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picture resources?

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  • Bonnie
    I m looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I ve seen CD roms with historic fashion
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 16, 2008
      I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
      volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen CD roms
      with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using vintage
      pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where to find
      photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the directors?
      Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable trying to
      sketch their ideas.
    • Sylvia Rognstad
      Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they should be able to do their own research and find the pictures they need. If they don t have any
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 16, 2008
        Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they should be
        able to do their own research and find the pictures they need. If they
        don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if I
        sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well trained and
        competent designers around who would love to have more design jobs. Of
        course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
        directors think they can achieve a well designed production without
        paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.

        Sylrog

        On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:

        > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
        > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen CD roms
        > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using vintage
        > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where to find
        > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the directors?
        > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable trying to
        > sketch their ideas.
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Poppy Shell
        ALOHA FROM HAWAII: I don t know what time period you are working on, but for anything American for the last few hundred years, I often visit the NYC library
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 16, 2008
          ALOHA FROM HAWAII: I don't know what time period you are working on, but for anything American for the last few hundred years, I often visit the NYC library web site that has hundreds of drawings and photos. Here is the web site: http://digital.nypl.org/mmpco/ I think it's great you have volunteers willing to help out your community theater, professionals aren't available everywhere (like here in the middle of the Pacific Ocean) and volunteers can become very talented through their own efforts. It reminds me of when I was a home-birth midwife in Oregon back in the 1980's. Others knew I had the potential and interest to be a midwife and then I learned by working with trained midwives as an apprentice and then assistant. I spent years studying on my own, attending workshops and seminars, reading and researching and getting experience attending births. BUT: I didn't go to college and many Nurse-midwives looked down on me and other ladies like me. Fast-forward to when I moved to Hawaii 15 yrs ago: I became a costumer because others knew I had the potential and interest to make theater costumes and then I learned by watching others, researching, reading and getting experience jumping in and making costumes. I hope others aren't looking down on me because I didn't attend college to become a designer, sewing, and maker of costumes. I'm the main costumer on my island and have costumed dozens of plays for hundreds of actors. I can change almost any piece of clothing into a costume, as well as make one from scratch using my own design or a commercial pattern - and i do all this on a very VERY small budget. I can turn old sheets and funky curtains into amazing costumes. I've even used Christmas placemats to enhance a costume! There are many ways, roads and paths to becoming what we are interested in or meant to do. Some of your volunteers may be a great costumer in the making. Well, that's my soapbox for the day. Poppy on Kauai


          To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.comFrom: avgsuperheroine@...: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:32:24 +0000Subject: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?




          I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen CD roms with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using vintage pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where to find photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the directors? Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable trying to sketch their ideas.






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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bonnie
          Thank you so much for the website link and the info you gave. I agree with many of your statements. However, to respond to some of the other statements made,
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 16, 2008
            Thank you so much for the website link and the info you gave. I
            agree with many of your statements.

            However, to respond to some of the other statements made, we are a
            very well accomplished and well-respected Community Theatre in the
            midwest, a rural town of only 11,000 people. A large part of our
            theatre's mission is to provide educational experiences for people in
            all aspects of the theatre. Everyone (I mean everyone from directors
            to box office to stage managers and actors) who works on our shows is
            a volunteer.

            I agree, people of all walks of life and all stations in life should
            have the opportunity to enjoy the creative process that working on a
            show provides. Even in our children's theatre programs, we teach
            children how to build sets and work on the lighting design, further
            promoting the concept that everyone's work is important and valuable-
            from the actors on stage to the people who help hang flyers around
            town. I'm more than happy to assist our volunteers in trying
            something new, even if that means more research and work on my part.

            Had that one person fifteen years ago not given me the chance to work
            behind the scenes as a teenager with no real training, I never would
            have found my true calling in life.
          • Mom IS my real name
            The Tom Tierney paperdolls from Dover books are fun to have on hand. There s a collection for almost any subject you can imagine.
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 16, 2008
              The Tom Tierney paperdolls from Dover books are fun to have on hand.
              There's a collection for almost any subject you can imagine.

              http://store.doverpublications.com/tierney5.html

              Janelle
            • Mom IS my real name
              I just found this page that has links to samples of the paperdolls. Handy if you don t know if they re really something you want to invest in:
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 16, 2008
                I just found this page that has links to samples of the paperdolls.
                Handy if you don't know if they're really something you want to invest
                in:

                http://www.doverpublications.com/paperdolls/samples.html



                --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "Mom IS my real name"
                <jeozeran@...> wrote:
                >
                > The Tom Tierney paperdolls from Dover books are fun to have on hand.
                > There's a collection for almost any subject you can imagine.
                >
                > http://store.doverpublications.com/tierney5.html
                >
                > Janelle
                >
              • Sylvia Rognstad
                I can understand actors working for free in community theatres because rehearsals are held at night so they can hold down full time jobs. But the costume
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 16, 2008
                  I can understand actors working for free in community theatres because
                  rehearsals are held at night so they can hold down full time jobs. But
                  the costume design and building of a play is usually a full time job,
                  especially with a large cast. I used to work for a community theatre.
                  It was my second paid job and I was an intern. I got paid peanuts but
                  it was in the Mid West and I managed to find an apartment for $100 a
                  month, so I barely squeaked by. But I was working every day from 9am
                  to about 10 or 11 at night. I didn't have a day off until after my
                  first show opened.

                  So I think it is unreasonable for anyone to expect the costume design
                  position to be on a volunteer basis. Just my .02.

                  Sylrog

                  On Jan 16, 2008, at 3:55 PM, Bonnie wrote:

                  > Thank you so much for the website link and the info you gave. I
                  > agree with many of your statements.
                  >
                  > However, to respond to some of the other statements made, we are a
                  > very well accomplished and well-respected Community Theatre in the
                  > midwest, a rural town of only 11,000 people. A large part of our
                  > theatre's mission is to provide educational experiences for people in
                  > all aspects of the theatre. Everyone (I mean everyone from directors
                  > to box office to stage managers and actors) who works on our shows is
                  > a volunteer.
                  >
                  > I agree, people of all walks of life and all stations in life should
                  > have the opportunity to enjoy the creative process that working on a
                  > show provides. Even in our children's theatre programs, we teach
                  > children how to build sets and work on the lighting design, further
                  > promoting the concept that everyone's work is important and valuable-
                  > from the actors on stage to the people who help hang flyers around
                  > town. I'm more than happy to assist our volunteers in trying
                  > something new, even if that means more research and work on my part.
                  >
                  > Had that one person fifteen years ago not given me the chance to work
                  > behind the scenes as a teenager with no real training, I never would
                  > have found my true calling in life.
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Randolph Keator
                  Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie s post. Volunteer usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere. ... From: Sylvia Rognstad To:
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 17, 2008
                    Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post. Volunteer usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Sylvia Rognstad
                    To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?


                    Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they should be
                    able to do their own research and find the pictures they need. If they
                    don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if I
                    sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well trained and
                    competent designers around who would love to have more design jobs. Of
                    course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
                    directors think they can achieve a well designed production without
                    paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.

                    Sylrog

                    On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:

                    > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
                    > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen CD roms
                    > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using vintage
                    > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where to find
                    > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the directors?
                    > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable trying to
                    > sketch their ideas.
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sylvia Rognstad
                    I didn t start designing before going to school. to study it. I think that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to be a doctor to just
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 17, 2008
                      I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I think
                      that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to be
                      a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out his
                      shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere


                      On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:

                      > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post. Volunteer
                      > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                      > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                      >
                      > Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they should be
                      > able to do their own research and find the pictures they need. If they
                      > don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if I
                      > sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well trained
                      > and
                      > competent designers around who would love to have more design jobs. Of
                      > course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
                      > directors think they can achieve a well designed production without
                      > paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.
                      >
                      > Sylrog
                      >
                      > On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:
                      >
                      > > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
                      > > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen CD
                      > roms
                      > > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using
                      > vintage
                      > > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where to
                      > find
                      > > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the
                      > directors?
                      > > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable trying
                      > to
                      > > sketch their ideas.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Sylvia Rognstad
                      I didn t start designing before going to school. to study it. I think that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to be a doctor to just
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 17, 2008
                        I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I think
                        that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to be
                        a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out his
                        shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere


                        On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:

                        > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post. Volunteer
                        > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                        > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                        >
                        > Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they should be
                        > able to do their own research and find the pictures they need. If they
                        > don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if I
                        > sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well trained
                        > and
                        > competent designers around who would love to have more design jobs. Of
                        > course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
                        > directors think they can achieve a well designed production without
                        > paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.
                        >
                        > Sylrog
                        >
                        > On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:
                        >
                        > > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
                        > > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen CD
                        > roms
                        > > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using
                        > vintage
                        > > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where to
                        > find
                        > > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the
                        > directors?
                        > > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable trying
                        > to
                        > > sketch their ideas.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Mom IS my real name
                        Wow. Of course we all want to be compensated for what we love to do and believe we do well. I have only worked as a volunteer myself for penniless regional
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 17, 2008
                          Wow. Of course we all want to be compensated for what we love to do
                          and believe we do well. I have only worked as a volunteer myself for
                          penniless regional ballet where, again, the directors, dancers, tech
                          folks, etc. are all unpaid. Guest choreographers are aometimes
                          paid. Stage crew is paid because they're union, and if the ticket
                          sales don't cover it, the director pays them out of her own pocket.
                          It's worth it to have ballet in a small semi-rural area. That's my
                          compensation, but I can't make my living at costuming because there's
                          no-one to pay me here. Does that mean we shouldn't have theatre?

                          BTW, when my partner finished medical school and began the requisite
                          4 year hospital residency, he worked between 70 and 90 hours a week
                          at a community hospital for salary. If his salary was divided by the
                          hours he worked he earned about 1/2 minimum wage. Our children
                          qualified for free lunch at school. 15 years later we're almost done
                          paying off our school loans, but serving a poor, rural community plus
                          the cost of required continuing education and board certification in
                          his field slows us down a bit.

                          Gotta start somewhere!


                          --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad
                          <sylvia@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I
                          think
                          > that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to
                          be
                          > a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out
                          his
                          > shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere
                          >
                          >
                          > On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:
                          >
                          > > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post.
                          Volunteer
                          > > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                          > > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                          > >
                          > > Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they
                          should be
                          > > able to do their own research and find the pictures they need.
                          If they
                          > > don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if
                          I
                          > > sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well
                          trained
                          > > and
                          > > competent designers around who would love to have more design
                          jobs. Of
                          > > course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
                          > > directors think they can achieve a well designed production
                          without
                          > > paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.
                          > >
                          > > Sylrog
                          > >
                          > > On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
                          > > > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen
                          CD
                          > > roms
                          > > > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using
                          > > vintage
                          > > > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where
                          to
                          > > find
                          > > > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the
                          > > directors?
                          > > > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable
                          trying
                          > > to
                          > > > sketch their ideas.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Sylvia Rognstad
                          Yes, I admit a nerve was hit. It s part of the age old issue of theatre people, and costumers especially, not being compensated fairly. And I think it has to
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 17, 2008
                            Yes, I admit a nerve was hit. It's part of the age old issue of
                            theatre people, and costumers especially, not being compensated fairly.
                            And I think it has to do with sexism as well. Directors and theatre
                            administrators seems to think that anyone can throw costumes together
                            if she's a woman. And when there are so many students still living at
                            home and housewives who don't have to work for a living, it's easy to
                            find costumers who will volunteer their time, which only makes it
                            harder for those of us who are actually trying to make a living at our
                            craft.

                            We don't need to go any further in this discussion, as it comes up time
                            and time again. I just felt I needed to explain myself a little more.

                            Sylrog

                            On Jan 17, 2008, at 3:10 PM, Mom IS my real name wrote:

                            > Wow. Of course we all want to be compensated for what we love to do
                            > and believe we do well. I have only worked as a volunteer myself for
                            > penniless regional ballet where, again, the directors, dancers, tech
                            > folks, etc. are all unpaid. Guest choreographers are aometimes
                            > paid. Stage crew is paid because they're union, and if the ticket
                            > sales don't cover it, the director pays them out of her own pocket.
                            > It's worth it to have ballet in a small semi-rural area. That's my
                            > compensation, but I can't make my living at costuming because there's
                            > no-one to pay me here. Does that mean we shouldn't have theatre?
                            >
                            > BTW, when my partner finished medical school and began the requisite
                            > 4 year hospital residency, he worked between 70 and 90 hours a week
                            > at a community hospital for salary. If his salary was divided by the
                            > hours he worked he earned about 1/2 minimum wage. Our children
                            > qualified for free lunch at school. 15 years later we're almost done
                            > paying off our school loans, but serving a poor, rural community plus
                            > the cost of required continuing education and board certification in
                            > his field slows us down a bit.
                            >
                            > Gotta start somewhere!
                            >
                            > --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad
                            > <sylvia@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I
                            > think
                            > > that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to
                            > be
                            > > a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out
                            > his
                            > > shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post.
                            > Volunteer
                            > > > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                            > > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                            > > > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                            > > > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                            > > >
                            > > > Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they
                            > should be
                            > > > able to do their own research and find the pictures they need.
                            > If they
                            > > > don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if
                            > I
                            > > > sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well
                            > trained
                            > > > and
                            > > > competent designers around who would love to have more design
                            > jobs. Of
                            > > > course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
                            > > > directors think they can achieve a well designed production
                            > without
                            > > > paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.
                            > > >
                            > > > Sylrog
                            > > >
                            > > > On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
                            > > > > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen
                            > CD
                            > > > roms
                            > > > > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using
                            > > > vintage
                            > > > > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where
                            > to
                            > > > find
                            > > > > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the
                            > > > directors?
                            > > > > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable
                            > trying
                            > > > to
                            > > > > sketch their ideas.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • David Juby
                            Thank you so much for your response, and the reality check. Some of us tend to forget how lucky we are to be making a living doing this, and start thinking we
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 18, 2008
                              Thank you so much for your response, and the reality check. Some of us tend
                              to forget how lucky we are to be making a living doing this, and start
                              thinking we are authorities on how everything should be done. Theatre
                              existed for thousands of years without us, and will somehow continue long
                              after our "expertise" has gone.

                              David


                              >From: "Mom IS my real name" <jeozeran@...>
                              >Reply-To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: [TheCostumersManifesto] Re: picture resources?
                              >Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:10:43 -0000
                              >
                              >Wow. Of course we all want to be compensated for what we love to do
                              >and believe we do well. I have only worked as a volunteer myself for
                              >penniless regional ballet where, again, the directors, dancers, tech
                              >folks, etc. are all unpaid. Guest choreographers are aometimes
                              >paid. Stage crew is paid because they're union, and if the ticket
                              >sales don't cover it, the director pays them out of her own pocket.
                              >It's worth it to have ballet in a small semi-rural area. That's my
                              >compensation, but I can't make my living at costuming because there's
                              >no-one to pay me here. Does that mean we shouldn't have theatre?
                              >
                              >BTW, when my partner finished medical school and began the requisite
                              >4 year hospital residency, he worked between 70 and 90 hours a week
                              >at a community hospital for salary. If his salary was divided by the
                              >hours he worked he earned about 1/2 minimum wage. Our children
                              >qualified for free lunch at school. 15 years later we're almost done
                              >paying off our school loans, but serving a poor, rural community plus
                              >the cost of required continuing education and board certification in
                              >his field slows us down a bit.
                              >
                              >Gotta start somewhere!
                              >
                              >
                              >--- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad
                              ><sylvia@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I
                              >think
                              > > that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to
                              >be
                              > > a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out
                              >his
                              > > shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post.
                              >Volunteer
                              > > > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                              > > > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                              > > > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                              > > >
                              > > > Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they
                              >should be
                              > > > able to do their own research and find the pictures they need.
                              >If they
                              > > > don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if
                              >I
                              > > > sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well
                              >trained
                              > > > and
                              > > > competent designers around who would love to have more design
                              >jobs. Of
                              > > > course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
                              > > > directors think they can achieve a well designed production
                              >without
                              > > > paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.
                              > > >
                              > > > Sylrog
                              > > >
                              > > > On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
                              > > > > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen
                              >CD
                              > > > roms
                              > > > > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using
                              > > > vintage
                              > > > > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where
                              >to
                              > > > find
                              > > > > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the
                              > > > directors?
                              > > > > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable
                              >trying
                              > > > to
                              > > > > sketch their ideas.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                            • David Juby
                              You are right - it does seem to come up time and time again - and seemingly from often the same people. Sad really. Alot of very unhappy people working in a
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 18, 2008
                                You are right - it does seem to come up time and time again - and seemingly
                                from often the same people. Sad really. Alot of very unhappy people working
                                in a wonderful industry. As for ending the discussion, I think that if a
                                nerve was hit, we owe it to our membership to have their say as well.


                                David

                                >From: Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@...>
                                >Reply-To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                >Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] Re: picture resources?
                                >Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:36:10 -0700
                                >
                                >Yes, I admit a nerve was hit. It's part of the age old issue of
                                >theatre people, and costumers especially, not being compensated fairly.
                                > And I think it has to do with sexism as well. Directors and theatre
                                >administrators seems to think that anyone can throw costumes together
                                >if she's a woman. And when there are so many students still living at
                                >home and housewives who don't have to work for a living, it's easy to
                                >find costumers who will volunteer their time, which only makes it
                                >harder for those of us who are actually trying to make a living at our
                                >craft.
                                >
                                >We don't need to go any further in this discussion, as it comes up time
                                >and time again. I just felt I needed to explain myself a little more.
                                >
                                >Sylrog
                                >
                                >On Jan 17, 2008, at 3:10 PM, Mom IS my real name wrote:
                                >
                                > > Wow. Of course we all want to be compensated for what we love to do
                                > > and believe we do well. I have only worked as a volunteer myself for
                                > > penniless regional ballet where, again, the directors, dancers, tech
                                > > folks, etc. are all unpaid. Guest choreographers are aometimes
                                > > paid. Stage crew is paid because they're union, and if the ticket
                                > > sales don't cover it, the director pays them out of her own pocket.
                                > > It's worth it to have ballet in a small semi-rural area. That's my
                                > > compensation, but I can't make my living at costuming because there's
                                > > no-one to pay me here. Does that mean we shouldn't have theatre?
                                > >
                                > > BTW, when my partner finished medical school and began the requisite
                                > > 4 year hospital residency, he worked between 70 and 90 hours a week
                                > > at a community hospital for salary. If his salary was divided by the
                                > > hours he worked he earned about 1/2 minimum wage. Our children
                                > > qualified for free lunch at school. 15 years later we're almost done
                                > > paying off our school loans, but serving a poor, rural community plus
                                > > the cost of required continuing education and board certification in
                                > > his field slows us down a bit.
                                > >
                                > > Gotta start somewhere!
                                > >
                                > > --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad
                                > > <sylvia@...> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I
                                > > think
                                > > > that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to
                                > > be
                                > > > a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out
                                > > his
                                > > > shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post.
                                > > Volunteer
                                > > > > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                                > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > > > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                                > > > > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                                > > > > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Do these designers have any training in design? If so, they
                                > > should be
                                > > > > able to do their own research and find the pictures they need.
                                > > If they
                                > > > > don't have any design training, why are they designing? Sorry if
                                > > I
                                > > > > sound a bit harsh, but there are a lot of us extremely well
                                > > trained
                                > > > > and
                                > > > > competent designers around who would love to have more design
                                > > jobs. Of
                                > > > > course, we would like to get paid too, and it irritates me that
                                > > > > directors think they can achieve a well designed production
                                > > without
                                > > > > paying someone for their years and years worth of experience.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Sylrog
                                > > > >
                                > > > > On Jan 16, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Bonnie wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > I'm looking to come up with a list of picture resources for our
                                > > > > > volunteer designers to use at our community theatre. I've seen
                                > > CD
                                > > > > roms
                                > > > > > with historic fashion pictures, and also have thought of using
                                > > > > vintage
                                > > > > > pattern photos. Does anyone have any other good ideas of where
                                > > to
                                > > > > find
                                > > > > > photos to let volunteer designers convey their ideas to the
                                > > > > directors?
                                > > > > > Most are new at designing and don't really feel comfortable
                                > > trying
                                > > > > to
                                > > > > > sketch their ideas.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > >
                                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Randolph Keator
                                Well let s carry it a bit further. Let s not allow anyone who would like to learn a trade or craft the opportunity to volunteer without first spending large
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jan 18, 2008
                                  Well let's carry it a bit further. Let's not allow anyone who would like to learn a trade or craft the opportunity to volunteer without first spending large sums of money on schooling. Ever occur to you there are those people in this world who are very talented and have the ability to teach themselves ? Not everyone requires or desires to go on to "higher" education through college. There are other avenues to learn. There is quite a span between becoming a doctor and a designer. How about we allow no volunteers at all in any walk of life ? If there is no pay involved then there is no service rendered. When I see you burning in your car I'll just stand back and wait for the "trained" and paid folks to get there. After all isn't "good samaritan" another term for VOLUTEER ? As I stated, everyone has to start somewhere.
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Sylvia Rognstad
                                  To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:15 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?


                                  I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I think
                                  that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to be
                                  a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out his
                                  shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere

                                  On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:

                                  > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post. Volunteer
                                  > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                                  > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?

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                                • The Costume Shop
                                  Just to add my 2 cents, I am now a professional costumer with my own shop taking a break from construction of Adelaide costumes for Guys and Dolls. Yes , I get
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jan 19, 2008
                                    Just to add my 2 cents, I am now a professional costumer with my own shop taking a break from construction of Adelaide costumes for Guys and Dolls. Yes , I get paid now. 30 years ago I was a student at a then small college and involved in the theatre on campus. Since we were the only game in town we had built in audiences all year round and even a small summer theatre program that hired one professional actor per show in the summer and the rest of the cast was made up of amature actors who were from the community, the undergraduate campus and the graduate campus. All the tech positions were held by students mostly undergraduate students who just wanted to learn all they could. The program , though effective, was very underbudgeted, but the directors did as well as they could with what little money they had. We wanted to be involved so we did our own research , honed our sewing skills , and were not paid except of course for the experience that we gained that I and others still use even years later. There was no money to hire a designer and the directors were realistic enough to know that we were untrained but still able to produce something very akin to what was needed.
                                    All I am trying to say is that community theatre is very important to the community and is built on the work of individuals who volunteer their time because they are interested in keeping theatre in their community going. If I had not worked for free for 4 years as a student and at very little pay part time for the next 5 years I would not be able to do the work I do today. I honed my skills , back then all for the love of learning and contributing to something larger than myself. It paid off in the long run. Now I have a good reputation for being able to supply just about anything that the region needs in costume. No brag just fact. Community theatre is just different from going professional.

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • metholhill
                                    Amen to that. I started out as a volunteer 9 years ago, and did not even know how to sew, but could design very well. I sketched my own designs and through a
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jan 19, 2008
                                      Amen to that. I started out as a volunteer 9 years ago, and did not
                                      even know how to sew, but could design very well. I sketched my own
                                      designs and through a lot of hard work and creativity came up with
                                      wonderful costumes. I am now a full paid costume director and we have
                                      just earned a brand new theatre for all of our hard work. Yes I said
                                      our! I happen to work with a wonderful team of directors and
                                      production people who value my work and cannot wait to see what I will
                                      do next. It is possible, having not had the opportunity of an
                                      education which I so badly wanted, to live my dream. I think this
                                      happens more than "educated" designers would like to believe.








                                      --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "Randolph Keator"
                                      <rkeator@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Well let's carry it a bit further. Let's not allow anyone who would
                                      like to learn a trade or craft the opportunity to volunteer without
                                      first spending large sums of money on schooling. Ever occur to you
                                      there are those people in this world who are very talented and have
                                      the ability to teach themselves ? Not everyone requires or desires to
                                      go on to "higher" education through college. There are other avenues
                                      to learn. There is quite a span between becoming a doctor and a
                                      designer. How about we allow no volunteers at all in any walk of life
                                      ? If there is no pay involved then there is no service rendered. When
                                      I see you burning in your car I'll just stand back and wait for the
                                      "trained" and paid folks to get there. After all isn't "good
                                      samaritan" another term for VOLUTEER ? As I stated, everyone has to
                                      start somewhere.
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                                      > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:15 AM
                                      > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I think
                                      > that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to be
                                      > a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out his
                                      > shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere
                                      >
                                      > On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post.
                                      Volunteer
                                      > > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                                      > > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
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                                    • Sylvia Rognstad
                                      Ok, everyone, I stand corrected. My frustration level got the better of me. And I just realized I have been looking at my experience as a glass half empty
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jan 20, 2008
                                        Ok, everyone, I stand corrected. My frustration level got the better
                                        of me. And I just realized I have been looking at my experience as a
                                        glass half empty instead of a glass half full. I'm working on a play
                                        right now so that is great. I'll stop grousing at least until I'm
                                        finished with it, and I'll worry about what comes next at that point.

                                        Sylvia

                                        On Jan 19, 2008, at 10:12 PM, metholhill wrote:

                                        >
                                        > Amen to that. I started out as a volunteer 9 years ago, and did not
                                        > even know how to sew, but could design very well. I sketched my own
                                        > designs and through a lot of hard work and creativity came up with
                                        > wonderful costumes. I am now a full paid costume director and we have
                                        > just earned a brand new theatre for all of our hard work. Yes I said
                                        > our! I happen to work with a wonderful team of directors and
                                        > production people who value my work and cannot wait to see what I will
                                        > do next. It is possible, having not had the opportunity of an
                                        > education which I so badly wanted, to live my dream. I think this
                                        > happens more than "educated" designers would like to believe.
                                        >
                                        > --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "Randolph Keator"
                                        > <rkeator@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Well let's carry it a bit further. Let's not allow anyone who would
                                        > like to learn a trade or craft the opportunity to volunteer without
                                        > first spending large sums of money on schooling. Ever occur to you
                                        > there are those people in this world who are very talented and have
                                        > the ability to teach themselves ? Not everyone requires or desires to
                                        > go on to "higher" education through college. There are other avenues
                                        > to learn. There is quite a span between becoming a doctor and a
                                        > designer. How about we allow no volunteers at all in any walk of life
                                        > ? If there is no pay involved then there is no service rendered. When
                                        > I see you burning in your car I'll just stand back and wait for the
                                        > "trained" and paid folks to get there. After all isn't "good
                                        > samaritan" another term for VOLUTEER ? As I stated, everyone has to
                                        > start somewhere.
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                                        > > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:15 AM
                                        > > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > I didn't start designing before going to school. to study it. I
                                        > think
                                        > > that should be a prerequisite. Would you tell someone who wants to
                                        > be
                                        > > a doctor to just find some books on medicine to read and hang out
                                        > his
                                        > > shingle? After all, one has to start somewhere
                                        > >
                                        > > On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Randolph Keator wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > Maybe you should reread the first sentence of Bonnie's post.
                                        > Volunteer
                                        > > > usually means NO PAY. Everyone has to start somewhere.
                                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > > From: Sylvia Rognstad
                                        > > > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
                                        > > > Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] picture resources?
                                        > >
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                                      • Curtis
                                        There are a lot of people out there who don t take costumes seriously...they think anyone can walk into a closet, clothing store, or hop online and find what
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jan 21, 2008
                                          There are a lot of people out there who don't take costumes
                                          seriously...they think anyone can walk into a closet, clothing store,
                                          or hop online and find what they need in half an hour. However, in my
                                          experience, they're people that I wouldn't want to be working with,
                                          anyway...

                                          Producers/directors who are in this business to explore the art of it
                                          take the time to familiarize themselves with what their designers are
                                          going through. Some of them are paid, some of them volunteer. There
                                          are a lot of people out there, in every aspect of this industry, who
                                          have stellar credentials...and mediocre skills, at best. We had this
                                          argument with our staff choreographer several years ago because we
                                          wanted to hire one of the dancers that had performed with us to
                                          choreograph several numbers...she was a brilliant choreographer, and a
                                          fantastic dancer, but our choreographer was vehement about the fact
                                          that we shouldn't hire her because she had no educational credentials
                                          as a choreographer.

                                          My experience in theater, in general, is this...your credentials will
                                          get you your first job...maybe your second or even third. After that,
                                          people are more interested in what you know how to do, and not so much
                                          in where you learned how to do it. People worth working for will do
                                          their best to pay you what they can...but sometimes that's not an
                                          option. I have done some work for independent films in the area that
                                          paid me nothing more than my name in the credits and a couple of free
                                          meals. Some friends of mine have started a performing group and asked
                                          me to help them with costumes and sets...they covered my costs for
                                          supplies for their first show, but if you break down the rest of my
                                          payment versus the time I spent working on their stuff, I got paid
                                          less that $3/hour for my work. Why did I agree to it? More
                                          significantly, why did I agree to work on additional shows for them?
                                          Because I believe in the project, and like them, I'm willing to take a
                                          greatly reduced amount of pay for my work in the interests of keeping
                                          the group solvent until they build up a client base that can support a
                                          more realistic pay scale.

                                          Not everyone can afford to do that. I'm lucky that I have a regular
                                          job as a costumer, that allows me the time to do freelance projects on
                                          the side such as this. And some charity cases just don't succeed in
                                          keeping my sympathies...one of the theaters I've worked with several
                                          times in the past is just too far away for me to be able to continue
                                          to justify driving that far for the amount they can afford to pay me.

                                          I realize that we're moving on from the topic, but there's just one
                                          final thought that I want to add, in response to the comment comparing
                                          doctors to designers...doctors are not artists, and nobody's going to
                                          die if a designer gets a stitch out of place. Designers are
                                          artists...working within a somewhat rigid framework, but artists, just
                                          the same. History is full of artists that got paid large sums for
                                          their work...but they pretty much all started out doing it for the
                                          love of the art, not for the paycheck...and that's how they got to be
                                          good enough to earn the rewards they did. A lot of small theaters
                                          around here would go belly-up if they didn't have volunteer or grossly
                                          under-paid staff...but the larger theaters, that can afford to pay all
                                          their designers, would have much smaller audiences without the smaller
                                          theaters providing a tempting morsel, and whetting peoples' appetites
                                          for something bigger and better. On top of that, several of my jobs
                                          over the years have been specialty work for theaters whose lifeblood
                                          is volunteer personnel. When they needed something beyond the skills
                                          of their volunteers, they were willing to pay for it--but only because
                                          I hadn't already alienated them for being a volunteer-only theater.

                                          Let's face it...did anyone on this list go into theater/costuming to
                                          get rich? I tell people this industry is tough, because 90% of the
                                          money is made by 10% of the people working in it. But I love it, and
                                          I can scarcely imagine myself doing something else. Some of us are
                                          lucky enough to have landed in circumstances where we're making a
                                          living...maybe not a very comfortable one, but a living...doing
                                          something that we love...something that, in my case, I would have
                                          ended up doing as a hobby, anyway. At the end of the day, when I
                                          sometimes sit during the off-season and try and figure out which bills
                                          can wait to get paid because I'm on economic lean times, that stress
                                          is worth it for the satisfaction that I get from it. I do it for the
                                          joy of what I'm doing, and count myself blessed beyond explanation
                                          that there are people who are willing to pay me to do something that I
                                          enjoy so much already. I'm not going to begrudge someone else the
                                          chance to explore that joy, simply because their credentials may be
                                          lacking. Some of them have been the best people to work with, because
                                          their heart is really in the work.

                                          So, that's my take on the whole situation...I would have put this
                                          epistle in the mix earlier, but I had a massive communications
                                          breakdown this past week (my phone, for some reason, decided that it
                                          didn't want to recognize the cellular network anymore...and without my
                                          phone, I didn't have a way to pay my broadband bill, until tonight...)
                                          I love my career field...I credit it quite heavily with repeated
                                          comments I've received about how little I've aged, visually.
                                          Naturally, I looked younger and fresher than a lot of the people at my
                                          20-year reunion...the job I do, day after day, is something that most
                                          people think of as fun. And, as one of my former bosses put it, "The
                                          day this stops being fun for me is the day I need to find a new career."
                                        • Hope Wright
                                          Performing arts, historic sites, parks, libraries, schools, 4-H, scouts, firemen, paramedics, and many others rely on volunteers to some extent. Most
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jan 31, 2008
                                            Performing arts, historic sites, parks, libraries, schools, 4-H,
                                            scouts, firemen, paramedics, and many others rely on volunteers to
                                            some extent. Most volunteers learn on the job or through working
                                            with an experienced person. And most do need occasionally
                                            to "consult" with someone.

                                            Unfortunately, it is also true that volunteers are seldom given
                                            respect by either other volunteers or especially those in the group
                                            who are paid. I know from my own volunteer work at a historic site
                                            that I have researched costume enough that I should be the first one
                                            called if there are questions regarding womens clothes at the site or
                                            if they want a "public" program, but because all my efforts are
                                            unpaid they never even think to ask. Instead, someone will ask
                                            an "expert" to come, and not only do they have to pay for the program
                                            they have to pay transportation and room and meals.

                                            What gripes me is I am careful to document my sources, but when I
                                            question some of the "expert's" statements and provide documentation
                                            as to why I am even asking, I get totally brushed off, no answers or
                                            no documentation, or very far-fetched conclusions - by the expert and
                                            by the people who hired her. I have to admit that the experience has
                                            so soured me that I have nearly stopped all volunteer work at that
                                            site. It's one thing not to be asked to do a program, but another
                                            thing altogether to be told the expert has to be right just because
                                            of their reputation and I don't even matter enough for an answer.
                                          • Curtis
                                            ... A prophet has no respect in his own country...or, to quote another source (I wish I could remember which film/TV show I saw this one on), An expert is
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
                                              --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "Hope Wright"
                                              <hopewsew@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Instead, someone will ask
                                              > an "expert" to come, and not only do they have to pay for the program
                                              > they have to pay transportation and room and meals.
                                              >
                                              > What gripes me is I am careful to document my sources, but when I
                                              > question some of the "expert's" statements and provide documentation
                                              > as to why I am even asking, I get totally brushed off, no answers or
                                              > no documentation, or very far-fetched conclusions - by the expert and
                                              > by the people who hired her. I have to admit that the experience has
                                              > so soured me that I have nearly stopped all volunteer work at that
                                              > site. It's one thing not to be asked to do a program, but another
                                              > thing altogether to be told the expert has to be right just because
                                              > of their reputation and I don't even matter enough for an answer.


                                              A prophet has no respect in his own country...or, to quote another
                                              source (I wish I could remember which film/TV show I saw this one on),
                                              "An expert is just some guy from out of town, most of the time..."

                                              For a lot of places, the entire purpose of calling in such experts is
                                              to wow their audience with the diverse range of people they are able
                                              to attract...they are not necessarily concerned so much with the
                                              accuracy of the message delivered by these so-called experts as they
                                              are whether or not the patrons will be impressed by who it is/where
                                              they work/who they've worked for/with, etc...because impressive
                                              credentials make for good copy when they hit people up for
                                              contributors (to help fund additional visits, of course). It's rare
                                              that an administrator will look and say, "Y'know, we've got a
                                              volunteer on staff already who knows all of that stuff...why are we
                                              paying this guy?" The only time I've ever seen that happening was for
                                              a western heritage program that was hemorrhaging money, and basically
                                              got an ultimatum from its board of directors to at least reach a
                                              break-even point, even if it couldn't make a profit (unfortunately,
                                              the administrator was so zealous about trying to get as much done for
                                              free as possible that he ended up alienating most of the
                                              volunteers...and the program basically folded.)
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