:23). And when we check the Aramaic and Greek, they both says perfection/completion. At this point, we will truly be brethren with the Messiah (Hebrews 2:11).

                It is taught in the churches that we cannot attain this state of perfection until the resurrection of the dead. However, Yehoshua taught that we can attain this state in this lifetime. This is the whole subject of I John 3. This is what is described in the Book of Hebrews (mainly) and throughout the New Testament as a whole. So, we learn that the sacrificial system is in reality as physical representation of the spiritual actions that occur when one is passed from death to life (John 5:24).

                Keep in mind, I said that the New Testament teaches that ministry of Yehoshua is what saved and atone, not his death on the cross. The Master himself said that he who hears (obeys) his word and believe in him has eternal life. It is not his death that atones but his teachings and ministry.

                John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

                I checked the whole Tanakh and New Testament. There is not one verse that says that actual execution of the execution of physical body of the Son did anything. All that did is make Yehoshua the lord of the living and the death. The issue is never about atonement. Paul says this in the following verse.

                Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

                Now, I will show that allegorical statements in the Pauline writing and the Book of Hebrews merely details the realization of the new covenant (that being the transformation of the believers). We will see that the physical body of Yehoshua was not the sacrifice and has nothing to do with the animal sacrificial system at all. In order to show that, all we need to do is look throughout the New Testament to get the correct definitions of the words. Then we can correctly understand the statements. I will focus on chapters 8 and 9 of the Book of Hebrews with references to the words of Paul.

                The context of chapters 8 and 9 in the book of Hebrews is the Yom Kippur offering. Some of the requirements performing the Yom Kippur sacrifice are:

                1. A Temple/Tabernacle (with vessels and compartments such as the Holy of Holies)

                2. A High Priest

                3. Two goats/lambs (Yehoshua is the sacrificial lamb and the Satan is the Azazel that is sent away).

                Keep in mind, the New Testament teaches that Yehoshua fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice once and for all. As I noted before, he did not fulfill this with his physical body because there was no physical tabernacle or temple. We cannot flip back and forth from physical to spiritual. Either the whole thing was physical or the whole thing was spiritual. This is what Paul taught.

                1Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

                We humans want to make everything physical. We demand a physical God so we choose Jesus. Similarly, we want a make the spiritual sacrifice of Yehoshua a physical event which it is not. As unbelievable at it may seem, the whole sacrifice for our sins was performed in the spiritual realm and has nothing to do with the physical. I will show examples of this in the scriptures later on in the post.

                We will see in the Book of Hebrews that it contrasts the physical and the spiritual aspect of Yom Kippur. The physical rites were done by regular humans and physical animals were killed in a physical tabernacle while Yehoshua did the spiritual rites with a spiritual temple, a spiritual sacrifice and the like. The Book of Hebrew goes to great detail to show that the sacrifice is physical in complete contrast to the physical sacrifice of ancient Israel.

                So, we will now show that New Testament teaches that everything concerning the Yom Kippur observance and the Tabernacle/Temple is merely a physical representation of the spiritual reality. This everything include the High Priest, the blood, death, sacrifice, vessels and the like are all spiritual. With this knowledge, we can read scriptures detailing the death of Yehoshua in the proper context--the spiritual context.

                 

                The Tabernacle

                (Spiritual or Physical)

                 

                Hebrews 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

                As we see, the first tabernacle was physical. This is the same tabernacle that Moshe saw in his vision (Exodus 25:9). But the context of Hebrews 9 is that it is talking about a spiritual (non-physical) tabernacle. Physical sacrifices are done in the physical tabernacle. Spiritual sacrifices are done in a spiritual tabernacle. The physical body of Yehoshua is not in the spiritual tabernacle nor was his physical body sacrificed. The whole thing is spiritual. This theme is throughout the New Testament. The Tabernacle in which Yehoshua performed his sacrifice is Spiritual.

                Hebrews 9:23-24 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

                And no, a human sacrifice is not better than an animal sacrifice--not even the body of the Messiah.

                 

                THE BLOOD

                (Spiritual or Physical)

                One verse that leads Christians to believe that the blood that made atonement for us was physical is the following.

                Hebrews 9:12-15 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

                First notice that it says that he was offered without spot. The book is lying if is saying that his physical body was without spot. But, it is not talking about his physical body at all. It is his spiritual body that is the subject of this book. To imply this is speaking of the physical takes it out of context. Later, we will see that all the other words like blood and death are also spiritual.

                This section of the Book of Hebrew that I just posted above is talking about how Yehoshua institutes the TRUE NEW COVENANT. This must be done in the same pattern of the Torah with the different being that this is all on the spiritual level.

                Let us look in the Torah and see what happens with the blood. We will see that if Yehoshua performed the spiritual sacrifice of Yom Kippur once and for all, he must sprinkle the blood on the vessels and the people if the whole sacrifice is in accordance with the Law.

                Exodus 24:6-8 And Moses took half of the blood, and put [it] in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

                We can see that the Book of Hebrews is a making a direct reference to the Torah to show that the spiritual rite of atonement of believers directly parallels the physical rite originally performed by Moses.

                The Torah is definitely talking about physical blood. But, is the Book of Hebrews talking about his physical blood? According to popular belief, the Book of Hebrews is also talking about physical blood. They believe the blood of the Old Covenant is animal blood and the blood of the New Testament is Yehoshua's physical blood. But both are physical. The New Testament cannot possibly be talking about physical blood because it is not talking about his physical body.

                In addition, for in order for us to a part of the new covenant, we must be sprinkled with this blood. Yet, the New Testament does say what we are sprinkled with blood. So, we must ask ourselves if were are sprinkled with the spiritual blood or the physical blood of Yehoshua. The obvious answer is spiritual blood. It is spiritual blood that is shed and sprinkled on us to cleanse us.

                Let's see an example given by Peter that the sprinkling of the blood of the Messiah cannot be interpreted as being physical blood. Again, the spiritual tabernacle only deals with spiritual blood.

                1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

                We see clearly that the term sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ is not literally speaking about his physical blood. Therefore, we know that both physical and spiritual blood exist. Which one was spilled in the spiritual tabernacle? Yes, the spiritual blood. Physical blood nor physical flesh can enter the spiritual tabernacle.

                1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

                Again, the correspondence between the two is the physical rites performed by the Israelites compared to the spiritual rite performed by Yehoshua. The contrast is ALWAYS between the Hebrew high priest and our high priest, Yehoshua, in the spiritual temple. The reason I quote the Torah is to give the exact context. The Book of Hebrews corresponds everything back to the Torah sacrifices--not the execution of the Messiah at Calvary. It is not even mentioned. The issue is the fact that Yehoshua ascended to the spiritual, heavenly tabernacle to do a spiritual sacrifice. And this leads to the next topic.

                THE SACRIFICE

                (Physical or Spiritual)

                It has been said that the physical body of Yehoshua was the sacrifice. However, the concept of spiritual sacrifice exists in the New Testament. We already showed above that there is a spiritual tabernacle, and spiritual blood. Now, is there a spiritual sacrifice? We will now show that only spiritual sacrifices are performed in the spiritual tabernacle. And we will also show that all the references to Yehoshua being a sacrifice are also spiritual/allegorical.

                1Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

                So, we just read that the concept of spiritual sacrifices exist. Now, let see if Yehoshua was himself a physical sacrifice or a spiritual sacrifice. In order for Yehoshua to be a proper sacrifice, he must be without blemish or spot. This is stated in the Torah concerning the sacrifice of sheep, goats, rams and lambs and is repeated by Peter. This is ESPECIALLY true of the Pesach/Passover Lamb which the Messiah is said to represent.

                Exodus 12:2-5 This month [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you. Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth [day] of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of [their] fathers, a lamb for an house: And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take [it] according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take [it] out from the sheep, or from the goats:

                1Peter 1:17-19 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

                The Torah is clearly saying that the Pesach lamb must be without a physical blemish. Peter says that OUR Lamb is also without blemish. Is Peter implying that Yehoshua fulfilled the Torah commandment to be without physical blemish? NO. Obviously, Yehoshua is without blemish in the sense that he is without sin. This means that he is without a spiritual blemish because he is the spiritual sacrifice. It is the spiritual aspect that his sacrificed, not the physical. He physical body cannot be a fit sacrifice because he was bruised by being beaten. So, the only possibility is spiritual.

                Another thing that the spiritual understanding teaches us is that Yehoshua also fulfills that requirement of being a Lamb of the first year. This is because he is the firstborn of Creation. Hence, his sacrifice occurred within one year of him becoming the firstborn of creation.

                THE BODY OF YEHOSHUA

                (Physical or Spiritual)

                Up to this point, we have seen that there is a spiritual counterpart for the objects associated with the physical tabernacle such as the blood and lamb/sacrifice. But, what about the body of Yehoshua? Was the physical body sacrificed or the spiritual? Let go to the scriptures so see of the Body of Messiah is physical or spiritual.

                1Corinthians 15:39-48 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds. [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another. [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory. So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.

                So, the question is: Was it the physical body that was sacrificed in the heavenly tabernacle or the spiritual? We see clearly that it is the spiritual body that was in the spiritual tabernacle--not the physical. As we showed above, a corporeal body has no place in spiritual realm nor are physical sacrifices offered there. The eternal sacrifice is spiritual for only spirit is eternal. Truly, the Messiah's physical body was nothing more than an lump of dirt. Yet, his spiritual body is eternal and holy.

                 

                DEATH

                (Physical or Spiritual)

                Many of us believe that death is when the physical body stops operating. This is a physical death. But, what about a spiritual death? Is there such a thing. So far in this post, we have seen spiritual counterparts to common physical concepts. My thesis is that there all actions and objects in the spiritual sanctuary are spiritual. The sacrifice is definitely killed in the tabernacle. If animals faced a physical death in the physical tabernacle, then my thesis implies that there must a spiritual death in the spiritual sanctuary. So, let us see if there is a spiritual usage of the concept of death in the New Testament.

                Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

                Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

                Is Paul speaking about a physical burial and death?

                No, it is spiritual. There are two forms of spiritual death in the New Testament. One is spiritual death in which one dies to his own desires and lusts and becomes completely devoted to YHWH our Father by means of Yehoshua HaMashiach. We just read about that one. The other death is called the second death which eternal separation from the Creator in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14). The spiritual death is obviously applied to Yehoshua who died for our sins. But his death was not in his physical body. It was in his spiritual body. Contrary to the corporeal definition, spiritual death and rebirth is a transition from a lower state from a higher, exalted state. His low state was caused by him bearing our sins and he was subsequently exalted to the Supreme state by His Father.

                 

                This post is getting ridiculously long so will summary at this time. I can give many more examples of spiritual counterparts to common physical ideas.

                What I hoped to show in this post that the execution of the physical body of Yehoshua did not fulfill the requirements of being a Pesach/Passover or Yom Kippur sacrifice as atonement sin on the physical or spiritual level. It fails on the physical level because human sacrifice is forbidden in Torah and his body was blemished. Also, the Yom Kippur sacrifice, which the Book of Hebrews says he was, must be done in a Sanctuary--not on a cross or stake. Also, the sacrifice is only effective on those who accept it that day and have the blood sprinkled on them. One cannot decide the day after Yom Kippur that he wants to be cleansed that year. He must present at the time of the ritual.

                On the contrary, Yehoshua fulfilled all the required of the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice in the spiritual sanctuary with his spiritual body. We showed that the New Testament gives a spiritual counterpart to every aspect of the physical sacrifices of Pesach and Yom Kippur. We did that by showing that terms like death, blood, body, tabernacle and the like all have spiritual counterparts. Therefore, when we read the same verses again, we know that it is speaking on the spiritual terms and not physical.

                The challenge for those who have this information is to pray to the Father to reveal the true meaning of these concepts. I only give the hint that concepts like death, blood, body, and tabernacle are spiritual terms. But, what does spiritual tabernacle mean? What is spiritual blood? What is a spiritual body? This…I will not reveal in the forum. As I said before, the inner teachings are only for the true disciples of Yehoshua. The Master imparted these teachings to his apostles and the apostles passed it on from generation to generation.

                In the previous post, I showed using the parable of the sower that Yehoshua did not teach everyone the same thing. The masses were taught basic things (like the Beatitudes) but the inner teachings of the parables were only explained to his disciples. This same thing applies today. So, unless one receives this wisdom via the Holy Spirit, he must obtained a true spiritual teacher. Paul taught this. There is no way a person will just pick up the Bible and figure it out without the Holy Spirit or a proper teacher. This is obvious reason for all the confusion being interpreted from the Bible in first place. And since I am not anointed to teach, I will not give up the inner teachings. But, many people know these things--not just me.

                Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

                 

                Lastly, keep in mind that post does not change that fact that Yehoshua died for our sins and makes complete atonement for us. The difference I made was in the meaning of such phrases. I also wanted to point out that the scriptures are not limited to our corporeal reality. For those who have a good knowledge of the Scriptures, this post hintd at the fact that there is a deeper meaning to subjects we believed our whole life and thought were simple. Another point of this thread is to show how the New Testament is perfectly in line with the Torah at the spiritual level. Lastly, I am committed to extirpating the Christian doctrines that many of us brought over with us from churchianity. They are hard to let go of. It take years and a lot of hard work and study to release those false doctrines--not to mention courage.

                I close this post with the words of Paul.

                1Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

                Best Wishes,

                Yehochanan

                P.S.

                John asked me, Please explain how Isaiah 53:5 can speak of Messiah's wounding, bruising and stripes and yet Isaiah 53:10 says, "thou shall make his soul an offering for sin". It seems to me that YHWH accepted him as an "offering for sin" while in a bruised state.

                Easy, it says his SOUL/Nefesh was the offering, not the physical body which is the thesis of this article. Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah being a Pesach or Yom Kippur sacrifice. It is only at the spiritual level (nefesh) that Messiah is an offering, not the physical body level.

                The only thing I set out to prove in this article is that the New Testament gives spiritual definitions. When they are applied to the verses in the Tanakh and the New Testament concerning the sacrifice of the Messiah, the understanding differs from that of the Christians who view everything from the physical level. Even their heaven and hell is physical.

                THE END


                --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com, BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@...> wrote:
                >
                > Shalom Yehochanan!
                > Thank you very much for your kind reply!
                > There is no whatsoever doubt, and I fully Agree about Spiritual, Symbolic, Allegorical, Typical way of speaking ALSO used in reference to the Sacrifice of YHWSU (Yahshua), as you have well explained.
                > But, as you know very well, ANY Spiritual Pattern has a corrispondent physical pattern.
                > Let's see if The Old Testament spoke and prophetised about The MashiYah (MessiYah) suffering and dying of a Sacrifical Death, AS a Passover Lamb, and AS an Offering and Atonement for the sin of many.
                > ISAYAH CHAPTER 53
                >  1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of YHWH (Yahweh) revealed?
                > (Please, check: Yahchanan / Johh 12:38; Romans 1:16; 10:16; 1 Corinthians 1:18)
                >  2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: He hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
                > (Please, check: Yachanan / John Mark 9:12)
                >  3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from Him; He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
                > (Please, check: Yahchanan / John 1:10-11; Hebrews 4:15)
                >  4 Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of The Mighty One, and afflicted.
                > (Please, check: Mattithyah / Matthew 8:17; Hebrews 9:28; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:24)
                >  5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.
                > (Please, check: Romans 4:25; 1 Corinthians 5:13; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:24; 3:18)
                >  6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to His own way; and YHWH (Yahweh) hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
                > (Please, check: 1 Kepha / Peter 2:25)
                >  7 He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not his mouth: He is brought as a Lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth.
                > (Please, check: Mattithyah / Matthew 26:63; 27:12,14; Yahchanan / John Mark 14:61; 15:5; Acts 8:32; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:23)
                >  8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare His generation? For He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of My People was He stricken.
                > (Please, check Daniel 9:26)
                >  9 And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His Death; because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.
                > (Please, check: Mattithyah / Matthew 27:57-58,60; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:22; 1 Yahchanan / John 3:5)
                >  10 Yet it pleased YHWH (Yahweh) to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief: when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His Seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of YHWH (Yahweh) shall prosper in His hand.
                > (Please, check: Romans 6:9; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Ephesians 1:5,9; 2 Thessalonians 1:11; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:24)
                >  11 He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied: by His knowledge shall my Righteous Servant justify many; for He shall bear their iniquities.
                > (Please, check: Yahchanan / John 17:3; Romans 5:15-19; 2 Kepha / Peter 1:3; 1 Yahchanan / John 2:1)
                >  12 Therefore will I divide Him a portion with the Great, and He shall divide the spoil with the Strong; because He hath poured out His soul unto death: and He was numbered with the transgressors; and He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
                > (Please, check: Yahchanan / John Mark 15:28; Luke 22:37; 23:34; Romans 8:34; Philippians 2:9; Colossians 2:15; Hebrews 7:25; 9:24; 1 Yahchanan / John 2:1)
                >
                > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
                > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
                > Carlo Tognoni
                > BYT YHWH
                > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
                > www.byt-yhwh.org
                > =====================================================================
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael yehochanan@...
                > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 10:53:53 PM
                > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?
                >
                >
                > Shalom Bro. Carlo,
                > I am glad that you understand my pointthat the life and ministry of Yehoshua (including his execution) is the sacrifice for us. My words could easily be confused with the scoffers who have recently come in the room bashing New Testament teachings. Thank you for actually reading my words.
                > I do not dispute at all that he died as a part of the Yah's plan for salvation. My only pointis that I do not believe (what I consider to be) the Christian concept of Yehoshua somehow representing an altar sacrifice as atonement for sin. The execution of Yehoshua has absolutely nothing to do with the Torah practice of animal sacrifice. The allusions of Yeshua to being the Lamb/Pesach of Yah and the sacrificial lamb on Yom Kippur are purely allegorical. The only thing I want to show in this thread is evidencethat the Messiah's complete life itselfwas the atonement and that Yah never required the Messiah to be killed as a sort of altar sacrifice. So, the focus is not whether or not the Messiah atoned for the sins (of true believers) of the world. The issue is whether his lifewas the atonement or was his death a sort of human altar sacrifice.
                > Unlike the majority of the people you debate in this forum, I did actually read all of your verses that you painstaking posted in response to me. I hate when I take time to write a long post or email and someone replies without reading what I said or they would ignore my questions. So I have to keep repeating myself. I have seen this done to your over and over in this forum. And, like in the past, if I am incorrect, I will recant my opinion and give thanks to YHWH that He is opened my eyes to more of the Truth. Now, let us reason with the Scriptures.
                > The verses you posted are of two types. The first type support what we both believe--that being--that his life and execution are part of his sacrifice. The other type gives examples where it appears that his literal execution is a type of human/animal sacrifice. This is what I dispute.
                > First of all, his execution does not satisfy the Torah requirements for being an offering. His Offering was purely spiritual. The fact that his physical body was beaten and bruised excludes the Messiah from being a physical sacrifice. I will not quote the dozens of verses that clearly say that no sacrifice may be offered to Yah with a spot or blemish of any kind. And when we inspect the New Testament writings, we read where it make sure that we know that he satisfied the requirements on the spiritual level, not the physical. It says that he was spiritually without blemish (without sin). This satisfied that spiritual requirement of being without blemish. I Peter 1:19-21
                > 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
                > Now take note of the word as of in the verse. In the Greek text, we see the word hos and in the Aramaic Peshitta, we see the word domumawhich both mean likenessand similitude.Hosea 12:10says: I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. That verse explicitly says that his life (culminating with this death) directly corresponded spiritually to the offering of the Pesach lamb. In both cases, the pesach lamb did no harm in his life, was spotless, was executed for others benefit and did not put up any resistant to his own destruction. So, the New Testament uses this parallel to explain the sacrifice that Yehoshua made for mankind. The verses you quoted from the Gospels only call him the Lamb and do not directly imply that his death atones for anything. The only verses that say that say that his actual, physical death corresponds to the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifices are the
                > writing of Paul and the Book of Hebrews. I just showed you that Peter explicitlysays that this is allegorical (a similitude). I checked that Aramaic (my preference) and the Greek and they both say that Peter taught this. But what about the writings of Paul and Hebrews? Well, let read what Peter says about Paul's writings. 2Peter 3:15-16And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
                > I do not quote this to dispute your knowledge of Torah or faith in YHWH. My point is that Peter clearly states that Paul's style of writing cannot be taking literally in many places. You quoted several verses that says that Yehoshua's execution literally was similar to the animal sacrifices except that the Messiah's sacrifice was eternally effective while the animal sacrifice did not cleans people forever. But, we are warned by Peter to not take everything that Paul says literally. So, now I will inspect a few of the verse to show that Paul's verses are allegorical.
                > So, let us look at one verse you posted as a prime example. This should be sufficient to show that the concept of death and blood and other such words are allegorical in the New Testament writings. The other verses can all be view allegorically. For example, when it says he offered himself up, it does not necessarily mean as a martyr. Paul says over and over that this means you lifestyle and deeds. Paul taught that being a living sacrificeis pleasing to God. So, there is much evidence in the New Testament that you a person does not have to die to be a sacrifice. And we also read in the Tanakh that Yah desires obedience, not sacrifice. I will not go to deep into that at this time. My point is that offering yourself updoes not mean being killed. If you believe that, then we just have a different of opinion on definitions. So, I will just stick to the written word and see what happens.Romans 5:6-116 For when we were yet without strength, in due time
                > MashiYah (MessiYah) died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But The mighty One commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, MashiYah (MessiYah) died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to The Mighty One by the Death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be Saved by His Life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in The mighty One through our Master YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), by Whom we have now received the atonement..
                > The references in the book of Romans and Hebrews carry the most force. The reason is because these verses make direct reference to the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice, and strong terms like blood anddeath. The reason such strong terms are used is to generate emotion in the mind of the reader--not to convey a literal account. So, what evidence do I have that the terms blood anddeathcan be interpreted symbolically? It is because the Messiah himself used them that way.BLOODMatthew 26:27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this IS my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.First, we see that he refers to HIS BLOOD in allegorical terms. MORE IMPORTANTLY, he is say that IT IS shed. He did not say that IT WILL BEshed. He said it IS shed. This is present tense, not future. Why did he says this in the present tense and not the future. ALLEGORICAL. Spirituality is not
                > dependant on time. Here are few more examples of allegorical speak which, if taken literally, is an abomination. John 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
                > How does a person eat the flesh and drink the bloodof the Messiah. He says right there that you must do it to have eternal life. Again, allegorical. If you look throughout the New Testament writings, the term fleshalways means desire. When applied to the Messiah, it means the desire to please the Creator and when applied to men, it means the desire to please oneself.. The term blood is also used in an allegorical sense as well. One of the ways it is used is to mean guilt.
                > Next are some verses in which the deathis used allegorically.DEATHRom 6:8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Rom 6:11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 8:10And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
                > In that verse, we see that the body can be dead even though the person is still living!Rom 14:8-9For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
                > Here, we see that he died, resurrected and revived to be lord over the dead and living, not as an altar sacrifice for sin.
                > The only verse that says that says that the Messiah died for our sins in any way in the next verse. As you can see, the issue is not his death being a vicarious atonement. Again, I will not go into the real meaning of the verse. My only point in this point is that his death has nothing to do with fulfilling the Torah ritual of sacrifice.1Corinthians 15:3-4For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 
                > In addition, we also see other allegorical terms associated with alter sacrifice like sweet odor. We only see that term with important altar sacrifices. Yet, in the New Testament, it is used allegorically.2Corinthians 2:15For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: Philippians 4:18But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
                > I will not attempt to go into the esoteric meaning of such concepts. My only focus in this thread is to show that those verses saying that his death is a sort of Pesach or Yom Kippur sacrifice is purely allegorical. The reason that it meaning those two High Holy days is to show that the sacrifice of the Messiah accomplished eternally what they rituals were set up to do year after year. This is why we read in the book of Ezekiel that those Holy Days will be keep only as a memorial, not to cleans us from sin.
                > In conclusion, the purpose of this post is the give evidence that the reference to the Messiah being substitute animal sacrifice is purely allegorical. Human sacrifice is forbidden in Torah and the Messiah did manifest as a human. That fact alone excludes him from being an sacrificial offering in the same sense as the animals were. But, the book of Hebrews clearly substitutes Yehoshua (a human) for the sacrificial goat on Yom Kippur which is forbidden in Torah. In additional, even if we ignore that fact, his physical body was not fit to be a proper offering to HaShem because it was bruised.
                > On the contrary, when viewed spiritually, we see a direct parallel of the life of the Messiah to the animal sacrifices. Due to the length of this post, I will not list the numerous parallels. The point is that the literary style of that time used graphic imagery and symbolism to general the appropriate emotional response in the reader. Those who studied under the Master, and later, Paul and the Apostles, were train in the meaning of these symbolisms. The masses can only interpret them literally because they do not know the symbolic meaning. Therefore, they read the Scriptures as if it is a history book because that is all they know. The massed read everything this way. They have never been trained to understand spiritual symbolism.
                > The Master explained why he taught this way to his disciples. When he departed, his disciples taught their disciples in the same manner. So, when the New Testament was written, it was written only for the disciples of Yehoshua. Only the disciples can possibly understand the deep, esoteric teachings in the books. So, read exactly what Master Yehoshua says to his disciples.Mat 13:10-18¶ And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
                > My point is that we may assume that the Scripture says what it says--that meaning--that they are literal and purely historical. But Yehoshua clearly states that the inner teachings are given using symbolic language that can only be understood by those devoted to him. So, I do understand how you can interpret the words in the New Testament as saying that the Messiah will died as a sort of sacrifice. But, the symbolic meaning has far greater implications. At that level, we are actually given the spiritual instructions to achieve the state of sinlessness that is described in I John 3. So, the masses with have to wait for the resurrection of the dead to shed their sinful nature. But, the Master actually laid down teachings for his devotees to achieve this state of perfection in this lifetime before we die.
                > So keep in mind, my only point of contention is that the statements in the New Testament implying that the execution of Yehoshua is like an animal sacrifice is purely allegorical. This post is just an overview. Since this is an deep issue, it will be impossible to prove what I say conclusively. If you inspect the Scriptures, you will be able to understand the inner meaning at a basic level. However, to understand the exact meaning, it must come from one of the direct apostolic lineage with the only exception being if you get it directly from the Master himself like Paul did. But, just reading the Bible on our own will not work.
                > From the very beginning, the Master taught his inner circle of disciples differently than the rest of the believers. This applies to this very subject. Therefore, not understanding this matter does not mean that we are not true disciples of the Master, it just means that we have are not privy to the inner teachings yet. So, the focus is now is on Torah observance and cleansing our hearts of self-centered desires. When he have spiritually matures, then we can be trusted with the inner teachings. But, just accepting Yehoshua as Messiah and keeping the religion given to Israel will not suffice to receive the High Wisdom.
                > One last thing before I close. As I type this, I keep finding more information. So, I will wait to respond further if you have questions. But, one last thing I did want to bring to your attention is Ephesians 5--the whole chapter. Please read the chapter because what I say will not make sense unless you do and I do not want to make this post even longer by pasting it. When you read it, you see that Paul is describing the marriage relationship. But, in verse 32 he says this is allegorical and then applies it to physical marriage. So, his real message is spiritual and has nothing to do with this world. In that particular case, the allegory can be applied to a physical marriage. But there is no way I can reconcile KILLING A MESSIAH with the Torah.
                > So, in your response, you will have to show me where killing a human as a sacrifice is allowed in the Torah. I am not yet able to do so and that is why I dropped the literally belief of the Messiah being a human sacrifice. In fact, it is that teaching that led me and others to reject the New Testament as a whole. It actually worked out because, for about two years, all I did was focus on Hebrew and the Tanakh which made me a better disciple of Yehoshua. But, when I discovered the allegorical nature of the Bible, then I was able reconcile that teachings. But, I verify ALL THINGS with the Torah. I put the Torah above all writings. If something contradicts Torah, then I reject it or look deeper into the matter. My opinion is based on my zeal to harmonize the New Testament with the Torah. So, please show me in the Torah where killing the Messiah is allowed.
                > Shalom,
                > Yehochanan
                > P.S. I know this post is long. So I will summarize the points of focus for you to respond to. These are the points I made in my LONG post. These are the things that lead me to my opinion.I disagree with the literal interpretation given in the book of Hebrews that the Messiah is a sacrifice because:
                > 1. Human sacrifice is forbidden in Torah.
                > 2. Yehoshua's flesh was bruised making him an unfit sacrifice according to Torah law.I believe the following instead:
                > 1. Yehoshua fit all the Torah requirements of a spiritual sacrifice. For example, his purity corresponded to being without blemish.
                > 2. The New Testament teaching on the Yehoshua being an altar sacrifice is symbolic and only understood by the inner initiates. The masses of believers are only given the general understanding in parable form.
                > THE END
                >
                > --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, BYT YHWH bytyhwh@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Shalom Yehochanan!
                > >  
                > > I fully agree with you that YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Life and Ministry was ALSO part of His Sacrifice for us, just as His Disciples' lives and ministries are.
                > >  
                > > But, contrary to what you said, I believe that His Death (that we have to REMEMBER, at His Memorial, at Passover time, taking unleavened bread and wine, as symbols of HIS Body and Blood, as He instructed His Disciples to do, until He will come back) was ALSO part of His Sacrifice for us, just as His Apostles clearly Understood.
                > >  
                > > Here below are some of their Inspired Writings about it:
                > >  
                > > Yahchanan (John) 1:29 -
                > >  29 The next day Yahchanan seeth YHWSU (Yahshua) coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of  The Mighty One, Which taketh away the sin of the world.
                > >  36 And looking upon YHWSU (Yahshua) as He walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of The Mighty One!
                > >  
                > > Yahchanan (John) 3:14-21 -
                > >  14 And as Mosheh lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up:
                > >  15 That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
                > >  16 For The Mighty One so loved the world, that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life.
                > >  17 For The Mighty One sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.
                > >  18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of The Mighty One.
                > >  19 And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil.
                > >  20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the Light, neither cometh to the Light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
                > >  21 But he that doeth Truth cometh to the Light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in The Mighty One.
                > >  
                > > Romans 5:6-11 -
                > >  6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time MashiYah (MessiYah) died for the ungodly.
                > >  7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
                > >  8 But The mighty One commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, MashiYah (MessiYah) died for us.
                > >  9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
                > >  10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to The Mighty One by the Death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be Saved by His Life.
                > >  11 And not only so, but we also joy in The mighty One through our Master YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), by Whom we have now received the atonement.
                > >   
                > > Romans 6:1-10 -
                > >  1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
                > >  2 The Mighty One forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
                > >  3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), were baptized into His Death?
                > >  4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as MashiYah (MessiYah) was raised up from the dead by the Glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
                > >  5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His Death, we shall be also in the likeness of His Resurrection:
                > >  6 Knowing this, that our old man is impaled with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin..
                > >  7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
                > >  8 Now if we be dead with MashiYah (MessiYah), we believe that we shall also live with Him:
                > >  9 Knowing that MashiYah (MessiYah) being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
                > >  10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto The Mighty One.
                > >  
                > > 1 Corinthians  5:7 -
                > >  7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even MashiYah (MessiYah) our Passover is sacrificed for us:
                > >  
                > > Hebrews 2:9, 13-18 -
                > >  9 But we see YHWSU (Yahshua), Who was made a little lower than the malakim (angels) for the suffering of death, crowned with Glory and Honour; that he by the grace of The Mighty One should taste death for every man.
                > >  13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which The Mighty One hath given Me.
                > >  14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
                > >  15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
                > >  16 For verily He took not on Him the nature of malakim (angels); but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.
                > >  17 Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to The Mighty One, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
                > >  18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted..
                > >  
                > > Hebrews 7:24-28 -
                > >  24 But this man, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangeable Priesthood.
                > >  25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto The Mighty One by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.
                > >  26 For such an High Priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made Higher than the Heavens;
                > >  27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this He did once, when He offered up Himself.
                > >  28 For the Law maketh

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              • BYT YHWH
                Shalom Yehochanan! Thank you very much again for your message, and your time spent in studying this Important Issue. Without going into Scriptural details,
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 2, 2008
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                  Shalom Yehochanan!

                   

                  Thank you very much again for your message, and your time spent in studying this Important Issue.

                   

                  Without going into Scriptural details, that, YHWH (Yahweh) Willing, I reserve to do later, because it would take a longer Scriptural Study, now I would like to kindly tell you that seems that you are doing the same mistake, on the "Spiritual" side, that you said Christians do on the "physical" side of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice.

                   

                  It seems that you are "Spiritualizing" EVERY aspect of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice, as if He did NOT have to live a physical life as a human being, as if He did NOT have to overcome His human flesh, as if He did NOT have to suffer and die physically.

                   

                  Let me ask you how would you "Spiritualize" YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Command, at the Passover time, for the Memorial of His Death?

                   

                  Would the unleavened bread, that He told His Disciples to eat, symbolize His "Spiritual" body, and NOT His physical body, that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed?

                   

                  Would the wine, that He told His Disciples to drink, symbolize His "Spiritual" blood, and NOT His physical blood, the Blood of The New Covenant shed for many?

                   

                  How could ALL that be ONLY Spiritual, and ALL the physical aspects denied?

                   

                  What I see written in The Scrittures are BOTH Spiritual and physical aspects of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice. And I believe that NEITHER of them have to be denied.

                   

                  May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!

                   

                  True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),

                   

                  Carlo Tognoni

                   

                  BYT YHWH

                  The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua

                  www.byt-yhwh.org

                   

                  =====================================================================

                   

                   

                   

                     



                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael <yehochanan@...>
                  To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 10:39:44 PM
                  Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?

                  Shalom to All Who Read This,

                  For all who read this post, please read all of the verses and quotes. I apologize for the length of the post. But, this is not an easy subject to explain with a verse or two. I obviously do not have the wisdom to explain the most advanced things in a short parable like the Master. My explanations are based primarily on the written texts and not my own reasoning or interpretations. So, if they are read in detail, you will not understand my thoughts.

                  In addition, all quotes are from the King James Bible for convenience. I personally consider the Hebrew Tanakh and the Aramaic Peshitta as my source texts. I am in no way endorsing this translation nor do I believe the names of the Creator and His son are Lord, God or Jesus. I just pasted the text from the online Bible text. My suggestion is that you read the verses in the version of your choice--preferably the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek texts.

                   

                  Carlo said, There is no whatsoever doubt, and I fully Agree about Spiritual, Symbolic, Allegorical, Typical way of speaking ALSO used in reference to the Sacrifice of YHWSU (Yahshua), as you have well explained. But, as you know very well, ANY Spiritual Pattern has a correspondent physical pattern.

                  This is absolutely correct. However, the point I am making in this thread is that spirit is separate from the corporeal. The spiritual pattern is completely spiritual and the corresponding spiritual pattern is the physical sacrificial rites of Israel--not the execution of physical body of Yehoshua. Also, the physical death/execution of the Messiah did not fulfill the requirements of being a Pesach/Passover or Yom Kippur sacrifice on the physical or spiritual level. We will show in this post that the complete atonement was all performed at the spiritual level. All of the actions were done at the spiritual level. These are the only points I am making in this thread.

                  The physical body of Yehoshua does not even come into the equation. The confusion is over the meaning of apparently corporeal terms like blood, death, body, and the like. So, when we read the verses that say that Yehoshua offered his body as a sacrifice, we interpret each words as being physical. Using physical definitions, we have no choice but to interpret Yehoshua as a physical sacrifice. What I will show in this post is that the physical correspondence is the literal rituals of the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifices while the spiritual correspondence is the very act of Yehoshua instituting the New Covenant in the heavenly/spiritual tabernacle.

                  I will get into the body of this message shortly. But, first, I would like to review the exactly what the new covenant is.

                  Jeremiah 31:31-34Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

                  There are many other verses in the Tanakh that say the same thing--mostly in the books of Isaiah and Ezekiel. As we see, the real new covenant is instituted when Israel--and Gentiles who are yoked to the Covenant--have their minds purified and perfected, the Torah is put in their hearts, and their sins are forgiven.

                  We also read about this perfect state in the New Testament--particul arly I John 3. I request that all who read this post review that short chapter. In that chapter, we read that true disciples of Yehoshua will attained a state of sinlessness and be given the title, Sons of God. We are taught in the Book of John by the Messiah that we will attained perfection (John 17:23). And when we check the Aramaic and Greek, they both says perfection/completi on. At this point, we will truly be brethren with the Messiah (Hebrews 2:11).

                  It is taught in the churches that we cannot attain this state of perfection until the resurrection of the dead. However, Yehoshua taught that we can attain this state in this lifetime. This is the whole subject of I John 3. This is what is described in the Book of Hebrews (mainly) and throughout the New Testament as a whole. So, we learn that the sacrificial system is in reality as physical representation of the spiritual actions that occur when one is passed from death to life (John 5:24).

                  Keep in mind, I said that the New Testament teaches that ministry of Yehoshua is what saved and atone, not his death on the cross. The Master himself said that he who hears (obeys) his word and believe in him has eternal life. It is not his death that atones but his teachings and ministry.

                  John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

                  I checked the whole Tanakh and New Testament.. There is not one verse that says that actual execution of the execution of physical body of the Son did anything. All that did is make Yehoshua the lord of the living and the death. The issue is never about atonement.. Paul says this in the following verse.

                  Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

                  Now, I will show that allegorical statements in the Pauline writing and the Book of Hebrews merely details the realization of the new covenant (that being the transformation of the believers). We will see that the physical body of Yehoshua was not the sacrifice and has nothing to do with the animal sacrificial system at all. In order to show that, all we need to do is look throughout the New Testament to get the correct definitions of the words. Then we can correctly understand the statements. I will focus on chapters 8 and 9 of the Book of Hebrews with references to the words of Paul.

                  The context of chapters 8 and 9 in the book of Hebrews is the Yom Kippur offering. Some of the requirements performing the Yom Kippur sacrifice are:

                  1. A Temple/Tabernacle (with vessels and compartments such as the Holy of Holies)

                  2. A High Priest

                  3. Two goats/lambs (Yehoshua is the sacrificial lamb and the Satan is the Azazel that is sent away).

                  Keep in mind, the New Testament teaches that Yehoshua fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice once and for all. As I noted before, he did not fulfill this with his physical body because there was no physical tabernacle or temple. We cannot flip back and forth from physical to spiritual. Either the whole thing was physical or the whole thing was spiritual. This is what Paul taught.

                  1Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

                  We humans want to make everything physical. We demand a physical God so we choose Jesus. Similarly, we want a make the spiritual sacrifice of Yehoshua a physical event which it is not. As unbelievable at it may seem, the whole sacrifice for our sins was performed in the spiritual realm and has nothing to do with the physical. I will show examples of this in the scriptures later on in the post.

                  We will see in the Book of Hebrews that it contrasts the physical and the spiritual aspect of Yom Kippur. The physical rites were done by regular humans and physical animals were killed in a physical tabernacle while Yehoshua did the spiritual rites with a spiritual temple, a spiritual sacrifice and the like. The Book of Hebrew goes to great detail to show that the sacrifice is physical in complete contrast to the physical sacrifice of ancient Israel.

                  So, we will now show that New Testament teaches that everything concerning the Yom Kippur observance and the Tabernacle/Temple is merely a physical representation of the spiritual reality.. This everything include the High Priest, the blood, death, sacrifice, vessels and the like are all spiritual. With this knowledge, we can read scriptures detailing the death of Yehoshua in the proper context--the spiritual context.

                   

                  The Tabernacle

                  (Spiritual or Physical)

                   

                  Hebrews 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

                  As we see, the first tabernacle was physical. This is the same tabernacle that Moshe saw in his vision (Exodus 25:9). But the context of Hebrews 9 is that it is talking about a spiritual (non-physical) tabernacle. Physical sacrifices are done in the physical tabernacle. Spiritual sacrifices are done in a spiritual tabernacle. The physical body of Yehoshua is not in the spiritual tabernacle nor was his physical body sacrificed. The whole thing is spiritual. This theme is throughout the New Testament. The Tabernacle in which Yehoshua performed his sacrifice is Spiritual.

                  Hebrews 9:23-24 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

                  And no, a human sacrifice is not better than an animal sacrifice--not even the body of the Messiah.

                   

                  THE BLOOD

                  (Spiritual or Physical)

                  One verse that leads Christians to believe that the blood that made atonement for us was physical is the following.

                  Hebrews 9:12-15 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

                  First notice that it says that he was offered without spot. The book is lying if is saying that his physical body was without spot. But, it is not talking about his physical body at all. It is his spiritual body that is the subject of this book. To imply this is speaking of the physical takes it out of context. Later, we will see that all the other words like blood and death are also spiritual.

                  This section of the Book of Hebrew that I just posted above is talking about how Yehoshua institutes the TRUE NEW COVENANT. This must be done in the same pattern of the Torah with the different being that this is all on the spiritual level.

                  Let us look in the Torah and see what happens with the blood. We will see that if Yehoshua performed the spiritual sacrifice of Yom Kippur once and for all, he must sprinkle the blood on the vessels and the people if the whole sacrifice is in accordance with the Law.

                  Exodus 24:6-8 And Moses took half of the blood, and put [it] in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

                  We can see that the Book of Hebrews is a making a direct reference to the Torah to show that the spiritual rite of atonement of believers directly parallels the physical rite originally performed by Moses.

                  The Torah is definitely talking about physical blood. But, is the Book of Hebrews talking about his physical blood? According to popular belief, the Book of Hebrews is also talking about physical blood. They believe the blood of the Old Covenant is animal blood and the blood of the New Testament is Yehoshua's physical blood. But both are physical. The New Testament cannot possibly be talking about physical blood because it is not talking about his physical body.

                  In addition, for in order for us to a part of the new covenant, we must be sprinkled with this blood. Yet, the New Testament does say what we are sprinkled with blood. So, we must ask ourselves if were are sprinkled with the spiritual blood or the physical blood of Yehoshua. The obvious answer is spiritual blood. It is spiritual blood that is shed and sprinkled on us to cleanse us.

                  Let's see an example given by Peter that the sprinkling of the blood of the Messiah cannot be interpreted as being physical blood. Again, the spiritual tabernacle only deals with spiritual blood.

                  1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

                  We see clearly that the term sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ is not literally speaking about his physical blood. Therefore, we know that both physical and spiritual blood exist. Which one was spilled in the spiritual tabernacle? Yes, the spiritual blood. Physical blood nor physical flesh can enter the spiritual tabernacle.

                  1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

                  Again, the correspondence between the two is the physical rites performed by the Israelites compared to the spiritual rite performed by Yehoshua. The contrast is ALWAYS between the Hebrew high priest and our high priest, Yehoshua, in the spiritual temple. The reason I quote the Torah is to give the exact context. The Book of Hebrews corresponds everything back to the Torah sacrifices-- not the execution of the Messiah at Calvary. It is not even mentioned. The issue is the fact that Yehoshua ascended to the spiritual, heavenly tabernacle to do a spiritual sacrifice. And this leads to the next topic.

                  THE SACRIFICE

                  (Physical or Spiritual)

                  It has been said that the physical body of Yehoshua was the sacrifice. However, the concept of spiritual sacrifice exists in the New Testament. We already showed above that there is a spiritual tabernacle, and spiritual blood. Now, is there a spiritual sacrifice? We will now show that only spiritual sacrifices are performed in the spiritual tabernacle. And we will also show that all the references to Yehoshua being a sacrifice are also spiritual/allegoric al.

                  1Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

                  So, we just read that the concept of spiritual sacrifices exist. Now, let see if Yehoshua was himself a physical sacrifice or a spiritual sacrifice. In order for Yehoshua to be a proper sacrifice, he must be without blemish or spot. This is stated in the Torah concerning the sacrifice of sheep, goats, rams and lambs and is repeated by Peter. This is ESPECIALLY true of the Pesach/Passover Lamb which the Messiah is said to represent.

                  Exodus 12:2-5 This month [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you. Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth [day] of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of [their] fathers, a lamb for an house: And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take [it] according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take [it] out from the sheep, or from the goats:

                  1Peter 1:17-19 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

                  The Torah is clearly saying that the Pesach lamb must be without a physical blemish. Peter says that OUR Lamb is also without blemish. Is Peter implying that Yehoshua fulfilled the Torah commandment to be without physical blemish? NO. Obviously, Yehoshua is without blemish in the sense that he is without sin. This means that he is without a spiritual blemish because he is the spiritual sacrifice. It is the spiritual aspect that his sacrificed, not the physical. He physical body cannot be a fit sacrifice because he was bruised by being beaten. So, the only possibility is spiritual.

                  Another thing that the spiritual understanding teaches us is that Yehoshua also fulfills that requirement of being a Lamb of the first year. This is because he is the firstborn of Creation. Hence, his sacrifice occurred within one year of him becoming the firstborn of creation.

                  THE BODY OF YEHOSHUA

                  (Physical or Spiritual)

                  Up to this point, we have seen that there is a spiritual counterpart for the objects associated with the physical tabernacle such as the blood and lamb/sacrifice. But, what about the body of Yehoshua? Was the physical body sacrificed or the spiritual? Let go to the scriptures so see of the Body of Messiah is physical or spiritual.

                  1Corinthians 15:39-48 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds. [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.. [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory. So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.

                  So, the question is: Was it the physical body that was sacrificed in the heavenly tabernacle or the spiritual? We see clearly that it is the spiritual body that was in the spiritual tabernacle-- not the physical. As we showed above, a corporeal body has no place in spiritual realm nor are physical sacrifices offered there. The eternal sacrifice is spiritual for only spirit is eternal. Truly, the Messiah's physical body was nothing more than an lump of dirt. Yet, his spiritual body is eternal and holy.

                   

                  DEATH

                  (Physical or Spiritual)

                  Many of us believe that death is when the physical body stops operating.. This is a physical death. But, what about a spiritual death? Is there such a thing. So far in this post, we have seen spiritual counterparts to common physical concepts. My thesis is that there all actions and objects in the spiritual sanctuary are spiritual. The sacrifice is definitely killed in the tabernacle. If animals faced a physical death in the physical tabernacle, then my thesis implies that there must a spiritual death in the spiritual sanctuary. So, let us see if there is a spiritual usage of the concept of death in the New Testament.

                  Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

                  Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

                  Is Paul speaking about a physical burial and death?

                  No, it is spiritual. There are two forms of spiritual death in the New Testament. One is spiritual death in which one dies to his own desires and lusts and becomes completely devoted to YHWH our Father by means of Yehoshua HaMashiach. We just read about that one. The other death is called the second death which eternal separation from the Creator in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14). The spiritual death is obviously applied to Yehoshua who died for our sins. But his death was not in his physical body. It was in his spiritual body. Contrary to the corporeal definition, spiritual death and rebirth is a transition from a lower state from a higher, exalted state. His low state was caused by him bearing our sins and he was subsequently exalted to the Supreme state by His Father.

                   

                  This post is getting ridiculously long so will summary at this time. I can give many more examples of spiritual counterparts to common physical ideas.

                  What I hoped to show in this post that the execution of the physical body of Yehoshua did not fulfill the requirements of being a Pesach/Passover or Yom Kippur sacrifice as atonement sin on the physical or spiritual level. It fails on the physical level because human sacrifice is forbidden in Torah and his body was blemished. Also, the Yom Kippur sacrifice, which the Book of Hebrews says he was, must be done in a Sanctuary--not on a cross or stake. Also, the sacrifice is only effective on those who accept it that day and have the blood sprinkled on them. One cannot decide the day after Yom Kippur that he wants to be cleansed that year. He must present at the time of the ritual.

                  On the contrary, Yehoshua fulfilled all the required of the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice in the spiritual sanctuary with his spiritual body. We showed that the New Testament gives a spiritual counterpart to every aspect of the physical sacrifices of Pesach and Yom Kippur. We did that by showing that terms like death, blood, body, tabernacle and the like all have spiritual counterparts. Therefore, when we read the same verses again, we know that it is speaking on the spiritual terms and not physical.

                  The challenge for those who have this information is to pray to the Father to reveal the true meaning of these concepts. I only give the hint that concepts like death, blood, body, and tabernacle are spiritual terms. But, what does spiritual tabernacle mean? What is spiritual blood? What is a spiritual body? This…I will not reveal in the forum. As I said before, the inner teachings are only for the true disciples of Yehoshua. The Master imparted these teachings to his apostles and the apostles passed it on from generation to generation..

                  In the previous post, I showed using the parable of the sower that Yehoshua did not teach everyone the same thing. The masses were taught basic things (like the Beatitudes) but the inner teachings of the parables were only explained to his disciples. This same thing applies today. So, unless one receives this wisdom via the Holy Spirit, he must obtained a true spiritual teacher. Paul taught this. There is no way a person will just pick up the Bible and figure it out without the Holy Spirit or a proper teacher. This is obvious reason for all the confusion being interpreted from the Bible in first place. And since I am not anointed to teach, I will not give up the inner teachings. But, many people know these things--not just me.

                  Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

                   

                  Lastly, keep in mind that post does not change that fact that Yehoshua died for our sins and makes complete atonement for us. The difference I made was in the meaning of such phrases. I also wanted to point out that the scriptures are not limited to our corporeal reality. For those who have a good knowledge of the Scriptures, this post hintd at the fact that there is a deeper meaning to subjects we believed our whole life and thought were simple. Another point of this thread is to show how the New Testament is perfectly in line with the Torah at the spiritual level. Lastly, I am committed to extirpating the Christian doctrines that many of us brought over with us from churchianity. They are hard to let go of. It take years and a lot of hard work and study to release those false doctrines--not to mention courage.

                  I close this post with the words of Paul.

                  1Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

                  Best Wishes,

                  Yehochanan

                  P.S.

                  John asked me, Please explain how Isaiah 53:5 can speak of Messiah's wounding, bruising and stripes and yet Isaiah 53:10 says, "thou shall make his soul an offering for sin". It seems to me that YHWH accepted him as an "offering for sin" while in a bruised state.

                  Easy, it says his SOUL/Nefesh was the offering, not the physical body which is the thesis of this article. Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah being a Pesach or Yom Kippur sacrifice. It is only at the spiritual level (nefesh) that Messiah is an offering, not the physical body level.

                  The only thing I set out to prove in this article is that the New Testament gives spiritual definitions. When they are applied to the verses in the Tanakh and the New Testament concerning the sacrifice of the Messiah, the understanding differs from that of the Christians who view everything from the physical level. Even their heaven and hell is physical.

                  THE END


                  --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Shalom Yehochanan!
                  > Thank you very much for your kind reply!
                  > There is no whatsoever doubt, and I fully Agree about Spiritual, Symbolic, Allegorical, Typical way of speaking ALSO used in reference to the Sacrifice of YHWSU (Yahshua), as you have well explained.
                  > But, as you know very well, ANY Spiritual Pattern has a corrispondent physical pattern.
                  > Let's see if The Old Testament spoke and prophetised about The MashiYah (MessiYah) suffering and dying of a Sacrifical Death, AS a Passover Lamb, and AS an Offering and Atonement for the sin of many.
                  > ISAYAH CHAPTER 53
                  >  1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of YHWH (Yahweh) revealed?
                  > (Please, check: Yahchanan / Johh 12:38; Romans 1:16; 10:16; 1 Corinthians 1:18)
                  >
                   2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: He hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
                  > (Please, check: Yachanan / John Mark 9:12)
                  >  3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from Him; He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
                  > (Please, check: Yahchanan / John 1:10-11; Hebrews 4:15)
                  >  4 Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of The Mighty One, and afflicted.
                  > (Please, check: Mattithyah / Matthew 8:17; Hebrews 9:28; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:24)
                  >  5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.
                  > (Please, check: Romans 4:25; 1 Corinthians
                  5:13; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:24; 3:18)
                  >  6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to His own way; and YHWH (Yahweh) hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
                  > (Please, check: 1 Kepha / Peter 2:25)
                  >  7 He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not his mouth: He is brought as a Lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth.
                  > (Please, check: Mattithyah / Matthew 26:63; 27:12,14; Yahchanan / John Mark 14:61; 15:5; Acts 8:32; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:23)
                  >  8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare His generation? For He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of My People was He stricken.
                  > (Please, check Daniel 9:26)
                  >  9 And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His Death; because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His
                  mouth.
                  > (Please, check: Mattithyah / Matthew 27:57-58,60; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:22; 1 Yahchanan / John 3:5)
                  >  10 Yet it pleased YHWH (Yahweh) to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief: when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His Seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of YHWH (Yahweh) shall prosper in His hand.
                  > (Please, check: Romans 6:9; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Ephesians 1:5,9; 2 Thessalonians 1:11; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:24)
                  >  11 He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied: by His knowledge shall my Righteous Servant justify many; for He shall bear their iniquities.
                  > (Please, check: Yahchanan / John 17:3; Romans 5:15-19; 2 Kepha / Peter 1:3; 1 Yahchanan / John 2:1)
                  >  12 Therefore will I divide Him a portion with the Great, and He shall divide the spoil with the Strong; because He hath poured out His soul unto death: and He was numbered
                  with the transgressors; and He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
                  > (Please, check: Yahchanan / John Mark 15:28; Luke 22:37; 23:34; Romans 8:34; Philippians 2:9; Colossians 2:15; Hebrews 7:25; 9:24; 1 Yahchanan / John 2:1)
                  >
                  > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
                  > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
                  > Carlo Tognoni
                  > BYT YHWH
                  > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
                  > www.byt-yhwh. org
                  > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ===
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message ----
                  > From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael yehochanan@. ...
                  > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, June 1, 2008 10:53:53 PM
                  > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?
                  >
                  >
                  > Shalom Bro. Carlo,
                  > I am glad that you understand my pointthat the life and ministry of Yehoshua (including his execution) is the sacrifice for us. My words could easily be confused with the scoffers who have recently come in the room bashing New Testament teachings. Thank you for actually reading my words.
                  > I do not dispute at all that he died as a part of the Yah's plan for salvation. My only pointis that I do not believe (what I consider to be) the Christian concept of Yehoshua somehow representing an altar sacrifice as atonement for sin. The execution of Yehoshua has absolutely nothing to do with the Torah practice of animal sacrifice. The allusions of Yeshua to being the Lamb/Pesach of Yah and the sacrificial lamb on Yom Kippur are purely allegorical. The only thing I want to show in this thread is evidencethat the Messiah's complete life itselfwas the atonement and that Yah never required the Messiah to be killed as a sort
                  of altar sacrifice. So, the focus is not whether or not the Messiah atoned for the sins (of true believers) of the world. The issue is whether his lifewas the atonement or was his death a sort of human altar sacrifice.
                  > Unlike the majority of the people you debate in this forum, I did actually read all of your verses that you painstaking posted in response to me. I hate when I take time to write a long post or email and someone replies without reading what I said or they would ignore my questions. So I have to keep repeating myself. I have seen this done to your over and over in this forum. And, like in the past, if I am incorrect, I will recant my opinion and give thanks to YHWH that He is opened my eyes to more of the Truth. Now, let us reason with the Scriptures.
                  > The verses you posted are of two types. The first type support what we both believe--that being--that his life and execution are part of his sacrifice. The other type gives
                  examples where it appears that his literal execution is a type of human/animal sacrifice. This is what I dispute.
                  > First of all, his execution does not satisfy the Torah requirements for being an offering. His Offering was purely spiritual. The fact that his physical body was beaten and bruised excludes the Messiah from being a physical sacrifice. I will not quote the dozens of verses that clearly say that no sacrifice may be offered to Yah with a spot or blemish of any kind. And when we inspect the New Testament writings, we read where it make sure that we know that he satisfied the requirements on the spiritual level, not the physical. It says that he was spiritually without blemish (without sin). This satisfied that spiritual requirement of being without blemish. I Peter 1:19-21
                  > 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.But with the precious blood of
                  Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
                  > Now take note of the word as of in the verse. In the Greek text, we see the word hos and in the Aramaic Peshitta, we see the word domumawhich both mean likenessand similitude.Hosea 12:10says: I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. That verse explicitly says that his life (culminating with this death) directly corresponded spiritually to the offering of the Pesach lamb. In both cases, the pesach lamb did no harm in his life, was spotless, was executed for others benefit and did not put up any resistant to his own destruction. So, the New Testament uses this parallel to explain the sacrifice that Yehoshua made for mankind. The verses you quoted from the Gospels only call him the Lamb and do not
                  directly imply that his death atones for anything. The only verses that say that say that his actual, physical death corresponds to the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifices are the
                  > writing of Paul and the Book of Hebrews.. I just showed you that Peter explicitlysays that this is allegorical (a similitude). I checked that Aramaic (my preference) and the Greek and they both say that Peter taught this. But what about the writings of Paul and Hebrews? Well, let read what Peter says about Paul's writings. 2Peter 3:15-16And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
                  > I do not quote this to dispute your
                  knowledge of Torah or faith in YHWH. My point is that Peter clearly states that Paul's style of writing cannot be taking literally in many places. You quoted several verses that says that Yehoshua's execution literally was similar to the animal sacrifices except that the Messiah's sacrifice was eternally effective while the animal sacrifice did not cleans people forever. But, we are warned by Peter to not take everything that Paul says literally.. So, now I will inspect a few of the verse to show that Paul's verses are allegorical.
                  > So, let us look at one verse you posted as a prime example. This should be sufficient to show that the concept of death and blood and other such words are allegorical in the New Testament writings. The other verses can all be view allegorically. For example, when it says he offered himself up, it does not necessarily mean as a martyr. Paul says over and over that this means you lifestyle and deeds. Paul taught that
                  being a living sacrificeis pleasing to God. So, there is much evidence in the New Testament that you a person does not have to die to be a sacrifice. And we also read in the Tanakh that Yah desires obedience, not sacrifice. I will not go to deep into that at this time. My point is that offering yourself updoes not mean being killed. If you believe that, then we just have a different of opinion on definitions. So, I will just stick to the written word and see what happens.Romans 5:6-116 For when we were yet without strength, in due time
                  > MashiYah (MessiYah) died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But The mighty One commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, MashiYah (MessiYah) died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were
                  reconciled to The Mighty One by the Death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be Saved by His Life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in The mighty One through our Master YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), by Whom we have now received the atonement..
                  > The references in the book of Romans and Hebrews carry the most force. The reason is because these verses make direct reference to the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice, and strong terms like blood anddeath. The reason such strong terms are used is to generate emotion in the mind of the reader--not to convey a literal account. So, what evidence do I have that the terms blood anddeathcan be interpreted symbolically? It is because the Messiah himself used them that way.BLOODMatthew 26:27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this IS my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.First, we see that he
                  refers to HIS BLOOD in allegorical terms. MORE IMPORTANTLY, he is say that IT IS shed. He did not say that IT WILL BEshed. He said it IS shed. This is present tense, not future. Why did he says this in the present tense and not the future. ALLEGORICAL. Spirituality is not
                  > dependant on time. Here are few more examples of allegorical speak which, if taken literally, is an abomination. John 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
                  > How does a person eat the flesh and drink the bloodof the Messiah. He says right there that you must do it to have eternal life. Again, allegorical. If you look throughout the New Testament writings, the term fleshalways means desire. When applied to the Messiah, it means the desire to please the Creator and when applied to men, it means the desire to please oneself.. The term blood is also used in an allegorical sense as well. One of the ways it
                  is used is to mean guilt.
                  > Next are some verses in which the deathis used allegorically. DEATHRom 6:8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Rom 6:11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 8:10And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
                  > In that verse, we see that the body can be dead even though the person is still living!Rom 14:8-9For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
                  > Here, we see that he died, resurrected and revived to be lord over the dead and living, not as an altar sacrifice for sin.
                  > The only verse that says that says that the
                  Messiah died for our sins in any way in the next verse. As you can see, the issue is not his death being a vicarious atonement. Again, I will not go into the real meaning of the verse. My only point in this point is that his death has nothing to do with fulfilling the Torah ritual of sacrifice.1Corinthi ans 15:3-4For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 
                  > In addition, we also see other allegorical terms associated with alter sacrifice like sweet odor. We only see that term with important altar sacrifices. Yet, in the New Testament, it is used allegorically. 2Corinthians 2:15For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: Philippians 4:18But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things
                  [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
                  > I will not attempt to go into the esoteric meaning of such concepts. My only focus in this thread is to show that those verses saying that his death is a sort of Pesach or Yom Kippur sacrifice is purely allegorical. The reason that it meaning those two High Holy days is to show that the sacrifice of the Messiah accomplished eternally what they rituals were set up to do year after year. This is why we read in the book of Ezekiel that those Holy Days will be keep only as a memorial, not to cleans us from sin.
                  > In conclusion, the purpose of this post is the give evidence that the reference to the Messiah being substitute animal sacrifice is purely allegorical. Human sacrifice is forbidden in Torah and the Messiah did manifest as a human. That fact alone excludes him from being an sacrificial offering in the same sense as the animals were. But,
                  the book of Hebrews clearly substitutes Yehoshua (a human) for the sacrificial goat on Yom Kippur which is forbidden in Torah. In additional, even if we ignore that fact, his physical body was not fit to be a proper offering to HaShem because it was bruised.
                  > On the contrary, when viewed spiritually, we see a direct parallel of the life of the Messiah to the animal sacrifices. Due to the length of this post, I will not list the numerous parallels. The point is that the literary style of that time used graphic imagery and symbolism to general the appropriate emotional response in the reader. Those who studied under the Master, and later, Paul and the Apostles, were train in the meaning of these symbolisms. The masses can only interpret them literally because they do not know the symbolic meaning. Therefore, they read the Scriptures as if it is a history book because that is all they know. The massed read everything this way. They have never been
                  trained to understand spiritual symbolism.
                  > The Master explained why he taught this way to his disciples. When he departed, his disciples taught their disciples in the same manner. So, when the New Testament was written, it was written only for the disciples of Yehoshua. Only the disciples can possibly understand the deep, esoteric teachings in the books. So, read exactly what Master Yehoshua says to his disciples.Mat 13:10-18¶ And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
                  > My point is that we may assume that the Scripture says what it says--that meaning--that they are literal and purely historical. But Yehoshua clearly states that the inner teachings are given using symbolic language that can only be understood by those devoted to him. So, I do understand how you can interpret the words in the New Testament as saying that the Messiah will died as a sort of sacrifice. But, the symbolic meaning has far
                  greater implications. At that level, we are actually given the spiritual instructions to achieve the state of sinlessness that is described in I John 3. So, the masses with have to wait for the resurrection of the dead to shed their sinful nature. But, the Master actually laid down teachings for his devotees to achieve this state of perfection in this lifetime before we die.
                  > So keep in mind, my only point of contention is that the statements in the New Testament implying that the execution of Yehoshua is like an animal sacrifice is purely allegorical. This post is just an overview. Since this is an deep issue, it will be impossible to prove what I say conclusively. If you inspect the Scriptures, you will be able to understand the inner meaning at a basic level. However, to understand the exact meaning, it must come from one of the direct apostolic lineage with the only exception being if you get it directly from the Master himself like Paul did.
                  But, just reading the Bible on our own will not work.
                  > From the very beginning, the Master taught his inner circle of disciples differently than the rest of the believers. This applies to this very subject. Therefore, not understanding this matter does not mean that we are not true disciples of the Master, it just means that we have are not privy to the inner teachings yet. So, the focus is now is on Torah observance and cleansing our hearts of self-centered desires. When he have spiritually matures, then we can be trusted with the inner teachings. But, just accepting Yehoshua as Messiah and keeping the religion given to Israel will not suffice to receive the High Wisdom.
                  > One last thing before I close. As I type this, I keep finding more information. So, I will wait to respond further if you have questions. But, one last thing I did want to bring to your attention is Ephesians 5--the whole chapter. Please read the chapter because what I
                  say will not make sense unless you do and I do not want to make this post even longer by pasting it. When you read it, you see that Paul is describing the marriage relationship. But, in verse 32 he says this is allegorical and then applies it to physical marriage. So, his real message is spiritual and has nothing to do with this world. In that particular case, the allegory can be applied to a physical marriage. But there is no way I can reconcile KILLING A MESSIAH with the Torah.
                  > So, in your response, you will have to show me where killing a human as a sacrifice is allowed in the Torah. I am not yet able to do so and that is why I dropped the literally belief of the Messiah being a human sacrifice. In fact, it is that teaching that led me and others to reject the New Testament as a whole. It actually worked out because, for about two years, all I did was focus on Hebrew and the Tanakh which made me a better disciple of Yehoshua. But, when I
                  discovered the allegorical nature of the Bible, then I was able reconcile that teachings. But, I verify ALL THINGS with the Torah. I put the Torah above all writings. If something contradicts Torah, then I reject it or look deeper into the matter. My opinion is based on my zeal to harmonize the New Testament with the Torah. So, please show me in the Torah where killing the Messiah is allowed.
                  > Shalom,
                  > Yehochanan
                  > P.S. I know this post is long. So I will summarize the points of focus for you to respond to. These are the points I made in my LONG post. These are the things that lead me to my opinion.I disagree with the literal interpretation given in the book of Hebrews that the Messiah is a sacrifice because:
                  > 1. Human sacrifice is forbidden in Torah.
                  > 2. Yehoshua's flesh was bruised making him an unfit sacrifice according to Torah law.I believe the following instead:
                  > 1. Yehoshua fit all the Torah requirements
                  of a spiritual sacrifice. For example, his purity corresponded to being without blemish.
                  > 2. The New Testament teaching on the Yehoshua being an altar sacrifice is symbolic and only understood by the inner initiates. The masses of believers are only given the general understanding in parable form.
                  > THE END
                  >
                  > --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, BYT YHWH bytyhwh@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Shalom Yehochanan!
                  > >  
                  > > I fully agree with you that YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Life and Ministry was ALSO part of His Sacrifice for us, just as His Disciples' lives and ministries are.
                  > >  
                  > > But, contrary to what you said, I believe that His Death (that we have to REMEMBER, at His Memorial, at Passover time, taking unleavened bread and wine, as symbols of HIS Body and Blood, as He instructed His Disciples to do, until He will come back) was ALSO part of His
                  Sacrifice for us, just as His Apostles clearly Understood.
                  > >  
                  > > Here below are some of their Inspired Writings about it:
                  > >  
                  > > Yahchanan (John) 1:29 -
                  > >  29 The next day Yahchanan seeth YHWSU (Yahshua) coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of  The Mighty One, Which taketh away the sin of the world.
                  > >  36 And looking upon YHWSU (Yahshua) as He walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of The Mighty One!
                  > >  
                  > > Yahchanan (John) 3:14-21 -
                  > >  14 And as Mosheh lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up:
                  > >  15 That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
                  > >  16 For The Mighty One so loved the world, that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not
                  perish, but have Everlasting Life.
                  > >  17 For The Mighty One sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.
                  > >  18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of The Mighty One.
                  > >  19 And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil.
                  > >  20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the Light, neither cometh to the Light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
                  > >  21 But he that doeth Truth cometh to the Light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in The Mighty One.
                  > >  
                  > > Romans 5:6-11 -
                  > >  6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time MashiYah
                  (MessiYah) died for the ungodly.
                  > >  7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
                  > >  8 But The mighty One commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, MashiYah (MessiYah) died for us.
                  > >  9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
                  > >  10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to The Mighty One by the Death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be Saved by His Life.
                  > >  11 And not only so, but we also joy in The mighty One through our Master YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), by Whom we have now received the atonement.
                  > >   
                  > > Romans 6:1-10 -
                  > >  1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may
                  abound?
                  > >  2 The Mighty One forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
                  > >  3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into YHWSU (Yahshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), were baptized into His Death?
                  > >  4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as MashiYah (MessiYah) was raised up from the dead by the

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                • John V. Cordaro
                  ... The sacrifice was done on earth. The sprinkling of the blood was done in the heavenly tabernacle. ... Heb 9:12-15 is not referencing Ex 24:6-8 to show
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 3, 2008
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                    On Jun 2, 2008, at 11:39 PM, Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael wrote:

                    As we see, the first tabernacle was physical. This is the same tabernacle that Moshe saw in his vision (Exodus 25:9). But the context of Hebrews 9 is that it is talking about a spiritual (non-physical) tabernacle. Physical sacrifices are done in the physical tabernacle. Spiritual sacrifices are done in a spiritual tabernacle. The physical body of Yehoshua is not in the spiritual tabernacle nor was his physical body sacrificed. The whole thing is spiritual. This theme is throughout the New Testament. The Tabernacle in which Yehoshua performed his sacrifice is Spiritual.

                    The sacrifice was done on earth. The sprinkling of the blood was done in the heavenly tabernacle.

                    Exodus 24:6-8 And Moses took half of the blood, and put [it] in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

                    We can see that the Book of Hebrews is a making a direct reference to the Torah to show that the spiritual rite of atonement of believers directly parallels the physical rite originally performed by Moses.

                    Heb 9:12-15 is not referencing Ex 24:6-8 to show anything about the atonement, but to show that shed blood was used to ratify the covenants, old and new.

                    John asked me, Please explain how Isaiah 53:5 can speak of Messiah's wounding, bruising and stripes and yet Isaiah 53:10 says, "thou shall make his soul an offering for sin". It seems to me that YHWH accepted him as an "offering for sin" while in a bruised state.

                    Easy, it says his SOUL/Nefesh was the offering, not the physical body which is the thesis of this article. Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah being a Pesach or Yom Kippur sacrifice. It is only at the spiritual level (nefesh) that Messiah is an offering, not the physical body level.

                    Ge 2:7 And YHWH Elohim formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

                    The body + the breath of life = a living person.

                    Le 5:2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.

                    The soul (a living person) can touch.

                    Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

                    He poured out his life as a human person unto death. His death was purely physical for a spiritual purpose.

                    Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased YHWH to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of YHWH shall prosper in his hand.

                    "His soul" refers to his entire being as a living person. It does not refer to some spiritual part of him that is separate from the physical man.

                    05315 vpn nephesh neh'-fesh

                    from 05314; TWOT - 1395a; n f

                    KJV - soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3, themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, misc 47; 753

                    1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
                       1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
                       1b) living being
                       1c) living being (with life in the blood)
                       1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
                       1e) seat of the appetites
                       1f) seat of emotions and passions
                       1g) activity of mind
                           1g1) dubious
                       1h) activity of the will
                           1h1) dubious
                       1i) activity of the character
                           1i1) dubious


                    In Messiah,
                    John


                    Shalom to All Who Read This,

                    For all who read this post, please read all of the verses and quotes. I apologize for the length of the post. But, this is not an easy subject to explain with a verse or two. I obviously do not have the wisdom to explain the most advanced things in a short parable like the Master. My explanations are based primarily on the written texts and not my own reasoning or interpretations. So, if they are read in detail, you will not understand my thoughts.

                    In addition, all quotes are from the King James Bible for convenience. I personally consider the Hebrew Tanakh and the Aramaic Peshitta as my source texts. I am in no way endorsing this translation nor do I believe the names of the Creator and His son are Lord, God or Jesus. I just pasted the text from the online Bible text. My suggestion is that you read the verses in the version of your choice--preferably the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek texts.

                     

                    Carlo said, There is no whatsoever doubt, and I fully Agree about Spiritual, Symbolic, Allegorical, Typical way of speaking ALSO used in reference to the Sacrifice of YHWSU (Yahshua), as you have well explained. But, as you know very well, ANY Spiritual Pattern has a correspondent physical pattern.

                    This is absolutely correct. However, the point I am making in this thread is that spirit is separate from the corporeal. The spiritual pattern is completely spiritual and the corresponding spiritual pattern is the physical sacrificial rites of Israel--not the execution of physical body of Yehoshua. Also, the physical death/execution of the Messiah did not fulfill the requirements of being a Pesach/Passover or Yom Kippur sacrifice on the physical or spiritual level. We will show in this post that the complete atonement was all performed at the spiritual level. All of the actions were done at the spiritual level. These are the only points I am making in this thread.

                    The physical body of Yehoshua does not even come into the equation. The confusion is over the meaning of apparently corporeal terms like blood, death, body, and the like. So, when we read the verses that say that Yehoshua offered his body as a sacrifice, we interpret each words as being physical. Using physical definitions, we have no choice but to interpret Yehoshua as a physical sacrifice. What I will show in this post is that the physical correspondence is the literal rituals of the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifices while the spiritual correspondence is the very act of Yehoshua instituting the New Covenant in the heavenly/spiritual tabernacle.

                    I will get into the body of this message shortly. But, first, I would like to review the exactly what the new covenant is.

                    Jeremiah 31:31-34Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

                    There are many other verses in the Tanakh that say the same thing--mostly in the books of Isaiah and Ezekiel. As we see, the real new covenant is instituted when Israel--and Gentiles who are yoked to the Covenant--have their minds purified and perfected, the Torah is put in their hearts, and their sins are forgiven.

                    We also read about this perfect state in the New Testament--particularly I John 3. I request that all who read this post review that short chapter. In that chapter, we read that true disciples of Yehoshua will attained a state of sinlessness and be given the title,Sons of God. We are taught in the Book of John by the Messiah that we will attained perfection (John 17:23). And when we check the Aramaic and Greek, they both says perfection/completion. At this point, we will truly be brethren with the Messiah (Hebrews 2:11).

                    It is taught in the churches that we cannot attain this state of perfection until the resurrection of the dead. However, Yehoshua taught that we can attain this state in this lifetime. This is the whole subject of I John 3. This is what is described in the Book of Hebrews (mainly) and throughout the New Testament as a whole. So, we learn that the sacrificial system is in reality as physical representation of the spiritual actions that occur when one is passed from death to life (John 5:24).

                    Keep in mind, I said that the New Testament teaches that ministry of Yehoshua is what saved and atone, not his death on the cross. The Master himself said that he who hears (obeys) his word and believe in him has eternal life. It is not his death that atones but his teachings and ministry.

                    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

                    I checked the whole Tanakh and New Testament. There is not one verse that says that actual execution of the execution of physical body of the Son did anything. All that did is make Yehoshua the lord of the living and the death. The issue is never about atonement. Paul says this in the following verse.

                    Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might beLord both of the dead and living.

                    Now, I will show that allegorical statements in the Pauline writing and the Book of Hebrews merely details the realization of the new covenant (that being the transformation of the believers). We will see that the physical body of Yehoshua was not the sacrifice and has nothing to do with the animal sacrificial system at all. In order to show that, all we need to do is look throughout the New Testament to get the correct definitions of the words. Then we can correctly understand the statements. I will focus on chapters 8 and 9 of the Book of Hebrews with references to the words of Paul.

                    The context of chapters 8 and 9 in the book of Hebrews is the Yom Kippur offering. Some of the requirements performing the Yom Kippur sacrifice are:

                    1. A Temple/Tabernacle (with vessels and compartments such as the Holy of Holies)

                    2. A High Priest

                    3. Two goats/lambs (Yehoshua is the sacrificial lamb and the Satan is the Azazel that is sent away).

                    Keep in mind, the New Testament teaches that Yehoshua fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice once and for all. As I noted before, he did not fulfill this with his physical body because there was no physical tabernacle or temple. We cannot flip back and forth from physical to spiritual. Either the whole thing was physical or the whole thing was spiritual. This is what Paul taught.

                    1Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

                    We humans want to make everything physical. We demand a physical God so we choose Jesus. Similarly, we want a make the spiritual sacrifice of Yehoshua a physical event which it is not. As unbelievable at it may seem, the whole sacrifice for our sins was performed in the spiritual realm and has nothing to do with the physical. I will show examples of this in the scriptures later on in the post.

                    We will see in the Book of Hebrews that it contrasts the physical and the spiritual aspect of Yom Kippur. The physical rites were done by regular humans and physical animals were killed in a physical tabernacle while Yehoshua did the spiritual rites with a spiritual temple, a spiritual sacrifice and the like. The Book of Hebrew goes to great detail to show that the sacrifice is physical in complete contrast to the physical sacrifice of ancient Israel.

                    So, we will now show that New Testament teaches that everything concerning the Yom Kippur observance and the Tabernacle/Temple is merely a physical representation of the spiritual reality. This everything include the High Priest, the blood, death, sacrifice, vessels and the like are all spiritual. With this knowledge, we can read scriptures detailing the death of Yehoshua in the proper context--the spiritual context.

                     

                    The Tabernacle (Spiritual or Physical)

                     

                    Hebrews 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle,not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

                    As we see, the first tabernacle was physical. This is the same tabernacle that Moshe saw in his vision (Exodus 25:9). But the context of Hebrews 9 is that it is talking about a spiritual (non-physical) tabernacle. Physical sacrifices are done in the physical tabernacle. Spiritual sacrifices are done in a spiritual tabernacle. The physical body of Yehoshua is not in the spiritual tabernacle nor was his physical body sacrificed. The whole thing is spiritual. This theme is throughout the New Testament. The Tabernacle in which Yehoshua performed his sacrifice is Spiritual.

                    Hebrews 9:23-24 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves withbetter sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

                    And no, a human sacrifice is not better than an animal sacrifice--not even the body of the Messiah.<

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                  • John V. Cordaro
                    I agree with your assessment Carlo. Col 1:21-22: And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 3, 2008
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                      I agree with your assessment Carlo.

                      Col 1:21-22:  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
                      In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

                      In Messiah,
                      John


                      On Jun 3, 2008, at 1:49 AM, BYT YHWH wrote:


                      Shalom Yehochanan!

                       

                      Thank you very much again for your message, and your time spent in studying this Important Issue.

                       

                      Without going into Scriptural details, that, YHWH (Yahweh) Willing, I reserve to do later, because it would take a longer Scriptural Study, now I would like to kindly tell you that seems that you are doing the same mistake, on the "Spiritual" side, that you said Christians do on the "physical" side of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice.

                       

                      It seems that you are "Spiritualizing" EVERY aspect of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice, as if He did NOT have to live a physical life as a human being, as if He did NOT have to overcome His human flesh, as if He did NOT have to suffer and die physically.

                       

                      Let me ask you how would you "Spiritualize" YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Command, at the Passover time, for the Memorial of His Death?

                       

                      Would the unleavened bread, that He told His Disciples to eat, symbolize His "Spiritual" body, and NOT His physical body, that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed?

                       

                      Would the wine, that He told His Disciples to drink, symbolize His "Spiritual" blood, and NOT His physical blood, the Blood of The New Covenant shed for many?

                       

                      How could ALL that be ONLY Spiritual, and ALL the physical aspects denied?

                       

                      What I see written in The Scrittures are BOTH Spiritual and physical aspects of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice. And I believe that NEITHER of them have to be denied.

                       

                      May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!

                       

                      True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),

                       

                      Carlo Tognoni

                       

                      BYT YHWH

                      The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua

                      www.byt-yhwh.org

                       

                      =====================================================================

                       
                       
                       
                         


                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael <yehochanan@yahoo.com>
                      To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 10:39:44 PM
                      Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?


                      Shalom to All Who Read This,

                      For all who read this post, please read all of the verses and quotes. I apologize for the length of the post. But, this is not an easy subject to explain with a verse or two. I obviously do not have the wisdom to explain the most advanced things in a short parable like the Master. My explanations are based primarily on the written texts and not my own reasoning or interpretations. So, if they are read in detail, you will not understand my thoughts.

                      In addition, all quotes are from the King James Bible for convenience. I personally consider the Hebrew Tanakh and the Aramaic Peshitta as my source texts. I am in no way endorsing this translation nor do I believe the names of the Creator and His son are Lord, God or Jesus. I just pasted the text from the online Bible text. My suggestion is that you read the verses in the version of your choice--preferably the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek texts.

                       

                      Carlo said, There is no whatsoever doubt, and I fully Agree about Spiritual, Symbolic, Allegorical, Typical way of speaking ALSO used in reference to the Sacrifice of YHWSU (Yahshua), as you have well explained. But, as you know very well, ANY Spiritual Pattern has a correspondent physical pattern.

                      This is absolutely correct. However, the point I am making in this thread is that spirit is separate from the corporeal. The spiritual pattern is completely spiritual and the corresponding spiritual pattern is the physical sacrificial rites of Israel--not the execution of physical body of Yehoshua. Also, the physical death/execution of the Messiah did not fulfill the requirements of being a Pesach/Passover or Yom Kippur sacrifice on the physical or spiritual level. We will show in this post that the complete atonement was all performed at the spiritual level. All of the actions were done at the spiritual level. These are the only points I am making in this thread.

                      The physical body of Yehoshua does not even come into the equation. The confusion is over the meaning of apparently corporeal terms like blood, death, body, and the like. So, when we read the verses that say that Yehoshua offered his body as a sacrifice, we interpret each words as being physical. Using physical definitions, we have no choice but to interpret Yehoshua as a physical sacrifice. What I will show in this post is that the physical correspondence is the literal rituals of the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifices while the spiritual correspondence is the very act of Yehoshua instituting the New Covenant in the heavenly/spiritual tabernacle.

                      I will get into the body of this message shortly. But, first, I would like to review the exactly what the new covenant is.

                      Jeremiah 31:31-34Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

                      There are many other verses in the Tanakh that say the same thing--mostly in the books of Isaiah and Ezekiel. As we see, the real new covenant is instituted when Israel--and Gentiles who are yoked to the Covenant--have their minds purified and perfected, the Torah is put in their hearts, and their sins are forgiven.

                      We also read about this perfect state in the New Testament--particul arly I John 3. I request that all who read this post review that short chapter. In that chapter, we read that true disciples of Yehoshua will attained a state of sinlessness and be given the title,Sons of God. We are taught in the Book of John by the Messiah that we will attained perfection (John 17:23). And when we check the Aramaic and Greek, they both says perfection/completi on. At this point, we will truly be brethren with the Messiah (Hebrews 2:11).

                      It is taught in the churches that we cannot attain this state of perfection until the resurrection of the dead. However, Yehoshua taught that we can attain this state in this lifetime. This is the whole subject of I John 3. This is what is described in the Book of Hebrews (mainly) and throughout the New Testament as a whole. So, we learn that the sacrificial system is in reality as physical representation of the spiritual actions that occur when one is passed from death to life (John 5:24).

                      Keep in mind, I said that the New Testament teaches that ministry of Yehoshua is what saved and atone, not his death on the cross. The Master himself said that he who hears (obeys) his word and believe in him has eternal life. It is not his death that atones but his teachings and ministry.

                      John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

                      I checked the whole Tanakh and New Testament.. There is not one verse that says that actual execution of the execution of physical body of the Son did anything. All that did is make Yehoshua the lord of the living and the death. The issue is never about atonement.. Paul says this in the following verse.

                      Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might beLord both of the dead and living.

                      Now, I will show that allegorical statements in the Pauline writing and the Book of Hebrews merely details the realization of the new covenant (that being the transformation of the believers). We will see that the physical body of Yehoshua was not the sacrifice and has nothing to do with the animal sacrificial system at all. In order to show that, all we need to do is look throughout the New Testament to get the correct definitions of the words. Then we can correctly understand the statements. I will focus on chapters 8 and 9 of the Book of Hebrews with references to the words of Paul.

                      The context of chapters 8 and 9 in the book of Hebrews is the Yom Kippur offering. Some of the requirements performing the Yom Kippur sacrifice are:

                      1. A Temple/Tabernacle (with vessels and compartments such as the Holy of Holies)

                      2. A High Priest

                      3. Two goats/lambs (Yehoshua is the sacrificial lamb and the Satan is the Azazel that is sent away).

                      Keep in mind, the New Testament teaches that Yehoshua fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice once and for all. As I noted before, he did not fulfill this with his physical body because there was no physical tabernacle or temple. We cannot flip back and forth from physical to spiritual. Either the whole thing was physical or the whole thing was spiritual. This is what Paul taught.

                      1Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

                      We humans want to make everything physical. We demand a physical God so we choose Jesus. Similarly, we want a make the spiritual sacrifice of Yehoshua a physical event which it is not. As unbelievable at it may seem, the whole sacrifice for our sins was performed in the spiritual realm and has nothing to do with the physical. I will show examples of this in the scriptures later on in the post.

                      We will see in the Book of Hebrews that it contrasts the physical and the spiritual aspect of Yom Kippur. The physical rites were done by regular humans and physical animals were killed in a physical tabernacle while Yehoshua did the spiritual rites with a spiritual temple, a spiritual sacrifice and the like. The Book of Hebrew goes to great detail to show that the sacrifice is physical in complete contrast to the physical sacrifice of ancient Israel.

                      So, we will now show that New Testament teaches that everything concerning the Yom Kippur observance and the Tabernacle/Temple is merely a physical representation of the spiritual reality.. This everything include the High Priest, the blood, death, sacrifice, vessels and the like are all spiritual. With this knowledge, we can read scriptures detailing the death of Yehoshua in the proper context--the spiritual context.

                       

                      The Tabernacle (Spiritual or Physical)

                       

                      Hebrews 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle,not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

                      As we see, the first tabernacle was physical. This is the same tabernacle that Moshe saw in his vision (Exodus 25:9). But the context of Hebrews 9 is that it is talking about a spiritual (non-physical) tabernacle. Physical sacrifices are done in the physical tabernacle. Spiritual sacrifices are done in a spiritual tabernacle. The physical body of Yehoshua is not in the spiritual tabernacle nor was his physical body sacrificed. The whole thing is spiritual. This theme is throughout the New Testament. The Tabernacle in which Yehoshua performed his sacrifice is Spiritual.

                      Hebrews 9:23-24 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves withbetter sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

                      And no, a human sacrifice is not better than an animal sacrifice--not even the body of the Messiah.

                    • BYT YHWH
                      Shalom John! I am Very Glad that we Agree also on this Important Issue! May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 3, 2008
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                        Shalom John!

                         

                        I am Very Glad that we Agree also on this Important Issue!

                         

                        May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!

                         

                        True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),

                         

                        Carlo Tognoni

                         

                        BYT YHWH

                        The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua

                        www.byt-yhwh..org

                         

                        =====================================================================

                         

                         



                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: John V. Cordaro <jvcordaro@...>
                        To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 7:21:38 PM
                        Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?

                        I agree with your assessment Carlo.


                        Col 1:21-22:  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
                        In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

                        In Messiah,
                        John


                        On Jun 3, 2008, at 1:49 AM, BYT YHWH wrote:


                        Shalom Yehochanan!

                         

                        Thank you very much again for your message, and your time spent in studying this Important Issue.

                         

                        Without going into Scriptural details, that, YHWH (Yahweh) Willing, I reserve to do later, because it would take a longer Scriptural Study, now I would like to kindly tell you that seems that you are doing the same mistake, on the "Spiritual" side, that you said Christians do on the "physical" side of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice.

                         

                        It seems that you are "Spiritualizing"  EVERY aspect of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice, as if He did NOT have to live a physical life as a human being, as if He did NOT have to overcome His human flesh, as if He did NOT have to suffer and die physically.

                         

                        Let me ask you how would you "Spiritualize" YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Command, at the Passover time, for the Memorial of His Death?

                         

                        Would the unleavened bread, that He told His Disciples to eat, symbolize His "Spiritual" body, and NOT His physical body, that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed?

                         

                        Would the wine, that He told His Disciples to drink, symbolize His "Spiritual" blood, and NOT His physical blood, the Blood of The New Covenant shed for many?

                         

                        How could ALL that be ONLY Spiritual, and ALL the physical aspects denied?

                         

                        What I see written in The Scrittures are BOTH Spiritual and physical aspects of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice. And I believe that NEITHER of them have to be denied.

                         

                        May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!

                         

                        True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),

                         

                        Carlo Tognoni

                         

                        BYT YHWH

                        The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua

                        www.byt-yhwh.org

                         

                        =====================================================================

                         
                         
                         
                           


                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael <yehochanan@yahoo.com>
                        To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 10:39:44 PM
                        Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?


                        Shalom to All Who Read This,

                        For all who read this post, please read all of the verses and quotes. I apologize for the length of the post. But, this is not an easy subject to explain with a verse or two. I obviously do not have the wisdom to explain the most advanced things in a short parable like the Master. My explanations are based primarily on the written texts and not my own reasoning or interpretations. So, if they are read in detail, you will not understand my thoughts.

                        In addition, all quotes are from the King James Bible for convenience. I personally consider the Hebrew Tanakh and the Aramaic Peshitta as my source texts. I am in no way endorsing this translation nor do I believe the names of the Creator and His son are Lord, God or Jesus. I just pasted the text from the online Bible text.. My suggestion is that you read the verses in the version of your choice--preferably the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek texts.

                         

                        Carlo said, There is no whatsoever doubt, and I fully Agree about Spiritual, Symbolic, Allegorical, Typical way of speaking ALSO used in reference to the Sacrifice of YHWSU (Yahshua), as you have well explained. But, as you know very well, ANY Spiritual Pattern has a correspondent physical pattern.

                        This is absolutely correct. However, the point I am making in this thread is that spirit is separate from the corporeal. The spiritual pattern is completely spiritual and the corresponding spiritual pattern is the physical sacrificial rites of Israel--not the execution of physical body of Yehoshua. Also, the physical death/execution of the Messiah did not fulfill the requirements of being a Pesach/Passover or Yom Kippur sacrifice on the physical or spiritual level. We will show in this post that the complete atonement was all performed at the spiritual level. All of the actions were done at the spiritual level. These are the only points I am making in this thread.

                        The physical body of Yehoshua does not even come into the equation. The confusion is over the meaning of apparently corporeal terms like blood, death, body, and the like. So, when we read the verses that say that Yehoshua offered his body as a sacrifice, we interpret each words as being physical. Using physical definitions, we have no choice but to interpret Yehoshua as a physical sacrifice. What I will show in this post is that the physical correspondence is the literal rituals of the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifices while the spiritual correspondence is the very act of Yehoshua instituting the New Covenant in the heavenly/spiritual tabernacle.

                        I will get into the body of this message shortly. But, first, I would like to review the exactly what the new covenant is.

                        Jeremiah 31:31-34Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

                        There are many other verses in the Tanakh that say the same thing--mostly in the books of Isaiah and Ezekiel. As we see, the real new covenant is instituted when Israel--and Gentiles who are yoked to the Covenant--have their minds purified and perfected, the Torah is put in their hearts, and their sins are forgiven.

                        We also read about this perfect state in the New Testament--particul arly I John 3. I request that all who read this post review that short chapter. In that chapter, we read that true disciples of Yehoshua will attained a state of sinlessness and be given the title,Sons of God. We are taught in the Book of John by the Messiah that we will attained perfection (John 17:23). And when we check the Aramaic and Greek, they both says perfection/completi on. At this point, we will truly be brethren with the Messiah (Hebrews 2:11).

                        It is taught in the churches that we cannot attain this state of perfection until the resurrection of the dead. However, Yehoshua taught that we can attain this state in this lifetime. This is the whole subject of I John 3. This is what is described in the Book of Hebrews (mainly) and throughout the New Testament as a whole. So, we learn that the sacrificial system is in reality as physical representation of the spiritual actions that occur when one is passed from death to life (John 5:24).

                        Keep in mind, I said that the New Testament teaches that ministry of Yehoshua is what saved and atone, not his death on the cross. The Master himself said that he who hears (obeys) his word and believe in him has eternal life. It is not his death that atones but his teachings and ministry.

                        John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

                        I checked the whole Tanakh and New Testament.. There is not one verse that says that actual execution of the execution of physical body of the Son did anything. All that did is make Yehoshua the lord of the living and the death. The issue is never about atonement.. Paul says this in the following verse.

                        Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might beLord both of the dead and living.

                        Now, I will show that allegorical statements in the Pauline writing and the Book of Hebrews merely details the realization of the new covenant (that being the transformation of the believers). We will see that the physical body of Yehoshua was not the sacrifice and has nothing to do with the animal sacrificial system at all. In order to show that, all we need to do is look throughout the New Testament to get the correct definitions of the words. Then we can correctly understand the statements. I will focus on chapters 8 and 9 of the Book of Hebrews with references to the words of Paul.

                        The context of chapters 8 and 9 in the book of Hebrews is the Yom Kippur offering. Some of the requirements performing the Yom Kippur sacrifice are:

                        1. A Temple/Tabernacle (with vessels and compartments such as the Holy of Holies)

                        2. A High Priest

                        3. Two goats/lambs (Yehoshua is the sacrificial lamb and the Satan is the Azazel that is sent away).

                        Keep in mind, the New Testament teaches that Yehoshua fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice once and for all. As I noted before, he did not fulfill this with his physical body because there was no physical tabernacle or temple. We cannot flip back and forth from physical to spiritual. Either the whole thing was physical or the whole thing was spiritual. This is what Paul taught.

                        1Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

                        We humans want to make everything physical. We demand a physical God so we choose Jesus. Similarly, we want a make the spiritual sacrifice of Yehoshua a physical event which it is not. As unbelievable at it may seem, the whole sacrifice for our sins was performed in the spiritual realm and has nothing to do with the physical. I will show examples of this in the scriptures later on in the post.

                        We will see in the Book of Hebrews that it contrasts the physical and the spiritual aspect of Yom Kippur. The physical rites were done by regular humans and physical animals were killed in a physical tabernacle while Yehoshua did the spiritual rites with a spiritual temple, a spiritual sacrifice and the like. The Book of Hebrew goes to great detail to show that the sacrifice is physical in complete contrast to the physical sacrifice of ancient Israel.

                        So, we will now show that New Testament teaches that everything concerning the Yom Kippur observance and the Tabernacle/Temple is merely a physical representation of the spiritual reality.. This everything include the High Priest, the blood, death, sacrifice, vessels and the like are all spiritual. With this knowledge, we can read scriptures detailing the death of Yehoshua in the proper context--the spiritual context.

                         

                        The Tabernacle (Spiritual or Physical)

                         

                        Hebrews 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle,not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

                        As we see, the first tabernacle was physical. This is the same tabernacle that Moshe saw in his vision (Exodus 25:9).. But the context of Hebrews 9 is that it is talking about a spiritual (non-physical) tabernacle. Physical sacrifices are done in the physical tabernacle. Spiritual sacrifices are done in a spiritual tabernacle. The physical body of Yehoshua is not in the spiritual tabernacle nor was his physical body sacrificed. The whole thing is spiritual. This theme is throughout the New Testament. The Tabernacle in which Yehoshua performed his sacrifice is Spiritual.

                        Hebrews 9:23-24 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves withbetter sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

                        And no, a human sacrifice is not better than an animal sacrifice--not even the body of the Messiah.

                         

                        THE BLOOD (Spiritual or Physical)


                        One verse that leads Christians to believe that the blood that made atonement for us was physical is the following.

                        Hebrews 9:12-15 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own bloodhe entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, andsprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

                        First notice that it says that he was offered without spot. The book is lying if is saying that his physical body was without spot. But, it is not talking about his physical body at all. It is his spiritual body that is the subject of this book. To imply this is speaking of the physical takes it out of context. Later, we will see that all the other words like blood and death are also spiritual.

                        This section of the Book of Hebrew that I just posted above is talking about how Yehoshua institutes the TRUE NEW COVENANT. This must be done in the same pattern of the Torah with the different being that this is all on the spiritual level.

                        Let us look in the Torah and see what happens with the blood. We will see that if Yehoshua performed the spiritual sacrifice of Yom Kippur once and for all, he must sprinkle the blood on the vessels and the people if the whole sacrifice is in accordance with the Law.

                        Exodus 24:6-8 And Moses took half of the blood, and put [it] in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

                        We can see that the Book of Hebrews is a making a direct reference to the Torah to show that the spiritual rite of atonement of believers directly parallels the physical rite originally performed by Moses.

                        The Torah is definitely talking about physical blood. But, is the Book of Hebrews talking about his physical blood? According to popular belief, the Book of Hebrews is also talking about physical blood. They believe the blood of the Old Covenant is animal blood and the blood of the New Testament is Yehoshua's physical blood. But both are physical. The New Testament cannot possibly be talking about physical blood because it is not talking about his physical body.

                        In addition, for in order for us to a part of the new covenant, we must be sprinkled with this blood. Yet, the New Testament does say wh

                        (Message over 64 KB, truncated)

                      • Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael
                        Shalom Bro. Carlo, In this post, I will respond to all of your concerns pertaining to the spiritual aspect of the sacrifice of Yehoshua HaMashiach. Keep in
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 4, 2008
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                          Shalom Bro. Carlo,

                          In this post, I will respond to all of your concerns pertaining to the spiritual aspect of the sacrifice of Yehoshua HaMashiach. Keep in mind that my only point is that the physical body of Yehoshua is not sacrificial lamb of Yom Kippur. I believe it is his spiritual body. I will show later in the post that the physical body is the scapegoat/Azazel while the spiritual body is the sacrificial lamb and the actual sacrifice.

                          You said, It seems that you are "Spiritualizing" EVERY aspect of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice, as if He did NOT have to live a physical life as a human being, as if He did NOT have to overcome His human flesh, as if He did NOT have to suffer and die physically.

                          I made it clear that the ONLY ASPECT that I am correcting is the implication that his physical death is the spiritual sacrifice of the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrificial lamb. I did not spiritualize anything. The Book of Hebrews states that the context of this sacrifice is in Heaven in the Spiritual tabernacle. This makes the context spiritual.

                          I showed that the terms in the narrative that corresponds Yehoshua as the Pesach/Passover Lamb and the Yom Kipper sacrificial lamb never reference the historical events of his execution at Calvary. I showed that the words used in the narrative have both physical and spiritual definitions. The context in the book of Hebrews tells us explicitly that everything took place in the spiritual sanctuary--not the planet Earth. Then I showed that New Testament itself spiritualizes all of the objects, actions, and events surrounding the physical sacrificial ritual such as spiritual blood, death, tabernacle, and the like.

                          Therefore, to proved that execution of Yehoshua at Calvary was physical, you would gave to go line for line in the Torah and show how each even perfectly fulfills the Torah requirements. Quoting a verse or two will not do it. It must line up verbatim with Torah. Otherwise, all you are doing is proving that the New Testament contradicts the Torah.

                          And I as showed you, it is impossible to show that Yehoshua fulfilled the Torah requirements because the physical body of Yehoshua failed the test of being a without spot or blemish. To fulfill the Torah, one must meet ALL of the requirements--not just some of them. I proved that he fulfilled them all spiritually. If you can, please show in the Torah that he fulfilled EACH requirement of a Yom Kippur sacrificial lamb physically. I have already done so at the spiritual level using the definitions is got directly from the New Testament.

                          I certainly believe and proved that he had to suffer physically. However, the scriptures say that the reason was not as a sacrifice. He died, suffered and died a physical death and resurrected to be lord of the living and the dead.

                          Romans 14:9 For to this end (purpose) Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

                          The Messiah was had to died suffer and died physically and then resurrect in order to enter to spiritual tabernacle to perform the Eternal Sacrifice. So, the reason he said that Peter could not follow is because flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. So, the issue is not there is performed the Eternal Sacrifice or not. My point is that it did not occur at Calvary. It occurred in the Heavenly Tabernacle just as the Book of Hebrews says it did. This is why he told Peter that he could not go where he was about to go.

                          John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

                          You said, Let me ask you how would you "Spiritualize" YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Command, at the Passover time, for the Memorial of His Death?

                          Would the unleavened bread, that He told His Disciples to eat, symbolize

                          His "Spiritual" body, and NOT His physical body, that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed?

                          This is correct. It is an abomination to eat physical human flesh. You know that it says this in the Torah. So YOU KNOW that he was not talking about eating his physical flesh or body. I do not know why you asked me that. I will show that the body that we wanted his followers to focus on was not his physical body. The body that is the focus is the spiritual body which is HIS WORD.

                          Let us take another look at this verse that you are referring to.

                          Mat 26:26-29And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

                          Yehoshua stated that THE BREAD is his body. He had already taught them that that he is the Bread of God (John 6:33) and the Bread of Life (John 6:35). He taught that this he who eat he that comes to him shall never hunger and he that believeth on him shall never thirst (John 6:35). Let look at the whole verse to get the symbolism.

                          John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

                          His word is the bread!

                          He is the Word and he is the Bread and he is the Life and he is the Light. All of these terms are and more are synonymous in the New Testament. It is HIS WORD that gives eternal life. This is what we just read in the previous verse. He never said that his physical body gave eternal life. The bread he is talking about is the spiritual bread, the Word of YHWH. He is not talking about his physical body which is made of earth and is not from Heaven. It is his spiritual body (self) that came from Heaven and YHWH. This is the body he is talking about.

                          For emphasis, this is another verse that show the difference between his physical body (bread) and spiritual body (spiritual bread/the Word of YHWH).

                          John 6:50-51 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

                           

                          We know that the bread he spoke of was his body. We also know that he has a spiritual body. So, the question is this. What body came down from heaven? His physical body or his spiritual body?

                          What bread will give eternal life? Will eating his physical flesh give eternal life or will obey his word and believing in the Father give eternal life. If you check the scriptures, the way to eternal life is obeying the word of Messiah and having complete devotion to YHWH. When we search the scriptures--Tanakh and New Testament--we see that salvation and eternal life is ALWAYS associated with obedience to YHWH and his Torah.

                          John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth (obeys) my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

                          Mat 19:16-17And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

                          This is the hint at symbolic meaning of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. It has nothing to do with a physical ritual or symbolizing the eating of his physical flesh. This means we have his the Torah (Word, Bread, Flesh) in our hearts/minds and we live according to the Word of the Father by means of His Son.

                          The next verse is the biggest proof that he is differentiating between physical bread and spiritual bread.

                          John 6:55-58 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

                          In Hebraic thought, bread symbolized wisdom. There are two types of bread. Bread from heaven and bread from earth. Yehoshua is speaking of the bread from heaven--spiritual bread--not the bread that we can touch.

                          You asked, Would the wine, that He told His Disciples to drink, symbolize His "Spiritual" blood, and NOT His physical blood, the Blood of The New Covenant shed for many?

                          Yes. The same thing can be shown with the drink. This next verse will give the context of both the bread and the drink. This next verse will show that both the bread and the drink he was talking about was spiritual.

                          Matthew 26:27-29 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

                          We know that the bread and drink he is talking about is spiritual because he told his disciples that they will drink it with him in His Father's kingdom. The Father's kingdom is not physical. It is spiritual bread and spiritual drink that is in the kingdom of heaven, not physical bread and drink.

                          Now, it this is not proven to you yet. I will not directly show that the New Testament spiritualizes everything including bread and drink. It is this spiritual bread and drink that Yehoshua is talking about. So, it is not me who spiritualizes everything the New Testament does this. Without further day, read this verse.

                          1Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

                          Again, his physical body is not from heaven. Only his spiritual body is. His physical body is clearly said the be earthly from the physical seed of David.

                          Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

                          The bread/body that Yehoshua is talking is about is from heaven. Two different bodies. So, to answer you question--NO--Yehoshua is not talking about the body that was that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed. That was his physical body which is from physical matter, not from heaven. His spiritual body is directly from YHWH as you proved in detail when you showed that Yehoshua did not pre-exist.

                          My last email was too long to show the EVERY DETAIL of the sacrificial system is spiritualized in the New Testament. So, often time, when we see a word that we think I physical, the New Testament gives the REAL meaning which is spiritual. So, again, Yehoshua is talking about the spiritual bread and drink, not physical.

                          You asked, How could ALL that be ONLY Spiritual, and ALL the physical aspects denied?

                          I do not deny any physical aspects. He had to teach physically. He had to demonstrate physically complete obedience, love and devotion to YHWH in the flesh as an perfect example for us. Let us look at a good verse that will clarify this more.

                          Hebrews 5:6-9 As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

                          We just read above that we only attained eternal life by obeying (hearing) his word and believing in the Father. So, by him suffering physically, this gives his followers the faith that we can obey to the point of death as well. Complete obedience and faith in YHWH is required for His Grace and Salvation. And the Scriptures tell us that he will not make us endure more than we can bear. This is why is says the following.

                          1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

                          So, I look to the Scriptures to tell me the reason for his physical suffering and death. It literally tells us. There is no need to interpret. He suffered to give us an example the perfect obedience. And he died so that he could be lord over the living and the dead. Again, nowhere does it say his physical death at Calvary fulfilled Pesach or Yom Kippur. This what done in the spiritual tabernacles which I showed in the two previous posts.

                          Lastly, you said, What I see written in The Scriptures are BOTH Spiritual and physical aspects of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice. And I believe that NEITHER of them have to be denied.

                          Neither do I. However, as I said many times, there is not one place in the Bible that says that his execution at Calvary fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur offering. This was done in the spiritual temple.

                          You are incorrect to say that the physical abuses, humiliation and torment he suffered are called sacrifices in the Bible. It does not say this even once in the Tanakh or New Testament. I literally read every verse in the Tanakh and New Testament detailing the suffering of the Messiah. No once are his sufferings called a sacrifice, atonement or propitiation. Since you called them sacrifices, you naturally assume that I disregard the important of the Messiah suffering and dying physically. I do not. Rather, the Scriptures says the ONLY SACRIFICE was his soul (spiritual body), not his physical body (Isaiah 53:10).

                          The Bible DOES tell us the reason for his suffering and death. I already documented in this and a previous post, the reason for his death (which was not atonement). Apostle Peter tells us the reason that he suffered.

                          1Peter 2:21-25 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

                          NOW, I WILL EXPLAIN THE REAL MEANING OF THE PHYSICAL SUFFERING OF YEHOSHUA!!

                          It is unfortunate because with this explanation, I do not even need the words that I said above. Since I spent two hours typing so, I will leave them there for you to read. But, this explanation with explained the meaning of the spiritual sacrifice of Yehoshua and the reason for his physical suffering. I actually should make this post next part of the post a separate post. But, if you are like me, you will read the first one and respond to it when I think that the remained of the post will answer all questions you have. So, consider this post a rough draft of a article I will write in the future on this subject.

                          Recall, I said that the physical body of Yehoshua was never called a sacrifice. Rather, it was his spiritual body. I also said that Yehoshua fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice at the spiritual level and not the physical. In truth, the true sacrifice that made atonement for our sins was his spiritual body. However, his physical body was the scapegoat/Azazel that bared our sins. BOTH GOATS made atonement. The physical body is not a Sacrifice even though it also was required for atonement. We will learn that this in true in the Torah.

                          Keep in mind…the New Testament says that the Messiah died for our sins, was buried, and resurrected according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Therefore, to understand this properly, we must go to the only Scriptures that Paul could have been talking about at that time--the Tanakh. Also remember we are talking about Yehoshua fulfilling the Yom Kippur sacrifice. We know that the purpose of the Yom Kippur rituals was to make atonement for all Israel (every year). Yehoshua accomplished this once and for all. So, all we need to do is go to Leviticus 16, read the whole chapter, and then look in the New Testament to see where everything matches up. Due to the length, I request you open you Bible up to Leviticus 16 since it would be too long to cut and paste to this post. Then I can just refer individual verses.

                          The reason we interpret the physical suffering and death of Yehoshua with the Yom Kippur sacrifice because we assume that it is the sacrificial lamb that bears our sins. This is incorrect. Before I continue on, let us look to the verse that is the source of the confusion.

                          1Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

                          This is a direct reference to Isaiah 53 which says the same thing about the Messiah--that being--his physical flesh bared our sins. And we know that we are talking about the physical flesh because the spiritual body did not hang on the tree/cross/stake. We will now inspect Leviticus 16 and see that it is not the sacrificial lamb that bares the sin, it is the scapegoat/azazel (which is not called a sacrifice) that bears the sin.

                          First of all, to fulfill the Yom Kippur sacrifice, we need TWO GOATS, not one. One goat is the sacrifice for sin, the other is not a sacrifice.

                          Lev 16:7-10 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat (Azazel). And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him [for] a sin offering. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

                          I have gone into great detail to show that the spiritual body of Yehoshua was the sacrifice. But what of the Azazel/scapegoat? It is the scapegoat (physical body) that bears and carries away our sins, not the sacrificial lamb (spiritual body).

                          Lev 16:20-22And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat (scapegoat/Azazel): And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

                          We see there that it is the scapegoat that bears the iniquity, not the sacrificial lamb. We know that Yehoshua is the sacrificial lamb and we know that he is bore our sins. But, it is Yehoshua as the scapegoat that bore out sins, not as the sacrificial lamb. Also note that the scapegoat never enters the Tabernacle. This supports what I said that the spiritual body (sacrificial lamb) entered the (spiritual) tabernacle and was sacrifices while the physical body (scapegoat) did not. The physical body was considered accurse (for us), placed in a tomb and resurrected. The spiritual body is what entered the Heavenly Temple.

                          Now, read Galatians 3:13.

                          Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

                          Again, notice that it mentions him being on a tree (like in the Peter reference above) to make sure we do not confuse the physical body with the spiritual. It is the scapegoat (physical body) that was made a curse for us, not his spiritual body (the sacrificial lamb) which is holy.

                          I believe I have made my point so far, but I have one more thing to add. Recall, I said everything involving the Yom Kippur service is in the New Testament. Well, what does it means that the scapegoat (physical body of Yehoshua) was sent into a land not inhabited in the wilderness?

                          Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

                          This is explained in the Book of Acts. This is the physical death that Yehoshua experienced. Yes, as I said, I do not exclude the importance of the physical aspect of the sacrifice. It is also crucial.

                          Acts 2:24-32 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

                          This is speaking of the period of time that Yehoshua spent in a state of separation from holiness. However, this is what he cried out to the Father to deliver him from. It is funny how people think that when he asked the cup to be removed from him because he was afraid of death. The truth is that he did not ever want to be in a state of uncleanness and impurity. However, the Father raised him up to take his rightful place as King of Israel. Hence he is truly the physical king of Israel and at the same time, the High Priest in the spiritual temple.

                          But we also must remember that the scapegoat must be alive. I believe that his physical body remained alive in order to fulfill Torah. This is why it says that even though his body was in the grave, it did not see corruption. In the case of Yehoshua, it says (in the Aramaic) that he surrendered his spirit (John 19:30). In the Greek texts (and I checked several different ones), it says he gave his spirit into the hands of another. And when we read of instances of persons dying in the Hebrew Tanakh, it always used the word muth--and he died. The things happens in the New Testament. Yet, in this case, you do not see the word he died. His death was spiritual because he was in a state of separation from holiness. And to prove that his body remained in tact, he allowed Thomas to touch him. This had to happen in order to full the Torah requirement of the scapegoat remaining alive. And, as I showed in a previous post, the concept of spiritual death does exist. There is no mention of death regardless of how it reads in the European languages which are usually translated to support their doctrine. Again, in the original languages. It does not say he died. If you look at all the instances of people dying in the New Testament, you can look at the original language to see how they describe it. Yet, when he was on the stake, it does not say he died. So can do you own research on that issue. But, for me, I believe Yehoshua died according to the Scriptures. And according to the Scriptures, it is the spiritual body (the sacrificial lamb) that dies, not the physical one which is intend to be the scapegoat and keep alive.

                           

                          Now, I will summary my points.

                          The technicality that I bring up in this thread is that physical body of Yehoshua is cannot represent the sacrificial lamb of Yom Kippur. I believe that the Bible says that his spiritual body (true self) represents the sacrificial lamb while his physical body is the scapegoat that bore our sins and made atonement with the sacrificial body. I also believe that both goats made atonement on Yom Kippur so both the spiritual and physical bodies of Yehoshua made atonement. It is his spiritual body that is the High Priest in the heavenly tabernacle while the physical body will return as the eternal David--King of Israel--in the flesh.

                          The reason this subject is important to me is that the belief that the physical body of Yehoshua being a sacrifice is a prime reason many people discredit the New Testament and believe it contradicts Torah. The bottom line that is has not been address is that human sacrifice is forbidden. So, my reasoning for starting this thread is to show that the sacrifice of Yehoshua is in perfect accordance with the literal and spiritual understanding of Torah. I am literally able to correspond every detail of the Yom Kippur sacrifice to the event of the New Testament on both the corporeal and spiritual level. Therefore, the issue is not whether or not Yehoshua died for our sins. The point I am making is that this atonement was made in the heavenly tabernacle and not at Calvary.

                          I have saved my posts and I will make an article of it. But before I do, I look forward to more of your rebuttals. I consider you (Carlo) and John to be students of Torah, believers in YHWH and disciples of Yehoshua. So, if it can stand up to your rebuttals, then I will write the article. If not, I will trash this belief and give praise to Yah for opening my eyes.

                          Shalom,

                          Yehochanan


                          --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com, BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Shalom Yehochanan!
                          > Thank you very much again for your message, and your time spent in studying this Important Issue.
                          > Without going into Scriptural details, that, YHWH (Yahweh) Willing, I reserve to do later, because it would take a longer Scriptural Study, now I would like to kindly tell you that seems that you are doing the same mistake, on the "Spiritual" side, that you said Christians do on the "physical" side of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice.
                          > It seems that you are "Spiritualizing" EVERY aspect of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice, as if He did NOT have to live a physical life as a human being, as if He did NOT have to overcome His human flesh, as if He did NOT have to suffer and die physically.
                          > Let me ask you how would you "Spiritualize" YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Command, at the Passover time, for the Memorial of His Death?
                          > Would the unleavened bread, that He told His Disciples to eat, symbolize His "Spiritual" body, and NOT His physical body, that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed?
                          > Would the wine, that He told His Disciples to drink, symbolize His "Spiritual" blood, and NOT His physical blood, the Blood of The New Covenant shed for many?
                          > How could ALL that be ONLY Spiritual, and ALL the physical aspects denied?
                          > What I see written in The Scrittures are BOTH Spiritual and physical aspects of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice. And I believe that NEITHER of them have to be denied.
                          > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
                          > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
                          > Carlo Tognoni
                          > BYT YHWH
                          > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
                          > www.byt-yhwh.org
                          > =====================================================================
                          >    
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message ----
                          > From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael yehochanan@...
                          > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 10:39:44 PM
                          > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?
                          >
                          >
                          > Shalom to All Who Read This,For all who read this post, please read all of the verses and quotes. I apologize for the length of the post. But, this is not an easy subject to explain with a verse or two. I obviously do not have the wisdom to explain the most advanced things in a short parable like the Master. My explanations are based primarily on the written texts and not my own reasoning or interpretations. So, if they are read in detail, you will not understand my thoughts.
                          > In addition, all quotes are from the King James Bible for convenience. I personally consider the Hebrew Tanakh and the Aramaic Peshitta as my source texts. I am in no way endorsing this translation nor do I believe the names of the Creator and His son are Lord, God or Jesus. I just pasted the text from the online Bible text. My suggestion is that you read the verses in the version of your choice--preferably the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek texts.
                          >  
                          > Carlo said, There is no whatsoever doubt, and I fully Agree about Spiritual, Symbolic, Allegorical, Typical way of speaking ALSO used in reference to the Sacrifice of YHWSU (Yahshua), as you have well explained. But, as you know very well, ANY Spiritual Pattern has a correspondent physical pattern.
                          > This is absolutely correct. However, the point I am making in this thread is that spirit is separate from the corporeal. The spiritual pattern is completely spiritual and the corresponding spiritual pattern is the physical sacrificial rites of Israel--not the execution of physical body of Yehoshua. Also, the physical death/execution of the Messiah did not fulfill the requirements of being a Pesach/Passover or Yom Kippur sacrifice on the physical or spiritual level. We will show in this post that the complete atonement was all performed at the spiritual level. Allof the actions were done at the spiritual level. These are the only points I am making in this thread.
                          > The physical body of Yehoshua does not even come into the equation. The confusion is over the meaning of apparentlycorporeal terms like blood, death, body, and the like. So, when we read the verses that say that Yehoshua offered his body as a sacrifice, we interpret each words as being physical. Using physical definitions, we have no choice but to interpret Yehoshua as a physical sacrifice. What I will show in this post is that the physical correspondence is the literal rituals of the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifices while the spiritual correspondence is the very act of Yehoshua instituting the New Covenant in the heavenly/spiritual tabernacle.
                          > I will get into the body of this message shortly. But, first, I would like to review the exactly what the new covenant is. Jeremiah 31:31-34¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I
                          > will remember their sin no more.
                          > There are many other verses in the Tanakh that say the same thing--mostly in the books of Isaiah and Ezekiel. As we see, the real new covenant is instituted when Israel--and Gentiles who are yoked to the Covenant--have their minds purified and perfected, the Torah is put in their hearts, and their sins are forgiven.
                          > We also read about this perfect state in the New Testament--particul arly I John 3. I request that all who read this post review that short chapter. In that chapter, we read that true disciples of Yehoshua will attained a state of sinlessness and be given the title, Sons of God. We are taught in the Book of John by the Messiah that we will attained perfection (John 17:23). And when we check the Aramaic and Greek, they both says perfection/completi on. At this point, we will truly be brethren with the Messiah (Hebrews 2:11).
                          > It is taught in the churches that we cannot attain this state of perfection until the resurrection of the dead. However, Yehoshua taught that we can attain this state in this lifetime. This is the whole subject of I John 3. This is what is described in the Book of Hebrews (mainly) and throughout the New Testament as a whole. So, we learn that the sacrificial system is in reality as physical representation of the spiritual actions that occur when one is passed from death to life (John 5:24).
                          > Keep in mind, I said that the New Testament teaches that ministry of Yehoshua is what saved and atone, not his death on the cross. The Master himself said that he who hears (obeys) his word and believe in him has eternal life. It is not his death that atones but his teachings and ministry.John 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
                          > I checked the whole Tanakh and New Testament. There is not one verse that says that actual execution of the execution of physical body of the Son did anything. All that did is make Yehoshua the lord of the living and the death. The issue is never about atonement. Paul says this in the following verse.Rom 14:9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
                          > Now, I will show that allegorical statements in the Pauline writing and the Book of Hebrews merely details the realization of the new covenant (that being the transformation of the believers). We will see that the physical body of Yehoshua was not the sacrifice and has nothing to do with the animal sacrificial system at all.. In order to show that, all we need to do is look throughout the New Testament to get the correct definitions of the words. Then we can correctly understand the statements. I will focus on chapters 8 and 9 of the Book of Hebrews with references to the words of Paul.
                          > The context of chapters 8 and 9 in the book of Hebrews is the Yom Kippur offering. Some of the requirements performing the Yom Kippur sacrifice are:
                          > 1. A Temple/Tabernacle (with vessels and compartments such as the Holy of Holies)
                          > 2. A High Priest
                          > 3.. Two goats/lambs (Yehoshua is the sacrificial lamb and the Satan is the Azazel that is sent away).
                          > Keep in mind, the New Testament teaches that Yehoshua fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice once and for all. As I noted before, he did not fulfill this with his physical body because there was no physical tabernacle or temple. We cannot flip back and forth from physical to spiritual. Either the whole thing was physical or the whole thing was spiritual. This is what Paul taught.1Corinthians 2:13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
                          > We humans want to make everything physical. We demand a physical God so we choose Jesus.. Similarly, we want a make the spiritual sacrifice of Yehoshua a physical event which it is not. As unbelievable at it may seem, the whole sacrifice for our sins was performed in the spiritual realm and has nothing to do with the physical. I will show examples of this in the scriptures later on in the post.
                          > We will see in the Book of Hebrews that it contrasts the physical and the spiritual aspect of Yom Kippur. The physical rites were done by regular humans and physical animals were killed in a physical tabernacle while Yehoshua did the spiritual rites with a spiritual temple, a spiritual sacrifice and the like. The Book of Hebrew goes to great detail to show that the sacrifice is physical in complete contrast to the physical sacrifice of ancient Israel.
                          > So, we will now show that New Testament teaches that everythingconcerning the Yom Kippur observance and the Tabernacle/Temple is merely a physical representation of the spiritual reality. This everythinginclude the High Priest, the blood, death, sacrifice, vessels and the like are all spiritual. With this knowledge, we can read scriptures detailing the death of Yehoshua in the proper context--the spiritual context.  
                          > The Tabernacle(Spiritual or Physical)
                          >  Hebrews 9:8-10The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
                          > As we see, the first tabernacle was physical. This is the same tabernacle that Moshe saw in his vision (Exodus 25:9). But the context of Hebrews 9 is that it is talking about a spiritual (non-physical) tabernacle. Physical sacrifices are done in the physical tabernacle. Spiritual sacrifices are done in a spiritual tabernacle. The physical body of Yehoshua is not in the spiritual tabernacle nor was his physical body sacrificed. The whole thing is spiritual. This theme is throughout the New Testament. The Tabernacle in which Yehoshua performed his sacrifice is Spiritual.Hebrews 9:23-24¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
                          > And no, a human sacrifice is not better than an animal sacrifice--not even the body of the Messiah. THE BLOOD(Spiritual or Physical)
                          > One verse that leads Christians to believe that the bloodthat made atonement for us was physical is the following.Hebrews 9:12-15Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it
                          > is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
                          > First notice that it says that he was offered without spot. The book is lying if is saying that his physical body was without spot. But, it is not talking about his physical body at all. It is his spiritual body that is the subject of this book. To imply this is speaking of the physical takes it out of context. Later, we will see that all the other words like blood and death are also spiritual.
                          > This section of the Book of Hebrew that I just posted above is talking about how Yehoshua institutes the TRUE NEW COVENANT. This must be done in the same pattern of the Torah with the different being that this is all on the spiritual level.
                          > Let us look in the Torah and see what happens with the blood. We will see that if Yehoshua performed the spiritual sacrifice of Yom Kippur once and for all, he must sprinkle the blood on the vessels and the people if the whole sacrifice is in accordance with the Law. Exodus 24:6-8And Moses took half of the blood, and put [it] in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
                          > We can see that the Book of Hebrews is a making a direct reference to the Torah to show that the spiritual rite of atonement of believers directly parallels the physical rite originally performed by Moses.
                          > The Torah is definitely talking about physical blood. But, is the Book of Hebrews talking about his physical blood? According to popular belief, the Book of Hebrews is also talking about physical blood. They believe the blood of the Old Covenant is animal blood and the blood of the New Testament is Yehoshua's physical blood. But both are physical. The New Testament cannot possibly be talking about physical blood because it is not talking about his physical body.
                          > In addition, for in order for us to a part of the new covenant, we must be sprinkled with this blood. Yet, the New Testament does say what we are sprinkled with blood. So, we must ask ourselves if were are sprinkled with the spiritual blood or the physical blood of Yehoshua. The obvious answer is spiritual blood. It is spiritual blood that is shed and sprinkled on us to cleanse us.
                          > Let's see an example given by Peter that the sprinkling of the blood of the Messiah cannot be interpreted as being physical blood. Again, the spiritual tabernacle only deals with spiritual blood.1Peter 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
                          > We see clearly that the term sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christis not literally speaking about his physical blood. Therefore, we know that both physical and spiritual blood exist. Which one was spilled in the spiritual tabernacle? Yes, the spiritual blood. Physical blood nor physical flesh can enter the spiritual tabernacle.1Corinthians 15:50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
                          > Again, the correspondence between the two is the physical rites performed by the Israelites compared to the spiritual rite performed by Yehoshua. The contrast is ALWAYS between the Hebrew high priest and our high priest, Yehoshua, in the spiritual temple. The reason I quote the Torah is to give the exact context. The Book of Hebrews corresponds everything back to the Torah sacrifices-- not the execution of the Messiah at Calvary. It is not even mentioned. The issue is the fact that Yehoshua ascended to the spiritual, heavenly tabernacle to do a spiritual sacrifice. And this leads to the next topic.THE SACRIFICE(Physical or Spiritual)
                          > It has been said that the physical body of Yehoshua was the sacrifice. However, the concept of spiritual sacrifice exists in the New Testament. We already showed above that there is a spiritual tabernacle, and spiritual blood. Now, is there a spiritual sacrifice? We will now show that only spiritual sacrifices are performed in the spiritual tabernacle. And we will also show that all the references to Yehoshua being a sacrifice are also spiritual/allegoric al.1Peter 2:5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
                          > So, we just read that the concept of spiritual sacrifices exist. Now, let see if Yehoshua was himself a physical sacrifice or a spiritual sacrifice. In order for Yehoshua to be a proper sacrifice, he must be without blemish or spot. This is stated in the Torah concerning the sacrifice of sheep, goats, rams and lambs and is repeated by Peter. This is ESPECIALLYtrue of the Pesach/Passover Lamb which the Messiah is said to represent.Exodus 12:2-5This month [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you. Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth [day] of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of [their] fathers, a lamb for an house: And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take [it] according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. Your lamb
                          > shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take [it] out from the sheep, or from the goats:1Peter 1:17-19And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
                          > The Torah is clearly saying that the Pesach lamb must be without a physical blemish. Peter says that OUR Lamb is also without blemish. Is Peter implying that Yehoshua fulfilled the Torah commandment to be without physical blemish? NO. Obviously, Yehoshua is without blemish in the sense that he is without sin. This means that he is without a spiritual blemish because he is the spiritual sacrifice. It is the spiritual aspect that his sacrificed, not the physical. He physical body cannot be a fit sacrifice because he was bruised by being beaten. So, the only possibility is spiritual.
                          > Another thing that the spiritual understanding teaches us is that Yehoshua also fulfills that requirement of being a Lamb of the first year. This is because he is the firstborn of Creation. Hence, his sacrifice occurred within one year of him becoming the firstborn of creation. THE BODY OF YEHOSHUA(Physical or Spiritual)
                          > Up to this point, we have seen that there is a spiritual counterpart for the objects associated with the physical tabernacle such as the blood and lamb/sacrifice. But, what about the body of Yehoshua? Was the physical body sacrificed or the spiritual? Let go to the scriptures so see of the Body of Messiah is physical or spiritual.1Corinthians 15:39-48All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds. [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another. [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory. So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in
                          > weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
                          > So, the question is: Was it the physical body that was sacrificed in the heavenly tabernacle or the spiritual? We see clearly that it is the spiritual body that was in the spiritual tabernacle-- not the physical. As we showed above, a corporeal body has no place in spiritual realm nor are physical sacrifices offered there. The eternal sacrifice is spiritual for only spirit is eternal. Truly, the Messiah's physical body was nothing more than an lump of dirt. Yet, his spiritual body is eternal and holy.
                          >  DEATH(Physical or Spiritual)
                          > Many of us believe that death is when the physical body stops operating. This is a physical death. But, what about a spiritual death? Is there such a thing. So far in this post, we have seen spiritual counterparts to common physical concepts. My thesis is that there all actions and objects in the spiritual sanctuary are spiritual. The sacrifice is definitely killed in the tabernacle. If animals faced a physical death in the physical tabernacle, then my thesis implies that there must a spiritual death in the spiritual sanctuary. So, let us see if there is a spiritual usage of the concept of death in the New Testament.Romans 6:4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Is Paul speaking about a
                          > physical burial and death?
                          >  
                          > This post is getting ridiculously long so will summary at this time. I can give many more examples of spiritual counterparts to common physical ideas.
                          > What I hoped to show in this post that the execution of the physical body of Yehoshua did not fulfill the requirements of being a Pesach/Passover or Yom Kippur sacrifice as atonement sin on the physical or spiritual level. It fails on the physical level because human sacrifice is forbidden in Torah and his body was blemished. Also, the Yom Kippur sacrifice, which the Book of Hebrews says he was, must be done in a Sanctuary--not on a cross or stake. Also, the sacrifice is only effective on those who accept it that day and have the blood sprinkled on them. One cannot decide the day after Yom Kippur that he wants to be cleansed that year. He must present at the time of the ritual.
                          > On the contrary, Yehoshua fulfilled all the required of the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice in the spiritual sanctuary with his spiritual body. We showed that the New Testament gives a spiritual counterpart to every aspect of the physical sacrifices of Pesach and Yom Kippur. We did that by showing that terms like death, blood, body, tabernacle and the like all have spiritual counterparts. Therefore, when we read the same verses again, we know that it is speaking on the spiritual terms and not physical.
                          > The challenge for those who have this information is to pray to the Father to reveal the true meaning of these concepts. I only give the hint that concepts like death, blood, body, and tabernacle are spiritual terms. But, what does spiritual tabernacle mean? What is spiritual blood? What is a spiritual body? This…I will not reveal in the forum. As I said before, the inner teachings are only for the true disciples of Yehoshua. The Master imparted these teachings to his apostles and the apostles passed it on from generation to generation.
                          > In the previous post, I showed using the parable of the sower that Yehoshua did not teach everyone the same thing. The masses were taught basic things (like the Beatitudes) but the inner teachings of the parables were only explained to his disciples. This same thing applies today. So, unless one receives this wisdom via the Holy Spirit, he must obtained a true spiritual teacher. Paul taught this. There is no way a person will just pick up the Bible and figure it out without the Holy Spirit or a proper teacher. This is obvious reason for all the confusion being interpreted from the Bible in first place. And since I am not anointed to teach, I will not give up the inner teachings. But, many people know these things--not just me.Rom 10:14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as
                          > it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
                          >  
                          > Lastly, keep in mind that post does not change that fact that Yehoshua died for our sins and makes complete atonement for us. The difference I made was in the meaning of such phrases. I also wanted to point out that the scriptures are not limited to our corporeal reality. For those who have a good knowledge of the Scriptures, this post hintd at the fact that there is a deeper meaning to subjects we believed our whole life and thought were simple. Another point of this thread is to show how the New Testament is perfectly in line with the Torah at the spiritual level. Lastly, I am committed to extirpating the Christian doctrines that many of us brought over with us from churchianity. They are hard to let go of. It take years and a lot of hard work and study to release those false doctrines--not to mention courage.
                          > I close this post with the words of Paul.1Corinthians 2:7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
                          > Best Wishes,
                          > Yehochanan
                          > P.S.
                          > John asked me, Please explain how Isaiah 53:5 can speak of Messiah's wounding, bruising and stripes and yet Isaiah 53:10 says, "thou shall make his soul an offering for sin". It seems to me that YHWH accepted him as an "offering for sin" while in a bruised state.
                          > Easy, it says his SOUL/Nefesh was the offering, not the physical body which is the thesis of this article. Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah being a Pesach or Yom Kippur sacrifice. It is only at the spiritual level (nefesh) that Messiah is an offering, not the physical body level..
                          > The only thing I set out to prove in this article is that the New Testament gives spiritual definitions. When they are applied to the verses in the Tanakh and the New Testament concerning the sacrifice of the Messiah, the understanding differs from that of the Christians who view everything from the physical level. Even their heaven and hell is physical.
                          > THE END
                          > --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, BYT YHWH bytyhwh@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Shalom Yehochanan!
                          > > Thank you very much for your kind reply!
                          > > There is no whatsoever doubt, and I fully Agree about Spiritual, Symbolic, Allegorical, Typical way of speaking ALSO used in reference to the Sacrifice of YHWSU (Yahshua), as you have well explained.
                          > > But, as you know very well, ANY Spiritual Pattern has a corrispondent physical pattern.
                          > > Let's see if The Old Testament spoke and prophetised about The MashiYah (MessiYah) suffering and dying of a Sacrifical Death, AS a Passover Lamb, and AS an Offering and Atonement for the sin of many.
                          > > ISAYAH CHAPTER 53
                          > >  1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of YHWH (Yahweh) revealed?
                          > > (Please, check: Yahchanan / Johh 12:38; Romans 1:16; 10:16; 1 Corinthians 1:18)
                          > >  2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: He hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
                          > > (Please, check: Yachanan / John Mark 9:12)
                          > >  3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from Him; He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
                          > > (Please, check: Yahchanan / John 1:10-11; Hebrews 4:15)
                          > >  4 Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of The Mighty One, and afflicted.
                          > > (Please, check: Mattithyah / Matthew 8:17; Hebrews 9:28; 1 Kepha / Peter 2:24)
                          > >  5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniq

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                        • John V. Cordaro
                          ... As I understand it, all sin offerings had the hands of the guilty party laid upon their heads. The act of laying on of hands ( Lev. 4:4,15,24,29,33)
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 4, 2008
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                            On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:03 PM, Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael wrote:

                            Lev 16:7-10 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat (Azazel). And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him [for] a sin offering. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

                            I have gone into great detail to show that the spiritual body of Yehoshua was the sacrifice. But what of the Azazel/scapegoat? It is the scapegoat (physical body) that bears and carries away our sins, not the sacrificial lamb (spiritual body).

                            As I understand it, all sin offerings had the hands of the guilty party laid upon their heads. The act of laying on of hands ( Lev.4:4,15,24,29,33) symbolizes the transference of sins from the guilty party to the innocent. The innocent then becomes the sin-bearer. This would have been true of the sin offering on Atonement as well, except that Aaron laid hands on YHWH's goat on behalf of all Israel rather than the sinner himself doing it as would be the case on an individual basis. You might not think this is so because Lev 16 makes no mention of that, but there was no need to. YHWH had already instructed the priests and Israel on how to properly offer a sin offering. Clarifying instructions about laying hands on the Azazel goat were necessary because this is the first time it was mentioned by YHWH.

                            In Messiah,

                            John



                            Shalom Bro. Carlo,

                            In this post, I will respond to all of your concerns pertaining to the spiritual aspect of the sacrifice of Yehoshua HaMashiach. Keep in mind that my only point is that the physical body of Yehoshua is not sacrificial lamb of Yom Kippur. I believe it is his spiritual body. I will show later in the post that the physical body is the scapegoat/Azazel while the spiritual body is the sacrificial lamb and the actual sacrifice.

                            You said, It seems that you are "Spiritualizing" EVERY aspect of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice, as if He did NOT have to live a physical life as a human being, as if He did NOT have to overcome His human flesh, as if He did NOT have to suffer and die physically.

                            I made it clear that the ONLY ASPECT that I am correcting is the implication that his physical death is the spiritual sacrifice of the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrificial lamb. I did not spiritualize anything. The Book of Hebrews states that the context of this sacrifice is in Heavenin the Spiritual tabernacle. This makes the context spiritual.

                            I showed that the terms in the narrative that corresponds Yehoshua as the Pesach/Passover Lamb and the Yom Kipper sacrificial lamb never reference the historical events of his execution at Calvary. I showed that the words used in the narrative have both physical and spiritual definitions. The context in the book of Hebrews tells us explicitly that everything took place in the spiritual sanctuary--not the planet Earth. Then I showed that New Testament itself spiritualizes all of the objects, actions, and events surrounding the physical sacrificial ritual such as spiritual blood, death, tabernacle, and the like.

                            Therefore, to proved that execution of Yehoshua at Calvary was physical, you would gave to go line for line in the Torah and show how each even perfectly fulfills the Torah requirements. Quoting a verse or two will not do it. It must line up verbatim with Torah. Otherwise, all you are doing is proving that the New Testament contradicts the Torah.

                            And I as showed you, it is impossible to show that Yehoshua fulfilled the Torah requirements because the physical body of Yehoshua failed the test of being a without spot or blemish. To fulfill the Torah, one must meet ALLof the requirements--not just some of them. I proved that he fulfilled them all spiritually. If you can, please show in the Torah that he fulfilled EACHrequirement of a Yom Kippur sacrificial lamb physically. I have already done so at the spiritual level using the definitions is got directly from the New Testament.

                            I certainly believe and proved that he had to suffer physically. However, the scriptures say that the reason was not as a sacrifice. He died, suffered and died a physical death and resurrected to be lord of the living and the dead.

                            Romans 14:9 For to this end (purpose) Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

                            The Messiah was had to died suffer and died physically and then resurrect in order to enter to spiritual tabernacle to perform the Eternal Sacrifice. So, the reason he said that Peter could not follow is because flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. So, the issue is not there is performed the Eternal Sacrifice or not. My point is that it did not occur at Calvary. It occurred in the Heavenly Tabernacle just as the Book of Hebrews says it did. This is why he told Peter that he could not go where he was about to go.

                            John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

                            You said, Let me ask you how would you "Spiritualize" YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Command, at the Passover time, for the Memorial of His Death?

                            Would the unleavened bread, that He told His Disciples to eat, symbolize

                            His "Spiritual" body, and NOT His physical body, that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed?

                            This is correct. It is an abomination to eat physical human flesh. You know that it says this in the Torah. So YOU KNOW that he was not talking about eating his physical flesh or body. I do not know why you asked me that. I will show that the body that we wanted his followers to focus on was not his physical body. The body that is the focus is the spiritual body which is HIS WORD.

                            Let us take another look at this verse that you are referring to.

                            Mat 26:26-29And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

                            Yehoshua stated that THE BREAD is his body. He had already taught them that that he is the Bread of God (John 6:33) and the Bread of Life (John 6:35). He taught that this he who eat he that comes to him shall never hunger and he that believeth on him shall never thirst (John 6:35). Let look at the whole verse to get the symbolism.

                            John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, andbelieveth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

                            His word is the bread! He is the Word and he is the Bread and he is the Life and he is the Light. All of these terms are and more are synonymous in the New Testament. It is HIS WORD that gives eternal life. This is what we just read in the previous verse. He never said that his physical body gave eternal life. The bread he is talking about is the spiritual bread, the Word of YHWH. He is not talking about his physical body which is made of earth and is not from Heaven. It is his spiritual body (self) that came from Heaven and YHWH. This is the body he is talking about.

                            For emphasis, this is another verse that show the difference between his physical body (bread) and spiritual body (spiritual bread/the Word of YHWH).

                            John 6:50-51 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

                             

                            We know that the bread he spoke of was his body. We also know that he has a spiritual body. So, the question is this. What body came down from heaven? His physical body or his spiritual body?

                            What bread will give eternal life? Will eating his physical flesh give eternal life or will obey his word and believing in the Father give eternal life. If you check the scriptures, the way to eternal life is obeying the word of Messiah and having complete devotion to YHWH. When we search the scriptures--Tanakh and New Testament--we see that salvation and eternal life is ALWAYS associated with obedience to YHWH and his Torah.

                            John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth (obeys) my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

                            Mat 19:16-17And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

                            This is the hint at symbolic meaning of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. It has nothing to do with a physical ritual or symbolizing the eating of his physical flesh. This means we have his the Torah (Word, Bread, Flesh) in our hearts/minds and we live according to the Word of the Father by means of His Son.

                            The next verse is the biggest pr

                            (Message over 64 KB, truncated)

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                            Shalom Yehochanan!   I am Very Glad that you have clarified that the ONLY ASPECT thet you are correcting would be the implication that YHWSU (Yahshua) s
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 4, 2008
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                              Shalom Yehochanan!

                               

                              I am Very Glad that you have clarified that the ONLY ASPECT thet you are correcting would be the implication that YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical death would be the spiritual sacrifice of the Passover and Atonements sacrificial lambs, confirming ALL the other physical aspects of His Life.

                               

                              But even in this way, you are still denying YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical sacrifice, saying that He would NOT fullfil the requirements of YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah), because His physical body was "bruised".

                               

                              For me, instead, the bruising of His physical body, with wounds and stripes, were part of His physical sacrifice, which ultimate stage was the impalement, with a violente and painful physical death.

                               

                              Very interestingly it is the reference that NONE of His bones was broken, just as it was the requirement for the Passover lamb, fulfilling also the Scriptural Prophecy for The MashiYah (MessiYah) (Yahchanan / John 19:33-36; Exodus 12:46; Numbers 9:12; Psalm 34:20).

                               

                              And, just as John Cordaro well explained, "soul" (Hebrew "nephesh") means "life", "living person", "body+breath of life" (also the animals are "souls", "nephesh", living creatures), and NOT spirit (that is Hebrew "ruwach") or "spiritual person", or something of "spiritual" in us, as the FALSE idea and doctrine of the "immortal soul".

                               

                              So that IsaYah 53:10 was referring to "soul" as "life", "living person", "body+breath of life" of YHWSU (Yahshua), Who physically Died, as an Offering for sin, including also bruising Him, and then He was Resurrected to Spiritual Eternal Life.

                               

                              IsaYah 53:10 -

                               10 Yet it pleased YHWH (Yahweh) to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief: when You shall make His soul an Offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the Pleasure of YHWH (Yahweh) shall prosper in His hand.

                               

                              Please, read my post in which I have quoted ISAYAH CHAPTER 53 with all the references and fulfillments of that Scriptural Prophecy in YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Life.

                               

                              Also you have mixed the two goats offered on the Day of Atonements. Actually YHWH (Yahweh)'s goat was physically sacrificed, killed, just as YHWSU (Yahshua) was physically sacrificed, killed, while on Azazel's goat (the scapegoat) all the sins were Spiritually put, just as YHWSU (Yahshua) Spiritually bore/bears, and atoned/atones all the sins of the world.

                               

                              About the symbols of unleavened bread and wine, they clearly are the Memorial of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical Death, and NOT of His "Spiritual" Death (???), of course.

                               

                              1 Corinthians 11:23-26 -

                               23 For I have received of the Master that which also I delivered unto you, That the Master YHWSU (Yahshua) the same night in which He was betrayed took bread:
                               24 And when He had given thanks, He brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is My Body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of Me.
                               25 After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, saying, This cup is the New Yestament in My blood: this do you, as oft as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.
                               26 For as often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you do shew the Master's Death till He come.

                               

                              Would His Disciples remember His SPIRITUAL Death (???), or His PHYSICAL Death?

                               

                              It is extremely obvious that YHWSU (Yahshua) Died PHYSICALLY, and NOT SPIRITUALLY, and He Lives SPIRITUALLY Forever! Or do you believe that He DIED SPIRITUALLY???

                               

                              You have quoted Yahchanan (John) 6:50-52, trying to explain that the bread to eat at YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Memorial, would be symbolic of the "Spiritual" bread, which comes down from Heaven.

                               

                              Please continue to read, to see what really was the Bread that came down from Heaven...

                               

                              Yahchanan (John) 6:50-58 -

                               50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
                               51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the Bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
                               52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us His flesh to eat?
                               53 Then YHWSU (Yahshua) said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
                               54 Whoso eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has Eternal Life; and I will raise him up at the Last Day.
                               55 For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
                               56 He that eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him.
                               57 As The Living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eats Me, even he shall live by Me.
                               58 This is that bread which came down from Heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live for ever.

                               

                              The Bread that came down from Heaven was HIS FLESH!

                               

                              Was YHWSU (Yahshua) saying to physically eat His physical flesh, and to physically drink His physical blood, to have Eternal Life, to live forever?

                               

                              Of course NOT, because that would be absolutely contrary to YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah).

                               

                              Was YHWSU (Yahshua) saying to physically eat bread, symbolizing His "Spiritual" flesh, and to physically drink wine, symbolizing His "Spiritual" blood, to have Eternal Life, to life forever?

                               

                              Of course NOT, because flesh and blood canNOT inherit The Reign of YHWH (Yahweh) (1 Corinthians 15:50), so that there is NO KIND of flesh and blood in YHWH (Yahweh)'s Reign, including, of course, "Spiritual" flesh and blood.

                               

                              YHWH (Yahweh) is Spirit a Spirit (Yahchanan / John 4:24), and NOT "Spiritual" flesh and blood, and the SAME is YHWSU (Yahshua) NOW!

                               

                              Was YHWSU (Yahshua) saying to physically eat bread, symbolizing to Spiritually eat His physical flesh given for the life of the world (that is, the Bread that came down from Heaven - See Yahchanan / John 6:51), and to physically drink wine, symbolizing to Spiritually drink His physical blood shed for our sins, to have Eternal Life, to life forever? YES, I believe so!

                               

                              Otherwise, please, show me, in The Scriptures, WHERE and HOW would YHWSU (Yahshua) have given His "Spiritual" flesh, and have shed His "Spiritual" blood???

                               

                              And, please, do NOT tell me that to eat His "Spiritual" flesh, and to drink His "Spiritual" blood would be to follow His Perfect Example, in Keeping YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah), since all the Fathers from the righteous Abel, and then the Children of Israel ALREADY had YHWH (Yahweh)'s PERFECT Law (Torah) to Follow, LONG before the Coming of YHWSU (Yahshua).

                               

                              So, in summary, for me, YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice was BOTH physical AND Spiritual, COMPLETELY fulfilling Passover and Atonements requirements, BOTH physically and Spiritually.

                               

                              Of course, He did NOT Die "Spiritually" - He Died physically, and He Lives Spiritually Forever!

                               

                              His physical Death and Sacrifice (symbolized from the unleavened bread and wine that we take in His Memorial), just as YHWH (Yahweh)'s Passover and Atonements lambs, covers, atones, takes away our sins, and His Spiritual Life in us, through The Set Apart Spirit, empowers us to Keep YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law, Writing Them on our minds and hearts, following His Perfect Example, to become Perfect just as our Heavenly Father, YHWH (Yahweh) is PERFECT (Mattithyah / Matthew 5:43-48)!

                               

                              May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!

                               

                              True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),

                               

                              Carlo Tognoni

                               

                              BYT YHWH

                              The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua

                              www.byt-yhwh.org

                               

                              =====================================================================

                               

                               

                               



                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael <yehochanan@...>
                              To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 4:03:20 PM
                              Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?

                              Shalom Bro. Carlo,

                              In this post, I will respond to all of your concerns pertaining to the spiritual aspect of the sacrifice of Yehoshua HaMashiach. Keep in mind that my only point is that the physical body of Yehoshua is not sacrificial lamb of Yom Kippur. I believe it is his spiritual body. I will show later in the post that the physical body is the scapegoat/Azazel while the spiritual body is the sacrificial lamb and the actual sacrifice.

                              You said, It seems that you are "Spiritualizing" EVERY aspect of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice, as if He did NOT have to live a physical life as a human being, as if He did NOT have to overcome His human flesh, as if He did NOT have to suffer and die physically.

                              I made it clear that the ONLY ASPECT that I am correcting is the implication that his physical death is the spiritual sacrifice of the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrificial lamb. I did not spiritualize anything. The Book of Hebrews states that the context of this sacrifice is in Heaven in the Spiritual tabernacle. This makes the context spiritual.

                              I showed that the terms in the narrative that corresponds Yehoshua as the Pesach/Passover Lamb and the Yom Kipper sacrificial lamb never reference the historical events of his execution at Calvary. I showed that the words used in the narrative have both physical and spiritual definitions. The context in the book of Hebrews tells us explicitly that everything took place in the spiritual sanctuary--not the planet Earth. Then I showed that New Testament itself spiritualizes all of the objects, actions, and events surrounding the physical sacrificial ritual such as spiritual blood, death, tabernacle, and the like.

                              Therefore, to proved that execution of Yehoshua at Calvary was physical, you would gave to go line for line in the Torah and show how each even perfectly fulfills the Torah requirements. Quoting a verse or two will not do it. It must line up verbatim with Torah. Otherwise, all you are doing is proving that the New Testament contradicts the Torah.

                              And I as showed you, it is impossible to show that Yehoshua fulfilled the Torah requirements because the physical body of Yehoshua failed the test of being a without spot or blemish. To fulfill the Torah, one must meet ALL of the requirements- -not just some of them. I proved that he fulfilled them all spiritually. If you can, please show in the Torah that he fulfilled EACH requirement of a Yom Kippur sacrificial lamb physically. I have already done so at the spiritual level using the definitions is got directly from the New Testament.

                              I certainly believe and proved that he had to suffer physically. However, the scriptures say that the reason was not as a sacrifice. He died, suffered and died a physical death and resurrected to be lord of the living and the dead.

                              Romans 14:9 For to this end (purpose) Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

                              The Messiah was had to died suffer and died physically and then resurrect in order to enter to spiritual tabernacle to perform the Eternal Sacrifice. So, the reason he said that Peter could not follow is because flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. So, the issue is not there is performed the Eternal Sacrifice or not. My point is that it did not occur at Calvary. It occurred in the Heavenly Tabernacle just as the Book of Hebrews says it did. This is why he told Peter that he could not go where he was about to go.

                              John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

                              You said, Let me ask you how would you "Spiritualize" YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Command, at the Passover time, for the Memorial of His Death?

                              Would the unleavened bread, that He told His Disciples to eat, symbolize

                              His "Spiritual" body, and NOT His physical body, that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed?

                              This is correct. It is an abomination to eat physical human flesh. You know that it says this in the Torah. So YOU KNOW that he was not talking about eating his physical flesh or body. I do not know why you asked me that. I will show that the body that we wanted his followers to focus on was not his physical body. The body that is the focus is the spiritual body which is HIS WORD.

                              Let us take another look at this verse that you are referring to.

                              Mat 26:26-29And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

                              Yehoshua stated that THE BREAD is his body. He had already taught them that that he is the Bread of God (John 6:33) and the Bread of Life (John 6:35). He taught that this he who eat he that comes to him shall never hunger and he that believeth on him shall never thirst (John 6:35). Let look at the whole verse to get the symbolism.

                              John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

                              His word is the bread!

                              He is the Word and he is the Bread and he is the Life and he is the Light. All of these terms are and more are synonymous in the New Testament. It is HIS WORD that gives eternal life.. This is what we just read in the previous verse. He never said that his physical body gave eternal life. The bread he is talking about is the spiritual bread, the Word of YHWH. He is not talking about his physical body which is made of earth and is not from Heaven. It is his spiritual body (self) that came from Heaven and YHWH. This is the body he is talking about.

                              For emphasis, this is another verse that show the difference between his physical body (bread) and spiritual body (spiritual bread/the Word of YHWH).

                              John 6:50-51 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

                               

                              We know that the bread he spoke of was his body. We also know that he has a spiritual body. So, the question is this. What body came down from heaven? His physical body or his spiritual body?

                              What bread will give eternal life? Will eating his physical flesh give eternal life or will obey his word and believing in the Father give eternal life. If you check the scriptures, the way to eternal life is obeying the word of Messiah and having complete devotion to YHWH. When we search the scriptures-- Tanakh and New Testament--we see that salvation and eternal life is ALWAYS associated with obedience to YHWH and his Torah.

                              John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth (obeys) my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

                              Mat 19:16-17And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

                              This is the hint at symbolic meaning of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. It has nothing to do with a physical ritual or symbolizing the eating of his physical flesh. This means we have his the Torah (Word, Bread, Flesh) in our hearts/minds and we live according to the Word of the Father by means of His Son.

                              The next verse is the biggest proof that he is differentiating between physical bread and spiritual bread.

                              John 6:55-58 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

                              In Hebraic thought, bread symbolized wisdom. There are two types of bread. Bread from heaven and bread from earth. Yehoshua is speaking of the bread from heaven--spiritual bread--not the bread that we can touch.

                              You asked, Would the wine, that He told His Disciples to drink, symbolize His "Spiritual" blood, and NOT His physical blood, the Blood of The New Covenant shed for many?

                              Yes. The same thing can be shown with the drink. This next verse will give the context of both the bread and the drink. This next verse will show that both the bread and the drink he was talking about was spiritual.

                              Matthew 26:27-29 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

                              We know that the bread and drink he is talking about is spiritual because he told his disciples that they will drink it with him in His Father's kingdom. The Father's kingdom is not physical. It is spiritual bread and spiritual drink that is in the kingdom of heaven, not physical bread and drink.

                              Now, it this is not proven to you yet. I will not directly show that the New Testament spiritualizes everything including bread and drink. It is this spiritual bread and drink that Yehoshua is talking about. So, it is not me who spiritualizes everything the New Testament does this. Without further day, read this verse.

                              1Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

                              Again, his physical body is not from heaven. Only his spiritual body is. His physical body is clearly said the be earthly from the physical seed of David.

                              Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

                              The bread/body that Yehoshua is talking is about is from heaven. Two different bodies. So, to answer you question--NO- -Yehoshua is not talking about the body that was that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed. That was his physical body which is from physical matter, not from heaven. His spiritual body is directly from YHWH as you proved in detail when you showed that Yehoshua did not pre-exist.

                              My last email was too long to show the EVERY DETAIL of the sacrificial system is spiritualized in the New Testament. So, often time, when we see a word that we think I physical, the New Testament gives the REAL meaning which is spiritual. So, again, Yehoshua is talking about the spiritual bread and drink, not physical..

                              You asked, How could ALL that be ONLY Spiritual, and ALL the physical aspects denied?

                              I do not deny any physical aspects. He had to teach physically. He had to demonstrate physically complete obedience, love and devotion to YHWH in the flesh as an perfect example for us. Let us look at a good verse that will clarify this more.

                              Hebrews 5:6-9 As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

                              We just read above that we only attained eternal life by obeying (hearing) his word and believing in the Father. So, by him suffering physically, this gives his followers the faith that we can obey to the point of death as well. Complete obedience and faith in YHWH is required for His Grace and Salvation. And the Scriptures tell us that he will not make us endure more than we can bear.. This is why is says the following.

                              1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

                              So, I look to the Scriptures to tell me the reason for his physical suffering and death. It literally tells us. There is no need to interpret. He suffered to give us an example the perfect obedience. And he died so that he could be lord over the living and the dead. Again, nowhere does it say his physical death at Calvary fulfilled Pesach or Yom Kippur. This what done in the spiritual tabernacles which I showed in the two previous posts.

                              Lastly, you said, What I see written in The Scriptures are BOTH Spiritual and physical aspects of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice. And I believe that NEITHER of them have to be denied.

                              Neither do I. However, as I said many times, there is not one place in the Bible that says that his execution at Calvary fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur offering. This was done in the spiritual temple.

                              You are incorrect to say that the physical abuses, humiliation and torment he suffered are called sacrifices in the Bible. It does not say this even once in the Tanakh or New Testament. I literally read every verse in the Tanakh and New Testament detailing the suffering of the Messiah. No once are his sufferings called a sacrifice, atonement or propitiation. Since you called them sacrifices, you naturally assume that I disregard the important of the Messiah suffering and dying physically. I do not. Rather, the Scriptures says the ONLY SACRIFICE was his soul (spiritual body), not his physical body (Isaiah 53:10).

                              The Bible DOES tell us the reason for his suffering and death. I already documented in this and a previous post, the reason for his death (which was not atonement). Apostle Peter tells us the reason that he suffered.

                              1Peter 2:21-25 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

                              NOW, I WILL EXPLAIN THE REAL MEANING OF THE PHYSICAL SUFFERING OF YEHOSHUA!!

                              It is unfortunate because with this explanation, I do not even need the words that I said above. Since I spent two hours typing so, I will leave them there for you to read. But, this explanation with explained the meaning of the spiritual sacrifice of Yehoshua and the reason for his physical suffering. I actually should make this post next part of the post a separate post.. But, if you are like me, you will read the first one and respond to it when I think that the remained of the post will answer all questions you have.. So, consider this post a rough draft of a article I will write in the future on this subject.

                              Recall, I said that the physical body of Yehoshua was never called a sacrifice. Rather, it was his spiritual body. I also said that Yehoshua fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice at the spiritual level and not the physical. In truth, the true sacrifice that made atonement for our sins was his spiritual body. However, his physical body was the scapegoat/Azazel that bared our sins. BOTH GOATS made atonement. The physical body is not a Sacrifice even though it also was required for atonement. We will learn that this in true in the Torah.

                              Keep in mind…the New Testament says that the Messiah died for our sins, was buried, and resurrected according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Therefore, to understand this properly, we must go to the only Scriptures that Paul could have been talking about at that time--the Tanakh. Also remember we are talking about Yehoshua fulfilling the Yom Kippur sacrifice. We know that the purpose of the Yom Kippur rituals was to make atonement for all Israel (every year). Yehoshua accomplished this once and for all. So, all we need to do is go to Leviticus 16, read the whole chapter, and then look in the New Testament to see where everything matches up. Due to the length, I request you open you Bible up to Leviticus 16 since it would be too long to cut and paste to this post. Then I can just refer individual verses.

                              The reason we interpret the physical suffering and death of Yehoshua with the Yom Kippur sacrifice because we assume that it is the sacrificial lamb that bears our sins. This is incorrect. Before I continue on, let us look to the verse that is the source of the confusion.

                              1Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

                              This is a direct reference to Isaiah 53 which says the same thing about the Messiah--that being--his physical flesh bared our sins. And we know that we are talking about the physical flesh because the spiritual body did not hang on the tree/cross/stake. We will now inspect Leviticus 16 and see that it is not the sacrificial lamb that bares the sin, it is the scapegoat/azazel (which is not called a sacrifice) that bears the sin.

                              First of all, to fulfill the Yom Kippur sacrifice, we need TWO GOATS, not one. One goat is the sacrifice for sin, the other is not a sacrifice.

                              Lev 16:7-10 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat (Azazel). And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him [for] a sin offering. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

                              I have gone into great detail to show that the spiritual body of Yehoshua was the sacrifice. But what of the Azazel/scapegoat? It is the scapegoat (physical body) that bears and carries away our sins, not the sacrificial lamb (spiritual body).

                              Lev 16:20-22And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat (scapegoat/Azazel): And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

                              We see there that it is the scapegoat that bears the iniquity, not the sacrificial lamb. We know that Yehoshua is the sacrificial lamb and we know that he is bore our sins. But, it is Yehoshua as the scapegoat that bore out sins, not as the sacrificial lamb. Also note that the scapegoat never enters the Tabernacle. This supports what I said that the spiritual body (sacrificial lamb) entered the (spiritual) tabernacle and was sacrifices while the physical body (scapegoat) did not. The physical body was considered accurse (for us), placed in a tomb and resurrected. The spiritual body is what entered the Heavenly Temple.

                              Now, read Galatians 3:13.

                              Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

                              Again, notice that it mentions him being on a tree (like in the Peter reference above) to make sure we do not confuse the physical body with the spiritual. It is the scapegoat (physical body) that was made a curse for us, not his spiritual body (the sacrificial lamb) which is holy.

                              I believe I have made my point so far, but I have one more thing to add. Recall, I said everything involving the Yom Kippur service is in the New Testament. Well, what does it means that the scapegoat (physical body of Yehoshua) was sent into a land not inhabited in the wilderness?

                              Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

                              This is explained in the Book of Acts. This is the physical death that Yehoshua experienced. Yes, as I said, I do not exclude the importance of the physical aspect of the sacrifice. It is also crucial.

                              Acts 2:24-32 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

                              This is speaking of the period of time that Yehoshua spent in a state of separation from holiness. However, this is what he cried out to the Father to deliver him from. It is funny how people think that when he asked the cup to be removed from him because he was afraid of death. The truth is that he did not ever want to be in a state of uncleanness and impurity. However, the Father raised him up to take his rightful place as King of Israel. Hence he is truly the physical king of Israel and at the same time, the High Priest in the spiritual temple.

                              But we also must remember that the scapegoat must be alive. I believe that his physical body remained alive in order to fulfill Torah. This is why it says that even though his body was in the grave, it did not see corruption. In the case of Yehoshua, it says (in the Aramaic) that he surrendered his spirit (John 19:30). In the Greek texts (and I checked several different ones), it says he gave his spirit into the hands of another. And when we read of instances of persons dying in the Hebrew Tanakh, it always used the word muth--and he died. The things happens in the New Testament. Yet, in this case, you do not see the word he died. His death was spiritual because he was in a state of separation from holiness. And to prove that his body remained in tact, he allowed Thomas to touch him. This had to happen in order to full the Torah requirement of the scapegoat remaining alive. And, as I showed in a previous post, the concept of spiritual death does exist. There is no mention of death regardless of how it reads in the European languages which are usually translated to support their doctrine. Again, in the original languages. It does not say he died. If you look at all the instances of people dying in the New Testament, you can look at the original language to see how they describe it. Yet, when he was on the stake, it does not say he died. So can do you own research on that issue. But, for me, I believe Yehoshua died according to the Scriptures. And according to the Scriptures, it is the spiritual body (the sacrificial lamb) that dies, not the physical one which is intend to be the scapegoat and keep alive.

                               

                              Now, I will summary my points.

                              The technicality that I bring up in this thread is that physical body of Yehoshua is cannot represent the sacrificial lamb of Yom Kippur. I believe that the Bible says that his spiritual body (true self) represents the sacrificial lamb while his physical body is the scapegoat that bore our sins and made atonement with the sacrificial body. I also believe that both goats made atonement on Yom Kippur so both the spiritual and physical bodies of Yehoshua made atonement. It is his spiritual body that is the High Priest in the heavenly tabernacle while the physical body will return as the eternal David--King of Israel--in the flesh.

                              The reason this subject is important to me is that the belief that the physical body of Yehoshua being a sacrifice is a prime reason many people discredit the New Testament and believe it contradicts Torah. The bottom line that is has not been address is that human sacrifice is forbidden. So, my reasoning for starting this thread is to show that the sacrifice of Yehoshua is in perfect accordance with the literal and spiritual understanding of Torah. I am literally able to correspond every detail of the Yom Kippur sacrifice to the event of the New Testament on both the corporeal and spiritual level. Therefore, the issue is not whether or not Yehoshua died for our sins. The point I am making is that this atonement was made in the heavenly tabernacle and not at Calvary.

                              I have saved my posts and I will make an article of it. But before I do, I look forward to more of your rebuttals. I consider you (Carlo) and John to be students of Torah, believers in YHWH and disciples of Yehoshua. So, if it can stand up to your rebuttals, then I will write the article. If not, I will trash this belief and give praise to Yah for opening my eyes.

                              Shalom,

                              Yehochanan


                              --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Shalom Yehochanan!
                              > Thank you very much again for your message, and your time spent in studying this Important Issue.
                              > Without going into Scriptural details, that, YHWH (Yahweh) Willing, I reserve to do later, because it would take a longer Scriptural Study, now I would like to kindly tell you that seems that you are doing the same mistake, on the "Spiritual" side, that you said Christians do on the "physical" side of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice.
                              > It seems that you are "Spiritualizing" EVERY aspect of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice, as if He did NOT have to live a physical life as a human being, as if He did NOT have to overcome His human flesh, as if He did NOT have to suffer and die physically.
                              > Let me ask you how would you "Spiritualize" YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Command, at the Passover time, for the Memorial of His Death?
                              > Would the unleavened bread, that He told His Disciples to eat, symbolize His "Spiritual" body, and NOT His physical body, that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed?
                              > Would the wine, that He told His Disciples to drink, symbolize His "Spiritual" blood, and NOT His physical blood, the Blood of The New Covenant shed for many?
                              > How could ALL that be ONLY Spiritual, and ALL the physical aspects denied?
                              > What I see written in The Scrittures are BOTH Spiritual and physical aspects of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice. And I believe that NEITHER of them have to be denied.
                              > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
                              > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
                              > Carlo Tognoni
                              > BYT YHWH
                              > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
                              > www.byt-yhwh. org
                              > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ===
                              >    
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message ----
                              > From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael yehochanan@. ..
                              > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
                              > Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 10:39:44 PM
                              > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?
                              >
                              >
                              > Shalom to All Who Read This,For all who read this post, please read all of the verses and quotes. I apologize for the length of the post. But, this is not an easy subject to explain with a verse or two. I obviously do not have the wisdom to explain the most advanced things in a short parable like the Master. My explanations are based primarily on the written texts and not my own reasoning or interpretations. So, if they are read in detail, you will not understand my thoughts.
                              > In addition, all quotes are from the King James Bible for convenience. I personally consider the Hebrew Tanakh and the Aramaic Peshitta as my source texts. I am in no way endorsing this translation nor do I believe the names of the Creator and His son are Lord, God or Jesus. I just pasted the text from the online Bible text. My suggestion is that you read the verses in the version of your choice--preferably the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek texts.
                              >  
                              > Carlo said, There is no whatsoever doubt, and I fully Agree about Spiritual, Symbolic, Allegorical, Typical way of speaking ALSO used in reference to the Sacrifice of YHWSU (Yahshua), as you have well explained. But, as you know very well, ANY Spiritual Pattern has a correspondent physical pattern.
                              > This is absolutely correct. However, the point I am making in this thread is that spirit is separate from the corporeal. The spiritual pattern is completely spiritual and the corresponding spiritual pattern is the physical sacrificial rites of Israel--not the execution of physical body of Yehoshua. Also, the physical death/execution of the Messiah did not fulfill the requirements of being a Pesach/Passover or Yom Kippur sacrifice on the physical or spiritual level. We will show in this post that the complete atonement was all performed at the spiritual level. Allof the actions were done at the spiritual level. These are the only points I am making in this thread.
                              > The physical body of Yehoshua does not even come into the equation. The confusion is over the meaning of apparentlycorporeal terms like blood, death, body, and the like. So, when we read the verses that say that Yehoshua offered his body as a sacrifice, we interpret each words as being physical. Using physical definitions, we have no choice but to interpret Yehoshua as a physical sacrifice. What I will show in this post is that the physical correspondence is the literal rituals of the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifices while the spiritual correspondence is the very act of Yehoshua instituting the New Covenant in the heavenly/spiritual tabernacle.
                              > I will get into the body of this message shortly. But, first, I would like to review the exactly what the new covenant is. Jeremiah 31:31-34¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I
                              > will remember their sin no more..
                              > There are many other verses in the Tanakh that say the same thing--mostly in the books of Isaiah and Ezekiel. As we see, the real new covenant is instituted when Israel--and Gentiles who are yoked to the Covenant--have their minds purified and perfected, the Torah is put in their hearts, and their sins are forgiven.
                              > We also read about this perfect state in the New Testament--particul arly I John 3. I request that all who read this post review that short chapter. In that chapter, we read that true disciples of Yehoshua will attained a state of sinlessness and be given the title, Sons of God. We are taught in the Book of John by the Messiah that we will attained perfection (John 17:23). And when we check the Aramaic and Greek, they both says perfection/completi on. At this point, we will truly be brethren with the Messiah (Hebrews 2:11).
                              > It is taught in the churches that we cannot attain this state of perfection until the resurrection of the dead. However, Yehoshua taught that we can attain this state in this lifetime. This is the whole subject of I John 3. This is what is described in the Book of Hebrews (mainly) and throughout the New Testament as a whole. So, we learn that the sacrificial system is in reality as physical representation of the spiritual actions that occur when one is passed from death to life (John 5:24).
                              > Keep in mind, I said that the New Testament teaches that ministry of Yehoshua is what saved and atone, not his death on the cross. The Master himself said that he who hears (obeys) his word and believe in him has eternal life. It is not his death that atones but his teachings and ministry.John 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
                              > I checked the whole Tanakh and New Testament. There is not one verse that says that actual execution of the execution of physical body of the Son did anything. All that did is make Yehoshua the lord of the living and the death. The issue is never about atonement. Paul says this in the following verse.Rom 14:9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
                              > Now, I will show that allegorical statements in the Pauline writing and the Book of Hebrews merely details the realization of the new covenant (that being the transformation of the believers). We will see that the physical body of Yehoshua was not the sacrifice and has nothing to do with the animal sacrificial system at all.. In order to show that, all we need to do is look throughout the New Testament to get the correct definitions of the words. Then we can correctly understand the statements. I will focus on chapters 8 and 9 of the Book of Hebrews with references to the words of Paul.
                              > The context of chapters 8 and 9 in the book of Hebrews is the Yom Kippur offering. Some of the requirements performing the Yom Kippur sacrifice are:
                              > 1. A Temple/Tabernacle (with vessels and compartments such as the Holy of Holies)
                              > 2. A High Priest
                              > 3.. Two goats/lambs (Yehoshua is the sacrificial lamb and the Satan is the Azazel that is sent away).
                              > Keep in mind, the New Testament teaches that Yehoshua fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice once and for all. As I noted before, he did not fulfill this with his physical body because there was no physical tabernacle or temple. We cannot flip back and forth from physical to spiritual.. Either the whole thing was physical or the whole thing was spiritual. This is what Paul taught.1Corinthians 2:13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
                              > We humans want to make everything physical. We demand a physical God so we choose Jesus.. Similarly, we want a make the spiritual sacrifice of Yehoshua a physical event which it is not. As unbelievable at it may seem, the whole sacrifice for our sins was performed in the spiritual realm and has nothing to do with the physical. I will show examples of this in the scriptures later on in the post.
                              > We will see in the Book of Hebrews that it contrasts the physical and the spiritual aspect of Yom Kippur. The physical rites were done by regular humans and physical animals were killed in a physical tabernacle while Yehoshua did the spiritual rites with a spiritual temple, a spiritual sacrifice and the like. The Book of Hebrew goes to great detail to show that the sacrifice is physical in complete contrast to the physical sacrifice of ancient Israel.
                              > So, we will now show that New Testament teaches that everythingconcernin g the Yom Kippur observance and the Tabernacle/Temple is merely a physical representation of the spiritual reality. This everythinginclude the High Priest, the blood, death, sacrifice, vessels and the like are all spiritual. With this knowledge, we can read scriptures detailing the death of Yehoshua in the proper context--the spiritual context.  
                              > The Tabernacle(Spiritua l or Physical)
                              >  Hebrews 9:8-10The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
                              > As we see, the first tabernacle was physical. This is the same tabernacle that Moshe saw in his vision (Exodus 25:9). But the context of Hebrews 9 is that it is talking about a spiritual (non-physical) tabernacle. Physical sacrifices are done in the physical tabernacle. Spiritual sacrifices are done in a spiritual tabernacle. The physical body of Yehoshua is not in the spiritual tabernacle nor was his physical body sacrificed. The whole thing is spiritual. This theme is throughout the New Testament. The Tabernacle in which Yehoshua performed his sacrifice is Spiritual.Hebrews 9:23-24¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
                              > And no, a human sacrifice is not better than an animal sacrifice--not even the body of the Messiah. THE BLOOD(Spiritual or Physical)
                              > One verse that leads Christians to believe that the bloodthat made atonement for us was physical is the following.Hebrews 9:12-15Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it
                              > is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
                              > First notice that it says that he was offered without spot. The book is lying if is saying that his physical body was without spot. But, it is not talking about his physical body at all. It is his spiritual body that is the subject of this book. To imply this is speaking of the physical takes it out of context. Later, we will see that all the other words like blood and death are also spiritual.
                              > This section of the Book of Hebrew that I just posted above is talking about how Yehoshua institutes the TRUE NEW COVENANT. This must be done in the same pattern of the Torah with the different being that this is all on the spiritual level.
                              > Let us look in the Torah and see what happens with the blood. We will see that if Yehoshua performed the spiritual sacrifice of Yom Kippur once and for all, he must sprinkle the blood on the vessels and the people if the whole sacrifice is in accordance with the Law. Exodus 24:6-8And Moses took half of the blood, and put [it] in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
                              > We can see that the Book of Hebrews is a making a direct reference to the Torah to show that the

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                            • Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael
                              Shalom Carlo, You said, I am Very Glad that you have clarified that the ONLY ASPECT that you are correcting would be the implication that YHWSU (Yahshua) s
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 5, 2008
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                                Shalom Carlo,

                                You said, I am Very Glad that you have clarified that the ONLY ASPECT that you are correcting would be the implication that YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical death would be the spiritual sacrifice of the Passover and Atonements sacrificial lambs, confirming ALL the other physical aspects of His Life.

                                As I have said before, I do not deny any spiritual or physical aspect of the actions performed by the Messiah. The one reason I even bring up the issue is the that by limiting the sacrifice of the physicality, the spiritual actions are given secondary importance. So, not only am I not excluding the importance of his physical actions, I am including that spiritual actions that he performed in the spiritual temple.

                                In common teachings, the only things that is discussed is what happened on earth. In reality, the real work occurred on the spiritual level. This is where everything happens. Take a look at this verse.

                                Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

                                I can give many more verses that teach the same thing. For instance, if you read the Book of Revelation, we see that battles were fought in the past, and battles will be fought in the future in the spirit realm. Those things do not happen on planet Earth. So, my point is that the sacrifice of Yehoshua was made on that level as well.

                                And for some reason, you see to use the term spiritualize in a negative sense as if the spiritual actions are less important than the physical. In truth, it is the spiritual actions that are eternal and most important. This is why Yehoshua had to ascend to the spiritual temple to perform the sacrifice.

                                You said, But even in this way, you are still denying YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical sacrifice, saying that He would NOT fulfill the requirements of YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah), because His physical body was "bruised".

                                I finally see why you keep saying that I deny the physical sacrifice. This is because you are using the words in the general sense while I restrict that word only to how the Torah uses it. For instance, the Pesach is NOT a sacrifice (zevach--

                                xbz) or offering (qorban--Nbrq) according to the Torah. But, in general usage, a sacrifice can be anything that is ritually killed which is incorrect. It is fine if you use the term this way in English. But when I say that the physical suffering and death of Yehoshua is not a sacrifice, I mean ONLY that it does not fit into the category of being a qorban or zevach in the terminology of Torah.

                                Also, I believe that you interpret my statements that the physical suffering and death are not a sacrifice, then they are not important or required in the Plan of Salvation that YHWH decreed for believers. If you believe this is what I mean, then this is an incorrect assessment of my words.

                                I showed in my posts that the physical suffering of the Messiah corresponded to the goat for Azazel which

                                carries away the sins of Israel. It is the burnt offering/olah (the spiritual body of Yehoshua and the goat for YHWH) that makes atonement. But, burnt offerings do not bear or carry away sin, they only cover (make atonement/kipper) the sin. Sins are carried away once per year. So the Eternal Sacrifice of Yehoshua ended the need to carry away sins year after year. My only point is that is that it was his own spiritual body which ascended to spiritual temple (goat for YHWH) that was the olah and not the physical body (goat for Azazel).

                                John said, As I understand it, all sin offerings had the hands of the guilty party laid upon their heads. The act of laying on of hands (Lev.4:4,15,24,29,33) symbolizes the transference of sins from the guilty party to the innocent. The innocent then becomes the sin-bearer.

                                Not one offering in the Torah bares sin. They only cover (kipper) sin--that is--they make expiation/atonement for sin. Read the Torah regulations on the offerings again and you will see this is correct. And this is definitely the case for Pesach and Yom Kippur. If you check the Hebrew text, you will see that Pesach is never called an sacrifice or offering and it is never said to be a sin-bearer. The confusion over this comes from the foul translations. Here is on good of example of the KJV erroneously calling the Pesach a sacrifice.

                                1Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:

                                Many people read that in the translation of the New Testament and just assume that the Pesach is a sacrifice. This is incorrect. The Pesach is killed/slaughtered for us. This is literally what it says in the Hebrew text. Not coincidentally, the Greek words that the KJV translated as sacrifice is thuo which means to kill, slay or slaughter. That definition is the exact same the Hebrew word shachat which is used for the Pesach.

                                Exodus 12:21Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill (shachat) the passover.

                                When you read the account of the Pesach in the Torah. It is never once called a sacrifice (zevach) or offering (qorban).

                                 

                                And on Yom Kippur, there are two goats. The goat designated for YHWH is called an olah (sin offering) and make the atonement. The goat for Azazel--like the Pesach--is never called an sacrifice or offering and it is never said to be a sin-bearer even though it also make atonement for sin along with the goat for YHWH. This makes the rituals of those two Holy Days unique. The New Testament explicitly states that the sacrifice of Yehoshua corresponds to Yom Kippur and Pesach lamb/goat. So, it is crucial to review--in DETAIL--the rituals of Yom Kippur and Pesach in Hebrew and you will why I believe it is important to know what the offering of the spiritual body did and what the suffering and death of the physical body did. The spiritual body is what eternally atoned for the our souls and is called the sacrifice. The physical body bore and carried away our sins and atoned for ours sins along with the spiritual body.

                                So, I definitely have not spiritualized the physical sufferings and death of the Messiah. Sins are committed with the mind/heart and body. Both are corporeal and correspond to the goat for Azazel. Since they are committed on the level of physicality, the Messiah has to suffer on both the mental and bodily level. So, the importance of the physical body of Messiah is that it served to bare and carry away our sins and atoned along with the spiritual body even though it is not called a sacrifice. Without the physical suffering, he would not have fulfilled the aspect of the goat for Azazel and our sins would not have been carried away nor would they have been covered/atoned for. Yes, the physical suffering and death is crucial.

                                Then, of course, the spiritual body is the true self of the Messiah. We read in the New Testament that YHWH is spirit. If the Messiah existed in the Thought of the Creator from the beginning, then his original state is spiritual--not physical. This is his true self. And it is his true self--spirit body--that was sacrificed in the spiritual temple. So, when the Bible says that he gave up the ghost --literally surrendered his spirit in the Greek and Aramaic texts--his spirit separated from the physical body. At this point, the physical body died and he ascended to the spiritual temple. It is not the cross/stake that killed him. Of his own free will, he departed his body and ascended to the spiritual temple, thereby, leaving his physical shell lifeless. So, the Book of Hebrews picks up from this point and describes what he did in the spiritual temple. When he completed the work in the spiritual temple, he reunited with the physical body, resurrected, and reappeared to his beloved ones. So, you can see, I have not ignored even one aspect of the physical or spiritual actions of the Messiah. And I am able to tie every action back to the Torah.

                                This should be sufficient to prove what I am saying. But, it will prove nothing if you just read my words and instantly reply. Look at the verses I provided in order to define the words and then reread the Holy Days of Pesach and Yom Kippur. You will see that everything is in its proper place. And you can also see that I search diligently in the original texts and paid careful attention to context.

                                The importance of this issue is that those who discredit the New Testament use the belief that Yehoshua is a sacrifice to prove it contradicts Torah given that human sacrifice is forbidden. No…the New Testament says that he was slaughtered and that he bore our sins which is all in line with Torah. I can easily prove that a human can bare (not atone) for the sins of another with the Tanakh. So, they are correct in saying that the physical body of Messiah (that being the human being) cannot be a sacrifice for sin but they are incorrect in saying that he cannot bare our sins.

                                There are examples of this in the Tanakh. The prophet Ezekiel bore the sins of Israel (Ezekiel 4:1-5). Ironically, this is the SAME chapter the scoffers use to say that one man cannot atone for the sins of another (Ezekiel 18). But, again, this same chapter does say that a man can bare the sins of another. Bearing sin and atoning are two different concepts in the Tanakh. This is obvious in Hebrew but not so in the translations. And when you read the accounts of the sufferings of the Messiah, it ALWAYS SAYS that he bore our sins with his physical body. This is why I differentiate what he did with his physical body and what he did with the spiritual body. I did not provide this explanation before because I believe you guys already knew this. I only show this to unbelievers of the New Testament and there is never a rebuttal. It says explicitly that one can bare the sins of another in the Hebrew text. So, all I have to do show them that Yehoshua offered his sacrifice in his spirit realm in accordance with Torah and that the physical suffering in his body served to carry away (bear) our sins.

                                Carlo said, For me, instead, the bruising of His physical body, with wounds and stripes, were part of His physical sacrifice, which ultimate stage was the impalement, with a violent and painful physical death.

                                As I have shown above and in previous posts, the Tanakh nor the New Testament ever says that his suffering was a sacrifice in the original texts--in the Aramaic or Greek. And you will see throughout my posts that I check both the Aramaic and Greek for everything. It is only the Christian translations that call the Passover a sacrifice. The term the Bible uses for the physical suffering of the Messiah is ALWAYS bare (nassa--

                                )#n), which is the terms used for Ezekiel, in Isaiah 53, and even every instance in the New Testament.

                                Isaiah 53:4Surely he hath borne (nassa--)#n) our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

                                Ezekiel 4:4Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: [according] to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear (nassa--)#n) their iniquity.

                                1Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

                                In Greek, this is anaphero (

                                 which means to carry/bare--the same as nissa in Hebrew. You will notice that phero is where we get words like transfer. And since you speak Italian, I am sure you know the phero means carry in your mother language. In the Aramaic Peshitta, the word there is shaqel (lq#) which means to carry away. This is deep because the goat to Azazel bore (nassa) our sins and carried them away when it was sent away into the wilderness. Over and over again in the Tanakh and New Testament, we see that the physical suffering is always associated with baring iniquities which ties the physical suffering (and physical body) to the goat for Azazel.

                                Another thing…Yehoshua never said identified his physical body and suffering with himself. When he referring to his body being in dead three days and suffering, he always used the third person. For example, he never says

                                I will suffer or I will be dead three days. Let's look at some examples.

                                Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man (literally human being--ben adam) be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

                                John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

                                Luke 17:22-26 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it]. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them]. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

                                I have search all throughout the New Testament and found the same pattern. He always refers to his physical body and the things that happen to it in the third person--HE. Yet, when he makes reference to his actions, he always speaks in the first person--I. This is no coincidence or poetical speech. The Messiah is a spirit being like his Father because he proceeded and came forth from the Father. He only manifest as flesh an blood for our sake. Only spirit comes directly from the Father. After he came forth from the Father, THEN we was unclothed in flesh. So, to offer himself cannot mean his physical body. It must mean is essential self--the spiritual body--that was with the Thought of the Father from the beginning.

                                I have completed my explanation but I will respond further some more of your comments.

                                Carlo said, Very interestingly it is the reference that NONE of His bones was broken, just as it was the requirement for the Passover lamb, fulfilling also the Scriptural Prophecy for The MashiYah (MessiYah) (Yahchanan / John 19:33-36; Exodus 12:46; Numbers 9:12; Psalm 34:20).

                                No…having unbroken bones is only ONE requirement. What about the rest of the physical requirements of the Pesach? Can you show me all the rest of the physical requirements of the Pesach lamb that the Messiah fulfilled? When you get to the part about the lamb being without blemish or spot, you will see that he fails the physical requirements which he could only fulfill the attributes of the Pesach spiritually. He was spiritually without spot or blemish but he was covered with physical blemishes. Fulfilling ONE or TWO requirements proves nothing. When it comes to Torah, it is all or nothing.

                                Carlo also said, And, just as John Cordaro well explained, "soul" (Hebrew "nephesh") means "life", "living person", "body+breath of life" (also the animals are "souls", "nephesh", living creatures), and NOT

                                spirit (that is Hebrew "ruwach") or "spiritual person", or something of "spiritual" in us, as the FALSE idea and doctrine of the "immortal soul". So that IsaYah 53:10 was referring to "soul" as "life", "living person", "body+breath of life" of YHWSU (Yahshua), Who physically Died, as an Offering for sin, including also bruising Him, and then He was Resurrected to Spiritual Eternal Life.

                                This is incorrect definition of nefesh which is cause by you trying to mix English with Hebrew. Nefesh has many uses including blood. It certainly does not mean human being. The context determines how we interpret the word. Same goes for the term ruwach which can mean air. Again, context. Human being in Hebrew is adam, not nefesh. A general definition of nefesh is life force though we cannot be exact in English. For instance, let us look at a verse with this word.

                                Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life (nefesh) thereof, [which is] the blood (dam) thereof, shall ye not eat.

                                Lev 17:14 For [it is] the life (nefesh) of all flesh; the blood of it [is] for the life (nefesh) thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life (nefesh) of all flesh [is] the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

                                I can go on and on. As you can see, John's definition that he got from the Christians does not work. The definition living person will not work in those verses.

                                The context of nefesh is always living force when used by itself as it is in Isaiah 53. In all the examples above, it is used by itself which is why life or life force will work. Only when it is coupled with chayah does it refer to a physical body (human or animal) like in Genesis 2. I read the Bible in Hebrew and I see this all the time. You cannot just look up nefesh in a Christian Bible dictionary and think you know what it means. You must read the Bible in Hebrew and then words like that have obvious meanings. As I said above, the definitions of nefesh varies depending on whether the word is by itself or if it is coupled with another word like chayah. In every case where you see a term like living soul, rest assured it is nefesh ha'chayah or something similar.

                                Speaking of Isaiah 53:10...let us take a closer look at it. It is always mistranslated. The part that says in the KJV, when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin is completely wrong. In the Hebrew text, it is

                                w:#pn M#) Myv#t-Ma) which is literally--if (Ma)) impart/place/put (Myv#t)) sin/trespass (M#)) his soul (w:#pn). It is telling us that sins/trespass is placed upon his soul--not his physical body. Again, associating him with baring sin, not being a sacrifice. In Hebrew, Isaiah 53 does not match up with the description of the Yom Kippur sacrificial goat or the Pesach lamb. The same words are not used. However, the same words are use in Isaiah 53 as are used for the goat for Azazel.

                                You said, Also you have mixed the two goats offered on the Day of Atonements. Actually YHWH (Yahweh)'s goat was physically sacrificed, killed, just as YHWSU (Yahshua) was physically sacrificed, killed, while on Azazel's goat (the scapegoat) all the sins were Spiritually put, just as YHWSU (Yahshua) Spiritually bore/bears, and atoned/atones all the sins of the world.

                                I did not mix them up. I said the same thing. I said the spiritual body--his true self--was the offering. The physical body it what carried the sins. As I showed above directly from the Torah, the sacrificial lamb on Yom Kippur did not bare/carry the sins. The goat for Azazel carries the sins away (Lev 16:21). The goat for YHWH is called the Olah/Offering and does atonement. The goat for Azazel bares the sins and is sent away.

                                And another thing about the goat for Azazel. We read that the goat for Azazel is sent away alive. So, how is it that Yehoshua is killed? Easy, it is because the Israelites sent him away alive and he was not killed by any Israelite. So, if the goat for Azazel is sent away alive in accordance with Torah and is subsequently killed by an foreigner, the Torah is still upheld. This is why the Jews would not kill him themselves. But, because Israel cannot kill the Azazel, they gave him to the heathen to do it.

                                Lastly, Carlo said, So, in summary, for me, YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice was BOTH physical AND Spiritual, COMPLETELY fulfilling Passover and Atonements requirements, BOTH physically and Spiritually.

                                I am very interested to see you demonstrated verse-by-verse how the physical events of the physical suffering, death and resurrections is directly inline with the physical requirements of Pesach and Yom Kippur. This means I need to see the physical temple, see that the lamb/goat fits all the physical requirements, and all the physical actions like the sprinkling of the blood on the door (Pesach) or on the temple, vessels and people (Yom Kippur). We know he fulfilled them both on the spiritual level. I have done a line for line verification on this. I am unable to see any connection in the physical. So, if you can prove it on the physical level, I would like to see it. And keep in mind, fulfilling one or two things does not cut it. It must fulfill every jot and tittle of physical Torah requirements.

                                That is all for now,

                                Yehochanan

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                 


                                --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com, BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Shalom Yehochanan!
                                >  
                                > I am Very Glad that you have clarified that the ONLY ASPECT thet you are correcting would be the implication that YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical death would be the spiritual sacrifice of the Passover and Atonements sacrificial lambs, confirming ALL the other physical aspects of His Life.
                                >  
                                > But even in this way, you are still denying YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical sacrifice, saying that He would NOT fullfil the requirements of YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah), because His physical body was "bruised".
                                >  
                                > For me, instead, the bruising of His physical body, with wounds and stripes, were part of His physical sacrifice, which ultimate stage was the impalement, with a violente and painful physical death.
                                >  
                                > Very interestingly it is the reference that NONE of His bones was broken, just as it was the requirement for the Passover lamb, fulfilling also the Scriptural Prophecy for The MashiYah (MessiYah) (Yahchanan / John 19:33-36; Exodus 12:46; Numbers 9:12; Psalm 34:20).
                                >  
                                > And, just as John Cordaro well explained, "soul" (Hebrew "nephesh") means "life", "living person", "body+breath of life" (also the animals are "souls", "nephesh", living creatures), and NOT spirit (that is Hebrew "ruwach") or "spiritual person", or something of "spiritual" in us, as the FALSE idea and doctrine of the "immortal soul".
                                >  
                                > So that IsaYah 53:10 was referring to "soul" as "life", "living person", "body+breath of life" of YHWSU (Yahshua), Who physically Died, as an Offering for sin, including also bruising Him, and then He was Resurrected to Spiritual Eternal Life.
                                >  
                                > IsaYah 53:10 -
                                >  10 Yet it pleased YHWH (Yahweh) to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief: when You shall make His soul an Offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the Pleasure of YHWH (Yahweh) shall prosper in His hand.
                                >  
                                > Please, read my post in which I have quoted ISAYAH CHAPTER 53 with all the references and fulfillments of that Scriptural Prophecy in YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Life.
                                >
                                > Also you have mixed the two goats offered on the Day of Atonements. Actually YHWH (Yahweh)'s goat was physically sacrificed, killed, just as YHWSU (Yahshua) was physically sacrificed, killed, while on Azazel's goat (the scapegoat) all the sins were Spiritually put, just as YHWSU (Yahshua) Spiritually bore/bears, and atoned/atones all the sins of the world.
                                >  
                                > About the symbols of unleavened bread and wine, they clearly are the Memorial of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical Death, and NOT of His "Spiritual" Death (???), of course.
                                >  
                                > 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 -
                                >  23 For I have received of the Master that which also I delivered unto you, That the Master YHWSU (Yahshua) the same night in which He was betrayed took bread:
                                >  24 And when He had given thanks, He brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is My Body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of Me.
                                >  25 After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, saying, This cup is the New Yestament in My blood: this do you, as oft as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.
                                >  26 For as often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you do shew the Master's Death till He come.
                                >  
                                > Would His Disciples remember His SPIRITUAL Death (???), or His PHYSICAL Death?
                                >  
                                > It is extremely obvious that YHWSU (Yahshua) Died PHYSICALLY, and NOT SPIRITUALLY, and He Lives SPIRITUALLY Forever! Or do you believe that He DIED SPIRITUALLY???
                                >  
                                > You have quoted Yahchanan (John) 6:50-52, trying to explain that the bread to eat at YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Memorial, would be symbolic of the "Spiritual" bread, which comes down from Heaven.
                                >  
                                > Please continue to read, to see what really was the Bread that came down from Heaven...
                                >  
                                > Yahchanan (John) 6:50-58 -
                                >  50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
                                >  51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the Bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
                                >  52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us His flesh to eat?
                                >  53 Then YHWSU (Yahshua) said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
                                >  54 Whoso eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has Eternal Life; and I will raise him up at the Last Day.
                                >  55 For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
                                >  56 He that eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him.
                                >  57 As The Living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eats Me, even he shall live by Me.
                                >  58 This is that bread which came down from Heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live for ever.
                                >  
                                > The Bread that came down from Heaven was HIS FLESH!
                                > Was YHWSU (Yahshua) saying to physically eat His physical flesh, and to physically drink His physical blood, to have Eternal Life, to live forever?
                                > Of course NOT, because that would be absolutely contrary to YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah).
                                >  
                                > Was YHWSU (Yahshua) saying to physically eat bread, symbolizing His "Spiritual" flesh, and to physically drink wine, symbolizing His "Spiritual" blood, to have Eternal Life, to life forever?
                                > Of course NOT, because flesh and blood canNOT inherit The Reign of YHWH (Yahweh) (1 Corinthians 15:50), so that there is NO KIND of flesh and blood in YHWH (Yahweh)'s Reign, including, of course, "Spiritual" flesh and blood.
                                >  
                                > YHWH (Yahweh) is Spirit a Spirit (Yahchanan / John 4:24), and NOT "Spiritual" flesh and blood, and the SAME is YHWSU (Yahshua) NOW!
                                >  
                                > Was YHWSU (Yahshua) saying to physically eat bread, symbolizing to Spiritually eat His physical flesh given for the life of the world (that is, the Bread that came down from Heaven - See Yahchanan / John 6:51), and to physically drink wine, symbolizing to Spiritually drink His physical blood shed for our sins, to have Eternal Life, to life forever? YES, I believe so!
                                >  
                                > Otherwise, please, show me, in The Scriptures, WHERE and HOW would YHWSU (Yahshua) have given His "Spiritual" flesh, and have shed His "Spiritual" blood???
                                >  
                                > And, please, do NOT tell me that to eat His "Spiritual" flesh, and to drink His "Spiritual" blood would be to follow His Perfect Example, in Keeping YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah), since all the Fathers from the righteous Abel, and then the Children of Israel ALREADY had YHWH (Yahweh)'s PERFECT Law (Torah) to Follow, LONG before the Coming of YHWSU (Yahshua).
                                >  
                                > So, in summary, for me, YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice was BOTH physical AND Spiritual, COMPLETELY fulfilling Passover and Atonements requirements, BOTH physically and Spiritually.
                                >  
                                > Of course, He did NOT Die "Spiritually" - He Died physically, and He Lives Spiritually Forever!
                                >  
                                > His physical Death and Sacrifice (symbolized from the unleavened bread and wine that we take in His Memorial), just as YHWH (Yahweh)'s Passover and Atonements lambs, covers, atones, takes away our sins, and His Spiritual Life in us, through The Set Apart Spirit, empowers us to Keep YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law, Writing Them on our minds and hearts, following His Perfect Example, to become Perfect just as our Heavenly Father, YHWH (Yahweh) is PERFECT (Mattithyah / Matthew 5:43-48)!
                                >  
                                > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
                                >  
                                > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
                                >  
                                > Carlo Tognoni
                                >  
                                > BYT YHWH
                                > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
                                > www.byt-yhwh.org
                                >  
                                > =====================================================================
                                >  
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message ----
                                > From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael yehochanan@...
                                > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 4:03:20 PM
                                > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?
                                >
                                >
                                > Romans 14:9For to this end (purpose)
                                > The Messiah was had to died suffer and died physically and then resurrect in order to enter to spiritual tabernacle to perform the Eternal Sacrifice. So, the reason he said that Peter could not follow is because flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. So, the issue is not there is performed the Eternal Sacrifice or not. My point is that it did not occur at Calvary. It occurred in the Heavenly Tabernacle just as the Book of Hebrews says it did. This is why he told Peter that he could not go where he was about to go.Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. John 13:36Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
                                > You said, Let me ask you how would you "Spiritualize" YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Command, at the Passover time, for the Memorial of His Death?
                                > This is correct. It is an abomination to eat physical human flesh. You know that it says this in the Torah. So YOU KNOW that he was not talking about eating his physical flesh or body. I do not know why you asked me that. I will show that the body that we wanted his followers to focus on was not his physical body. The body that is the focus is the spiritual body which is HIS WORD.
                                > Let us take another look at this verse that you are referring to.
                                > Would the unleavened bread, that He told His Disciples to eat, symbolize
                                > His "Spiritual" body, and NOT His physical body, that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed? Mat 26:26-29¶ And as they were eating, Jesus
                                > Yehoshua stated that THE BREAD is his body. He had already taught them that that he is the Bread of God (John 6:33) and the Bread of Life (John 6:35). He taught that this he who eat he that comes to him shall never hunger and he that believeth on him shall never thirst (John 6:35). Let look at the whole verse to get the symbolism.took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, ye all of it; For this is Drinkmy bloodof the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.John 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
                                > His word is the bread!
                                > For emphasis, this is another verse that show the difference between his physical body (bread) and spiritual body (spiritual bread/the Word of YHWH).He is the Word and he is the Bread and he is the Life and he is the Light. All of these terms are and more are synonymous in the New Testament. It is HIS WORD that gives eternal life. This is what we just read in the previous verse. He never said that his physical body gave eternal life. The bread he is talking about is the spiritual bread, the Word of YHWH. He is not talking about his physical body which is made of earth and is not from Heaven. It is his spiritual body (self) that came from Heaven and YHWH. This is the body he is talking about. John 6:50-51This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down
                                >  
                                > We know that the bread he spoke of was his body. We also know that he has a spiritual body. So, the question is this. What body came down from heaven? His physical body or his spiritual body?
                                > What bread will give eternal life? Will eating his physical flesh give eternal life or will obey his word and believing in the Father give eternal life. If you check the scriptures, the way to eternal life is obeying the word of Messiah and having complete devotion to YHWH. When we search the scriptures-- Tanakh and New Testament--we see that salvation and eternal life is ALWAYS associated with obedience to YHWH and his Torah.. from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.John 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth (obeys) my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Mat 19:16-17¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good?
                                > [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
                                > This is the hint at symbolic meaning of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. It has nothing to do with a physical ritual or symbolizing the eating of his physical flesh. This means we have his the Torah (Word, Bread, Flesh) in our hearts/minds and we live according to the Word of the Father by means of His Son.
                                > The next verse is the biggest proof that he is differentiating between physical bread and spiritual bread. John 6:55-58For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by meThis is that bread : not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
                                > In Hebraic thought, bread symbolized wisdom. There are two types of bread. Bread from heaven and bread from earth. Yehoshua is speaking of the bread from heaven--spiritual bread--not the bread that we can touch.
                                > You asked, Would the wine, that He told His Disciples to drink, symbolize His "Spiritual" blood, and NOT His physical blood, the Blood of The New Covenant shed for many?
                                > Yes. The same thing can be shown with the drink. This next verse will give the context of both the bread and the drink. This next verse will show that both the bread and the drink he was talking about was spiritual.. which came down from heavenMatthew 26:27-29And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new
                                > We know that the bread and drink he is talking about is spiritual because he told his disciples that they will drink it with him in His Father's kingdom. The Father's kingdom is not physical. It is spiritual bread and spiritual drink that is in the kingdom of heaven, not physical bread and drink.
                                > Now, it this is not proven to you yet. I will not directly show that the New Testament spiritualizes everything including bread and drink. It is this spiritual bread and drink that Yehoshua is talking about. So, it is not me who spiritualizes everything the New Testament does this. Without further day, read this verse.with youin my Father's kingdom.1Corinthians 10:2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
                                > Again, his physical body is not from heaven. Only his spiritual body is. His physical body is clearly said the be earthly from the physical seed of David. Romans 1:3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
                                > The bread/body that Yehoshua is talking is about is from heaven. Two different bodies. So, to answer you question--NO- -Yehoshua is not talking about the body that was that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed. That was his physical body which is from physical matter, not from heaven. His spiritual body is directly from YHWH as you proved in detail when you showed that Yehoshua did not pre-exist.
                                > My last email was too long to show the EVERY DETAIL of the sacrificial system is spiritualized in the New Testament. So, often time, when we see a word that we think I physical, the New Testament gives the REAL meaning which is spiritual. So, again, Yehoshua is talking about the spiritual bread and drink, not physical.
                                > You asked, How could ALL that be ONLY Spiritual, and ALL the physical aspects denied?
                                > I do not deny any physical aspects. He had to teach physically. He had to demonstrate physically complete obedience, love and devotion to YHWH in the flesh as an perfect example for us. Let us look at a good verse that will clarify this more.Hebrews 5:6-9As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect,he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;We just read above that we only attained eternal life by obeying (hearing) his word and believing in the Father. So, by him suffering physically, this gives his followers the faith that we can obey to the point of death as well. Complete obedience and
                                > faith in YHWH is required for His Grace and Salvation. And the Scriptures tell us that he will not make us endure more than we can bear. This is why is says the following.1John 3:6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
                                > So, I look to the Scriptures to tell me the reason for his physical suffering and death. It literally tells us. There is no need to interpret. He suffered to give us an example the perfect obedience. And he died so that he could be lord over the living and the dead. Again, nowhere does it say his physical death at Calvary fulfilled Pesach or Yom Kippur. This what done in the spiritual tabernacles which I showed in the two previous posts.
                                > Lastly, you said, What I see written in The Scriptures are BOTH Spiritual and physical aspects of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice. And I believe that NEITHER of them have to be denied.
                                > Neither do I. However, as I said many times, there is not one place in the Bible that says that his execution at Calvary fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur offering. This was done in the spiritual temple.
                                >
                                > You are incorrect to say that the physical abuses, humiliation and torment he suffered are called sacrifices in the Bible. It does not say this even once in the Tanakh or New Testament. I literally read every verse in the Tanakh and New Testament detailing the suffering of the Messiah. No once are his sufferings called a sacrifice, atonement or propitiation. Since you called them sacrifices, you naturally assume that I disregard the important of the Messiah suffering and dying physically. I do not. Rather, the Scriptures says the ONLY SACRIFICE was his soul (spiritual body), not his physical body (Isaiah 53:10).
                                > The Bible DOES tell us the reason for his suffering and death. I already documented in this and a previous post, the reason for his death (which was not atonement). Apostle Peter tells us the reason that he suffered.Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.1Peter 2:21-25For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray;
                                > but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.NOW, I WILL EXPLAIN THE REAL MEANING OF THE PHYSICAL SUFFERING OF YEHOSHUA!!
                                > It is unfortunate because with this explanation, I do not even need the words that I said above. Since I spent two hours typing so, I will leave them there for you to read. But, this explanation with explained the meaning of the spiritual sacrifice of Yehoshua and the reason for his physical suffering. I actually should make this post next part of the post a separate post. But, if you are like me, you will read the first one and respond to it when I think that the remained of the post will answer all questions you have. So, consider this post a rough draft of a article I will write in the future on this subject.
                                > Recall, I said that the physical body of Yehoshua was never called a sacrifice. Rather, it was his spiritual body. I also said that Yehoshua fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice at the spiritual level and not the physical. In truth, the true sacrifice that made atonement for our sins was his spiritual body. However, his physical body was the scapegoat/Azazel that bared our sins. BOTH GOATS made atonement. The physical body is not a Sacrifice even though it also was required for atonement. We will learn that this in true in the Torah.
                                > Keep in mind…the New Testament says that the Messiah died for our sins, was buried, and resurrected according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Therefore, to understand this properly, we must go to the only Scriptures that Paul could have been talking about at that time--the Tanakh. Also remember we are talking about Yehoshua fulfilling the Yom Kippur sacrifice. We know that the purpose of the Yom Kippur rituals was to make atonement for all Israel (every year). Yehoshua accomplished this once and for all. So, all we need to do is go to Leviticus 16, read the whole chapter, and then look in the New Testament to see where everything matches up. Due to the length, I request you open you Bible up to Leviticus 16 since it would be too long to cut and paste to this post. Then I can just refer individual verses.
                                > The reason we interpret the physical suffering and death of Yehoshua with the Yom Kippur sacrifice because we assume that it is the sacrificial lamb that bears our sins. This is incorrect. Before I continue on, let us look to the verse that is the source of the confusion. leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Peter 2:24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body ,
                                > This is a direct reference to Isaiah 53 which says the same thing about the Messiah--that being--his physical flesh bared our sins. And we know that we are talking about the physical flesh because the spiritual body did not hang on the tree/cross/stake. We will now inspect Leviticus 16 and see that it is not the sacrificial lamb that bares the sin, it is the scapegoat/azazel (which is not called a sacrifice) that bears the sin.
                                > First of all, to fulfill the Yom Kippur sacrifice, we need TWO GOATS, not one. One goat is the sacrifice for sin, the other is not a sacrifice. on the treethat we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.Lev 16:7-10And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat (Azazel). And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him [for] a sin offering. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness..
                                > I have gone into great detail to show that the spiritual body of Yehoshua was the sacrifice. But what of the Azazel/scapegoat? It is the scapegoat (physical body) that bears and carries away our sins, not the sacrificial lamb (spiritual body).Lev 16:20-22¶ And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat (scapegoat/Azazel): And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat : and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
                                > We see there that it is the scapegoat that bears the iniquity, not the sacrificial lamb. We know that Yehoshua is the sacrificial lamb and we know that he is bore our sins. But, it is Yehoshua as the scapegoat that bore out sins, not as the sacrificial lamb. Also note that the scapegoat never enters the Tabernacle. This supports what I said that the spiritual body (sacrificial lamb) entered the (spiritual) tabernacle and was sacrifices while the physical body (scapegoat) did not. The physical body was considered accurse (for us), placed in a tomb and resurrected. The spiritual body is what entered the Heavenly Temple.
                                > Now, read Galatians 3:13.upon the head of the goat, shall bear upon him all their iniquitiesunto a land not inhabitedGalatians 3:13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
                                > Again, notice that it mentions him being on a tree (like in the Peter reference above) to make sure we do not confuse the physical body with the spiritual. It is the scapegoat (physical body) that was made a curse for us, not his spiritual body (the sacrificial lamb) which is holy.
                                > I believe I have made my point so far, but I have one more thing to add. Recall, I said everything involving the Yom Kippur service is in the New Testament. Well, what does it means that the scapegoat (physical body of Yehoshua) was sent into a land not inhabited in the wilderness?Lev 16:22And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
                                > This is explained in the Book of Acts. This is the physical death that Yehoshua experienced. Yes, as I said, I do not exclude the importance of the physical aspect of the sacrifice. It is also crucial. Acts 2:24-32Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had
                                > sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
                                > This is speaking of the period of time that Yehoshua spent in a state of separation from holiness. However, this is what he cried out to the Father to deliver him from. It is funny how people think that when he asked the cup to be removed from him because he was afraid of death. The truth is that he did not ever want to be in a state of uncleanness and impurity. However, the Father raised him up to take his rightful place as King of Israel. Hence he is truly the physical king of Israel and at the same time, the High Priest in the spiritual temple.
                                > But we also must remember that the scapegoat must be alive. I believe that his physical body remained alive in order to fulfill Torah. This is why it says that even though his body was in the grave, it did not see corruption. In the case of Yehoshua, it says (in the Aramaic) that he surrendered his spirit (John 19:30). In the Greek texts (and I checked several different ones), it says he gave his spirit into the hands of another. And when we read of instances of persons dying in the Hebrew Tanakh, it always used the word muth--and he died. The things happens in the New Testament. Yet, in this case, you do not see the word he died. His death was spiritual because he was in a state of separation from holiness. And to prove that his body remained in tact, he allowed Thomas to touch him. This had to happen in order to full the Torah requirement of the scapegoat remaining alive. And, as I showed in a previous post, the concept of spiritual death does exist.
                                > There is no mention of death regardless of how it reads in the European languages which are usually translated to support their doctrine. Again, in the original languages. It does not say he died. If you look at all the instances of people dying in the New Testament, you can look at the original language to see how they describe it. Yet, when he was on the stake, it does not say he died. So can do you own research on that issue. But, for me, I believe Yehoshua died according to the Scriptures. And according to the Scriptures, it is the spiritual body (the sacrificial lamb) that dies, not the physical one which is intend to be the scapegoat and keep alive.
                                >  
                                > Now, I will summary my points.
                                > The technicality that I bring up in this thread is that physical body of Yehoshua is cannot represent the sacrificial lamb of Yom Kippur. I believe that the Bible says that his spiritual body (true self) represents the sacrificial lamb while his physical body is the scapegoat that bore our sins and made atonement with the sacrificial body. I also believe that both goats made atonement on Yom Kippur so both the spiritual and physical bodies of Yehoshua made atonement. It is his spiritual body that is the High Priest in the heavenly tabernacle while the physical body will return as the eternal David--King of Israel--in the flesh.
                                > The reason this subject is important to me is that the belief that the physical body of Yehoshua being a sacrifice is a prime reason many people discredit the New Testament and believe it contradicts Torah. The bottom line that is has not been address is that human sacrifice is forbidden. So, my reasoning for starting this thread is to show that the sacrifice of Yehoshua is in perfect accordance with the literal and spiritual understanding of Torah. I am literally able to correspond every detail of the Yom Kippur sacrifice to the event of the New Testament on both the corporeal and spiritual level.. Therefore, the issue is not whether or not Yehoshua died for our sins. The point I am making is that this atonement was made in the heavenly tabernacle and not at Calvary.
                                > I have saved my posts and I will make an article of it. But before I do, I look forward to more of your rebuttals. I consider you (Carlo) and John to be students of Torah, believers in YHWH and disciples of Yehoshua. So, if it can stand up to your rebuttals, then I will write the article. If not, I will trash this belief and give praise to Yah for opening my eyes.
                                > Shalom,
                                > Yehochananneither his flesh did see corruption.
                                > --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, BYT YHWH bytyhwh@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Shalom Yehochanan!
                                > > Thank you very much again for your message, and your time spent in studying this Important Issue.
                                > > Without going into Scriptural details, that, YHWH (Yahweh) Willing, I reserve to do later, because it would take a longer Scriptural Study, now I would like to kindly tell you that seems that you are doing the same mistake, on the "Spiritual" side, that you said Christians do on the "physical" side of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice.
                                > > It seems that you are "Spiritualizing" EVERY aspect of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice, as if He did NOT have to live a physical life as a human being, as if He did NOT have to overcome His human flesh, as if He did NOT have to suffer and die physically.
                                > > Let me ask you how would you "Spiritualize" YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Command, at the Passover time, for the Memorial of His Death?
                                > > Would the unleavened bread, that He told His Disciples to eat, symbolize His "Spiritual" body, and NOT His physical body, that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed?
                                > > Would the wine, that He told His Disciples to drink, symbolize His "Spiritual" blood, and NOT His physical blood, the Blood of The New Covenant shed for many?
                                > > How could ALL that be ONLY Spiritual, and ALL the physical aspects denied?
                                > > What I see written in The Scrittures are BOTH Spiritual and physical aspects of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice.. And I believe that NEITHER of them have to be denied.
                                > > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
                                > > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
                                > > Carlo Tognoni
                                > > BYT YHWH
                                > > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
                                > > www.byt-yhwh. org
                                > > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ===
                                > >    
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message ----
                                > > From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael yehochanan@ ..
                                > > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
                                > > Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 10:39:44 PM
                                > > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Shalom to All Who Read This,For all who read this post, please read all of the verses and quotes. I apologize for the length of the post. But, this is not an easy subject to explain with a verse or two. I obviously do not have the wisdom to explain the most advanced things in a short parable like the Master. My explanations are based primarily on the written texts and not my own reasoning or interpretations. So, if they are read in detail, you will not understand my thoughts.
                                > > In addition, all quotes are from the King James Bible for convenience. I personally consider the Hebrew Tanakh and the Aramaic Peshitta as my source texts. I am in no way endorsing this translation nor do I believe the names of the Creator and His son are Lord, God or Jesus. I just pasted the text from the online Bible text. My suggestion is that you read the verses in the version of your choice--preferably the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek texts.
                                > >  
                                > > Carlo said, There is no whatsoever doubt, and I fully Agree about Spiritual, Symbolic, Allegorical, Typical way of speaking ALSO used in reference to the Sacrifice of YHWSU (Yahshua), as you have well explained. But, as you know very well, ANY Spiritual Pattern has a correspondent physical pattern.
                                > > This is absolutely correct. However, the point I am making in this thread is that spirit is separate from the corporeal. The spiritual pattern is completely spiritual and the corresponding spiritual pattern is the physical sacrificial rites of Israel--not the execution of physical body of Yehoshua. Also, the physical death/execution of the Messiah did not fulfill the requirements of being a Pesach/Passover or Yom Kippur sacrifice on the physical or spiritual level. We will show in this post that the complete atonement was all performed at the spiritual level. Allof the actions were done at the spiritual level. These are the only points I am making in this thread..
                                > > The physical body of Yehoshua does not even come into the equation. The confusion is over the meaning of apparentlycorporeal terms like blood, death, body, and the like. So, when we read the verses that say that Yehoshua offered his body as a sacrifice, we interpret each words as being physical. Using physical definitions, we have no choice but to interpret Yehoshua as a physical sacrifice. What I will show in this post is that the physical correspondence is the literal rituals of the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifices while the spiritual correspondence is the very act of Yehoshua instituting the New Covenant in the heavenly/spiritual tabernacle.
                                > > I will get into the body of this message shortly. But, first, I would like to review the exactly what the new covenant is. Jeremiah 31:31-34¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant tha

                                (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                              • BYT YHWH
                                Shalom Yehochanan! You said,I finally see why you keep saying that I deny the physical sacrifice. This is because you are using the words in the general sense
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 5, 2008
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                                  Shalom Yehochanan!
                                   
                                  You said, I finally see why you keep saying that I deny the physical sacrifice. This is because you are using the words in the general sense while I restrict that word only to how the Torah uses it. For instance, the Pesach is NOT a sacrifice (zevach--xbz) or offering (qorban--Nbrq) according to the Torah. But, in general usage, a sacrifice can be anything that is ritually killed which is incorrect. It is fine if you use the term this way in English. But when I say that the physical suffering and death of Yehoshua is not a sacrifice, I mean ONLY that it does not fit into the category of being a qorban or zevach in the terminology of Torah.
                                   
                                  It is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE that The Passover is NOT a sacrifice (zebach), as you have erroneously claimed, since, in YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah), we clearly read:
                                   
                                  Exodus 12:27 (Interlinear English-Hebrew) -
                                   27 That you shall say <'amar>, It is the sacrifice <zebach> of YHWH (Yahweh)'s Passover <pecach>, who passed <pacach> over the houses <bayith> of the children <ben> of Israel <Yisra'el> in Egypt <Mitsrayim>, when He smote <nagaph> the Egyptians <Mitsrayim>, and delivered <natsal> our houses <bayith>. And the people <`am> bowed the head <qadad> and worshipped <shachah>.
                                   
                                  Exodus 34:25 (Interlinear English-Hebrew) -
                                   25 You shall not offer <shachat> the blood <dam> of My sacrifice <zebach> with leaven <chametz>; neither shall the sacrifice <zebach> of the Feast <chag> of the Passover <pecach> be left <luwn> unto the morning <boqer>.
                                   
                                  YHWH (Yahweh)'s Passover clearly is a sacrifice <zebach>, and YHWSU (Yahshua) was The Passover Lamb of YHWH (Yahweh), Who takes away the sin of the world (Yahchanan / John 1:29, 36), The Passover (Lamb) sacrificed for us, just as the Apostle Shaul (Paul) correctly said in 1 Corinthians 5:7.
                                   
                                  YHWH (Yahweh) Willing, later I will make other comments to other parts of your message, that I have found Scripturally incorrect (according to my own understanding, of course), but I had to point out sooner your error to do NOT consider The Passover to be a sacrifice <zebach>, according to YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah), because that is BASIC, FUNDAMENTAL to rightly and correctly Understand this Important Issue.
                                   
                                  May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
                                   
                                  True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
                                   
                                  Carlo Tognoni
                                   
                                  BYT YHWH
                                  The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
                                   
                                  =====================================================================
                                   
                                   

                                   
                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael <yehochanan@...>
                                  To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 10:32:14 PM
                                  Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?

                                  Shalom Carlo,

                                  You said, I am Very Glad that you have clarified that the ONLY ASPECT that you are correcting would be the implication that YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical death would be the spiritual sacrifice of the Passover and Atonements sacrificial lambs, confirming ALL the other physical aspects of His Life.

                                  As I have said before, I do not deny any spiritual or physical aspect of the actions performed by the Messiah. The one reason I even bring up the issue is the that by limiting the sacrifice of the physicality, the spiritual actions are given secondary importance. So, not only am I not excluding the importance of his physical actions, I am including that spiritual actions that he performed in the spiritual temple.

                                  In common teachings, the only things that is discussed is what happened on earth. In reality, the real work occurred on the spiritual level. This is where everything happens. Take a look at this verse.

                                  Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

                                  I can give many more verses that teach the same thing. For instance, if you read the Book of Revelation, we see that battles were fought in the past, and battles will be fought in the future in the spirit realm. Those things do not happen on planet Earth. So, my point is that the sacrifice of Yehoshua was made on that level as well.

                                  And for some reason, you see to use the term spiritualize in a negative sense as if the spiritual actions are less important than the physical. In truth, it is the spiritual actions that are eternal and most important. This is why Yehoshua had to ascend to the spiritual temple to perform the sacrifice.

                                  You said, But even in this way, you are still denying YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical sacrifice, saying that He would NOT fulfill the requirements of YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah), because His physical body was "bruised".

                                  I finally see why you keep saying that I deny the physical sacrifice. This is because you are using the words in the general sense while I restrict that word only to how the Torah uses it. For instance, the Pesach is NOT a sacrifice (zevach--

                                  xbz) or offering (qorban--Nbrq) according to the Torah. But, in general usage, a sacrifice can be anything that is ritually killed which is incorrect. It is fine if you use the term this way in English. But when I say that the physical suffering and death of Yehoshua is not a sacrifice, I mean ONLY that it does not fit into the category of being a qorban or zevach in the terminology of Torah.

                                  Also, I believe that you interpret my statements that the physical suffering and death are not a sacrifice, then they are not important or required in the Plan of Salvation that YHWH decreed for believers. If you believe this is what I mean, then this is an incorrect assessment of my words.

                                  I showed in my posts that the physical suffering of the Messiah corresponded to the goat for Azazel which

                                  carries away the sins of Israel. It is the burnt offering/olah (the spiritual body of Yehoshua and the goat for YHWH) that makes atonement. But, burnt offerings do not bear or carry away sin, they only cover (make atonement/kipper) the sin. Sins are carried away once per year. So the Eternal Sacrifice of Yehoshua ended the need to carry away sins year after year. My only point is that is that it was his own spiritual body which ascended to spiritual temple (goat for YHWH) that was the olah and not the physical body (goat for Azazel).

                                  John said, As I understand it, all sin offerings had the hands of the guilty party laid upon their heads. The act of laying on of hands (Lev.4:4,15, 24,29,33) symbolizes the transference of sins from the guilty party to the innocent. The innocent then becomes the sin-bearer.

                                  Not one offering in the Torah bares sin. They only cover (kipper) sin--that is--they make expiation/atonement for sin. Read the Torah regulations on the offerings again and you will see this is correct. And this is definitely the case for Pesach and Yom Kippur. If you check the Hebrew text, you will see that Pesach is never called an sacrifice or offering and it is never said to be a sin-bearer. The confusion over this comes from the foul translations. Here is on good of example of the KJV erroneously calling the Pesach a sacrifice.

                                  1Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:

                                  Many people read that in the translation of the New Testament and just assume that the Pesach is a sacrifice. This is incorrect. The Pesach is killed/slaughtered for us. This is literally what it says in the Hebrew text. Not coincidentally, the Greek words that the KJV translated as sacrifice is thuo which means to kill, slay or slaughter. That definition is the exact same the Hebrew word shachat which is used for the Pesach.

                                  Exodus 12:21Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill (shachat) the passover.

                                  When you read the account of the Pesach in the Torah. It is never once called a sacrifice (zevach) or offering (qorban).

                                   

                                  And on Yom Kippur, there are two goats. The goat designated for YHWH is called an olah (sin offering) and make the atonement. The goat for Azazel--like the Pesach--is never called an sacrifice or offering and it is never said to be a sin-bearer even though it also make atonement for sin along with the goat for YHWH. This makes the rituals of those two Holy Days unique. The New Testament explicitly states that the sacrifice of Yehoshua corresponds to Yom Kippur and Pesach lamb/goat. So, it is crucial to review--in DETAIL--the rituals of Yom Kippur and Pesach in Hebrew and you will why I believe it is important to know what the offering of the spiritual body did and what the suffering and death of the physical body did. The spiritual body is what eternally atoned for the our souls and is called the sacrifice. The physical body bore and carried away our sins and atoned for ours sins along with the spiritual body.

                                  So, I definitely have not spiritualized the physical sufferings and death of the Messiah. Sins are committed with the mind/heart and body. Both are corporeal and correspond to the goat for Azazel. Since they are committed on the level of physicality, the Messiah has to suffer on both the mental and bodily level. So, the importance of the physical body of Messiah is that it served to bare and carry away our sins and atoned along with the spiritual body even though it is not called a sacrifice. Without the physical suffering, he would not have fulfilled the aspect of the goat for Azazel and our sins would not have been carried away nor would they have been covered/atoned for. Yes, the physical suffering and death is crucial.

                                  Then, of course, the spiritual body is the true self of the Messiah. We read in the New Testament that YHWH is spirit. If the Messiah existed in the Thought of the Creator from the beginning, then his original state is spiritual--not physical. This is his true self. And it is his true self--spirit body--that was sacrificed in the spiritual temple. So, when the Bible says that he gave up the ghost --literally surrendered his spirit in the Greek and Aramaic texts--his spirit separated from the physical body. At this point, the physical body died and he ascended to the spiritual temple. It is not the cross/stake that killed him. Of his own free will, he departed his body and ascended to the spiritual temple, thereby, leaving his physical shell lifeless. So, the Book of Hebrews picks up from this point and describes what he did in the spiritual temple. When he completed the work in the spiritual temple, he reunited with the physical body, resurrected, and reappeared to his beloved ones. So, you can see, I have not ignored even one aspect of the physical or spiritual actions of the Messiah. And I am able to tie every action back to the Torah.

                                  This should be sufficient to prove what I am saying. But, it will prove nothing if you just read my words and instantly reply. Look at the verses I provided in order to define the words and then reread the Holy Days of Pesach and Yom Kippur. You will see that everything is in its proper place.. And you can also see that I search diligently in the original texts and paid careful attention to context.

                                  The importance of this issue is that those who discredit the New Testament use the belief that Yehoshua is a sacrifice to prove it contradicts Torah given that human sacrifice is forbidden. No…the New Testament says that he was slaughtered and that he bore our sins which is all in line with Torah. I can easily prove that a human can bare (not atone) for the sins of another with the Tanakh. So, they are correct in saying that the physical body of Messiah (that being the human being) cannot be a sacrifice for sin but they are incorrect in saying that he cannot bare our sins.

                                  There are examples of this in the Tanakh. The prophet Ezekiel bore the sins of Israel (Ezekiel 4:1-5). Ironically, this is the SAME chapter the scoffers use to say that one man cannot atone for the sins of another (Ezekiel 18). But, again, this same chapter does say that a man can bare the sins of another. Bearing sin and atoning are two different concepts in the Tanakh. This is obvious in Hebrew but not so in the translations. And when you read the accounts of the sufferings of the Messiah, it ALWAYS SAYS that he bore our sins with his physical body. This is why I differentiate what he did with his physical body and what he did with the spiritual body. I did not provide this explanation before because I believe you guys already knew this. I only show this to unbelievers of the New Testament and there is never a rebuttal. It says explicitly that one can bare the sins of another in the Hebrew text. So, all I have to do show them that Yehoshua offered his sacrifice in his spirit realm in accordance with Torah and that the physical suffering in his body served to carry away (bear) our sins.

                                  Carlo said, For me, instead, the bruising of His physical body, with wounds and stripes, were part of His physical sacrifice, which ultimate stage was the impalement, with a violent and painful physical death.

                                  As I have shown above and in previous posts, the Tanakh nor the New Testament ever says that his suffering was a sacrifice in the original texts--in the Aramaic or Greek. And you will see throughout my posts that I check both the Aramaic and Greek for everything. It is only the Christian translations that call the Passover a sacrifice. The term the Bible uses for the physical suffering of the Messiah is ALWAYS bare (nassa--

                                  )#n), which is the terms used for Ezekiel, in Isaiah 53, and even every instance in the New Testament.

                                  Isaiah 53:4Surely he hath borne (nassa--)#n) our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

                                  Ezekiel 4:4Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: [according] to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear (nassa--)#n) their iniquity.

                                  1Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

                                  In Greek, this is anaphero (

                                  ������� which means to carry/bare--the same as nissa in Hebrew. You will notice that phero is where we get words like transfer. And since you speak Italian, I am sure you know the phero means carry in your mother language. In the Aramaic Peshitta, the word there is shaqel (lq#) which means to carry away. This is deep because the goat to Azazel bore (nassa) our sins and carried them away when it was sent away into the wilderness. Over and over again in the Tanakh and New Testament, we see that the physical suffering is always associated with baring iniquities which ties the physical suffering (and physical body) to the goat for Azazel.

                                  Another thing…Yehoshua never said identified his physical body and suffering with himself. When he referring to his body being in dead three days and suffering, he always used the third person. For example, he never says

                                  I will suffer or I will be dead three days. Let's look at some examples.

                                  Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man (literally human being--ben adam) be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

                                  John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

                                  Luke 17:22-26 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it]. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them]. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

                                  I have search all throughout the New Testament and found the same pattern. He always refers to his physical body and the things that happen to it in the third person--HE. Yet, when he makes reference to his actions, he always speaks in the first person--I. This is no coincidence or poetical speech. The Messiah is a spirit being like his Father because he proceeded and came forth from the Father. He only manifest as flesh an blood for our sake. Only spirit comes directly from the Father. After he came forth from the Father, THEN we was unclothed in flesh. So, to offer himself cannot mean his physical body. It must mean is essential self--the spiritual body--that was with the Thought of the Father from the beginning.

                                  I have completed my explanation but I will respond further some more of your comments.

                                  Carlo said, Very interestingly it is the reference that NONE of His bones was broken, just as it was the requirement for the Passover lamb, fulfilling also the Scriptural Prophecy for The MashiYah (MessiYah) (Yahchanan / John 19:33-36; Exodus 12:46; Numbers 9:12; Psalm 34:20).

                                  No…having unbroken bones is only ONE requirement. What about the rest of the physical requirements of the Pesach? Can you show me all the rest of the physical requirements of the Pesach lamb that the Messiah fulfilled? When you get to the part about the lamb being without blemish or spot, you will see that he fails the physical requirements which he could only fulfill the attributes of the Pesach spiritually. He was spiritually without spot or blemish but he was covered with physical blemishes. Fulfilling ONE or TWO requirements proves nothing.. When it comes to Torah, it is all or nothing.

                                  Carlo also said, And, just as John Cordaro well explained, "soul" (Hebrew "nephesh") means "life", "living person", "body+breath of life" (also the animals are "souls", "nephesh", living creatures), and NOT

                                  spirit (that is Hebrew "ruwach") or "spiritual person", or something of "spiritual" in us, as the FALSE idea and doctrine of the "immortal soul". So that IsaYah 53:10 was referring to "soul" as "life", "living person", "body+breath of life" of YHWSU (Yahshua), Who physically Died, as an Offering for sin, including also bruising Him, and then He was Resurrected to Spiritual Eternal Life.

                                  This is incorrect definition of nefesh which is cause by you trying to mix English with Hebrew. Nefesh has many uses including blood. It certainly does not mean human being. The context determines how we interpret the word. Same goes for the term ruwach which can mean air. Again, context. Human being in Hebrew is adam, not nefesh. A general definition of nefesh is life force though we cannot be exact in English. For instance, let us look at a verse with this word.

                                  Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life (nefesh) thereof, [which is] the blood (dam) thereof, shall ye not eat.

                                  Lev 17:14 For [it is] the life (nefesh) of all flesh; the blood of it [is] for the life (nefesh) thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life (nefesh) of all flesh [is] the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

                                  I can go on and on. As you can see, John's definition that he got from the Christians does not work. The definition living person will not work in those verses.

                                  The context of nefesh is always living force when used by itself as it is in Isaiah 53. In all the examples above, it is used by itself which is why life or life force will work. Only when it is coupled with chayah does it refer to a physical body (human or animal) like in Genesis 2. I read the Bible in Hebrew and I see this all the time. You cannot just look up nefesh in a Christian Bible dictionary and think you know what it means. You must read the Bible in Hebrew and then words like that have obvious meanings. As I said above, the definitions of nefesh varies depending on whether the word is by itself or if it is coupled with another word like chayah. In every case where you see a term like living soul, rest assured it is nefesh ha'chayah or something similar.

                                  Speaking of Isaiah 53:10...let us take a closer look at it. It is always mistranslated. The part that says in the KJV, when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin is completely wrong. In the Hebrew text, it is

                                  w:#pn M#) Myv#t-Ma) which is literally--if (Ma)) impart/place/ put (Myv#t)) sin/trespass (M#)) his soul (w:#pn). It is telling us that sins/trespass is placed upon his soul--not his physical body. Again, associating him with baring sin, not being a sacrifice. In Hebrew, Isaiah 53 does not match up with the description of the Yom Kippur sacrificial goat or the Pesach lamb. The same words are not used. However, the same words are use in Isaiah 53 as are used for the goat for Azazel.

                                  You said, Also you have mixed the two goats offered on the Day of Atonements. Actually YHWH (Yahweh)'s goat was physically sacrificed, killed, just as YHWSU (Yahshua) was physically sacrificed, killed, while on Azazel's goat (the scapegoat) all the sins were Spiritually put, just as YHWSU (Yahshua) Spiritually bore/bears, and atoned/atones all the sins of the world.

                                  I did not mix them up.. I said the same thing. I said the spiritual body--his true self--was the offering. The physical body it what carried the sins. As I showed above directly from the Torah, the sacrificial lamb on Yom Kippur did not bare/carry the sins. The goat for Azazel carries the sins away (Lev 16:21). The goat for YHWH is called the Olah/Offering and does atonement. The goat for Azazel bares the sins and is sent away.

                                  And another thing about the goat for Azazel. We read that the goat for Azazel is sent away alive. So, how is it that Yehoshua is killed? Easy, it is because the Israelites sent him away alive and he was not killed by any Israelite. So, if the goat for Azazel is sent away alive in accordance with Torah and is subsequently killed by an foreigner, the Torah is still upheld. This is why the Jews would not kill him themselves. But, because Israel cannot kill the Azazel, they gave him to the heathen to do it..

                                  Lastly, Carlo said, So, in summary, for me, YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice was BOTH physical AND Spiritual, COMPLETELY fulfilling Passover and Atonements requirements, BOTH physically and Spiritually.

                                  I am very interested to see you demonstrated verse-by-verse how the physical events of the physical suffering, death and resurrections is directly inline with the physical requirements of Pesach and Yom Kippur. This means I need to see the physical temple, see that the lamb/goat fits all the physical requirements, and all the physical actions like the sprinkling of the blood on the door (Pesach) or on the temple, vessels and people (Yom Kippur). We know he fulfilled them both on the spiritual level. I have done a line for line verification on this. I am unable to see any connection in the physical. So, if you can prove it on the physical level, I would like to see it. And keep in mind, fulfilling one or two things does not cut it. It must fulfill every jot and tittle of physical Torah requirements.

                                  That is all for now,

                                  Yehochanan

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                   


                                  --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Shalom Yehochanan!
                                  >  
                                  > I am Very Glad that you have clarified that the ONLY ASPECT thet you are correcting would be the implication that YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical death would be the spiritual sacrifice of the Passover and Atonements sacrificial lambs, confirming ALL the other physical aspects of His Life.
                                  >  
                                  > But even in this way, you are still denying YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical sacrifice, saying that He would NOT fullfil the requirements of YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah), because His physical body was "bruised".
                                  >  
                                  > For me, instead, the bruising of His physical body, with wounds and stripes, were part of His physical sacrifice, which ultimate stage was the impalement, with a violente and painful physical death.
                                  >  
                                  > Very interestingly it is the reference that NONE of His bones was broken, just as it was the requirement for the Passover lamb, fulfilling also the Scriptural Prophecy for The MashiYah (MessiYah) (Yahchanan / John 19:33-36; Exodus 12:46; Numbers 9:12; Psalm 34:20).
                                  >  
                                  > And, just as John Cordaro well explained, "soul" (Hebrew "nephesh") means "life", "living person", "body+breath of life" (also the animals are "souls", "nephesh", living creatures), and NOT spirit (that is Hebrew "ruwach") or "spiritual person", or something of "spiritual" in us, as the FALSE idea and doctrine of the "immortal soul".
                                  >  
                                  > So that IsaYah 53:10 was referring to "soul" as "life", "living person", "body+breath of life" of YHWSU (Yahshua), Who physically Died, as an Offering for sin, including also bruising Him, and then He was Resurrected to Spiritual Eternal Life.
                                  >  
                                  > IsaYah 53:10 -
                                  >  10 Yet it pleased YHWH (Yahweh) to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief: when You shall make His soul an Offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the Pleasure of YHWH (Yahweh) shall prosper in His hand.
                                  >  
                                  > Please, read my post in which I have quoted ISAYAH CHAPTER 53 with all the references and fulfillments of that Scriptural Prophecy in YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Life.
                                  >
                                  > Also you have mixed the two goats offered on the Day of Atonements. Actually YHWH (Yahweh)'s goat was physically sacrificed, killed, just as YHWSU (Yahshua) was physically sacrificed, killed, while on Azazel's goat (the scapegoat) all the sins were Spiritually put, just as YHWSU (Yahshua) Spiritually bore/bears, and atoned/atones all the sins of the world.
                                  >  
                                  > About the symbols of unleavened bread and wine, they clearly are the Memorial of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical Death, and NOT of His "Spiritual" Death (???), of course.
                                  >  
                                  > 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 -
                                  >  23 For I have received of the Master that which also I delivered unto you, That the Master YHWSU (Yahshua) the same night in which He was betrayed took bread:
                                  >  24 And when He had given thanks, He brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is My Body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of Me.
                                  >  25 After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, saying, This cup is the New Yestament in My blood: this do you, as oft as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.
                                  >  26 For as often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you do shew the Master's Death till He come.
                                  >  
                                  > Would His Disciples remember His SPIRITUAL Death (???), or His PHYSICAL Death?
                                  >  
                                  > It is extremely obvious that YHWSU (Yahshua) Died PHYSICALLY, and NOT SPIRITUALLY, and He Lives SPIRITUALLY Forever! Or do you believe that He DIED SPIRITUALLY? ??
                                  >  
                                  > You have quoted Yahchanan (John) 6:50-52, trying to explain that the bread to eat at YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Memorial, would be symbolic of the "Spiritual" bread, which comes down from Heaven.
                                  >  
                                  > Please continue to read, to see what really was the Bread that came down from Heaven...
                                  >  
                                  > Yahchanan (John) 6:50-58 -
                                  >  50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
                                  >  51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the Bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
                                  >  52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us His flesh to eat?
                                  >  53 Then YHWSU (Yahshua) said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
                                  >  54 Whoso eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has Eternal Life; and I will raise him up at the Last Day.
                                  >  55 For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
                                  >  56 He that eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him.
                                  >  57 As The Living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eats Me, even he shall live by Me.
                                  >  58 This is that bread which came down from Heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live for ever.
                                  >  
                                  > The Bread that came down from Heaven was HIS FLESH!
                                  > Was YHWSU (Yahshua) saying to physically eat His physical flesh, and to physically drink His physical blood, to have Eternal Life, to live forever?
                                  > Of course NOT, because that would be absolutely contrary to YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah).
                                  >  
                                  > Was YHWSU (Yahshua) saying to physically eat bread, symbolizing His "Spiritual" flesh, and to physically drink wine, symbolizing His "Spiritual" blood, to have Eternal Life, to life forever?
                                  > Of course NOT, because flesh and blood canNOT inherit The Reign of YHWH (Yahweh) (1 Corinthians 15:50), so that there is NO KIND of flesh and blood in YHWH (Yahweh)'s Reign, including, of course, "Spiritual" flesh and blood.
                                  >  
                                  > YHWH (Yahweh) is Spirit a Spirit (Yahchanan / John 4:24), and NOT "Spiritual" flesh and blood, and the SAME is YHWSU (Yahshua) NOW!
                                  >  
                                  > Was YHWSU (Yahshua) saying to physically eat bread, symbolizing to Spiritually eat His physical flesh given for the life of the world (that is, the Bread that came down from Heaven - See Yahchanan / John 6:51), and to physically drink wine, symbolizing to Spiritually drink His physical blood shed for our sins, to have Eternal Life, to life forever? YES, I believe so!
                                  >  
                                  > Otherwise, please, show me, in The Scriptures, WHERE and HOW would YHWSU (Yahshua) have given His "Spiritual" flesh, and have shed His "Spiritual" blood???
                                  >  
                                  > And, please, do NOT tell me that to eat His "Spiritual" flesh, and to drink His "Spiritual" blood would be to follow His Perfect Example, in Keeping YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah), since all the Fathers from the righteous Abel, and then the Children of Israel ALREADY had YHWH (Yahweh)'s PERFECT Law (Torah) to Follow, LONG before the Coming of YHWSU (Yahshua).
                                  >  
                                  > So, in summary, for me, YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice was BOTH physical AND Spiritual, COMPLETELY fulfilling Passover and Atonements requirements, BOTH physically and Spiritually..
                                  >  
                                  > Of course, He did NOT Die "Spiritually" - He Died physically, and He Lives Spiritually Forever!
                                  >  
                                  > His physical Death and Sacrifice (symbolized from the unleavened bread and wine that we take in His Memorial), just as YHWH (Yahweh)'s Passover and Atonements lambs, covers, atones, takes away our sins, and His Spiritual Life in us, through The Set Apart Spirit, empowers us to Keep YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law, Writing Them on our minds and hearts, following His Perfect Example, to become Perfect just as our Heavenly Father, YHWH (Yahweh) is PERFECT (Mattithyah / Matthew 5:43-48)!
                                  >  
                                  > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
                                  >  
                                  > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
                                  >  
                                  > Carlo Tognoni
                                  >  
                                  > BYT YHWH
                                  > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
                                  > www.byt-yhwh. org
                                  >  
                                  > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ===
                                  >  
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message ----
                                  > From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael yehochanan@. ..
                                  > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 4:03:20 PM
                                  > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Romans 14:9For to this end (purpose)
                                  > The Messiah was had to died suffer and died physically and then resurrect in order to enter to spiritual tabernacle to perform the Eternal Sacrifice. So, the reason he said that Peter could not follow is because flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. So, the issue is not there is performed the Eternal Sacrifice or not. My point is that it did not occur at Calvary. It occurred in the Heavenly Tabernacle just as the Book of Hebrews says it did. This is why he told Peter that he could not go where he was about to go.Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. John 13:36Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
                                  > You said, Let me ask you how would you "Spiritualize" YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Command, at the Passover time, for the Memorial of His Death?
                                  > This is correct. It is an abomination to eat physical human flesh. You know that it says this in the Torah.. So YOU KNOW that he was not talking about eating his physical flesh or body. I do not know why you asked me that. I will show that the body that we wanted his followers to focus on was not his physical body. The body that is the focus is the spiritual body which is HIS WORD.
                                  > Let us take another look at this verse that you are referring to.
                                  > Would the unleavened bread, that He told His Disciples to eat, symbolize
                                  > His "Spiritual" body, and NOT His physical body, that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed? Mat 26:26-29¶ And as they were eating, Jesus
                                  > Yehoshua stated that THE BREAD is his body. He had already taught them that that he is the Bread of God (John 6:33) and the Bread of Life (John 6:35). He taught that this he who eat he that comes to him shall never hunger and he that believeth on him shall never thirst (John 6:35). Let look at the whole verse to get the symbolism.took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, ye all of it; For this is Drinkmy bloodof the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.John 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
                                  > His word is the bread!
                                  > For emphasis, this is another verse that show the difference between his physical body (bread) and spiritual body (spiritual bread/the Word of YHWH).He is the Word and he is the Bread and he is the Life and he is the Light. All of these terms are and more are synonymous in the New Testament. It is HIS WORD that gives eternal life. This is what we just read in the previous verse. He never said that his physical body gave eternal life. The bread he is talking about is the spiritual bread, the Word of YHWH. He is not talking about his physical body which is made of earth and is not from Heaven. It is his spiritual body (self) that came from Heaven and YHWH. This is the body he is talking about. John 6:50-51This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down
                                  >  
                                  > We know that the bread he spoke of was his body. We also know that he has a spiritual body. So, the question is this. What body came down from heaven? His physical body or his spiritual body?
                                  > What bread will give eternal life? Will eating his physical flesh give eternal life or will obey his word and believing in the Father give eternal life. If you check the scriptures, the way to eternal life is obeying the word of Messiah and having complete devotion to YHWH. When we search the scriptures-- Tanakh and New Testament--we see that salvation and eternal life is ALWAYS associated with obedience to YHWH and his Torah.. from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.John 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth (obeys) my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Mat 19:16-17¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good?
                                  > [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
                                  > This is the hint at symbolic meaning of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. It has nothing to do with a physical ritual or symbolizing the eating of his physical flesh. This means we have his the Torah (Word, Bread, Flesh) in our hearts/minds and we live according to the Word of the Father by means of His Son.
                                  > The next verse is the biggest proof that he is differentiating between physical bread and spiritual bread. John 6:55-58For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by meThis is that bread : not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
                                  > In Hebraic thought, bread symbolized wisdom. There are two types of bread. Bread from heaven and bread from earth. Yehoshua is speaking of the bread from heaven--spiritual bread--not the bread that we can touch.
                                  > You asked, Would the wine, that He told His Disciples to drink, symbolize His "Spiritual" blood, and NOT His physical blood, the Blood of The New Covenant shed for many?
                                  > Yes. The same thing can be shown with the drink. This next verse will give the context of both the bread and the drink. This next verse will show that both the bread and the drink he was talking about was spiritual.. which came down from heavenMatthew 26:27-29And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new
                                  > We know that the bread and drink he is talking about is spiritual because he told his disciples that they will drink it with him in His Father's kingdom. The Father's kingdom is not physical. It is spiritual bread and spiritual drink that is in the kingdom of heaven, not physical bread and drink.
                                  > Now, it this is not proven to you yet. I will not directly show that the New Testament spiritualizes everything including bread and drink. It is this spiritual bread and drink that Yehoshua is talking about. So, it is not me who spiritualizes everything the New Testament does this. Without further day, read this verse.with youin my Father's kingdom.1Corinthian s 10:2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
                                  > Again, his physical body is not from heaven. Only his spiritual body is. His physical body is clearly said the be earthly from the physical seed of David. Romans 1:3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
                                  > The bread/body that Yehoshua is talking is about is from heaven. Two different bodies. So, to answer you question--NO- -Yehoshua is not talking about the body that was that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed. That was his physical body which is from physical matter, not from heaven. His spiritual body is directly from YHWH as you proved in detail when you showed that Yehoshua did not pre-exist.
                                  > My last email was too long to show the EVERY DETAIL of the sacrificial system is spiritualized in the New Testament. So, often time, when we see a word that we think I physical, the New Testament gives the REAL meaning which is spiritual. So, again, Yehoshua is talking about the spiritual bread and drink, not physical.
                                  > You asked, How could ALL that be ONLY Spiritual, and ALL the physical aspects denied?
                                  > I do not deny any physical aspects. He had to teach physically. He had to demonstrate physically complete obedience, love and devotion to YHWH in the flesh as an perfect example for us. Let us look at a good verse that will clarify this more.Hebrews 5:6-9As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect,he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;We just read above that we only attained eternal life by obeying (hearing) his word and believing in the Father. So, by him suffering physically, this gives his followers the faith that we can obey to the point of death as well. Complete obedience and
                                  > faith in YHWH is required for His Grace and Salvation.. And the Scriptures tell us that he will not make us endure more than we can bear. This is why is says the following.1John 3:6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
                                  > So, I look to the Scriptures to tell me the reason for his physical suffering and death. It literally tells us. There is no need to interpret. He suffered to give us an example the perfect obedience. And he died so that he could be lord over the living and the dead. Again, nowhere does it say his physical death at Calvary fulfilled Pesach or Yom Kippur. This what done in the spiritual tabernacles which I showed in the two previous posts.
                                  > Lastly, you said, What I see written in The Scriptures are BOTH Spiritual and physical aspects of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice. And I believe that NEITHER of them have to be denied.
                                  > Neither do I. However, as I said many times, there is not one place in the Bible that says that his execution at Calvary fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur offering. This was done in the spiritual temple.
                                  >
                                  > You are incorrect to say that the physical abuses, humiliation and torment he suffered are called sacrifices in the Bible. It does not say this even once in the Tanakh or New Testament. I literally read every verse in the Tanakh and New Testament detailing the suffering of the Messiah. No once are his sufferings called a sacrifice, atonement or propitiation. Since you called them sacrifices, you naturally assume that I disregard the important of the Messiah suffering and dying physically. I do not. Rather, the Scriptures says the ONLY SACRIFICE was his soul (spiritual body), not his physical body (Isaiah 53:10).
                                  > The Bible DOES tell us the reason for his suffering and death. I already documented in this and a previous post, the reason for his death (which was not atonement). Apostle Peter tells us the reason that he suffered.Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.1Peter 2:21-25For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray;
                                  > but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.NOW, I WILL EXPLAIN THE REAL MEANING OF THE PHYSICAL SUFFERING OF YEHOSHUA!!
                                  > It is unfortunate because with this explanation, I do not even need the words that I said above. Since I spent two hours typing so, I will leave them there for you to read. But, this explanation with explained the meaning of the spiritual sacrifice of Yehoshua and the reason for his physical suffering. I actually should make this post next part of the post a separate post. But, if you are like me, you will read the first one and respond to it when I think that the remained of the post will answer all questions you have. So, consider this post a rough draft of a article I will write in the future on this subject.
                                  > Recall, I said that the physical body of Yehoshua was never called a sacrifice. Rather, it was his spiritual body. I also said that Yehoshua fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice at the spiritual level and not the physical. In truth, the true sacrifice that made atonement for our sins was his spiritual body. However, his physical body was the scapegoat/Azazel that bared our sins. BOTH GOATS made atonement. The physical body is not a Sacrifice even though it also was required for atonement. We will learn that this in true in the Torah.
                                  > Keep in mind…the New Testament says that the Messiah died for our sins, was buried, and resurrected according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Therefore, to understand this properly, we must go to the only Scriptures that Paul could have been talking about at that time--the Tanakh. Also remember we are talking about Yehoshua fulfilling the Yom Kippur sacrifice. We know that the purpose of the Yom Kippur rituals was to make atonement for all Israel (every year). Yehoshua accomplished this once and for all. So, all we need to do is go to Leviticus 16, read the whole chapter, and then look in the New Testament to see where everything matches up. Due to the length, I request you open you Bible up to Leviticus 16 since it would be too long to cut and paste to this post. Then I can just refer individual verses.
                                  > The reason we interpret the physical suffering and death of Yehoshua with the Yom Kippur sacrifice because we assume that it is the sacrificial lamb that bears our sins. This is incorrect. Before I continue on, let us look to the verse that is the source of the confusion. leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Peter 2:24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body ,
                                  > This is a direct reference to Isaiah 53 which says the same thing about the Messiah--that being--his physical flesh bared our sins. And we know that we are talking about the physical flesh because the spiritual body did not hang on the tree/cross/stake. We will now inspect Leviticus 16 and see that it is not the sacrificial lamb that bares the sin, it is the scapegoat/azazel (which is not called a sacrifice) that bears the sin.
                                  > First of all, to fulfill the Yom Kippur sacrifice, we need TWO GOATS, not one. One goat is the sacrifice for sin, the other is not a sacrifice. on the treethat we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.Lev 16:7-10And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat (Azazel). And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him [for] a sin offering. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness..
                                  > I have gone into great detail to show that the spiritual body of Yehoshua was the sacrifice. But what of the Azazel/scapegoat? It is the scapegoat (physical body) that bears and carries away our sins, not the sacrificial lamb (spiritual body).Lev 16:20-22¶ And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat (scapegoat/Azazel) : And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat : and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
                                  > We see there that it is the scapegoat that bears the iniquity, not the sacrificial lamb. We know that Yehoshua is the sacrificial lamb and we know that he is bore our sins. But, it is Yehoshua as the scapegoat that bore out sins, not as the sacrificial lamb. Also note that the scapegoat never enters the Tabernacle. This supports what I said that the spiritual body (sacrificial lamb) entered the (spiritual) tabernacle and was sacrifices while the physical body (scapegoat) did not. The physical body was considered accurse (for us), placed in a tomb and resurrected. The spiritual body is what entered the Heavenly Temple.
                                  > Now, read Galatians 3:13.upon the head of the goat, shall bear upon him all their iniquitiesunto a land not inhabitedGalatians 3:13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
                                  > Again, notice that it mentions him being on a tree (like in the Peter reference above) to make sure we do not confuse the physical body with the spiritual.. It is the scapegoat (physical body) that was made a curse for us, not his spiritual body (the sacrificial lamb) which is holy.
                                  > I believe I have made my point so far, but I have one more thing to add. Recall, I said everything involving the Yom Kippur service is in the New Testament. Well, what does it means that the scapegoat (physical body of Yehoshua) was sent into a land not inhabited in the wilderness?Lev 16:22And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
                                  > This is explained in the Book of Acts. This is the physical death that Yehoshua experienced. Yes, as I said, I do not exclude the importance of the physical aspect of the sacrifice. It is also crucial. Acts 2:24-32Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had
                                  > sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
                                  > This is speaking of the period of time that Yehoshua spent in a state of separation from holiness. However, this is what he cried out to the Father to deliver him from. It is funny how people think that when he asked the cup to be removed from him because he was afraid of death. The truth is that he did not ever want to be in a state of uncleanness and impurity. However, the Father raised him up to take his rightful place as King of Israel. Hence he is truly the physical king of Israel and at the same time, the High Priest in the spiritual temple.
                                  > But we also must remember that the scapegoat must be alive. I believe that his physical body remained alive in order to fulfill Torah. This is why it says that even though his body was in the grave, it did not see corruption. In the case of Yehoshua, it says (in the Aramaic) that he surrendered his spirit (John 19:30). In the Greek texts (and I checked several different ones), it says he gave his spirit into the hands of another. And when we read of instances of persons dying in the Hebrew Tanakh, it always used the word muth--and he died. The things happens in the New Testament. Yet, in this case, you do not see the word he died. His death was spiritual because he was in a state of separation from holiness. And to prove that his body remained in tact, he allowed Thomas to touch him. This had to happen in order to full the Torah requirement of the scapegoat remaining alive. And, as I showed in a previous post, the concept of spiritual death does exist.
                                  > There is no mention of death regardless of how it reads in the European languages which are usually translated to support their doctrine. Again, in the original languages. It does not say he died. If you look at all the instances of people dying in the New Testament, you can look at the original language to see how they describe it. Yet, when he was on the stake, it does not say he died. So can do you own research on that issue. But, for me, I believe Yehoshua died according to the Scriptures. And according to the Scriptures, it is the spiritual body (the sacrificial lamb) that dies, not the physical one which is intend to be the scapegoat and keep alive.
                                  >  
                                  > Now, I will summary my points.
                                  > The technicality that I bring up in this thread is that physical body of Yehoshua is cannot represent the sacrificial lamb of Yom Kippur. I believe that the Bible says that his spiritual body (true self) represents the sacrificial lamb while his physical body is the scapegoat that bore our sins and made atonement with the sacrificial body. I also believe that both goats made atonement on Yom Kippur so both the spiritual and physical bodies of Yehoshua made atonement. It is his spiritual body that is the High Priest in the heavenly tabernacle while the physical body will return as the et

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                                • Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael
                                  Shalom, Carlo said, It is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE that The Passover is NOT a sacrifice (zebach), as you have erroneously claimed… This is correct. I misspoke
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 6, 2008
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                                    Shalom,

                                    Carlo said,

                                    It is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE that The Passover is NOT a sacrifice (zebach), as you have erroneously claimed…

                                    This is correct. I misspoke because I was typing so fast. But if you read my posts, what I have said all along is that is that the physical body and the spiritual body were both ritually slaughtered which is zevach in Hebrew. I even gave the verses in Isaiah 53 and 1 Peter that said that he was slaughtered and proved it in the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.   So, it is wrong for you to say that I was claiming that the Messiah was not a zevach. Rather, I just misspoke. I just read it. I counted at least three times that is said that WAS is a zevach. My point is that the physical body is not an olah or qorban.   If your read the part where i said that again, the specific wording is used is that he was not an sacrifice or offeringSo, what I meant to type there was qorban, not zebach. I do not how I got sidetracked and started typing zevach. 

                                    The Olah/burnt offering is a sacrifice (zevach), but not all sacrifices are burnt offerings. So I exclude the physical body of Yehoshua from being an Olah, not from being an sacrifice. So, in the future, since we have a working knowledge of Hebrew, let us stick to the Hebrew terminology to avoid confusion.

                                    What I claimed and proved in the Torah is that the goat for Azazel (his physical body) is not a olah or kipper (burnt offering or atonement). It is his spiritual body (which is his true self and is from Heaven) that is the real olah and kipper. The physical body, which did not pre-exist and is made from the seed of David, is not the olah. So I certainly hope that you did not loose the focus and basis of my proof because of that one error.

                                    To get you back on focus, let me summarize my points.

                                    1. The Messiah has a spiritual body and a physical body.

                                    2. The spiritual body corresponds to the goat for YHWH while the physical body corresponds to the goat for Azazel.

                                    3. The goat for YHWH (spiritual body) is an olah and kipper. It does not bare sin. It covers/atones/expiates (kipper) the sins of Israel.

                                    4. The goat for Azazel (physical body) bares (nassa) the sins of Israel and is also a kipper.

                                    5. The Pesach is the spiritual body. The Messiah fulfilled all of the spiritual requirements of being a Pesach but did not fulfill all of the physical requirements such as being physically without blemish or spot.

                                    6. At Calvary (a physical place), the Messiah bore our sins with his physical body and took them away corresponding to the goat for Azazel.

                                    7. In the spiritual temple (a spiritual place), when he surrendered his spirit, he performed the offering of his spiritual body as an olah and eternal kipper corresponding to the goat for YHWH.

                                    8. A physical body cannot be an olah, but is CAN bare sins according to the Tanakh. So, referring to the physical body of Yehoshua as an olah contradicts the Torah prohibition of human sacrifice. There is no Torah prohibition against the offering of the spiritual body to the Creator. We commanded to do this ourselves in the Tanakh and New Testament.

                                    9. Making this subtle distinction between the physical events at Calvary and the actions in the spiritual temple bring the New Testament back in harmony with the Tanakh since the there is no human olah (burnt offering). In addition, the Tanakh does not prophesy that the Messiah will be an olah. Therefore, this belief does not contradict the Tanakh or the New Testament. On the other hand, saying that the physical body of Yehoshua is an olah DOES contradict Torah since the physical body of Yehoshua is human in all aspects.

                                    Let me know which points you agree with by number.

                                    Then, I will know where we agree and we can build from there. When you respond, you can make reference to one of the points you disagree with. Then we can have a focus of discussion and narrow this argument down to a point. Then, we will not be just nick picking over terminology and minor interpretations and we can focus on the main subject. When we have an agreement on the general topic, then we can go into the details.

                                    So far, you (Carlo) or John have not responded to my main contentions such as the Messiah fulfilling the physical requirements of Pesach. So, if we just stick to one point at a time, we will not have to go back and forth in circles with nothing being proved either way. And keep in mind, none of my above points contradicts the fact that the Messiah eternally fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur. So, the issue is not whether or not he did it. The issue is how.

                                    In addition, this is also an exercise in explaining how Yehoshua fulfilled Pesach and Yom Kippur to those who believe that the New Testament contradicts Torah. All the messianic explanations say that human sacrifice is okay because the New Testament says so. They claim that it is okay to break Torah as long as the New Testament says say is garbage. My point is that the New Testament is based on the New Testament and does not contain any new teachings and certainly none that contradict Torah. This is why I requested a verse by verse explanation of how Yehoshua is a physical olah (goat for YHWH) and physical Pesach. At this point, I cannot prove that he is a physical olah or physical Pesach but I can prove easily that he is a physical olah or physical pesach verse by verse in the Tanakh.

                                    So my point is not to bash your beliefs or the New Testament. My point is the be able to harmonize the New Testament with the Tanakh. I believe the Tanakh is more authentic and reliable than the New Testament. If the two contradict, then I choose the Tanakh and will assume that I do not understand the New Testament verse in light of the Torah. The person who recent came in the forum saw what they believed to be contradictions to the Torah and, therefore, reject the New Testament (David HaKahan). So the whole reason I bring up the issue is to make sure we have an solid answers. Once I have ironed out the complete explanation and prove that Yehoshua fulfilled Pesach and Yom Kippur in accordance with Torah, then I will write proof-based article that I can just give to a person who doubts the truth is the miraculous blessing from YHWH. This way, we do not have to debate with the scoffers back and forth.

                                    Shalom,

                                    Yehochanan

                                     

                                     


                                    --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com, BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Shalom Yehochanan!
                                    > You said,I finally see why you keep saying that I deny the physical sacrifice. This is because you are using the words in the general sense while I restrict that word only to how the Torah uses it. For instance, the Pesach is NOT a sacrifice (zevach--xbz) or offering (qorban--Nbrq) according to the Torah. But, in general usage, a sacrifice can be anything that is ritually killed which is incorrect. It is fine if you use the term this way in English. But when I say that the physical suffering and death of Yehoshua is not a sacrifice, I mean ONLYthat it does not fit into the category of being a qorban or zevach in the terminology of Torah.
                                    >
                                    > It is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE that The Passover is NOT a sacrifice (zebach), as you have erroneously claimed, since, in YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah), we clearly read:
                                    > Exodus 12:27 (Interlinear English-Hebrew) -
                                    >  27 That you shall say <'amar>, It is the sacrifice <zebach> of YHWH (Yahweh)'s Passover <pecach>, who passed <pacach> over the houses <bayith> of the children <ben> of Israel <Yisra'el> in Egypt <Mitsrayim>, when He smote <nagaph> the Egyptians <Mitsrayim>, and delivered <natsal> our houses <bayith>. And the people <`am> bowed the head <qadad> and worshipped <shachah>.
                                    > Exodus 34:25 (Interlinear English-Hebrew) -
                                    >  25 You shall not offer <shachat> the blood <dam> of My sacrifice <zebach> with leaven <chametz>; neither shall the sacrifice <zebach> of the Feast <chag> of the Passover <pecach> be left <luwn> unto the morning <boqer>.
                                    > YHWH (Yahweh)'s Passover clearly is a sacrifice <zebach>, and YHWSU (Yahshua) was The Passover Lamb of YHWH (Yahweh), Who takes away the sin of the world (Yahchanan / John 1:29, 36), The Passover (Lamb) sacrificed for us, just as the Apostle Shaul (Paul) correctly said in 1 Corinthians 5:7.
                                    > YHWH (Yahweh) Willing, later I will make other comments to other parts of your message, that I have found Scripturally incorrect (according to my own understanding, of course), but I had to point out sooner your error to do NOT consider The Passover to be a sacrifice <zebach>, according to YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah), because that is BASIC, FUNDAMENTAL to rightly and correctly Understand this Important Issue.
                                    > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
                                    > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
                                    > Carlo Tognoni
                                    > BYT YHWH
                                    > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
                                    > www.byt-yhwh.org
                                    > =====================================================================
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael yehochanan@...
                                    > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 10:32:14 PM
                                    > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Ephesians 6:12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].
                                    > I can give many more verses that teach the same thing. For instance, if you read the Book of Revelation, we see that battles were fought in the past, and battles will be fought in the future in the spirit realm. Those things do not happen on planet Earth. So, my point is that the sacrifice of Yehoshua was made on that level as well.
                                    > And for some reason, you see to use the term spiritualize in a negative sense as if the spiritual actions are less important than the physical. In truth, it is the spiritual actions that are eternal and most important. This is why Yehoshua had to ascend to the spiritual temple to perform the sacrifice.
                                    > You said, But even in this way, you are still denying YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical sacrifice, saying that He would NOT fulfill the requirements of YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah), because His physical body was "bruised"..
                                    > I finally see why you keep saying that I deny the physical sacrifice. This is because you are using the words in the general sense while I restrict that word only to how the Torah uses it. For instance, the Pesach is NOT a sacrifice (zevach--
                                    > Also, I believe that you interpret my statements that the physical suffering and death are not a sacrifice, then they are not important or required in the Plan of Salvation that YHWH decreed for believers. If you believe this is what I mean, then this is an incorrect assessment of my words.
                                    > I showed in my posts that the physical suffering of the Messiah corresponded to the goat for Azazel which
                                    > John said, As I understand it, all sin offerings had the hands of the guilty party laid upon their heads. xbz) or offering (qorban--Nbrq) according to the Torah. But, in general usage, a sacrifice can be anything that is ritually killed which is incorrect. It is fine if you use the term this way in English. But when I say that the physical suffering and death of Yehoshua is not a sacrifice, I mean ONLY that it does not fit into the category of being a qorban or zevach in the terminology of Torah. carries away the sins of Israel.The act of laying on of hands (Lev.4:4,15, 24,29,33) symbolizes the transference of sins from the guilty party to the innocent. The innocent then becomes the sin-bearer. Not one offering in the Torah bares sin. They only cover (kipper) sin--that is--they make expiation/atonement for sin. Read the Torah regulations on the offerings again and you will see this is correct. And this is definitely the case for Pesach and Yom Kippur. If
                                    > you check the Hebrew text, you will see that Pesach is never called an sacrifice or offering and it is never said to be a sin-bearer. The confusion over this comes from the foul translations. Here is on good of example of the KJV erroneously calling the Pesach a sacrifice.1Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
                                    > Many people read that in the translation of the New Testament and just assume that the Pesach is a sacrifice. This is incorrect. The Pesach is killed/slaughtered for us. This is literally what it says in the Hebrew text. Not coincidentally, the Greek words that the KJV translated as sacrifice is thuo which means to kill, slay or slaughter. That definition is the exact same the Hebrew word shachat which is used for the Pesach.Exodus 12:21 ¶ Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill (shachat) the passover.When you read the account of the Pesach in the Torah. It is never once called a sacrifice (zevach) or offering (qorban).
                                    >  
                                    > And on Yom Kippur, there are two goats. The goat designated for YHWH is called an olah (sin offering) and make the atonement. The goat for Azazel--like the Pesach--is never called an sacrifice or offering and it is never said to be a sin-bearer even though it also make atonement for sin along with the goat for YHWH. This makes the rituals of those two Holy Days unique. The New Testament explicitly states that the sacrifice of Yehoshua corresponds to Yom Kippur and Pesach lamb/goat. So, it is crucial to review--in DETAIL--the rituals of Yom Kippur and Pesach in Hebrew and you will why I believe it is important to know what the offering of the spiritual body did and what the suffering and death of the physical body did. The spiritual body is what eternally atoned for the our souls and is called the sacrifice. The physical body bore and carried away our sins and atoned for ours sins along with the spiritual body.
                                    > So, I definitely have not spiritualized the physical sufferings and death of the Messiah. Sins are committed with the mind/heart and body. Both are corporeal and correspond to the goat for Azazel. Since they are committed on the level of physicality, the Messiah has to suffer on both the mental and bodily level. So, the importance of the physical body of Messiah is that it served to bare and carry away our sins and atoned along with the spiritual body even though it is not called a sacrifice. Without the physical suffering, he would not have fulfilled the aspect of the goat for Azazel and our sins would not have been carried away nor would they have been covered/atoned for. Yes, the physical suffering and death is crucial.
                                    > Then, of course, the spiritual body is the true self of the Messiah. We read in the New Testament that YHWH is spirit. If the Messiah existed in the Thought of the Creator from the beginning, then his original state is spiritual--not physical. This is his true self. And it is his true self--spirit body--that was sacrificed in the spiritual temple. So, when the Bible says that he gave up the ghost --literally surrendered his spirit in the Greek and Aramaic texts--his spirit separated from the physical body. At this point, the physical body died and he ascended to the spiritual temple. It is not the cross/stake that killed him. Of his own free will, he departed his body and ascended to the spiritual temple, thereby, leaving his physical shell lifeless. So, the Book of Hebrews picks up from this point and describes what he did in the spiritual temple. When he completed the work in the spiritual temple, he reunited with the physical body, resurrected, and
                                    > reappeared to his beloved ones. So, you can see, I have not ignored even one aspect of the physical or spiritual actions of the Messiah. And I am able to tie every action back to the Torah.
                                    > This should be sufficient to prove what I am saying. But, it will prove nothing if you just read my words and instantly reply. Look at the verses I provided in order to define the words and then reread the Holy Days of Pesach and Yom Kippur. You will see that everything is in its proper place. And you can also see that I search diligently in the original texts and paid careful attention to context.
                                    > The importance of this issue is that those who discredit the New Testament use the belief that Yehoshua is a sacrifice to prove it contradicts Torah given that human sacrifice is forbidden. No…the New Testament says that he was slaughtered and that he bore our sins which is all in line with Torah. I can easily prove that a human can bare (not atone) for the sins of another with the Tanakh. So, they are correct in saying that the physical body of Messiah (that being the human being) cannot be a sacrifice for sin but they are incorrect in saying that he cannot bare our sins.
                                    > There are examples of this in the Tanakh. The prophet Ezekiel bore the sins of Israel (Ezekiel 4:1-5). Ironically, this is the SAME chapter the scoffers use to say that one man cannot atone for the sins of another (Ezekiel 18). But, again, this same chapter does say that a man can bare the sins of another. Bearing sin and atoning are two different concepts in the Tanakh. This is obvious in Hebrew but not so in the translations. And when you read the accounts of the sufferings of the Messiah, it ALWAYS SAYS that he bore our sins with his physical body. This is why I differentiate what he did with his physical body and what he did with the spiritual body. I did not provide this explanation before because I believe you guys already knew this. I only show this to unbelievers of the New Testament and there is never a rebuttal. It says explicitly that one can bare the sins of another in the Hebrew text. So, all I have to do show them that Yehoshua offered his
                                    > sacrifice in his spirit realm in accordance with Torah and that the physical suffering in his body served to carry away (bear) our sins.
                                    > Carlo said, For me, instead, the bruising of His physical body, with wounds and stripes, were part of His physical sacrifice, which ultimate stage was the impalement, with a violent and painful physical death.
                                    > As I have shown above and in previous posts, the Tanakh nor the New Testament ever says that his suffering was a sacrifice in the original texts--in the Aramaic or Greek. And you will see throughout my posts that I check both the Aramaic and Greek for everything. It is only the Christian translations that call the Passover a sacrifice. The term the Bible uses for the physical suffering of the Messiah is ALWAYS bare (nassa--)#n), which is the terms used for Ezekiel, in Isaiah 53, and even every instance in the New Testament.Isaiah 53:4¶ Surely he hath borne(nassa--)#n) our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.Ezekiel 4:4¶ Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: [according] to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear(nassa--)#n) their iniquity.1Peter 2:24Who his own self
                                    > In Greek, this is anaphero (
                                    > Another thing…Yehoshua never said identified his physical body and suffering with himself. When he referring to his body being in dead three days and suffering, he always used the third person. For example, he never says bareour sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. ï�¡ï�®ï�¡ï�¦ï�¥ï�²ï�·ï€©which means to carry/bare--the same as nissa in Hebrew. You will notice that phero is where we get words like transfer.And since you speak Italian, I am sure you know the phero means carry in your mother language. In the Aramaic Peshitta, the word there is shaqel ( lq#) which meansto carry away. This is deep because the goat to Azazel bore (nassa) our sins and carried them away when it was sent away into the wilderness. Over and over again in the Tanakh and New Testament, we see that the physical suffering is always associated with baring
                                    > iniquities which ties the physical suffering (and physical body) to the goat for Azazel.Iwill suffer I will be dead three days.Matthew 12:40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man (literally human being--ben adam) be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. John 2:19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Luke 17:22-26And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it]. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them]. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in
                                    > I have search all throughout the New Testament and found the same pattern. He always refers to his physical body and the things that happen to it in the third person--HE. Yet, when he makes reference to his actions, he always speaks in the first person--I. This is no coincidence or poetical speech. The Messiah is a spirit being like his Father because he proceeded and came forth from the Father. He only manifest as flesh an blood for our sake. Only spirit comes directly from the Father. After he came forth from the Father, THEN we was unclothed in flesh. So, to offer himself cannot mean his physical body. It must mean is essential self--the spiritual body--that was with the Thought of the Father from the beginning.
                                    > I have completed my explanation but I will respond further some more of your comments.
                                    > Carlo said, Very interestingly it is the reference that NONE of His bones was broken, just as it was the requirement for the Passover lamb, fulfilling also the Scriptural Prophecy for The MashiYah (MessiYah) (Yahchanan / John 19:33-36; Exodus 12:46; Numbers 9:12; Psalm 34:20).
                                    > No…having unbroken bones is only ONE requirement. What about the rest of the physical requirements of the Pesach? Can you show me all the rest of the physical requirements of the Pesach lamb that the Messiah fulfilled? When you get to the part about the lamb being without blemish or spot, you will see that he fails the physical requirements which he could only fulfill the attributes of the Pesach spiritually. He was spiritually without spot or blemish but he was covered with physical blemishes. Fulfilling ONE or TWO requirements proves nothing. When it comes to Torah, it is all or nothing.
                                    > Carlo also said, And, just as John Cordaro well explained, "soul" (Hebrew "nephesh") means "life", "living person", "body+breath of life" (also the animals are "souls", "nephesh", living creatures), and NOT (that is Hebrew "ruwach") or "spiritual person", or something of "spiritual" in us, as the FALSE idea and doctrine of the "immortal soul". So that IsaYah 53:10 was referring to "soul" as "life", "living person", "body+breath of life" of YHWSU (Yahshua), Who physically Died, as an Offering for sin, including also bruising Him, and then He was Resurrected to Spiritual Eternal Life.
                                    > This is incorrect definition of nefesh which is cause by you trying to mix English with Hebrew. Nefesh has many uses including blood. It certainly does not mean human being. The context determines how we interpret the word. Same goes for the term ruwach which can mean air. Again, context. Human being in Hebrew is adam, not nefesh. A general definition of nefesh is life force though we cannot be exact in English.For instance, let us look at a verse with this word.hisday. But first must hesuffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.spiritGen 9:4But flesh with the life (nefesh) thereof, [which is] the blood (dam) thereof, shall ye not eat.Lev 17:14For [it is] the life (nefesh) of all flesh; the blood of it [is] for the life (nefesh) thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life (nefesh) of all
                                    > flesh [is] the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
                                    > I can go on and on. As you can see, John's definition that he got from the Christians does not work. The definition living person will not work in those verses.
                                    > The context of nefesh is always living force when used by itself as it is in Isaiah 53. In all the examples above, it is used by itself which is why life or life force will work. Only when it is coupled with chayah does it refer to a physical body (human or animal) like in Genesis 2. I read the Bible in Hebrew and I see this all the time. You cannot just look up nefesh in a Christian Bible dictionary and think you know what it means. You must read the Bible in Hebrew and then words like that have obvious meanings. As I said above, the definitions of nefesh varies depending on whether the word is by itself or if it is coupled with another word like chayah. In every case where you see a term like living soul, rest assured it is nefesh ha'chayah or something similar.
                                    > Speaking of Isaiah 53:10...let us take a closer look at it. It is always mistranslated. The part that says in the KJV, when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sinis completely wrong. In the Hebrew text, it is
                                    > You said, Also you have mixed the two goats offered on the Day of Atonements. Actually YHWH (Yahweh)'s goat was physically sacrificed, killed, just as YHWSU (Yahshua) was physically sacrificed, killed, while on Azazel's goat (the scapegoat) all the sins were Spiritually put, just as YHWSU (Yahshua) Spiritually bore/bears, and atoned/atones all the sins of the world.
                                    > I did not mix them up. I said the same thing. I said the spiritual body--his true self--was the offering. The physical body it what carried the sins. As I showed above directly from the Torah, the sacrificial lamb on Yom Kippur did not bare/carry the sins. The goat for Azazel carries the sins away (Lev 16:21). The goat for YHWH is called the Olah/Offering and does atonement. The goat for Azazel bares the sins and is sent away.
                                    > And another thing about the goat for Azazel. We read that the goat for Azazel is sent away alive. So, how is it that Yehoshua is killed? Easy, it is because the Israelites sent him away alive and he was not killed by any Israelite. So, if the goat for Azazel is sent away alive in accordance with Torah and is subsequently killed by an foreigner, the Torah is still upheld. This is why the Jews would not kill him themselves. But, because Israel cannot kill the Azazel, they gave him to the heathen to do it.
                                    > Lastly, Carlo said, So, in summary, for me, YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice was BOTH physical AND Spiritual, COMPLETELY fulfilling Passover and Atonements requirements, BOTH physically and Spiritually.
                                    > I am very interested to see you demonstrated verse-by-verse how the physical events of the physical suffering, death and resurrections is directly inline with the physical requirements of Pesach and Yom Kippur. This means I need to see the physical temple, see that the lamb/goat fits all the physical requirements, and all the physical actions like the sprinkling of the blood on the door (Pesach) or on the temple, vessels and people (Yom Kippur). We know he fulfilled them both on the spiritual level. I have done a line for line verification on this.. I am unable to see any connection in the physical. So, if you can prove it on the physical level, I would like to see it. And keep in mind, fulfilling one or two things does not cut it. It must fulfill every jot and tittle of physical Torah requirements.
                                    > That is all for now,
                                    > Yehochanan
                                    >  
                                    >  
                                    >  
                                    >  w:#pn M#) Myv#t-Ma)which is literally--if (Ma)) impart/place/ put (Myv#t)) sin/trespass (M#)) his soul (w:#pn). It is telling us that sins/trespass is placed upon his soul--not his physical body. Again, associating him with baring sin, not being a sacrifice. In Hebrew, Isaiah 53 does not match up with the description of the Yom Kippur sacrificial goat or the Pesach lamb. The same words are not used. However, the same words are use in Isaiah 53 as are used for the goat for Azazel.
                                    > --- In TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com, BYT YHWH bytyhwh@ wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Shalom Yehochanan!
                                    > >  
                                    > > I am Very Glad that you have clarified that the ONLY ASPECT thet you are correcting would be the implication that YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical death would be the spiritual sacrifice of the Passover and Atonements sacrificial lambs, confirming ALL the other physical aspects of His Life.
                                    > >  
                                    > > But even in this way, you are still denying YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical sacrifice, saying that He would NOT fullfil the requirements of YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah), because His physical body was "bruised".
                                    > >  
                                    > > For me, instead, the bruising of His physical body, with wounds and stripes, were part of His physical sacrifice, which ultimate stage was the impalement, with a violente and painful physical death.
                                    > >  
                                    > > Very interestingly it is the reference that NONE of His bones was broken, just as it was the requirement for the Passover lamb, fulfilling also the Scriptural Prophecy for The MashiYah (MessiYah) (Yahchanan / John 19:33-36; Exodus 12:46; Numbers 9:12; Psalm 34:20).
                                    > >  
                                    > > And, just as John Cordaro well explained, "soul" (Hebrew "nephesh") means "life", "living person", "body+breath of life" (also the animals are "souls", "nephesh", living creatures), and NOT spirit (that is Hebrew "ruwach") or "spiritual person", or something of "spiritual" in us, as the FALSE idea and doctrine of the "immortal soul".
                                    > >  
                                    > > So that IsaYah 53:10 was referring to "soul" as "life", "living person", "body+breath of life" of YHWSU (Yahshua), Who physically Died, as an Offering for sin, including also bruising Him, and then He was Resurrected to Spiritual Eternal Life.
                                    > >  
                                    > > IsaYah 53:10 -
                                    > >  10 Yet it pleased YHWH (Yahweh) to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief: when You shall make His soul an Offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the Pleasure of YHWH (Yahweh) shall prosper in His hand.
                                    > >  
                                    > > Please, read my post in which I have quoted ISAYAH CHAPTER 53 with all the references and fulfillments of that Scriptural Prophecy in YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Life.
                                    > >
                                    > > Also you have mixed the two goats offered on the Day of Atonements. Actually YHWH (Yahweh)'s goat was physically sacrificed, killed, just as YHWSU (Yahshua) was physically sacrificed, killed, while on Azazel's goat (the scapegoat) all the sins were Spiritually put, just as YHWSU (Yahshua) Spiritually bore/bears, and atoned/atones all the sins of the world..
                                    > >  
                                    > > About the symbols of unleavened bread and wine, they clearly are the Memorial of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s physical Death, and NOT of His "Spiritual" Death (???), of course.
                                    > >  
                                    > > 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 -
                                    > >  23 For I have received of the Master that which also I delivered unto you, That the Master YHWSU (Yahshua) the same night in which He was betrayed took bread:
                                    > >  24 And when He had given thanks, He brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is My Body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of Me.
                                    > >  25 After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, saying, This cup is the New Yestament in My blood: this do you, as oft as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.
                                    > >  26 For as often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you do shew the Master's Death till He come.
                                    > >  
                                    > > Would His Disciples remember His SPIRITUAL Death (???), or His PHYSICAL Death?
                                    > >  
                                    > > It is extremely obvious that YHWSU (Yahshua) Died PHYSICALLY, and NOT SPIRITUALLY, and He Lives SPIRITUALLY Forever! Or do you believe that He DIED SPIRITUALLY? ??
                                    > >  
                                    > > You have quoted Yahchanan (John) 6:50-52, trying to explain that the bread to eat at YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Memorial, would be symbolic of the "Spiritual" bread, which comes down from Heaven.
                                    > >  
                                    > > Please continue to read, to see what really was the Bread that came down from Heaven...
                                    > >  
                                    > > Yahchanan (John) 6:50-58 -
                                    > >  50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
                                    > >  51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the Bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
                                    > >  52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us His flesh to eat?
                                    > >  53 Then YHWSU (Yahshua) said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
                                    > >  54 Whoso eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has Eternal Life; and I will raise him up at the Last Day.
                                    > >  55 For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
                                    > >  56 He that eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him.
                                    > >  57 As The Living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eats Me, even he shall live by Me.
                                    > >  58 This is that bread which came down from Heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live for ever.
                                    > >  
                                    > > The Bread that came down from Heaven was HIS FLESH!
                                    > > Was YHWSU (Yahshua) saying to physically eat His physical flesh, and to physically drink His physical blood, to have Eternal Life, to live forever?
                                    > > Of course NOT, because that would be absolutely contrary to YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah).
                                    > >  
                                    > > Was YHWSU (Yahshua) saying to physically eat bread, symbolizing His "Spiritual" flesh, and to physically drink wine, symbolizing His "Spiritual" blood, to have Eternal Life, to life forever?
                                    > > Of course NOT, because flesh and blood canNOT inherit The Reign of YHWH (Yahweh) (1 Corinthians 15:50), so that there is NO KIND of flesh and blood in YHWH (Yahweh)'s Reign, including, of course, "Spiritual" flesh and blood.
                                    > >  
                                    > > YHWH (Yahweh) is Spirit a Spirit (Yahchanan / John 4:24), and NOT "Spiritual" flesh and blood, and the SAME is YHWSU (Yahshua) NOW!
                                    > >  
                                    > > Was YHWSU (Yahshua) saying to physically eat bread, symbolizing to Spiritually eat His physical flesh given for the life of the world (that is, the Bread that came down from Heaven - See Yahchanan / John 6:51), and to physically drink wine, symbolizing to Spiritually drink His physical blood shed for our sins, to have Eternal Life, to life forever? YES, I believe so!
                                    > >  
                                    > > Otherwise, please, show me, in The Scriptures, WHERE and HOW would YHWSU (Yahshua) have given His "Spiritual" flesh, and have shed His "Spiritual" blood???
                                    > >  
                                    > > And, please, do NOT tell me that to eat His "Spiritual" flesh, and to drink His "Spiritual" blood would be to follow His Perfect Example, in Keeping YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law (Torah), since all the Fathers from the righteous Abel, and then the Children of Israel ALREADY had YHWH (Yahweh)'s PERFECT Law (Torah) to Follow, LONG before the Coming of YHWSU (Yahshua).
                                    > >  
                                    > > So, in summary, for me, YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice was BOTH physical AND Spiritual, COMPLETELY fulfilling Passover and Atonements requirements, BOTH physically and Spiritually.
                                    > >  
                                    > > Of course, He did NOT Die "Spiritually" - He Died physically, and He Lives Spiritually Forever!
                                    > >  
                                    > > His physical Death and Sacrifice (symbolized from the unleavened bread and wine that we take in His Memorial), just as YHWH (Yahweh)'s Passover and Atonements lambs, covers, atones, takes away our sins, and His Spiritual Life in us, through The Set Apart Spirit, empowers us to Keep YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law, Writing Them on our minds and hearts, following His Perfect Example, to become Perfect just as our Heavenly Father, YHWH (Yahweh) is PERFECT (Mattithyah / Matthew 5:43-48)!
                                    > >  
                                    > > May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless our Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
                                    > >  
                                    > > True Love in HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
                                    > >  
                                    > > Carlo Tognoni
                                    > >  
                                    > > BYT YHWH
                                    > > The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
                                    > > www.byt-yhwh. org
                                    > >  
                                    > > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ===
                                    > >  
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > > From: Yehochanan Ben-Yisrael yehochanan@ ..
                                    > > To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 4:03:20 PM
                                    > > Subject: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Re: Did Messiah Die for Our Sins?
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Romans 14:9For to this end (purpose)
                                    > > The Messiah was had to died suffer and died physically and then resurrect in order to enter to spiritual tabernacle to perform the Eternal Sacrifice. So, the reason he said that Peter could not follow is because flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. So, the issue is not there is performed the Eternal Sacrifice or not. My point is that it did not occur at Calvary. It occurred in the Heavenly Tabernacle just as the Book of Hebrews says it did. This is why he told Peter that he could not go where he was about to go.Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. John 13:36Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
                                    > > You said, Let me ask you how would you "Spiritualize" YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Command, at the Passover time, for the Memorial of His Death?
                                    > > This is correct. It is an abomination to eat physical human flesh. You know that it says this in the Torah.. So YOU KNOW that he was not talking about eating his physical flesh or body. I do not know why you asked me that. I will show that the body that we wanted his followers to focus on was not his physical body. The body that is the focus is the spiritual body which is HIS WORD.
                                    > > Let us take another look at this verse that you are referring to.
                                    > > Would the unleavened bread, that He told His Disciples to eat, symbolize
                                    > > His "Spiritual" body, and NOT His physical body, that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed? Mat 26:26-29¶ And as they were eating, Jesus
                                    > > Yehoshua stated that THE BREAD is his body. He had already taught them that that he is the Bread of God (John 6:33) and the Bread of Life (John 6:35). He taught that this he who eat he that comes to him shall never hunger and he that believeth on him shall never thirst (John 6:35). Let look at the whole verse to get the symbolism.took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, ye all of it; For this is Drinkmy bloodof the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.John 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
                                    > > His word is the bread!
                                    > > For emphasis, this is another verse that show the difference between his physical body (bread) and spiritual body (spiritual bread/the Word of YHWH).He is the Word and he is the Bread and he is the Life and he is the Light. All of these terms are and more are synonymous in the New Testament. It is HIS WORD that gives eternal life. This is what we just read in the previous verse. He never said that his physical body gave eternal life. The bread he is talking about is the spiritual bread, the Word of YHWH. He is not talking about his physical body which is made of earth and is not from Heaven. It is his spiritual body (self) that came from Heaven and YHWH. This is the body he is talking about. John 6:50-51This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down
                                    > >  
                                    > > We know that the bread he spoke of was his body. We also know that he has a spiritual body. So, the question is this. What body came down from heaven? His physical body or his spiritual body?
                                    > > What bread will give eternal life? Will eating his physical flesh give eternal life or will obey his word and believing in the Father give eternal life. If you check the scriptures, the way to eternal life is obeying the word of Messiah and having complete devotion to YHWH. When we search the scriptures-- Tanakh and New Testament--we see that salvation and eternal life is ALWAYS associated with obedience to YHWH and his Torah.. from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.John 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth (obeys) my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Mat 19:16-17¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good?
                                    > > [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
                                    > > This is the hint at symbolic meaning of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. It has nothing to do with a physical ritual or symbolizing the eating of his physical flesh. This means we have his the Torah (Word, Bread, Flesh) in our hearts/minds and we live according to the Word of the Father by means of His Son.
                                    > > The next verse is the biggest proof that he is differentiating between physical bread and spiritual bread. John 6:55-58For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by meThis is that bread : not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
                                    > > In Hebraic thought, bread symbolized wisdom. There are two types of bread. Bread from heaven and bread from earth. Yehoshua is speaking of the bread from heaven--spiritual bread--not the bread that we can touch.
                                    > > You asked, Would the wine, that He told His Disciples to drink, symbolize His "Spiritual" blood, and NOT His physical blood, the Blood of The New Covenant shed for many?
                                    > > Yes. The same thing can be shown with the drink. This next verse will give the context of both the bread and the drink. This next verse will show that both the bread and the drink he was talking about was spiritual.. which came down from heavenMatthew 26:27-29And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new
                                    > > We know that the bread and drink he is talking about is spiritual because he told his disciples that they will drink it with him in His Father's kingdom. The Father's kingdom is not physical. It is spiritual bread and spiritual drink that is in the kingdom of heaven, not physical bread and drink.
                                    > > Now, it this is not proven to you yet. I will not directly show that the New Testament spiritualizes everything including bread and drink. It is this spiritual bread and drink that Yehoshua is talking about. So, it is not me who spiritualizes everything the New Testament does this. Without further day, read this verse.with youin my Father's kingdom.1Corinthian s 10:2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
                                    > > Again, his physical body is not from heaven. Only his spiritual body is. His physical body is clearly said the be earthly from the physical seed of David. Romans 1:3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
                                    > > The bread/body that Yehoshua is talking is about is from heaven. Two different bodies. So, to answer you question--NO- -Yehoshua is not talking about the body that was that was bruised, and by which wounds and stripes we are healed. That was his physical body which is from physical matter, not from heaven. His spiritual body is directly from YHWH as you proved in detail when you showed that Yehoshua did not pre-exist.
                                    > > My last email was too long to show the EVERY DETAIL of the sacrificial system is spiritualized in the New Testament. So, often time, when we see a word that we think I physical, the New Testament gives the REAL meaning which is spiritual. So, again, Yehoshua is talking about the spiritual bread and drink, not physical.
                                    > > You asked, How could ALL that be ONLY Spiritual, and ALL the physical aspects denied?
                                    > > I do not deny any physical aspects. He had to teach physically. He had to demonstrate physically complete obedience, love and devotion to YHWH in the flesh as an perfect example for us. Let us look at a good verse that will clarify this more.Hebrews 5:6-9As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect,he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;We just read above that we only attained eternal life by obeying (hearing) his word and believing in the Father. So, by him suffering physically, this gives his followers the faith that we can obey to the point of death as well. Complete obedience and
                                    > > faith in YHWH is required for His Grace and Salvation. And the Scriptures tell us that he will not make us endure more than we can bear. This is why is says the following.1John 3:6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
                                    > > So, I look to the Scriptures to tell me the reason for his physical suffering and death. It literally tells us. There is no need to interpret. He suffered to give us an example the perfect obedience. And he died so that he could be lord over the living and the dead. Again, nowhere does it say his physical death at Calvary fulfilled Pesach or Yom Kippur. This what done in the spiritual tabernacles which I showed in the two previous posts.
                                    > > Lastly, you said, What I see written in The Scriptures are BOTH Spiritual and physical aspects of YHWSU (Yahshua)'s Sacrifice. And I believe that NEITHER of them have to be denied.
                                    > > Neither do I. However, as I said many times, there is not one place in the Bible that says that his execution at Calvary fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur offering. This was done in the spiritual temple.
                                    > >
                                    > > You are incorrect to say that the physical abuses, humiliation and torment he suffered are called sacrifices in the Bible. It does not say this even once in the Tanakh or New Testament. I literally read every verse in the Tanakh and New Testament detailing the suffering of the Messiah. No once are his sufferings called a sacrifice, atonement or propitiation. Since you called them sacrifices, you naturally assume that I disregard the important of the Messiah suffering and dying physically. I do not. Rather, the Scriptures says the ONLY SACRIFICE was his soul (spiritual body), not his physical body (Isaiah 53:10).
                                    > > The Bible DOES tell us the reason for his suffering and death. I already documented in this and a previous post, the reason for his death (which was not atonement). Apostle Peter tells us the reason that he suffered.Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.1Peter 2:21-25For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray;
                                    > > but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.NOW, I WILL EXPLAIN THE REAL MEANING OF THE PHYSICAL SUFFERING OF YEHOSHUA!!
                                    > > It is unfortunate because with this explanation, I do not even need the words that I said above. Since I spent two hours typing so, I will leave them there for you to read. But, this explanation with explained the meaning of the spiritual sacrifice of Yehoshua and the reason for his physical suffering. I actually should make this post next part of the post a separate post. But, if you are like me, you will read the first one and respond to it when I think that the remained of the post will answer all questions you have. So, consider this post a rough draft of a article I will write in the future on this subject.
                                    > > Recall, I said that the physical body of Yehoshua was never called a sacrifice. Rather, it was his spiritual body.. I also said that Yehoshua fulfilled the Pesach and Yom Kippur sacrifice at the spiritual level and not the physical. In truth, the true sacrifice that made atonement for our sins was his spiritual body. However, his physical body was the scapegoat/Azazel that bared our sins. BOTH GOATS made atonement. The physical body is not a Sacrifice even though it also was required for atonement. We will learn that this in true in the Torah.
                                    > > Keep in mind…the New Testament says that the Messiah died for our sins, was buried, and resurrected according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Therefore, to understand this properly, we must go to the only Scriptures that Paul could have been talking about at that time--the Tanakh. Also remember we are talking about Yehoshua fulfilling the Yom Kippur sacrifice. We know that the purpose of the Yom Kippur rituals was to make atonement for all Israel (every year). Yehoshua accomplished this once and for all. So, all we need to do is go to Leviticus 16, read the whole chapter, and then look in the New Testament to see where everything matches up. Due to the length, I request you open you Bible up to Leviticus 16 since it would be too long to cut and paste to this post. Then I can just refer individual verses.
                                    > > The reason we interpret the physical suffering and death of Yehoshua with the Yom Kippur sacrifice because we assume that it is the sacrificial lamb that bears our sins. This is incorrect. Before I continue on, let us look to the verse that is the source of the confusion. leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Peter 2:24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body ,
                                    > > This is a direct reference to Isaiah 53 which says the same thing about the Messiah--that being--his physical flesh bared our sins. And we know that we are talking about the physical flesh because the spiritual body did not hang on t