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Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Digest Number 346

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  • Darrell Whitfield
    Sorry Carlo and John I can t accept the explaining away of the Scriptures. It is no different than many Christian denominations do with the Scriptures with
    Message 1 of 45 , May 1, 2008
      Sorry Carlo and John I can't accept the explaining away of the Scriptures. It is no different than many Christian denominations do with the Scriptures with Sunday for instance. I accept that Yahu'ah and Yahu'shua are distinct in some ways but they are the ONE Yahu'ah in many other passages. I can't accept it when what you believe is not clearly spelled out in Scripture. You make statements that you can't back up in the text.
       
        I think those that are meant to see will while those that don't won't. I don't claim to understand how it all works but I see plainly from the Semitic New Testament and the Tanach that Yahu'shua is Yahu'ah to the glory of Elohim the Father. Thanks for trying though and I hope all of us believe Yahu'shua is the the Son of the living Elohim which is what counts.
       
      Darrell

    • BYT YHWH
      David, the matter is very simple. I do NOT interpret HEBREWS 1:13, when speaking about PSALM 110:1, as referring to YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua), the Writer of
      Message 45 of 45 , May 25, 2008
        David,
         
        the matter is very simple.
         
        I do NOT interpret HEBREWS 1:13, when speaking about PSALM 110:1, as referring to YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua), the Writer of the Book of Hebrews was Inspired to Understand It so!
         
        I do Believe The New Testament to be Inspired, and, unfortunately, you do NOT. 
         
        That leads you to ERRONEUSLY believe that PSALM 110:1 was referred to King David himself, while it was a Prophecy that King David was Inspired to write about YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah), The SON of YHWH (Yahweh), The Mighty One, Who will be "KING of Kings" (including King David), and "MASTER of Masters" (including King David)!
         
        May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Open your mind, heart, eyes, and ears to Understand It!
         
        In The Name of HIS Beloved SON YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua), The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
         
        Carlo Tognoni
         
        BYT YHWH
        The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
         
        =====================================================================
         


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: David Hakahan <dhakahan@...>
        To: TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 8:54:49 PM
        Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Digest Number 346

        Shabbat Shalom Carlo,
         
        I pray all is well with you and that Father YAHU is blessing you with a wonderful Shabbat.
         
        Carlo, if one interprets Hebrews 1:13, when speaking about Psalm 110:1, as referring to Yahushua, I say that one is wrong.
         
        How can I say that? Please walk through the scriptures with me.
         
        Before we go to verse thirteen, we have to go to the beginning of the chapter. At verse 5 we find:
         
        Heb 1:5
        For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? KJV
         
        Those quotes came from Psalm 2:7 and 2 Sam. 7:14.
         
        So Carlo, let us first go to Psalm 2 to see who is being addressed.
         
        Starting at verse two we find:
         
        Ps 2:2
        The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying, KJV
         
        Who is this anointed that the kings of the earth were against? We know it was King David. (Remember Samuyl was sent to anoint David?). Now that we have established who the anointed the passage is speaking about, let us continue with Psalm 2.
         
        At verse six we find:
         
        Ps 2:6-7
        6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
        7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. KJV
         
        Here we have a reference to the day David was set and established as King at Yahushalom in Zion .
         
        Now let us look at 2 Sam. 7.
         
        At verse four we find:
         
        2 Sam 7:4-5
        4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the Lord came unto Nathan, saying,
        5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the Lord, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? KJV
         
        Verse five clearly establishes who the Prophet Nathan was speaking to; it was none other than King David himself.
         
        Moving on, we find at verse thirteen:
         
        2 Sam 7:13-17
        13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
        14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
        15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
        16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
        17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David. KJV
         
        Verse thirteen sets the stage for what was to occur – the building of a house and the establishment of a kingdom. Then in verse fourteen, Father declared that HE would be the father to the person who built the house and that HE would establish his kingdom. The passage concludes with Nathan confirming what he did and who he spoke to.
         
        According to the historical writings, we know that the son being spoken of was King David’s son, Solomon.
         
        With this knowledge we can go back to Hebrews 1.
         
        Hebrews 1:6-12 are repeats of verses from the Psalms. In these verses, King David gives praise and honour to Father YAHU.
         
        Now we get to verse thirteen. This verse asked a question regarding something King David said at Psalm 110:1.
         
        Heb 1:13
        But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? KJV
         
        Ps 110:1
        The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. KJV
         
        As I said before, the way the first part of Psalm 110:1 is written was the work of a scribe who wrote on behalf of King David, thus the term “The Lord said unto my lord”; meaning “YAHU said unto King David”. Further proof is found at the very next verse, verse two:
         
        Ps 110:2
        The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion : rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. KJV
         
        A few paragraphs earlier I showed that Nathan gave King David a message from Father YAHU. That message told King David that he and a son of his (turned out to be Solomon) were going to reign from Yahushalom at Zion . This is the same Zion being referred to in Psalm 110:2.
         
        Verse two goes on to talk about “ruling in the midst of thine enemies”.
         
        Folks, which king had more enemies around him than King David? Yet he ruled and subdued all of them so that when his son Solomon took the throne, there was peace throughout.
         
        At the same time King David was subduing the nations around him, he was also showing how wonderful reverencing Father YAHU can be, so that as it says in verse three – the people were willing.
         
        Folks, even to this day, we talk about our great forefather, King David and the way he walked with Father YAHU.
         
        So Carlo and everyone, it doesn’t matter which way one cuts it, Psalm 110:1 was speaking of no one else but King David.
         
         
        Carlo, in response to your question:
         
        Or would you claim that King David has been sitting at the right hand of YHWH (Yahweh) from his death?
         
        No, I was not saying that King David is or has been sitting at the right hand of Father YAHU. If you remember, I have previously shown two prophets who said that Father YAHU would raise up King David..
         
        If HE is going to raise King David up, it would of a necessity mean that King David is not sitting at HIS right hand right now.
         
         


        BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@yahoo. com> wrote:
        David,
         
        you have answered to Roger that Psalm 110:1 has nothing to do with YHSU/YHWSU (Yahshua/Yahwshua) .
         
        That is incorrect, since Hebrews 1:13, referring to YHSU/YHWSU (Yahshua/Yahwshua) , and quoting Psalm 110:1, clearly says -
         "13 But to which of the Malakim said He at any time, Sit on My right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool?".
         
        That was NOT referred to King David, as you have intepreted that a scribe would have written of his master. That was a Prophecy on The Son of YHWH (Yaweh), The MashiYah (MessiYah) that would come.
         
        Or would you claim that King David has been sitting at the right hand of YHWH (Yahweh) from his death?
         
        That would be UNSCRIPTURAL, since the dead, including King David, remain unconscious in their sepulchre, until the resurrection.
         
        Acts 2:29-36 -
         29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
         30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that The mighty One had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up MashiYah (MessiYah) to sit on his throne;
         31 He seeing this before spake of the Resurrection of MashiYah (MessiYah), that His soul was not left in grave, neither His flesh did see corruption.
         32 This YHSU/YHWSU (Yahshua/Yahwshua) has The Mighty One raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
         33 Therefore being by the right hand of Mighty One exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of The Set Apart Spirit, He has shed forth this, which you now see and hear.
         34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he says himself, YHWH (Yahweh) said unto my Master, Sit you on my right hand,
         35 Until I make Your foes Your footstool.
         36 Therefore let all the House of Israel know assuredly, that The Mighty One has made that Same YHSU/YHWSU (Yahshua/Yahwshua) , Whom you have impaled, both Master and MashiYah (MessiYah)".
         
        As you can see above, there were also at that time some people that erroneously believed King David to go to Heaven at the right hand of YHWH (Yahweh), and to be The MashiYah (MessiYah).

        IF you believe that The New Testament is Inspired, then the Apostle Kepha (Peter) clearly said that Psalm 110:1 was referred to, and fullfilled from YHSU/YHWSU (Yahshua/Yahwshua) , and NOT from King David, that is still in the grave, waiting for the resurrection, and that has written such Prophecies on The MashiYah (MessiYah), YHSU/YHWSU (Yahshua/Yahwshua) , The SON Of YHWH (Yahweh)! 
         
        May our Heavenly Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless your Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
         
        In The Name of HIS Beloved Son YHSU/YHWSU (Yahshua/Yahwshua) , The TRUE MashiYah (MessiYah),
         
        Carlo Tognoni
         
        BYT YHWH
        The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
         
        ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ===
         
         


         
        ----- Original Message ----
        From: David Hakahan <dhakahan@yahoo. com>
        To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
        Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 7:54:59 PM
        Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Digest Number 346

        Shabbat Shalom Roger
         
        In this response I will address your reference to Psalms 110:1.
         
        When Yahushua was asked the question, if you will look carefully at the passage again, you will see that he did not give an answer. What he did was ask a question of his own. When the Scribes and Pharisees failed to give an answer to his question, he told them he would not answer theirs.
         
        With that understanding, let us look at the verse again.
         
        Ps 110:1
        110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. KJV
         
        Roger, as with most of the passages in the "Bible", what we read is someone writing on behalf of another. The instant passage is one such case.
         
        This passage was not written directly by King David. This was a scribe's rendition of King David's words.
         
        I will paraphrase the verse for better understanding.
         
        Ps 110:1
        YAHU {The Lord} said unto King David {my Lord}; Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
        I pray that you can see that this verse had nothing to do with Yahushua.
         
        Now take a look at these supporting verses:
         
        Jer 30:9
        But they shall serve YAHU {the Lord} their Father {God}, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
         
        Hos 3:5
        Afterward shall the children of Isyahul {Israel} return, and seek YAHU {the Lord} their Father {God}, and David their king; and shall reverence {fear} YAHU {the Lord} in the latter days.
         
        I think you will acknowledge that at the time Yeremyahu and Hosheyahu were prophesying, King David was long dead and buried. Yet it is reported that they said that YAHU was going to raise King David (Yeremyahu) so that the Children of Isyahul could seek him out (Hosheyahu).
         
        Before I conclude, let me first address the last part of your response where you said:
         
        "He forgave sin and allowed people to worish Him.  Only YHWH can forgive sin and is worhty of worship. "
         
        Can you see that you are contradicting yourself?
         
        You said that "he" (I take this to be Yahushua) forgave sin and allowed people to worship him and immediately turn around and say that only "YHWH" can forgive sin and is worthy of worship.
         
         
        May Father YAHU bless you and yours.
         
        Shabbat Shalom
        David Hakahan

        roger anderson <gideonwoodcutter@ yahoo.com> wrote:
        Shalom David;    The scripture cannot be broken  Miriam was a righteous person.  And the question about being of the line of David..  Yahushua was asked that question by the  Scribes and Pharisees..  And you won't like His answer.  He quoted ps 110:1 "YHWH said to my adon (master)sit at My right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."  He told them of His pre-existence.  Who is sitting at YHWH's right hand?   Yahushua has been at the right hand of the father since before the world began,just as He said in John 17:5.  Yahushua was injected into the womb of Miriam as an ovum.  He forgave sin and allowed people to worish Him.  Only YHWH can forgive sin and is worhty of worship.  Now He is back at His Fathers side.  Shabbat Shalom   Roger
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
        sDavid Hakahan <dhakahan@yahoo. com> wrote:
        Shabbat Shalom Everyone
         
        I pray Roger and Carlo won't mind me injecting a few words into the discussion they are having.
         
        Roger, if I understand correctly, you are of the opinion that the Father and the son are ONE (as in one and the same person). Please forgive me if I misunderstand.
         
        If however my understanding is correct, I draw your attention to the passage you quoted below "John 14:28 "....for My Father is GREATER than I.."
         
        Roger - If they are one and the same person, how can there be a greater one?
         
        The word greater is always used to compare two separate entities.
         
         
         
        Roger, you asked Carlo if he believed the Messiah or not, so let me ask you one as well.
         
        It is said that Miriam said that she never had sex with any man (including Yahseph) prior to Yahushua's birth. If this statement is true, Yahseph was not Yahushua's father.
         
        It is also said that Yahushua said that he was of the seed of King David.
         
        Now Roger, Which is the truth?
         
         
        Let me say this before you answer -
         
        If you say Miriam was not telling the truth, then she was not the righteous person she is made out to be and Yahushua cannot be considered as imperfect because he would be Yahseph's (an earthly man) son.
         
        If you say Yahushua was not telling the truth, then, how can you ask Carlo if he does not believe what Yahushua said. As well, Yahushua would have lied and therefore he would no longer be the imperfect person he is supposed to be.
         
        So Roger, considering the two scenarios above, what is your response?
         
        Shabbat Shalom
        David Hakahan 

        roger anderson <gideonwoodcutter@ yahoo.com> wrote:
        Again,don't believe me.  But, will you believe  the words of Yahushua?  John 14:28"...... for My Father is GREATER than I."  Of course The Father is greater in everything.  John 17:3"And this is eternal life that they might know You,the only TRUE ELOHIM,and Yahushua HA Moshiach,whom YOU have sent."  In my humble opinion that puts the Father on a pretty high plane.  I must ask again.  Do you believe the words of the Messiah or not.  It's a bad position to be in to go against the Savior of the world.  My regards and sympathy,  Roger

        BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@yahoo. com> wrote:
        Roger,
         
        so now you say that YWHSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua) is LESSER in Authority, but EQUAL in the sense of being Divine.
         
        That is very confusing speaking.
         
        According to what you have written in previous posts, you said that Father YHWH (Yahweh) would have bought forth "The Word of YHWH" from His Own Essence.
         
        It is established that Father YHWH (Yahweh) is GREATER (NOT "Equal"), than YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua), according to His Own Words. 
         
        You claim that He is GREATER only in Authority, while I say that HE is GREATER in EVERYTHING, being Father YHWH (Yahweh) THE ONLY YHWH (Yahweh), according to the "Shema" (Deuteronomy 6:4), with NONE ELSE with and beside HIM ALONE (Deuteronomy 32:39-40; Psalm 83:18; Isayah 45:5-6; etc.)!
         
        About Yahchanan (John) 8:23, YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua) was saying to His Disciples that His Father was in Heaven, and that He came from there.. He was NOT saying that He Pre-Existed there!
         
        About Yahchanan (John) 10:30, He clearly said that He and His Father are ONE in Will and Purpose, because He came to Do the Work in His Father's Name, to gather His Disciples that The Father Called Out (Verses 24 to 29). In fact, in Verse 29, He clearly said, "My Father, Which gave them Me, is Greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand".
         
        As I trust you can see, it is NOT a matter to BELIEVE or not YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua)'s Words, but it is a matter to CORRECTLY UNDERSTAND Them or not!
         
        It is evident that, because of our DIFFERENT positions on this Issue, at least one of us (if not even both of us) Understand Them INCORRECTLY, but ONLY one of us, if the case, do Understand Them CORRECTLY.
         
        I repeat again: YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua) surely said that His Father was YHWH (Yahweh), and that He Came from Him, but He NEVER said to be Pre-Existed as a Divine Being, BEFORE His Human Birth.
         
        You are ONLY erroneously interpreting His Words, reading your preconceived idea of the Pre-Existence there.
         
        Such doctrine is very old, being rooted in the SAME premise used from the Catholic and Christian Churches for centuries, to support their doctrine of trinity.
         
        You are DENYING the REPEATED Declarations of Father YHWH (Yahweh) to be ONE YHWH (Yahweh), with NONE ELSE Deity WITH AND BESIDE HIM ALONE (Deuteronomy 6:4; 32:39-40; Psalm 83:18; Isayah 45:5-6; etc.).
         
        YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua) did NOT, since He clearly said:
        And this is Eternal Life, that they might know you THE ONLY TRUE MIGHTY ONE, and YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua) MashiYah (MessiYah), Whom You have Sent" (Yahchanan / John 17:3).
         
        "YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua) said to her, 'Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My Mighty One, and your Mighty One" (Yahchanan / John 20:17)
         
        "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the Temple of My Mighty One, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My Mighty One, and the name of the city of My Mighty One, which is YHWH-SHAMMAH (New Yerusalem), which comes down out of Heaven from My Mighty One: and I will write upon him My New Name" (Revelation 3:12)
        .
        YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua) clearly said, ACCORDING TO THE "SHEMA", that Father YHWH (Yahweh) is THE ONLY TRUE MIGHTY ONE, and HIS MIGHTY ONE!
         
        Could it MORE CLEAR than that???
         
        May our Father YHWH (Yahweh), THE ONLY TRUE MIGHTY ONE, Open your mind, heart, eyes, and ears to Understand It!
         
        In The Name of HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua),
         
        Carlo Tognoni
         
        BYT YHWH
        The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
         
        ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ===
         
          
         

         
        .


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: roger anderson <gideonwoodcutter@ yahoo.com>
        To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 5:48:10 AM
        Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Digest Number 346

        Shalom;  I want to clear up my belief on that Yahushua or the Word of YHWH was equal with Abba YHWH.  Equal in the sense of being divine,but lesser in authority.  John 8:23 " And Yahushua said to them,Ye are from beneath I am from above. Ye are of this world. I am not of this world."  If He were human He would be of this world, as you and I are.  John 10:30 I and My Father are ONE.."    John 14:28......I go unto my Father: for my Father is GREATER than I."  Very clear.  Unlike you,I BELIEVE the words of the Messiah.  You keep saying you believe the renewed covenant but keep denying what it says.  And espicially the words of the Messiah.  Again these quotes are not my words! !  They are the words of the Savior of the world.  Open your mind to the truth.  These quotes from Yahushua are not mis translations.  They are the clear words of our Savior.

        BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@yahoo. com> wrote:
        Roger,
         
        since you are assuming that an IMMORTAL Spirit Being, that would be EQUAL with The Mighty One, as you believe that YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua) was before His human birth, would have given up His IMMORTALITY, becoming a physical MORTAL human being, what would be such "big risk" that you are speaking about? Would His Sacrifice be so special because it would be hard for an IMMORTAL Spirit Being to have accepted to renounce to His Status for a while, for a few years, and to live as a physical mortal human being, and to be killed and die, being sure to return to His previous Status of IMMORTAL Spirit Being? Could He fail His Mission, and become prey of Satan's temptations?
         
        It would make NO SENSE, and a really "fake" temptation that Satan would offer ALL the Reigns of the world, and their glory, if He would fall down and worship Satan, IF He would be EQUAL with YHWH (Yahweh), possessing ALL the Universe!
         
        It would be A REAL tempation to offer Him ALL the Reigns of the world, and their glory, instead, if YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua) was THE SON OF MAN, just as He was, after having tempted Him as THE SON OF THE MIGHTY ONE (See Mattihtyah / Matthew Chapter 4 and Luke Chapter 4)!
         
        NO, YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua)'s Sacrifice was SO SPECIAL because He was A MAN (THE SON OF MAN), just as we are, but He was willing to Do HIS Father YHWH (Yahweh)'s Will DURING ALL HIS HUMAN LIFE, NEVER sinning, ALWAYS keeping HIS Father YHWH (Yahweh)'s Law ("Torah"), and enduring, for His Righeousness, all kind of persecutions and scorns until the End of His Human Life, SACRIFICING HIMSELF FOR US, even if He did NOTHING WRONG to be worth to be killed!
         
        That is the reason why, continuing reading in Philippians Chapter 2, you will read that YHWH (Yahweh) has HIGHLY EXALTED His Son, and GIVEN Him a Name Which is above Every Name - The Word of YHWH (Yahweh) is The Name, The Father's Name, that also us will have, if we endure until th end (Revelation 19:11-13; 3:12)!
         
        Philippians 2:9-11 -
         9 Wherefore The Might One also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a Name Which is above Every Name:
         10 That at the Name of YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua) every knee should bow, of things in Heaven, and things in Earth, and things under the Earth;
         11 And that every tongue should confess that YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua) MashiYah (MessiYah) is Master, to the Glory of The Mighty One Father.
           
        You believe that would mean that He RETURNED to His previous Status of IMMORTAL Spirit Being, while I believe that He was HIGHLY EXALTED to the Status of IMMORTAL Spirit Being, Over Every Creature, to the Glory of The Mighty One, His Father YHWH (Yahweh)!
         
        About a understanding of the meaning of Philippians 2:5-8, DIFFERENT than yours, please read, without any preconceived ideas of Pre-Existence, the Paragraph "The Form of Elohim" (that I had already posted some days ago, and I am posting again here below, for your convenience) , taken from the Scriptural Study "Did Our Savior Pre-Exist?".
         
        May our Creator and Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless your Insight of HIS Will and Word, THE TRUTH!
         
        In The Name of HIS Beloved Son YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua),
         
        Carlo Tognoni
         
        BYT YHWH
        The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
         
        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
         
        The Form of Elohim
        This brings us to the most difficult passage of Scripture to understand. The key to understanding it lies in your stand concerning the pre-existence doctrine as a whole. If you reject what has been written up to this point and continue to hold unto a belief in the pre-existence, you will most likely fail to comprehend this last passage as well. Those that are not locked into a preconceived idea will grasp its meaning much easier.The passage in question, Ph.2:5-9, reads as follows; "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Messiah Yahshua: Who, being in the form of Elohim, thought it not robbery to be equal with Yahweh: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore Yahweh also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:" (KJV)

        To begin with, what does verse 5 mean? Does it mean that we should have the same mind as Messiah Yahshua before or after his earthly birth? Paul is telling the Philippians to have the same mind as
        Messiah Yahshua . If Yahshua pre-existed, he certainly did not carry the name Messiah Yahshua. That name can only be applied to the historical Yahshua, not the being who supposedly pre-existed as "the Word." Yahshua did not officially become "the Anointed" or "the Messiah" until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38).

        As a child, Yahshua "waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him" (Lu.2:40). Even at that time Yahshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Lu.2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was "in the form (or likeness) of Elohim." It does not say he "was Elohim." Yet, Yahshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself Yahweh's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (Jn.10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Ph.2:6 as follows; "Who, though he was in the form of [Elohim], did not count equality with [Yahweh] a thing to be grasped."

        Yahshua did not strip himself of any pre-existent power or glory. He simply humbled himself and made himself of no reputation even though he was far more knowledgeable and powerful than any of his contemporaries. Instead of glorifying himself and expecting others to serve him, he chose to become a servant. He became like most men, common and unassuming as compared to the politically powerful and famous.

        In addition to not exalting himself in the eyes of man, he further humbled himself by becoming totally obedient to the laws and will of His Father Yahweh. As a reward for his obedience, Yahweh has highly exalted him. A future exaltation will be the reward of all true believers if they, too, will humble themselves as Yahshua did.
        This study has only touched upon certain aspects of the pre-existence doctrine. For additional information, please see the study entitled "Yahshua the Messiah is not Almighty Yahweh." That study will explain many other verses used to support the pre-existence. Among the verses discussed are; Ge.1:26; 19:24; Ps.110:5; Ze.12:10; Mi.5:2; Jn.1:1,10; 8:58; 12:37-41; Acts 20:28; 1 Cor.8:6; 10:4; Eph.3:9; Col.1:16; 1 Tim.3:16; and Heb.1:2. The study also explains such terms as elohim and echad.
        ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
         
         


         
        ----- Original Message ----
        From: roger anderson <gideonwoodcutter@ yahoo.com>
        To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
        Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 5:58:40 PM
        Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Digest Number 346

        Again Phil 2:5-8 He gave of his divinity and became LIKE a man.  He wasn't divine on the earth.  It was a big risk,thats why His sacrifice is so special.  As I said He couldnt be part human as we are human because we are infected with sin !  He was sinless.  I know it is so simple its hard to believe, but true.  I cant remember chapter and verse but it is stated in the Brit Chadasah that He divested Himself of is glory and offered Himself as a perfect sacrifice for our sin.   Roger

        Shalom Roger!
         
        The MashiYah (MessiYa) Came from The Father, YHWH (Yahweh), through His Set Apart Spirit, that Begot Him in the womb of a virgin woman..
         
        He was 100% human, because that was YHWH (Yahweh)'s Will.
         
        Are you limiting the Power of YHWH (Yahweh), and HIS Set Apart Spirit?
         
        Just reversing the question: If the MashiYah (MessiYah) was "half divine", as you say, why did He Die?
         
        He had to be HUMAN, MORTAL, to Die, doesn't?
         
        See how complicate things get when The Truth gets twisted!
         
        May our Father YHWH (Yahweh) Bless your Insight of HIS Will, and Word, THE TRUTH!
         
        In The Name of HIS Son YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua),
         
        Carlo Tognoni
         
        BYT YHWH
        The Community of Yahwe for The Disciples of Yahshua
         
        ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =========
         
         


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: roger anderson <gideonwoodcutter@ yahoo.com>
        To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
        Sent: Friday, May 9, 2008 3:10:38 PM
        Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Digest Number 346

        Shalom Carlo;  I have been gone all week earning a living,  I see there are many messages on my computer.  I have just one question for you.  If the Messiah came from the father at His birth on earth,how can He be 100% human,as you say?  In your own words He must be half divine. See how complicated things get when the truth gets twisted! !   roger

        BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@yahoo. com> wrote:
        Roger,
         
        First, my message was clearly addressed to Jim, and NOT to you!
         
        Second, I am not calling The Savior a liar, but Jim's interpretation a false doctrine!
         
        Third, The MessiYah NEVER said that He was with The Father before the Creation of the world (IN THE FORM OF ANOTHER SPIRITUAL BEING), since that would contradict The Scriptures that clearly say that YHWH (Yahweh) is ONE YHWH (Yahweh), from the Everlasting to Everlasting, and there was NO ONE with, and beside HIM (Deuteronomy 6:4; 32:39-40; Isayah 45:5-6; etc.)!
         
        The MessiYah was INSIDE HIS Father, in His "loins", BEFORE to be born as a Human Being (THE SON OF MAN), since He was THE WORD / PLAN / LOGOS made FLESH!
         
        You are interpreting The Scriptures, reading what is NOT there, and so arriving to ERRONEOUS conclusions.
         
        May YHWH (Yahweh) Bless your Understanding!
         
        In The Name of HIS Son YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua),
         
        Carlo Tognoni
         
        BYT YHWH
        The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
         
        ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
         
         
         


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: roger anderson <gideonwoodcutter@ yahoo.com>
        To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
        Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 6:31:33 AM
        Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Digest Number 346

        I just quoted the words of the Messiah! !  You are calling the Savior a liar ! !  You folks can twist scripture any way you want.   The Messiah Yahushua is clear,He said He was with the Father before the creation of the world.  You better look into your beliefs a little deeper.  Shabbat Shalom    Roger

        BYT YHWH <bytyhwh@yahoo. com> wrote:
        Jim,
         
        you are clearly spreading a FALSE doctrine here!
         
        The Scriptures clearly say that YHWH (Yahweh) is ONE Eternal Being, FROM the EVERLASTING to the EVERLASTING, and there was NO OTHER WITH / BESIDE HIMSELF ONLY!
         
        Deuteronomy 6:4 -
        Hear, O Israel: YHWH (Yahweh) our Mighty One is ONE YHWH (Yahweh).
         
        Deuteronomy 32:39-40 -
         39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
         40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
         
        Isayah 45:5-6 -
         5 I am YHWH (Yahweh), and there is none else, there is no god beside me: I girded you, though you had not known Me:
         6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me. I am YHWH (Yahweh), and there is none else.
         
         
        There were NOT Two YHWH (Yahweh) in the Beginning, and One of Them took off His Set Apart Spirit, becoming the Archangel Michael, and The Set Apart Spirit becoming a Third Person of a Trinity, as you WRONGLY stated!
         
        As I have ALREADY told you, that is ANOTHER FORM of the SAME Babylonian doctrine, spread from the Catholicism and Christianity during the ages, with the adding of the vision and dream of your own mind!
         
        May Father YHWH (Yahweh) Open your mind, heart, eyes, and ears to Understand It!
         
        In The Name of HIS Son YHWSU (Yahshua / Yahwshua),
         
        Carlo Tognoni
         
        BYT YHWH
        The Community of Yahweh for The Disciples of Yahshua
         
        ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
         
         


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: JimT. <brotherjim01@ yahoo.com>
        To: TheTrueSabbathsAndN ewMoons@yahoogro ups.com
        Sent: Friday, May 2, 2008 8:51:10 PM
        Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAnd NewMoons] Digest Number 346

        Hi there, dear friends!

        One of the most dramatic wonders about mankind, is that "war" spoken of as such by carnal mankind, between women and men!  Why is there a war?  Mainly because women have the spirit of women, and men have the spirit of men, and so I believe God's desire is that man and woman should learn to love all of the differences between them, marry when it is proper time, and live happily together, learning more of one another throughout life, and learning with every nuance, to love more!

        Now, God is like this as well, and this is the reason why mankind is like God!   God said, "Let us make man in our image!"  This was most definitely, the conversation of Two Gods speaking, One to the Other!  Now, before you call me a heretic, remember the words spoken -- make man in our image! 

        Does the Father God have a Spirit, likened unto the spirit women and man have?  Surely God has a Spirit, which is the main reason that in the beginning, Each could be omnipresent -- through Their Holy Spirits!  But you have to realize that only One of the Two Gods, changed into another Being!  We can ask why that occurred, and my answer is that unless One changed, how would their creation ever be able to get along with them?  Their individual brilliance was brighter than any sun, and so if neither of them changed, what would Lucifer have done, when the spirit/breath was breathed into him, if he opened his eyes, and all he could do was try to shield his eyes with the whole hands, the brightness was so very bright?  Can you not see clearly, One of them, had to choose to change His Being, because for creation to go right [at least from the start], One needed to change, and that One of the Two, we call the Son, because He chose to put off His Holy Spirit, and then Him we call the Father, begat Him as Michael, the Leader of the LORD's Hosts, and as such, Michael could explain to all the angels who were created, Who He was, and Who the Father was!  Does not this finally make a bit of sense to you?

        Now, trouble between man and God, is that the Spirit of God, has an intrinsic capacity within God, which is unlike a created being, and so when Him Who became Michael, put off His Holy Spirit, that Spirit became another Being, because divinity needs personality -- it's not like our spirits!  It is all the rest perfectly clear now:  The Holy Spirit we speak of as being One within a Triune Godhead, is the Holy Spirit which Michael put off! 

        Now, Michael understood He would have to become Jesus/Yeshua due to sin, and sadly, what also happened, was that if Yeshua actually went all the way into Second Death with humanity 'in Him,' He would never again be able to become One with His Holy Spirit, as He was before creation, and so presently, we only see the Second God, in Two Forms, and those Two Forms shall never come together as One ever again!  What is the punishment of sin?  Eternal death and separation from God forever!   That is the very same punishment Yeshua chose to take, because of His love for His rebellious creation, and the Father loved us so much, He allowed Yeshua to choose if that was His desire -- to become no more fully God, in saving mankind!  Both these Gods had a wonderfully unique relationship together before anything was created, and I would say they didn't even speak about creating anything for a very very long time, because they both were fully equal, and they knew all things, AND they both had wonderful agapao for One Another -- a love I don't as yet understand the fullness of for a human, let alone for God!!  How must they have loved One Another as they the were!  But, if they would ever share their lives with others, they both knew that forever, they would never again have the communication they then had, and loved to have!

        "[How is it, there are so very few of us over two thousand years, haven't been able to see these words for all their incredibly love-filled worth]Who, being in the form of God [There are no reasons we should fail of understanding these words!  Scripture tells us in Romans Jesus was in the form of man, and we receive that, but when it is said 'Being in the form of God,' we have to somehow rewrite the whole Book!  Him we today call Jesus, was once totally equal to Him we call Father!  But, He gave up His Holy Spirit, and even while doing that, with Father begetting Him as Michael, He knew there would be a time, when He would have a completely different association with the Father than He had at the beginning!  That different association would be because of agape, and would mean that there would no longer be a full equality between Them, BUT the Holy Spirit He put off, would be shared among the righteous from Earth {'Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature {this here is speaking of our partaking in the Holy Spirit of Him we call the Son -- forever}, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust' (2Peter 1: 14, KJV)}], thought it not robbery to be equal with God:  7: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:  8: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross [See how everything here stops at the cross?  After Jesus went into Second Death, so that Father could call Him, and all of those who were 'in Him,' out of Second Death into eternal life, if we overcome until the end, Jesus Whole Essence then forever changes too!  This is why the words of 1Corinthians 15, are so strange to all of us, who know that most definitely, Jesus was fully God!  You see, now, Father shares His Holy Spirit with Jesus, and Jesus is therefore indeed God, but He is no longer God Almighty, which He once was, together with the Father, before anything was created!  This is why these words are indeed true, but we need to know why:  'Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  25: For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  26: The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.  27: For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  28: And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all' (1Corinthians 15: 24-28, KJV)  ]" (Philippians 2: 6-8, KJV, emphasis & notation mine)!  I pray this why, will aid you as you prayerfully consider these words!


        Agape,

        JimT



        roger anderson <gideonwoodcutter@ yahoo.com> wrote:
        Shalom all;  I agree with Darrell exactly.  The reason YHWH is the father of Yahshua is Yahshua came out of YHWH own essence.  All else was created by the spirit of YHWH.  Yahshua was brought forth from YHWH that is clearly stated in scripture.  There are a few of us that will not let this blatant falsehood of the nature of YHWH and YHWSA  go unchallenged.  Re-read the account of Moses at the burning bush.  The Angel of YHWH just starts being addressed as YHWH in a few versess.  Also Jer ch 1, the first few verses.  The Word of YHWH again morphs into YHWH.  These are not mis-translations.  I will say again we must look at the totality of scripture and most importantly PRAY for wisdom to see what is being said.  The word is a mystery after all and not everyone is chosen to know the truth.   Shalom Aliechem

        Darrell Whitfield <echadone@yahoo.. com> wrote:
        Sorry Carlo and John I can't accept the explaining away of the Scriptures. It is no different than many Christian denominations do with the Scriptures with Sunday for instance. I accept that Yahu'ah and Yahu'shua are distinct in some ways but they are the ONE Yahu'ah in many other passages. I can't accept it when what you believe is not clearly spelled out in Scripture. You make statements that you can't back up in the text.
         
          I think those that are meant to see will while those that don't won't. I don't claim to understand how it all works but I see plainly from the Semitic New Testament and the Tanach that Yahu'shua is Yahu'ah to the glory of Elohim the Father. Thanks for trying though and I hope all of us believe Yahu'shua is the the Son of the living Elohim which is what counts.
         
        Darrell





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        2 Corinthians

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