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Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?

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  • Sylvia Rognstad
    Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they should be able to do their own research and find the pictures they need. If they don t have any
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 16, 2008
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      Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they should be
      able to do their own research and find the pictures they need. If they
      don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if I
      sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well trained and
      competent designers around who would love to have more design jobs. Of
      course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
      directors think they can achieve a well designed production without
      paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.

      Sylrog

      On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:

      > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
      > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen CD roms
      > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using vintage
      > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where to find
      > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the directors?
      > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable trying to
      > sketch their ideas.
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Poppy Shell
      ALOHA FROM HAWAII: I don t know what time period you are working on, but for anything American for the last few hundred years, I often visit the NYC library
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 16, 2008
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        ALOHA FROM HAWAII: I don't know what time period you are working on, but for anything American for the last few hundred years, I often visit the NYC library web site that has hundreds of drawings and photos. Here is the web site: http://digital.nypl.org/mmpco/ I think it's great you have volunteers willing to help out your community theater, professionals aren't available everywhere (like here in the middle of the Pacific Ocean) and volunteers can become very talented through their own efforts. It reminds me of when I was a home-birth midwife in Oregon back in the 1980's. Others knew I had the potential and interest to be a midwife and then I learned by working with trained midwives as an apprentice and then assistant. I spent years studying on my own, attending workshops and seminars, reading and researching and getting experience attending births. BUT: I didn't go to college and many Nurse-midwives looked down on me and other ladies like me. Fast-forward to when I moved to Hawaii 15 yrs ago: I became a costumer because others knew I had the potential and interest to make theater costumes and then I learned by watching others, researching, reading and getting experience jumping in and making costumes. I hope others aren't looking down on me because I didn't attend college to become a designer, sewing, and maker of costumes. I'm the main costumer on my island and have costumed dozens of plays for hundreds of actors. I can change almost any piece of clothing into a costume, as well as make one from scratch using my own design or a commercial pattern - and i do all this on a very VERY small budget. I can turn old sheets and funky curtains into amazing costumes. I've even used Christmas placemats to enhance a costume! There are many ways, roads and paths to becoming what we are interested in or meant to do. Some of your volunteers may be a great costumer in the making. Well, that's my soapbox for the day. Poppy on Kauai


        To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.comFrom: avgsuperheroine@...: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:32:24 +0000Subject: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?




        I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen CD roms with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using vintage pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where to find photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the directors? Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable trying to sketch their ideas.






        _________________________________________________________________
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bonnie
        Thank you so much for the website link and the info you gave. I agree with many of your statements. However, to respond to some of the other statements made,
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 16, 2008
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          Thank you so much for the website link and the info you gave. I
          agree with many of your statements.

          However, to respond to some of the other statements made, we are a
          very well accomplished and well-respected Community Theatre in the
          midwest, a rural town of only 11,000 people. A large part of our
          theatre's mission is to provide educational experiences for people in
          all aspects of the theatre. Everyone (I mean everyone from directors
          to box office to stage managers and actors) who works on our shows is
          a volunteer.

          I agree, people of all walks of life and all stations in life should
          have the opportunity to enjoy the creative process that working on a
          show provides. Even in our children's theatre programs, we teach
          children how to build sets and work on the lighting design, further
          promoting the concept that everyone's work is important and valuable-
          from the actors on stage to the people who help hang flyers around
          town. I'm more than happy to assist our volunteers in trying
          something new, even if that means more research and work on my part.

          Had that one person fifteen years ago not given me the chance to work
          behind the scenes as a teenager with no real training, I never would
          have found my true calling in life.
        • Mom IS my real name
          The Tom Tierney paperdolls from Dover books are fun to have on hand. There s a collection for almost any subject you can imagine.
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 16, 2008
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            The Tom Tierney paperdolls from Dover books are fun to have on hand.
            There's a collection for almost any subject you can imagine.

            http://store.doverpublications.com/tierney5.html

            Janelle
          • Mom IS my real name
            I just found this page that has links to samples of the paperdolls. Handy if you don t know if they re really something you want to invest in:
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 16, 2008
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              I just found this page that has links to samples of the paperdolls.
              Handy if you don't know if they're really something you want to invest
              in:

              http://www.doverpublications.com/paperdolls/samples.html



              --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "Mom IS my real name"
              <jeozeran@...> wrote:
              >
              > The Tom Tierney paperdolls from Dover books are fun to have on hand.
              > There's a collection for almost any subject you can imagine.
              >
              > http://store.doverpublications.com/tierney5.html
              >
              > Janelle
              >
            • Sylvia Rognstad
              I can understand actors working for free in community theatres because rehearsals are held at night so they can hold down full time jobs. But the costume
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 16, 2008
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                I can understand actors working for free in community theatres because
                rehearsals are held at night so they can hold down full time jobs. But
                the costume design and building of a play is usually a full time job,
                especially with a large cast. I used to work for a community theatre.
                It was my second paid job and I was an intern. I got paid peanuts but
                it was in the Mid West and I managed to find an apartment for $100 a
                month, so I barely squeaked by. But I was working every day from 9am
                to about 10 or 11 at night. I didn't have a day off until after my
                first show opened.

                So I think it is unreasonable for anyone to expect the costume design
                position to be on a volunteer basis. Just my .02.

                Sylrog

                On Jan 16, 2008, at 3:55 PM, Bonnie wrote:

                > Thank you so much for the website link and the info you gave. I
                > agree with many of your statements.
                >
                > However, to respond to some of the other statements made, we are a
                > very well accomplished and well-respected Community Theatre in the
                > midwest, a rural town of only 11,000 people. A large part of our
                > theatre's mission is to provide educational experiences for people in
                > all aspects of the theatre. Everyone (I mean everyone from directors
                > to box office to stage managers and actors) who works on our shows is
                > a volunteer.
                >
                > I agree, people of all walks of life and all stations in life should
                > have the opportunity to enjoy the creative process that working on a
                > show provides. Even in our children's theatre programs, we teach
                > children how to build sets and work on the lighting design, further
                > promoting the concept that everyone's work is important and valuable-
                > from the actors on stage to the people who help hang flyers around
                > town. I'm more than happy to assist our volunteers in trying
                > something new, even if that means more research and work on my part.
                >
                > Had that one person fifteen years ago not given me the chance to work
                > behind the scenes as a teenager with no real training, I never would
                > have found my true calling in life.
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Randolph Keator
                Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie s post. Volunteer usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere. ... From: Sylvia Rognstad To:
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 17, 2008
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                  Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post. Volunteer usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Sylvia Rognstad
                  To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?


                  Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they should be
                  able to do their own research and find the pictures they need. If they
                  don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if I
                  sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well trained and
                  competent designers around who would love to have more design jobs. Of
                  course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
                  directors think they can achieve a well designed production without
                  paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.

                  Sylrog

                  On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:

                  > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
                  > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen CD roms
                  > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using vintage
                  > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where to find
                  > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the directors?
                  > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable trying to
                  > sketch their ideas.
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sylvia Rognstad
                  I didn t start designing before going to school. to study it. I think that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to be a doctor to just
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 17, 2008
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                    I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I think
                    that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to be
                    a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out his
                    shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere


                    On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:

                    > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post. Volunteer
                    > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                    > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                    >
                    > Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they should be
                    > able to do their own research and find the pictures they need. If they
                    > don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if I
                    > sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well trained
                    > and
                    > competent designers around who would love to have more design jobs. Of
                    > course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
                    > directors think they can achieve a well designed production without
                    > paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.
                    >
                    > Sylrog
                    >
                    > On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:
                    >
                    > > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
                    > > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen CD
                    > roms
                    > > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using
                    > vintage
                    > > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where to
                    > find
                    > > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the
                    > directors?
                    > > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable trying
                    > to
                    > > sketch their ideas.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sylvia Rognstad
                    I didn t start designing before going to school. to study it. I think that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to be a doctor to just
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 17, 2008
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                      I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I think
                      that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to be
                      a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out his
                      shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere


                      On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:

                      > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post. Volunteer
                      > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                      > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                      >
                      > Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they should be
                      > able to do their own research and find the pictures they need. If they
                      > don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if I
                      > sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well trained
                      > and
                      > competent designers around who would love to have more design jobs. Of
                      > course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
                      > directors think they can achieve a well designed production without
                      > paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.
                      >
                      > Sylrog
                      >
                      > On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:
                      >
                      > > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
                      > > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen CD
                      > roms
                      > > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using
                      > vintage
                      > > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where to
                      > find
                      > > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the
                      > directors?
                      > > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable trying
                      > to
                      > > sketch their ideas.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Mom IS my real name
                      Wow. Of course we all want to be compensated for what we love to do and believe we do well. I have only worked as a volunteer myself for penniless regional
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 17, 2008
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                        Wow. Of course we all want to be compensated for what we love to do
                        and believe we do well. I have only worked as a volunteer myself for
                        penniless regional ballet where, again, the directors, dancers, tech
                        folks, etc. are all unpaid. Guest choreographers are aometimes
                        paid. Stage crew is paid because they're union, and if the ticket
                        sales don't cover it, the director pays them out of her own pocket.
                        It's worth it to have ballet in a small semi-rural area. That's my
                        compensation, but I can't make my living at costuming because there's
                        no-one to pay me here. Does that mean we shouldn't have theatre?

                        BTW, when my partner finished medical school and began the requisite
                        4 year hospital residency, he worked between 70 and 90 hours a week
                        at a community hospital for salary. If his salary was divided by the
                        hours he worked he earned about 1/2 minimum wage. Our children
                        qualified for free lunch at school. 15 years later we're almost done
                        paying off our school loans, but serving a poor, rural community plus
                        the cost of required continuing education and board certification in
                        his field slows us down a bit.

                        Gotta start somewhere!


                        --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad
                        <sylvia@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I
                        think
                        > that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to
                        be
                        > a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out
                        his
                        > shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere
                        >
                        >
                        > On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:
                        >
                        > > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post.
                        Volunteer
                        > > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                        > > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                        > > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                        > >
                        > > Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they
                        should be
                        > > able to do their own research and find the pictures they need.
                        If they
                        > > don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if
                        I
                        > > sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well
                        trained
                        > > and
                        > > competent designers around who would love to have more design
                        jobs. Of
                        > > course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
                        > > directors think they can achieve a well designed production
                        without
                        > > paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.
                        > >
                        > > Sylrog
                        > >
                        > > On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
                        > > > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen
                        CD
                        > > roms
                        > > > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using
                        > > vintage
                        > > > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where
                        to
                        > > find
                        > > > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the
                        > > directors?
                        > > > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable
                        trying
                        > > to
                        > > > sketch their ideas.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Sylvia Rognstad
                        Yes, I admit a nerve was hit. It s part of the age old issue of theatre people, and costumers especially, not being compensated fairly. And I think it has to
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 17, 2008
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                          Yes, I admit a nerve was hit. It's part of the age old issue of
                          theatre people, and costumers especially, not being compensated fairly.
                          And I think it has to do with sexism as well. Directors and theatre
                          administrators seems to think that anyone can throw costumes together
                          if she's a woman. And when there are so many students still living at
                          home and housewives who don't have to work for a living, it's easy to
                          find costumers who will volunteer their time, which only makes it
                          harder for those of us who are actually trying to make a living at our
                          craft.

                          We don't need to go any further in this discussion, as it comes up time
                          and time again. I just felt I needed to explain myself a little more.

                          Sylrog

                          On Jan 17, 2008, at 3:10 PM, Mom IS my real name wrote:

                          > Wow. Of course we all want to be compensated for what we love to do
                          > and believe we do well. I have only worked as a volunteer myself for
                          > penniless regional ballet where, again, the directors, dancers, tech
                          > folks, etc. are all unpaid. Guest choreographers are aometimes
                          > paid. Stage crew is paid because they're union, and if the ticket
                          > sales don't cover it, the director pays them out of her own pocket.
                          > It's worth it to have ballet in a small semi-rural area. That's my
                          > compensation, but I can't make my living at costuming because there's
                          > no-one to pay me here. Does that mean we shouldn't have theatre?
                          >
                          > BTW, when my partner finished medical school and began the requisite
                          > 4 year hospital residency, he worked between 70 and 90 hours a week
                          > at a community hospital for salary. If his salary was divided by the
                          > hours he worked he earned about 1/2 minimum wage. Our children
                          > qualified for free lunch at school. 15 years later we're almost done
                          > paying off our school loans, but serving a poor, rural community plus
                          > the cost of required continuing education and board certification in
                          > his field slows us down a bit.
                          >
                          > Gotta start somewhere!
                          >
                          > --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad
                          > <sylvia@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I
                          > think
                          > > that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to
                          > be
                          > > a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out
                          > his
                          > > shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post.
                          > Volunteer
                          > > > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                          > > > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                          > > > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                          > > >
                          > > > Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they
                          > should be
                          > > > able to do their own research and find the pictures they need.
                          > If they
                          > > > don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if
                          > I
                          > > > sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well
                          > trained
                          > > > and
                          > > > competent designers around who would love to have more design
                          > jobs. Of
                          > > > course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
                          > > > directors think they can achieve a well designed production
                          > without
                          > > > paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.
                          > > >
                          > > > Sylrog
                          > > >
                          > > > On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
                          > > > > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen
                          > CD
                          > > > roms
                          > > > > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using
                          > > > vintage
                          > > > > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where
                          > to
                          > > > find
                          > > > > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the
                          > > > directors?
                          > > > > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable
                          > trying
                          > > > to
                          > > > > sketch their ideas.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • David Juby
                          Thank you so much for your response, and the reality check. Some of us tend to forget how lucky we are to be making a living doing this, and start thinking we
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 18, 2008
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                            Thank you so much for your response, and the reality check. Some of us tend
                            to forget how lucky we are to be making a living doing this, and start
                            thinking we are authorities on how everything should be done. Theatre
                            existed for thousands of years without us, and will somehow continue long
                            after our "expertise" has gone.

                            David


                            >From: "Mom IS my real name" <jeozeran@...>
                            >Reply-To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: [TheCostumersManifesto] Re: picture resources?
                            >Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:10:43 -0000
                            >
                            >Wow. Of course we all want to be compensated for what we love to do
                            >and believe we do well. I have only worked as a volunteer myself for
                            >penniless regional ballet where, again, the directors, dancers, tech
                            >folks, etc. are all unpaid. Guest choreographers are aometimes
                            >paid. Stage crew is paid because they're union, and if the ticket
                            >sales don't cover it, the director pays them out of her own pocket.
                            >It's worth it to have ballet in a small semi-rural area. That's my
                            >compensation, but I can't make my living at costuming because there's
                            >no-one to pay me here. Does that mean we shouldn't have theatre?
                            >
                            >BTW, when my partner finished medical school and began the requisite
                            >4 year hospital residency, he worked between 70 and 90 hours a week
                            >at a community hospital for salary. If his salary was divided by the
                            >hours he worked he earned about 1/2 minimum wage. Our children
                            >qualified for free lunch at school. 15 years later we're almost done
                            >paying off our school loans, but serving a poor, rural community plus
                            >the cost of required continuing education and board certification in
                            >his field slows us down a bit.
                            >
                            >Gotta start somewhere!
                            >
                            >
                            >--- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad
                            ><sylvia@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I
                            >think
                            > > that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to
                            >be
                            > > a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out
                            >his
                            > > shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post.
                            >Volunteer
                            > > > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                            > > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                            > > > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                            > > > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                            > > >
                            > > > Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they
                            >should be
                            > > > able to do their own research and find the pictures they need.
                            >If they
                            > > > don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if
                            >I
                            > > > sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well
                            >trained
                            > > > and
                            > > > competent designers around who would love to have more design
                            >jobs. Of
                            > > > course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
                            > > > directors think they can achieve a well designed production
                            >without
                            > > > paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.
                            > > >
                            > > > Sylrog
                            > > >
                            > > > On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
                            > > > > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen
                            >CD
                            > > > roms
                            > > > > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using
                            > > > vintage
                            > > > > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where
                            >to
                            > > > find
                            > > > > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the
                            > > > directors?
                            > > > > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable
                            >trying
                            > > > to
                            > > > > sketch their ideas.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                          • David Juby
                            You are right - it does seem to come up time and time again - and seemingly from often the same people. Sad really. Alot of very unhappy people working in a
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 18, 2008
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                              You are right - it does seem to come up time and time again - and seemingly
                              from often the same people. Sad really. Alot of very unhappy people working
                              in a wonderful industry. As for ending the discussion, I think that if a
                              nerve was hit, we owe it to our membership to have their say as well.


                              David

                              >From: Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@...>
                              >Reply-To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] Re: picture resources?
                              >Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:36:10 -0700
                              >
                              >Yes, I admit a nerve was hit. It's part of the age old issue of
                              >theatre people, and costumers especially, not being compensated fairly.
                              > And I think it has to do with sexism as well. Directors and theatre
                              >administrators seems to think that anyone can throw costumes together
                              >if she's a woman. And when there are so many students still living at
                              >home and housewives who don't have to work for a living, it's easy to
                              >find costumers who will volunteer their time, which only makes it
                              >harder for those of us who are actually trying to make a living at our
                              >craft.
                              >
                              >We don't need to go any further in this discussion, as it comes up time
                              >and time again. I just felt I needed to explain myself a little more.
                              >
                              >Sylrog
                              >
                              >On Jan 17, 2008, at 3:10 PM, Mom IS my real name wrote:
                              >
                              > > Wow. Of course we all want to be compensated for what we love to do
                              > > and believe we do well. I have only worked as a volunteer myself for
                              > > penniless regional ballet where, again, the directors, dancers, tech
                              > > folks, etc. are all unpaid. Guest choreographers are aometimes
                              > > paid. Stage crew is paid because they're union, and if the ticket
                              > > sales don't cover it, the director pays them out of her own pocket.
                              > > It's worth it to have ballet in a small semi-rural area. That's my
                              > > compensation, but I can't make my living at costuming because there's
                              > > no-one to pay me here. Does that mean we shouldn't have theatre?
                              > >
                              > > BTW, when my partner finished medical school and began the requisite
                              > > 4 year hospital residency, he worked between 70 and 90 hours a week
                              > > at a community hospital for salary. If his salary was divided by the
                              > > hours he worked he earned about 1/2 minimum wage. Our children
                              > > qualified for free lunch at school. 15 years later we're almost done
                              > > paying off our school loans, but serving a poor, rural community plus
                              > > the cost of required continuing education and board certification in
                              > > his field slows us down a bit.
                              > >
                              > > Gotta start somewhere!
                              > >
                              > > --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad
                              > > <sylvia@...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I
                              > > think
                              > > > that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to
                              > > be
                              > > > a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out
                              > > his
                              > > > shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post.
                              > > Volunteer
                              > > > > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                              > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                              > > > > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                              > > > > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they
                              > > should be
                              > > > > able to do their own research and find the pictures they need.
                              > > If they
                              > > > > don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if
                              > > I
                              > > > > sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well
                              > > trained
                              > > > > and
                              > > > > competent designers around who would love to have more design
                              > > jobs. Of
                              > > > > course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
                              > > > > directors think they can achieve a well designed production
                              > > without
                              > > > > paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Sylrog
                              > > > >
                              > > > > On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
                              > > > > > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen
                              > > CD
                              > > > > roms
                              > > > > > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using
                              > > > > vintage
                              > > > > > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where
                              > > to
                              > > > > find
                              > > > > > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the
                              > > > > directors?
                              > > > > > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable
                              > > trying
                              > > > > to
                              > > > > > sketch their ideas.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > > >
                              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Randolph Keator
                              Well let s carry it a bit further. Let s not allow anyone who would like to learn a trade or craft the opportunity to volunteer without first spending large
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 18, 2008
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                                Well let's carry it a bit further. Let's not allow anyone who would like to learn a trade or craft the opportunity to volunteer without first spending large sums of money on schooling. Ever occur to you there are those people in this world who are very talented and have the ability to teach themselves ? Not everyone requires or desires to go on to "higher" education through college. There are other avenues to learn. There is quite a span between becoming a doctor and a designer. How about we allow no volunteers at all in any walk of life ? If there is no pay involved then there is no service rendered. When I see you burning in your car I'll just stand back and wait for the "trained" and paid folks to get there. After all isn't "good samaritan" another term for VOLUTEER ? As I stated, everyone has to start somewhere.
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Sylvia Rognstad
                                To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:15 AM
                                Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?


                                I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I think
                                that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to be
                                a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out his
                                shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere

                                On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:

                                > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post. Volunteer
                                > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                                > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?

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                              • The Costume Shop
                                Just to add my 2 cents, I am now a professional costumer with my own shop taking a break from construction of Adelaide costumes for Guys and Dolls. Yes , I get
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jan 19, 2008
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                                  Just to add my 2 cents, I am now a professional costumer with my own shop taking a break from construction of Adelaide costumes for Guys and Dolls. Yes , I get paid now. 30 years ago I was a student at a then small college and involved in the theatre on campus. Since we were the only game in town we had built in audiences all year round and even a small summer theatre program that hired one professional actor per show in the summer and the rest of the cast was made up of amature actors who were from the community, the undergraduate campus and the graduate campus. All the tech positions were held by students mostly undergraduate students who just wanted to learn all they could. The program , though effective, was very underbudgeted, but the directors did as well as they could with what little money they had. We wanted to be involved so we did our own research , honed our sewing skills , and were not paid except of course for the experience that we gained that I and others still use even years later. There was no money to hire a designer and the directors were realistic enough to know that we were untrained but still able to produce something very akin to what was needed.
                                  All I am trying to say is that community theatre is very important to the community and is built on the work of individuals who volunteer their time because they are interested in keeping theatre in their community going. If I had not worked for free for 4 years as a student and at very little pay part time for the next 5 years I would not be able to do the work I do today. I honed my skills , back then all for the love of learning and contributing to something larger than myself. It paid off in the long run. Now I have a good reputation for being able to supply just about anything that the region needs in costume. No brag just fact. Community theatre is just different from going professional.

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • metholhill
                                  Amen to that. I started out as a volunteer 9 years ago, and did not even know how to sew, but could design very well. I sketched my own designs and through a
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jan 19, 2008
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                                    Amen to that. I started out as a volunteer 9 years ago, and did not
                                    even know how to sew, but could design very well. I sketched my own
                                    designs and through a lot of hard work and creativity came up with
                                    wonderful costumes. I am now a full paid costume director and we have
                                    just earned a brand new theatre for all of our hard work. Yes I said
                                    our! I happen to work with a wonderful team of directors and
                                    production people who value my work and cannot wait to see what I will
                                    do next. It is possible, having not had the opportunity of an
                                    education which I so badly wanted, to live my dream. I think this
                                    happens more than "educated" designers would like to believe.








                                    --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "Randolph Keator"
                                    <rkeator@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Well let's carry it a bit further. Let's not allow anyone who would
                                    like to learn a trade or craft the opportunity to volunteer without
                                    first spending large sums of money on schooling. Ever occur to you
                                    there are those people in this world who are very talented and have
                                    the ability to teach themselves ? Not everyone requires or desires to
                                    go on to "higher" education through college. There are other avenues
                                    to learn. There is quite a span between becoming a doctor and a
                                    designer. How about we allow no volunteers at all in any walk of life
                                    ? If there is no pay involved then there is no service rendered. When
                                    I see you burning in your car I'll just stand back and wait for the
                                    "trained" and paid folks to get there. After all isn't "good
                                    samaritan" another term for VOLUTEER ? As I stated, everyone has to
                                    start somewhere.
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                                    > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:15 AM
                                    > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I think
                                    > that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to be
                                    > a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out his
                                    > shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere
                                    >
                                    > On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post.
                                    Volunteer
                                    > > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                                    > > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
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                                  • Sylvia Rognstad
                                    Ok, everyone, I stand corrected. My frustration level got the better of me. And I just realized I have been looking at my experience as a glass half empty
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jan 20, 2008
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                                      Ok, everyone, I stand corrected. My frustration level got the better
                                      of me. And I just realized I have been looking at my experience as a
                                      glass half empty instead of a glass half full. I'm working on a play
                                      right now so that is great. I'll stop grousing at least until I'm
                                      finished with it, and I'll worry about what comes next at that point.

                                      Sylvia

                                      On Jan 19, 2008, at 10:12 PM, metholhill wrote:

                                      >
                                      > Amen to that. I started out as a volunteer 9 years ago, and did not
                                      > even know how to sew, but could design very well. I sketched my own
                                      > designs and through a lot of hard work and creativity came up with
                                      > wonderful costumes. I am now a full paid costume director and we have
                                      > just earned a brand new theatre for all of our hard work. Yes I said
                                      > our! I happen to work with a wonderful team of directors and
                                      > production people who value my work and cannot wait to see what I will
                                      > do next. It is possible, having not had the opportunity of an
                                      > education which I so badly wanted, to live my dream. I think this
                                      > happens more than "educated" designers would like to believe.
                                      >
                                      > --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "Randolph Keator"
                                      > <rkeator@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Well let's carry it a bit further. Let's not allow anyone who would
                                      > like to learn a trade or craft the opportunity to volunteer without
                                      > first spending large sums of money on schooling. Ever occur to you
                                      > there are those people in this world who are very talented and have
                                      > the ability to teach themselves ? Not everyone requires or desires to
                                      > go on to "higher" education through college. There are other avenues
                                      > to learn. There is quite a span between becoming a doctor and a
                                      > designer. How about we allow no volunteers at all in any walk of life
                                      > ? If there is no pay involved then there is no service rendered. When
                                      > I see you burning in your car I'll just stand back and wait for the
                                      > "trained" and paid folks to get there. After all isn't "good
                                      > samaritan" another term for VOLUTEER ? As I stated, everyone has to
                                      > start somewhere.
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                                      > > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:15 AM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I
                                      > think
                                      > > that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to
                                      > be
                                      > > a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out
                                      > his
                                      > > shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere
                                      > >
                                      > > On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post.
                                      > Volunteer
                                      > > > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                                      > > > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                                      > > > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                                      > >
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                                    • Curtis
                                      There are a lot of people out there who don t take costumes seriously...they think anyone can walk into a closet, clothing store, or hop online and find what
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jan 21, 2008
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                                        There are a lot of people out there who don't take costumes
                                        seriously...they think anyone can walk into a closet, clothing store,
                                        or hop online and find what they need in half an hour. However, in my
                                        experience, they're people that I wouldn't want to be working with,
                                        anyway...

                                        Producers/directors who are in this business to explore the art of it
                                        take the time to familiarize themselves with what their designers are
                                        going through. Some of them are paid, some of them volunteer. There
                                        are a lot of people out there, in every aspect of this industry, who
                                        have stellar credentials...and mediocre skills, at best. We had this
                                        argument with our staff choreographer several years ago because we
                                        wanted to hire one of the dancers that had performed with us to
                                        choreograph several numbers...she was a brilliant choreographer, and a
                                        fantastic dancer, but our choreographer was vehement about the fact
                                        that we shouldn't hire her because she had no educational credentials
                                        as a choreographer.

                                        My experience in theater, in general, is this...your credentials will
                                        get you your first job...maybe your second or even third. After that,
                                        people are more interested in what you know how to do, and not so much
                                        in where you learned how to do it. People worth working for will do
                                        their best to pay you what they can...but sometimes that's not an
                                        option. I have done some work for independent films in the area that
                                        paid me nothing more than my name in the credits and a couple of free
                                        meals. Some friends of mine have started a performing group and asked
                                        me to help them with costumes and sets...they covered my costs for
                                        supplies for their first show, but if you break down the rest of my
                                        payment versus the time I spent working on their stuff, I got paid
                                        less that $3/hour for my work. Why did I agree to it? More
                                        significantly, why did I agree to work on additional shows for them?
                                        Because I believe in the project, and like them, I'm willing to take a
                                        greatly reduced amount of pay for my work in the interests of keeping
                                        the group solvent until they build up a client base that can support a
                                        more realistic pay scale.

                                        Not everyone can afford to do that. I'm lucky that I have a regular
                                        job as a costumer, that allows me the time to do freelance projects on
                                        the side such as this. And some charity cases just don't succeed in
                                        keeping my sympathies...one of the theaters I've worked with several
                                        times in the past is just too far away for me to be able to continue
                                        to justify driving that far for the amount they can afford to pay me.

                                        I realize that we're moving on from the topic, but there's just one
                                        final thought that I want to add, in response to the comment comparing
                                        doctors to designers...doctors are not artists, and nobody's going to
                                        die if a designer gets a stitch out of place. Designers are
                                        artists...working within a somewhat rigid framework, but artists, just
                                        the same. History is full of artists that got paid large sums for
                                        their work...but they pretty much all started out doing it for the
                                        love of the art, not for the paycheck...and that's how they got to be
                                        good enough to earn the rewards they did. A lot of small theaters
                                        around here would go belly-up if they didn't have volunteer or grossly
                                        under-paid staff...but the larger theaters, that can afford to pay all
                                        their designers, would have much smaller audiences without the smaller
                                        theaters providing a tempting morsel, and whetting peoples' appetites
                                        for something bigger and better. On top of that, several of my jobs
                                        over the years have been specialty work for theaters whose lifeblood
                                        is volunteer personnel. When they needed something beyond the skills
                                        of their volunteers, they were willing to pay for it--but only because
                                        I hadn't already alienated them for being a volunteer-only theater.

                                        Let's face it...did anyone on this list go into theater/costuming to
                                        get rich? I tell people this industry is tough, because 90% of the
                                        money is made by 10% of the people working in it. But I love it, and
                                        I can scarcely imagine myself doing something else. Some of us are
                                        lucky enough to have landed in circumstances where we're making a
                                        living...maybe not a very comfortable one, but a living...doing
                                        something that we love...something that, in my case, I would have
                                        ended up doing as a hobby, anyway. At the end of the day, when I
                                        sometimes sit during the off-season and try and figure out which bills
                                        can wait to get paid because I'm on economic lean times, that stress
                                        is worth it for the satisfaction that I get from it. I do it for the
                                        joy of what I'm doing, and count myself blessed beyond explanation
                                        that there are people who are willing to pay me to do something that I
                                        enjoy so much already. I'm not going to begrudge someone else the
                                        chance to explore that joy, simply because their credentials may be
                                        lacking. Some of them have been the best people to work with, because
                                        their heart is really in the work.

                                        So, that's my take on the whole situation...I would have put this
                                        epistle in the mix earlier, but I had a massive communications
                                        breakdown this past week (my phone, for some reason, decided that it
                                        didn't want to recognize the cellular network anymore...and without my
                                        phone, I didn't have a way to pay my broadband bill, until tonight...)
                                        I love my career field...I credit it quite heavily with repeated
                                        comments I've received about how little I've aged, visually.
                                        Naturally, I looked younger and fresher than a lot of the people at my
                                        20-year reunion...the job I do, day after day, is something that most
                                        people think of as fun. And, as one of my former bosses put it, "The
                                        day this stops being fun for me is the day I need to find a new career."
                                      • Hope Wright
                                        Performing arts, historic sites, parks, libraries, schools, 4-H, scouts, firemen, paramedics, and many others rely on volunteers to some extent. Most
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jan 31, 2008
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                                          Performing arts, historic sites, parks, libraries, schools, 4-H,
                                          scouts, firemen, paramedics, and many others rely on volunteers to
                                          some extent. Most volunteers learn on the job or through working
                                          with an experienced person. And most do need occasionally
                                          to "consult" with someone.

                                          Unfortunately, it is also true that volunteers are seldom given
                                          respect by either other volunteers or especially those in the group
                                          who are paid. I know from my own volunteer work at a historic site
                                          that I have researched costume enough that I should be the first one
                                          called if there are questions regarding womens clothes at the site or
                                          if they want a "public" program, but because all my efforts are
                                          unpaid they never even think to ask. Instead, someone will ask
                                          an "expert" to come, and not only do they have to pay for the program
                                          they have to pay transportation and room and meals.

                                          What gripes me is I am careful to document my sources, but when I
                                          question some of the "expert's" statements and provide documentation
                                          as to why I am even asking, I get totally brushed off, no answers or
                                          no documentation, or very far-fetched conclusions - by the expert and
                                          by the people who hired her. I have to admit that the experience has
                                          so soured me that I have nearly stopped all volunteer work at that
                                          site. It's one thing not to be asked to do a program, but another
                                          thing altogether to be told the expert has to be right just because
                                          of their reputation and I don't even matter enough for an answer.
                                        • Curtis
                                          ... A prophet has no respect in his own country...or, to quote another source (I wish I could remember which film/TV show I saw this one on), An expert is
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                                            --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "Hope Wright"
                                            <hopewsew@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Instead, someone will ask
                                            > an "expert" to come, and not only do they have to pay for the program
                                            > they have to pay transportation and room and meals.
                                            >
                                            > What gripes me is I am careful to document my sources, but when I
                                            > question some of the "expert's" statements and provide documentation
                                            > as to why I am even asking, I get totally brushed off, no answers or
                                            > no documentation, or very far-fetched conclusions - by the expert and
                                            > by the people who hired her. I have to admit that the experience has
                                            > so soured me that I have nearly stopped all volunteer work at that
                                            > site. It's one thing not to be asked to do a program, but another
                                            > thing altogether to be told the expert has to be right just because
                                            > of their reputation and I don't even matter enough for an answer.


                                            A prophet has no respect in his own country...or, to quote another
                                            source (I wish I could remember which film/TV show I saw this one on),
                                            "An expert is just some guy from out of town, most of the time..."

                                            For a lot of places, the entire purpose of calling in such experts is
                                            to wow their audience with the diverse range of people they are able
                                            to attract...they are not necessarily concerned so much with the
                                            accuracy of the message delivered by these so-called experts as they
                                            are whether or not the patrons will be impressed by who it is/where
                                            they work/who they've worked for/with, etc...because impressive
                                            credentials make for good copy when they hit people up for
                                            contributors (to help fund additional visits, of course). It's rare
                                            that an administrator will look and say, "Y'know, we've got a
                                            volunteer on staff already who knows all of that stuff...why are we
                                            paying this guy?" The only time I've ever seen that happening was for
                                            a western heritage program that was hemorrhaging money, and basically
                                            got an ultimatum from its board of directors to at least reach a
                                            break-even point, even if it couldn't make a profit (unfortunately,
                                            the administrator was so zealous about trying to get as much done for
                                            free as possible that he ended up alienating most of the
                                            volunteers...and the program basically folded.)
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