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Fishnet Stockings

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  • Cactusneedle
    Hi. I am fairly new to the group. I have been lurking, getting the feel of everything. My husband and I do cowboy reenactments, date line 1870 - 1899. It
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 2, 2007
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      Hi. I am fairly new to the group. I have been lurking, getting the feel of everything.

      My husband and I do cowboy reenactments, date line 1870 - 1899. It has been generally accepted that fishnet stockings are "Hollywood" and therefore inappropriate for period correct costuming. However, someone in our local community claims to have evidence to support the authenticity of their use during our timeframe (and dating back to the 1400s). She will only share her information if you email her privately. She told us of this "great discovery" on a forum, but will not share her sources there.

      My question is: can anyone direct me to research on this topic? Google does not come up with much. Thanks in advance.

      Shirley


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    • Pierre & Sandy Pettinger
      At 12:39 PM 9/2/2007, you wrote: I have no expertise in this area. Why won t this person share their source? I would be very suspicious of anyone who claims
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 3, 2007
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        At 12:39 PM 9/2/2007, you wrote:

        I have no expertise in this area. Why won't this person share their
        source? I would be very suspicious of anyone who claims they have
        documentation for something and refuse to tell anyone except
        "privately." What do they gain? What does the community gain?

        Pierre

        >Hi. I am fairly new to the group. I have been lurking, getting the
        >feel of everything.
        >
        >My husband and I do cowboy reenactments, date line 1870 - 1899. It
        >has been generally accepted that fishnet stockings are "Hollywood"
        >and therefore inappropriate for period correct costuming. However,
        >someone in our local community claims to have evidence to support
        >the authenticity of their use during our timeframe (and dating back
        >to the 1400s). She will only share her information if you email her
        >privately. She told us of this "great discovery" on a forum, but
        >will not share her sources there.
        >
        >My question is: can anyone direct me to research on this topic?
        >Google does not come up with much. Thanks in advance.
        >
        >Shirley
        >
        >" Cactusneedle "

        "Those Who Fail To Learn History
        Are Doomed to Repeat It;
        Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
        Why They Are Simply Doomed.

        Achemdro'hm
        "The Illusion of Historical Fact"
        -- C.Y. 4971

        Andromeda
      • Don McCunn
        Shirley, What an intriguing question. I did a little research. According to the Fairchild Dictionary of Fashion Fishnet underwear was originally worn by
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 3, 2007
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          Shirley,

          What an intriguing question. I did a little research. According to the
          Fairchild Dictionary of Fashion Fishnet underwear was originally worn
          by Norwegian explorers and the Norwegian Army. (They must have gotten
          tangled up in fishnets when they were going out to their boats and
          decided to make it a fashion statement <smile>.)

          I found another article that said "From this start, Danskin (founded
          in 1882) soon came to dominate the market for clothing worn while
          dancing. The Goodmans introduced the first knit tights and leotards,
          and also pioneered the production of such dance standards as fishnet
          stockings."

          http://www.enotes.com/company-histories/danskin-inc

          So if they are doing it on a production basis, they must have been
          around before as something made by hand.

          There was also a reference to fishnets being worn by prostitutes. So
          my guess is that actresses and dancers in those times were usually
          considered loose women. And fishnets would have been displayed onstage.

          Back to my real job now.

          Best,
          Don McCunn
          http://How-to-Make-Sewing-Patterns.com/

          > Hi. I am fairly new to the group. I have been lurking, getting the
          feel of everything.
          >
          > My husband and I do cowboy reenactments, date line 1870 - 1899.
          It has been generally accepted that fishnet stockings are "Hollywood"
          and therefore inappropriate for period correct costuming. However,
          someone in our local community claims to have evidence to support the
          authenticity of their use during our timeframe (and dating back to the
          1400s). She will only share her information if you email her
          privately. She told us of this "great discovery" on a forum, but will
          not share her sources there.
          >
          > My question is: can anyone direct me to research on this topic?
          Google does not come up with much. Thanks in advance.
          >
          > Shirley
        • Cactusneedle
          Thanks, Don! I am also wondering if they were the same back then as what we call fishnet today. I believe they are wanting them for saloon girls, but I don t
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 3, 2007
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            Thanks, Don! I am also wondering if they were the same back then as what we call fishnet today. I believe they are wanting them for saloon girls, but I don't know that I have ever seen a picture of a saloon girl or showgirl wearing fishnets. Granted, I have not seen every photo ever taken, just that the ones I have seen, the women are wearing regular stockings. Guess I will have to keep looking! lol

            Shirley

            Don McCunn <Don@...> wrote:
            Shirley,

            What an intriguing question. I did a little research. According to the
            Fairchild Dictionary of Fashion Fishnet underwear was originally worn
            by Norwegian explorers and the Norwegian Army. (They must have gotten
            tangled up in fishnets when they were going out to their boats and
            decided to make it a fashion statement <smile>.)

            I found another article that said "From this start, Danskin (founded
            in 1882) soon came to dominate the market for clothing worn while
            dancing. The Goodmans introduced the first knit tights and leotards,
            and also pioneered the production of such dance standards as fishnet
            stockings."

            http://www.enotes.com/company-histories/danskin-inc

            So if they are doing it on a production basis, they must have been
            around before as something made by hand.

            There was also a reference to fishnets being worn by prostitutes. So
            my guess is that actresses and dancers in those times were usually
            considered loose women. And fishnets would have been displayed onstage.

            Back to my real job now.

            Best,
            Don McCunn
            http://How-to-Make-Sewing-Patterns.com/

            >


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          • msgoldrush@aol.com
            Hello, just thought I d put in my two cents worth...I have a feeling the whole saloon girl fishnet stocking thing was a hollywood b-movie invention. I also
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 4, 2007
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              Hello, just thought I'd put in my two cents worth...I have a feeling the
              whole saloon girl fishnet stocking thing was a hollywood b-movie invention. I
              also have seen many old theatrical photos and for the most part the performers
              wore tights..generally pink. I suppose it is possible that women entertainers
              may have worn fishnets..but I think most women who worked in saloons wore
              regular clothing. I saw one photo where the serving women were wearing the
              hideous "mother hubbard" dresses. I will be following this thread as I have been
              wondering about this for a long time, also!
              T. C. aka Ginny Morgan



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            • Curtis
              ... Actually, according to my theater history classes, theater people have been regarded as little better than prostitutes throughout most of history
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 4, 2007
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                --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "Don McCunn" <Don@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > There was also a reference to fishnets being worn by prostitutes. So
                > my guess is that actresses and dancers in those times were usually
                > considered loose women. And fishnets would have been displayed onstage.


                Actually, according to my theater history classes, theater people have
                been regarded as little better than prostitutes throughout most of
                history (considering some of the acts that were performed onstage
                during the height of the Roman Empire's decadence, it's easy enough to
                see where it started...plus, in the common eye, actors and actresses
                were being paid to be someone else, which aroused suspicions as to
                their moral nature during the early Middle Ages).
              • Cactusneedle
                Yep - the mother hubbard dress was very practical for the working woman. :) Shirley msgoldrush@aol.com wrote: I saw one photo where the serving women were
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 4, 2007
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                  Yep - the "mother hubbard' dress was very practical for the working woman. :)

                  Shirley

                  msgoldrush@... wrote:
                  I saw one photo where the serving women were wearing the
                  hideous "mother hubbard" dresses.


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                • Randolph Keator
                  If memeory serves me correctly, fishnets were first introduced by circus acrobtic females in the mid/late 1800 s in Austria and France. They were brought to
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 4, 2007
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                    If memeory serves me correctly, fishnets were first introduced by circus acrobtic females in the mid/late 1800's in Austria and France. They were brought to the US by circus' that had toured in Europe and thought that the attire added "pizazz" to the girls in the trapeze and horse acts.

                    Randy


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                  • Cactusneedle
                    Were they the same as what we today call fishnets ? Shirley Randolph Keator wrote: If memeory serves me correctly, fishnets were first
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 4, 2007
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                      Were they the same as what we today call "fishnets"?

                      Shirley

                      Randolph Keator <rkeator@...> wrote:
                      If memeory serves me correctly, fishnets were first introduced by circus acrobtic females in the mid/late 1800's in Austria and France. They were brought to the US by circus' that had toured in Europe and thought that the attire added "pizazz" to the girls in the trapeze and horse acts.

                      Randy

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                    • Don McCunn
                      Shirley, This quest is driving me crazy. I found a reference to can can dancers wearing fishnet stockings. The Can-Can is said to be the start of public
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 5, 2007
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                        Shirley,

                        This quest is driving me crazy. I found a reference to can can dancers
                        wearing fishnet stockings.

                        "The Can-Can is said to be the start of public nudity, because of the
                        bare legs above the stockings to the frilly panties, which at the time
                        was very indecent. Eventually the Can Can costume consisted of
                        sporting fishnet stockings, high heels, bustiers, feathers and frilly
                        skirts. The word Burlesque first came into use in the 16th. "

                        Best,
                        Don McCunn


                        > Thanks, Don! I am also wondering if they were the same back then as
                        what we call fishnet today. I believe they are wanting them for
                        saloon girls, but I don't know that I have ever seen a picture of a
                        saloon girl or showgirl wearing fishnets. Granted, I have not seen
                        every photo ever taken, just that the ones I have seen, the women are
                        wearing regular stockings. Guess I will have to keep looking! lol
                        >
                        > Shirley
                      • Randolph Keator
                        Somewhat the same in appearance. Keep in mind there wasn t use of lycra for elasticity so most of the tights or stockings were very time comsuming and
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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                          Somewhat the same in appearance. Keep in mind there wasn't use of lycra for elasticity so most of the tights or stockings were very time comsuming and expensive to weave. The diamond pattern which is the most common was probably pretty close to the same as we now associate with "fishnets".

                          Randy

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Cactusneedle
                          To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 3:38 PM
                          Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] Re: Fishnet Stockings


                          Were they the same as what we today call "fishnets"?


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                        • Cactusneedle
                          Don - I agree with you! lol There are references to them, but no specific dates as to when they began to be used. I did learn from the person who first
                          Message 12 of 16 , Sep 9, 2007
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                            Don -

                            I agree with you! lol There are references to them, but no specific dates as to when they began to be used.

                            I did learn from the person who first posted the topic on another forum that their source was Wikepedia, which I have since learned is not an historically reliable source. She has since backed down on claiming authenticity, but I am still searching. :)

                            Shirley

                            Don McCunn <Don@...> wrote:
                            Shirley,

                            This quest is driving me crazy. I found a reference to can can dancers
                            wearing fishnet stockings.

                            "The Can-Can is said to be the start of public nudity, because of the
                            bare legs above the stockings to the frilly panties, which at the time
                            was very indecent. Eventually the Can Can costume consisted of
                            sporting fishnet stockings, high heels, bustiers, feathers and frilly
                            skirts. The word Burlesque first came into use in the 16th. "

                            Best,
                            Don McCunn




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                          • Don McCunn
                            Shirley, I agree with you that Wikepedia is not necessarily a reliable source. A couple of thoughts here. Fishnet stockings could be called fishnet because
                            Message 13 of 16 , Sep 10, 2007
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                              Shirley,

                              I agree with you that Wikepedia is not necessarily a reliable source.
                              A couple of thoughts here.

                              Fishnet stockings could be called fishnet because they look like the
                              nets used to catch fish. It seems plausible to me that the knot used
                              to tie fishnets could very well have been used to make the early
                              version of these stockings. A lot of work in previous centuries was
                              done by hand. And it seems to me that nets for fish have probably been
                              around since prehistory. Maybe the first fishnet stockings were
                              actually fishnets that were too old to be useful for fishing and were
                              hence converted to leg coverings. In the peasant world they really did
                              believe in waste not want not.

                              The other image that comes to mind is chain mail which has been around
                              a long time as well. Visually there seems to be a lot of similarity
                              between the appearance and actually the concept of chain mail and
                              fishnets--to protect and breathe.

                              So my guess is that fishnet stockings could very well have been around
                              a long time before any one thought to record their existence or the
                              records have simply been lost.

                              I did find a reference to the date for the beginning of knit stockings.

                              "The story begins in 1589. That was when the English churchman
                              Reverend William Lee invented the world's first knitting machine and
                              started to make hosiery out of cotton, wool and silk. "

                              http://www.stockingshq.com/articles/history/stockingshistory.htm

                              Best,
                              Don McCunn

                              > Don -
                              >
                              > I agree with you! lol There are references to them, but no
                              specific dates as to when they began to be used.
                              >
                              > I did learn from the person who first posted the topic on another
                              forum that their source was Wikepedia, which I have since learned is
                              not an historically reliable source. She has since backed down on
                              claiming authenticity, but I am still searching. :)
                              >
                              > Shirley
                            • Curtis
                              ... forum that their source was Wikepedia, which I have since learned is not an historically reliable source. She has since backed down on claiming
                              Message 14 of 16 , Sep 10, 2007
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                                --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Cactusneedle
                                <arizonahousewife@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I did learn from the person who first posted the topic on another
                                forum that their source was Wikepedia, which I have since learned is
                                not an historically reliable source. She has since backed down on
                                claiming authenticity, but I am still searching. :)
                                ---------------------------------------------------------------------

                                It may still be worth looking at the Wikipedia article...many of the
                                entries there have citations listing the sources of the information
                                posted, there may be something there that points you in a direction
                                that will help you out. By itself, no, I wouldn't consider a
                                Wikipedia article an accurate source...but if it's got a source
                                listed, that proves to be reliable...well, that changes things.
                              • Cactusneedle
                                Actually, I did visit Wikipedia but found nothing to support what they were claiming. Don t know if I wasn t looking right, or what. Cactus ... forum that
                                Message 15 of 16 , Sep 10, 2007
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                                  Actually, I did visit Wikipedia but found nothing to support what they were claiming. Don't know if I wasn't looking right, or what.

                                  Cactus

                                  Curtis <gckidd@...> wrote:
                                  --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Cactusneedle
                                  <arizonahousewife@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I did learn from the person who first posted the topic on another
                                  forum that their source was Wikepedia, which I have since learned is
                                  not an historically reliable source. She has since backed down on
                                  claiming authenticity, but I am still searching. :)
                                  ----------------------------------------------------------

                                  It may still be worth looking at the Wikipedia article...many of the
                                  entries there have citations listing the sources of the information
                                  posted, there may be something there that points you in a direction
                                  that will help you out. By itself, no, I wouldn't consider a
                                  Wikipedia article an accurate source...but if it's got a source
                                  listed, that proves to be reliable...well, that changes things.






                                  " Cactusneedle "


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                                • Stephanie Barrett
                                  Wikipedia has a page that list errors found in Encyclopedia Brittanica, so I guess It s as reliable as the next source!
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Sep 10, 2007
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                                    Wikipedia has a page that list errors found in Encyclopedia Brittanica, so I guess It's as reliable as the next source!
                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Errors_in_the_encyclopedia_brittanica

                                    Curtis <gckidd@...> wrote:
                                    --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Cactusneedle
                                    <arizonahousewife@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I did learn from the person who first posted the topic on another
                                    forum that their source was Wikepedia, which I have since learned is
                                    not an historically reliable source. She has since backed down on
                                    claiming authenticity, but I am still searching. :)
                                    ----------------------------------------------------------

                                    It may still be worth looking at the Wikipedia article...many of the
                                    entries there have citations listing the sources of the information
                                    posted, there may be something there that points you in a direction
                                    that will help you out. By itself, no, I wouldn't consider a
                                    Wikipedia article an accurate source...but if it's got a source
                                    listed, that proves to be reliable...well, that changes things.






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