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Fortuny Pleats question

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  • mpareja_007
    Hi everyone and Happy Thanks Giving. I am doing the musical A Funny thing happened on the way to the Forum, and I need to crinkle a lot of fabric. I read
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 23 8:33 AM
      Hi everyone and Happy Thanks Giving. I am doing the musical A Funny
      thing happened on the way to the Forum, and I need to crinkle a lot of
      fabric. I read Tara's page for crinkling fabric, great help, but since
      I'm doing this musical on a thight budget, I need some suggestions on
      what silky synthetic fabric crinkles the best and dyes the best. I
      probably wont find all the colors so I may have to dye it too.
      Your suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
      Thanks


      Marina
      Costumer
      Florida International University
    • Sylvia Rognstad
      Unfortunately you can t both crinkle and dye synthetics. Nylon dyes well but doesn t crinkle. Polyester crinkles well but doesn t dye. You can crinkle and
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 24 6:56 AM
        Unfortunately you can't both crinkle and dye synthetics. Nylon dyes
        well but doesn't crinkle. Polyester crinkles well but doesn't dye.
        You can crinkle and dye silk, although the pleats won't be permanent.

        Sylrog

        On Nov 23, 2006, at 9:33 AM, mpareja_007 wrote:

        > Hi everyone and Happy Thanks Giving. I am doing the musical A Funny
        > thing happened on the way to the Forum, and I need to crinkle a lot of
        > fabric. I read Tara's page for crinkling fabric, great help, but since
        > I'm doing this musical on a thight budget, I need some suggestions on
        > what silky synthetic fabric crinkles the best and dyes the best. I
        > probably wont find all the colors so I may have to dye it too.
        > Your suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
        > Thanks
        >
        > Marina
        > Costumer
        > Florida International University
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Alexadbw@aol.com
        In a message dated 11/24/2006 8:57:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mpareja_007@yahoo.com writes: I need some suggestions on what silky synthetic fabric
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 24 7:06 AM
          In a message dated 11/24/2006 8:57:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          mpareja_007@... writes:

          I need some suggestions on
          what silky synthetic fabric crinkles the best and dyes the best. I
          probably wont find all the colors so I may have to dye it too


          acetate will be a good choice and it is fairly cheap....urrh, ummm.
          inexpensive! LOL.
          You can probably find several different weaves in it as well.
          (http://www.dharmatrading.com/fabric/)
          Rayon is another, and maybe an even better choice. Check the Dharma site for
          white Rayon and other white fabrics for dyeing.

          _http://www.dharmatrading.com/fabric/_ (http://www.dharmatrading.com/fabric/)


          Alexa.....who is putting off working on Magi costurmes that need to be done
          yesterday!!! ; - )






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Sylvia Rognstad
          Acetate doesn t like to get wet very well. And rayon isn t stiff enough to crinkle, and the pleats, if you can achieve them, won t be permanent. ... [Non-text
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 24 7:22 AM
            Acetate doesn't like to get wet very well. And rayon isn't stiff
            enough to crinkle, and the pleats, if you can achieve them, won't be
            permanent.

            On Nov 24, 2006, at 8:06 AM, Alexadbw@... wrote:

            >
            > In a message dated 11/24/2006 8:57:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            > mpareja_007@... writes:
            >
            > I need some suggestions on
            > what silky synthetic fabric crinkles the best and dyes the best. I
            > probably wont find all the colors so I may have to dye it too
            >
            > acetate will be a good choice and it is fairly cheap....urrh, ummm.
            > inexpensive! LOL.
            > You can probably find several different weaves in it as well.
            > (http://www.dharmatrading.com/fabric/)
            > Rayon is another, and maybe an even better choice. Check the Dharma
            > site for
            > white Rayon and other white fabrics for dyeing.
            >
            > _http://www.dharmatrading.com/fabric/_
            > (http://www.dharmatrading.com/fabric/)
            >
            >
            > Alexa.....who is putting off working on Magi costurmes that need to
            > be done
            > yesterday!!! ; - )
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Alexadbw@aol.com
            In a message dated 11/24/2006 11:30:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sylvia@ntw.net writes: Acetate doesn t like to get wet very well. And rayon isn t stiff
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 24 12:16 PM
              In a message dated 11/24/2006 11:30:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              sylvia@... writes:

              Acetate doesn't like to get wet very well. And rayon isn't stiff
              enough to crinkle, and the pleats, if you can achieve them, won't be
              permanent.



              Acetate may not like it, but wetting and twisting would achieve the look. A
              lot of the tiered crinkle skirts are made of rayon..... I have had a couple
              my self and they hold that type of "pleat" very well. I would agree that a
              normal pressed pleat would not hold up or look good in either of these
              thinner fabrics needed for the Fortuny.


              There is a good bit of information on the subject on the Costumers Manifesto
              web site. After looking at the methods used ( they did not recommend a
              particular fiber) I think even nylon or polyester might work, since high heat is
              used. It would just have to withstand the high (boiling) temperature. One
              thing I have learned is that the most important part of pressing, or (in this
              case, UN pressing LOL) is letting the fabric cool completely in the desired
              form.
              Alexa


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Sylvia Rognstad
              I didnt think acetate took dye very well, but it s been awhile since I tried, so I m not sure. And the rayon I was thinking of is pretty soft. A crisper
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 24 4:35 PM
                I didnt think acetate took dye very well, but it's been awhile since I
                tried, so I'm not sure. And the rayon I was thinking of is pretty
                soft. A crisper rayon would work but the pleats still will come out
                with washing. I think polyester works the best and the pleats stay
                in with washing, as I recall, but you can't dye poly more than a pastel
                shade.

                On Nov 24, 2006, at 1:16 PM, Alexadbw@... wrote:

                >
                > In a message dated 11/24/2006 11:30:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                > sylvia@... writes:
                >
                > Acetate doesn't like to get wet very well. And rayon isn't stiff
                > enough to crinkle, and the pleats, if you can achieve them, won't be
                > permanent.
                >
                > Acetate may not like it, but wetting and twisting would achieve the
                > look. A
                > lot of the tiered crinkle skirts are made of rayon..... I have had a
                > couple
                > my self and they hold that type of "pleat" very well. I would agree
                > that a
                > normal pressed pleat would not hold up or look good in either of these
                > thinner fabrics needed for the Fortuny.
                >
                >
                > There is a good bit of information on the subject on the Costumers
                > Manifesto
                > web site. After looking at the methods used ( they did not recommend a
                > particular fiber) I think even nylon or polyester might work, since
                > high heat is
                > used. It would just have to withstand the high (boiling) temperature.
                > One
                > thing I have learned is that the most important part of pressing, or
                > (in this
                > case, UN pressing LOL) is letting the fabric cool completely in the
                > desired
                > form.
                > Alexa
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Alexadbw@aol.com
                In a message dated 11/24/2006 8:30:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sylvia@ntw.net writes: And the rayon I was thinking of is pretty soft. A crisper rayon would
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 25 6:49 AM
                  In a message dated 11/24/2006 8:30:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  sylvia@... writes:

                  And the rayon I was thinking of is pretty
                  soft. A crisper rayon would work but the pleats still will come out
                  with washing.
                  This type of garment is twisted and knotted to dry, unless you have (the
                  patience to do it)the pleats in a certain pattern.


                  I think polyester works the best and the pleats stay
                  in with washing,......

                  That is true, and it would certainly save on drying time.... a precious
                  commodity with nightly shows!
                  A big bonus with Poly is that it is readily available in a wide variety
                  hues, tints, tones and shades as well as weights, usually as lining fabrics.

                  Alexa




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • rebecca bunny flower
                  I ve had great success dyeing poly bright colors with disperse dyes, but it has do be done in an extremely ventilated area, and I wore a gas mask. (It wasn t
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 25 7:07 AM
                    I've had great success dyeing poly bright colors with disperse dyes, but it
                    has do be done in an extremely ventilated area, and I wore a gas mask. (It
                    wasn't easy, but I had a lot of fun doing it, maybe because I am especially
                    weird.)

                    I got mine from here: http://www.prochemical.com/catalog/disperse.htm and
                    instructions are here:
                    http://www.prochemical.com/directions.htm#PROsperse%20Disperse%20Dyes
                    I'd suggest seriously reading the directions to decide if it's something
                    you're willing to attempt.

                    I'd like to reiterate, do not attempt this without ventilation and a mask.
                    Don't do it anywhere near pets or other people who aren't similarly
                    protected. Those are some noxious chemicals. The results were worth the
                    trouble for me (I had to dye some polyester "fredericks of hollywood"-type
                    corsets that were needed that week, and they came out bright and beautiful),
                    but probably wouldn't be worth it to many others.

                    Rebecca

                    On 11/24/06, Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I didnt think acetate took dye very well, but it's been awhile since I
                    > tried, so I'm not sure. And the rayon I was thinking of is pretty
                    > soft. A crisper rayon would work but the pleats still will come out
                    > with washing. I think polyester works the best and the pleats stay
                    > in with washing, as I recall, but you can't dye poly more than a pastel
                    > shade.
                    >
                    >
                    > .
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Aurora Celeste
                    You can do semi-permanent fortuny pleats on silk if you have a well-ventilated craft room: http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/makingem/Tips/CrushSilk.htm I ve
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 25 7:21 AM
                      You can do semi-permanent fortuny pleats on silk if you have a
                      well-ventilated craft room:

                      http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/makingem/Tips/CrushSilk.htm

                      I've used the technique and after washing you just crinkle up again and dry
                      in the dryer, and the pleats stay well.

                      Aurora


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Sylvia Rognstad
                      I was pleasantly surprised once when I pleated a poly/cotton combo fabric to make a knife-pleated ruffle for a dress. I used a vinegar/water spray and a hot
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 25 8:54 AM
                        I was pleasantly surprised once when I pleated a poly/cotton combo
                        fabric to make a knife-pleated ruffle for a dress. I used a
                        vinegar/water spray and a hot iron. I thought for sure the pleats
                        would come out in washing but they actually stayed in. So I think if
                        you use polyester the crinkles might stay in without having to retwist.
                        I think the reason commercially crinkled rayons stay crinkled
                        throughout washing is the chemical process they use, which we can't
                        duplicate in a costume shop.

                        Sylrog

                        On Nov 25, 2006, at 8:21 AM, Aurora Celeste wrote:

                        > You can do semi-permanent fortuny pleats on silk if you have a
                        > well-ventilated craft room:
                        >
                        > http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/makingem/Tips/CrushSilk.htm
                        >
                        > I've used the technique and after washing you just crinkle up again
                        > and dry
                        > in the dryer, and the pleats stay well.
                        >
                        > Aurora
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Sylvia Rognstad
                        Something just occurred to me in regard to the poly/cotton pleated ruffle. It is possible the garment was dry cleaned instead of washed, in which case, that
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 25 8:58 AM
                          Something just occurred to me in regard to the poly/cotton pleated
                          ruffle. It is possible the garment was dry cleaned instead of washed,
                          in which case, that might have been why the pleats didn't come out.
                          But it was just a petticoat, so it could have been washed. I'll have
                          to try the technique again and see what happens with washing.

                          Sylrog

                          On Nov 25, 2006, at 8:21 AM, Aurora Celeste wrote:

                          > You can do semi-permanent fortuny pleats on silk if you have a
                          > well-ventilated craft room:
                          >
                          > http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/makingem/Tips/CrushSilk.htm
                          >
                          > I've used the technique and after washing you just crinkle up again
                          > and dry
                          > in the dryer, and the pleats stay well.
                          >
                          > Aurora
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Alexadbw@aol.com
                          In a message dated 11/25/2006 12:00:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sylvia@ntw.net writes: I think the reason commercially crinkled rayons stay crinkled
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 25 9:09 AM
                            In a message dated 11/25/2006 12:00:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                            sylvia@... writes:

                            I think the reason commercially crinkled rayons stay crinkled
                            throughout washing is the chemical process they use, which we can't
                            duplicate in a costume shop.




                            Actually, you have to re-twist them every time you wash them, and it
                            **does** take a while to dry even in the dryer.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Sylvia Rognstad
                            Do you? I guess I ve never bought a crinkled skirt. I know the polyester crinkled fabric stays throughout washing. Again, it s the chemical process. Maybe
                            Message 13 of 25 , Nov 25 9:39 AM
                              Do you? I guess I've never bought a crinkled skirt. I know the
                              polyester crinkled fabric stays throughout washing. Again, it's the
                              chemical process. Maybe they cant do that on natural fibers.

                              On Nov 25, 2006, at 10:09 AM, Alexadbw@... wrote:

                              >
                              > In a message dated 11/25/2006 12:00:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                              > sylvia@... writes:
                              >
                              > I think the reason commercially crinkled rayons stay crinkled
                              > throughout washing is the chemical process they use, which we can't
                              > duplicate in a costume shop.
                              >
                              > Actually, you have to re-twist them every time you wash them, and it
                              > **does** take a while to dry even in the dryer.
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Stickfries@aol.com
                              You actually can dye Polyester, but you need fiber specific dye and the poly-developer. ALJO in NYC sells it. I dye poly all the time. ... From:
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 25 12:13 PM
                                You actually can dye Polyester, but you need fiber specific dye and the poly-developer. ALJO in NYC sells it. I dye poly all the time.


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: sylvia@...
                                To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 9:56 AM
                                Subject: Re: [TheCostumersManifesto] Fortuny Pleats question


                                Unfortunately you can't both crinkle and dye synthetics. Nylon dyes
                                well but doesn't crinkle. Polyester crinkles well but doesn't dye.
                                You can crinkle and dye silk, although the pleats won't be permanent.

                                Sylrog

                                On Nov 23, 2006, at 9:33 AM, mpareja_007 wrote:

                                > Hi everyone and Happy Thanks Giving. I am doing the musical A Funny
                                > thing happened on the way to the Forum, and I need to crinkle a lot of
                                > fabric. I read Tara's page for crinkling fabric, great help, but since
                                > I'm doing this musical on a thight budget, I need some suggestions on
                                > what silky synthetic fabric crinkles the best and dyes the best. I
                                > probably wont find all the colors so I may have to dye it too.
                                > Your suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
                                > Thanks
                                >
                                > Marina
                                > Costumer
                                > Florida International University
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Sylvia Rognstad
                                I was aware of the disperse dyes for poly, but thought the process sounded so toxic that I never wanted to try it, let alone recommend it. I guess if you have
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 25 5:44 PM
                                  I was aware of the disperse dyes for poly, but thought the process
                                  sounded so toxic that I never wanted to try it, let alone recommend it.
                                  I guess if you have a respirator it is ok. And it wasn't difficult?

                                  On Nov 25, 2006, at 8:07 AM, rebecca bunny flower wrote:

                                  > I've had great success dyeing poly bright colors with disperse dyes,
                                  > but it
                                  > has do be done in an extremely ventilated area, and I wore a gas
                                  > mask. (It
                                  > wasn't easy, but I had a lot of fun doing it, maybe because I am
                                  > especially
                                  > weird.)
                                  >
                                  > I got mine from here: http://www.prochemical.com/catalog/disperse.htm
                                  > and
                                  > instructions are here:
                                  > http://www.prochemical.com/directions.htm#PROsperse%20Disperse%20Dyes
                                  > I'd suggest seriously reading the directions to decide if it's
                                  > something
                                  > you're willing to attempt.
                                  >
                                  > I'd like to reiterate, do not attempt this without ventilation and a
                                  > mask.
                                  > Don't do it anywhere near pets or other people who aren't similarly
                                  > protected. Those are some noxious chemicals. The results were worth
                                  > the
                                  > trouble for me (I had to dye some polyester "fredericks of
                                  > hollywood"-type
                                  > corsets that were needed that week, and they came out bright and
                                  > beautiful),
                                  > but probably wouldn't be worth it to many others.
                                  >
                                  > Rebecca
                                  >
                                  > On 11/24/06, Sylvia Rognstad <sylvia@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I didnt think acetate took dye very well, but it's been awhile
                                  > since I
                                  > > tried, so I'm not sure. And the rayon I was thinking of is pretty
                                  > > soft. A crisper rayon would work but the pleats still will come out
                                  > > with washing. I think polyester works the best and the pleats stay
                                  > > in with washing, as I recall, but you can't dye poly more than a
                                  > pastel
                                  > > shade.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > .
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Costume Lady
                                  Marina - check out www.dharmatrading.com they carry dyes for all types of product and are fairly safe to use and they sell all types of fabric (some crinkle)
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 27 7:26 AM
                                    Marina - check out www.dharmatrading.com they carry dyes for all
                                    types of product and are fairly safe to use and they sell all types
                                    of fabric (some crinkle) at decent prices.

                                    Cindy

                                    --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "mpareja_007"
                                    <mpareja_007@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi everyone and Happy Thanks Giving. I am doing the musical A
                                    Funny
                                    > thing happened on the way to the Forum, and I need to crinkle a
                                    lot of
                                    > fabric. I read Tara's page for crinkling fabric, great help, but
                                    since
                                    > I'm doing this musical on a thight budget, I need some suggestions
                                    on
                                    > what silky synthetic fabric crinkles the best and dyes the best. I
                                    > probably wont find all the colors so I may have to dye it too.
                                    > Your suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
                                    > Thanks
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Marina
                                    > Costumer
                                    > Florida International University
                                    >
                                  • Michelle Davidson
                                    Hello everyone! I need some help to support a debate. I am a faculty member at a midsize university: University of Nevada, Reno. I have an MFA in theatre
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Dec 7, 2006
                                      Hello everyone! I need some help to support a debate.
                                      I am a faculty member at a midsize university:
                                      University of Nevada, Reno. I have an MFA in theatre
                                      technology with a costume design emphasis. I am the
                                      staff designer and costume shop manager for our
                                      theatre department. We are in the process of
                                      evaluating/redesigning our curriculum. The chair of
                                      our department, the lighting faculty member, the
                                      scenic faculty member, and the tech director had a
                                      meeting to discuss the techical curriculum. I was not
                                      invited or informed. When we next met to discuss
                                      curriculum, they presented their plan for the tech
                                      curriculum. Costumes were not part of it. (Along
                                      with running the costume shop, I teach 4 classes
                                      yearly.) I immediately asked where costumes were to
                                      be represented in the tech curriculum. I was told
                                      that they didn't realize/believe/know that costumes
                                      were considered tech! I was stunned speechless! I
                                      asked them where they thought costumes fit in, as they
                                      are not part of the performance aspect of teaching
                                      theatre, but along with set, lights, sound, props;
                                      costumes are technical support for theatrical
                                      productions. Now, I don't want anyone to think there
                                      was a shouting match or any nastiness was intended,
                                      but my feelings were a bit hurt and I am confused. As
                                      with faculty decisions everywhere, discussion is
                                      continuing. Please help me support my position that
                                      costume design and construction are, in fact, aspects
                                      of technical theatre.
                                      Thank you!
                                      Michelle (in Reno, but from the Dakotas!)

                                      In the name of the Pasta, and of the Sauce, and of the Garlic Toast, RAmen.
                                      http://www.venganza.org/index.htm

                                      __________________________________________________
                                      Do You Yahoo!?
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                                    • nbrookstaylor
                                      When I first read the question in the subject line, I had a vesceral reaction that said I am not a technician, I am an artist! . Then I read the rest of the
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Dec 7, 2006
                                        When I first read the question in the subject line, I had a vesceral
                                        reaction that said "I am not a technician, I am an artist!". Then I
                                        read the rest of the email, and realized you were talking about
                                        "performance" versus "technical", and understood your question.

                                        I absolutely believe that costumes are part of technical theatre, and
                                        where I work, the Production Manager and TD believe this in theory.
                                        In practice,however, costumes (and to a lesser extent props) seem to
                                        occupy this weird no-man's land. That is, as shop manager, I am
                                        pretty independant of the technical director. Costumes appears no
                                        where in Technical Theatre or Advanced Technical Theatre,or even the
                                        although students who wish to study costumes can take these classes
                                        and do their lab hours with me, as there are no costume classes (we
                                        only have 2 faculty members, and costumes is not represented).

                                        I have a theory, although I try not to think about it because it
                                        angers me, that our separation from "technical theatre" into something
                                        separate is because costumes are seen as "women's work", and thus
                                        unconsciously devalued. I also think that because people where clothes
                                        every day, they think doing costumes must be easy. I recently had the
                                        opportunity to show the props master how to make a piano cover and she
                                        was flabbergasted at the amount of time and effort it took (it was
                                        three layers and needed to fit the piano top perfectly). It took
                                        about an hour, and part of that was because I was showing her. I
                                        pointed out that some of the costumes we made for the most recent
                                        show, a wedding dress, for example, took about 17-18 hours total. She
                                        was just amazed at how long it took. She said that she was wondering
                                        what I was doing that made me so busy!

                                        So my 2 cents is that costume people are technicians and artists, but
                                        not some wierd third area of theatre production!

                                        Nadine

                                        Nadine Taylor
                                        Costume Shop Manager
                                        University of Rochester International Theatre Program

                                        --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Michelle Davidson
                                        <adastra33@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello everyone! I need some help to support a debate.
                                        > I am a faculty member at a midsize university:
                                        > University of Nevada, Reno. I have an MFA in theatre
                                        > technology with a costume design emphasis. I am the
                                        > staff designer and costume shop manager for our
                                        > theatre department. We are in the process of
                                        > evaluating/redesigning our curriculum. The chair of
                                        > our department, the lighting faculty member, the
                                        > scenic faculty member, and the tech director had a
                                        > meeting to discuss the techical curriculum. I was not
                                        > invited or informed. When we next met to discuss
                                        > curriculum, they presented their plan for the tech
                                        > curriculum. Costumes were not part of it. (Along
                                        > with running the costume shop, I teach 4 classes
                                        > yearly.) I immediately asked where costumes were to
                                        > be represented in the tech curriculum. I was told
                                        > that they didn't realize/believe/know that costumes
                                        > were considered tech! I was stunned speechless! I
                                        > asked them where they thought costumes fit in, as they
                                        > are not part of the performance aspect of teaching
                                        > theatre, but along with set, lights, sound, props;
                                        > costumes are technical support for theatrical
                                        > productions. Now, I don't want anyone to think there
                                        > was a shouting match or any nastiness was intended,
                                        > but my feelings were a bit hurt and I am confused. As
                                        > with faculty decisions everywhere, discussion is
                                        > continuing. Please help me support my position that
                                        > costume design and construction are, in fact, aspects
                                        > of technical theatre.
                                        > Thank you!
                                        > Michelle (in Reno, but from the Dakotas!)
                                        >
                                        > In the name of the Pasta, and of the Sauce, and of the Garlic Toast,
                                        RAmen.
                                        > http://www.venganza.org/index.htm
                                        >
                                        > __________________________________________________
                                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                        > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                        >
                                      • marina pareja
                                        Hi Michelle, I have the same position as you at Florida International University in Miami and I understand your predicament. You were stunned speechless! And
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Dec 7, 2006
                                          Hi Michelle, I have the same position as you at Florida International
                                          University in Miami and I understand your predicament. You were stunned
                                          speechless! And you should be! I had to read your email many times to make
                                          sure that I understood what I was reading. Who are these people? Do they
                                          have any knowledge of theatre production? Where do they think costumes come
                                          from? the air? As far as I know, in order to make costumes you have to have
                                          some kind specialization or knowledge in costume construction, and to me
                                          that makes it technical. Also if you look in any theatre production book,
                                          reference or academic, you will find that costumes are part of what is
                                          considered the production aspect of theater, together with light, sound,
                                          scenery, props, make up, etc, no matter how minimal these may be. Also, look
                                          at other University�s curriculums and you�ll see that costume design and
                                          construction are always under technical production classes. So let me tell
                                          you, the problem with these people is that they are misinformed.

                                          Good Luck

                                          Marina





                                          Marina Pareja
                                          Costume Shop Manager
                                          Werthiem Performing Arts Center
                                          Florida International University





                                          >From: Michelle Davidson <adastra33@...>
                                          >Reply-To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                          >To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                                          >Subject: [TheCostumersManifesto] Are costumers technicians?
                                          >Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 11:17:51 -0800 (PST)
                                          >
                                          >Hello everyone! I need some help to support a debate.
                                          > I am a faculty member at a midsize university:
                                          >University of Nevada, Reno. I have an MFA in theatre
                                          >technology with a costume design emphasis. I am the
                                          >staff designer and costume shop manager for our
                                          >theatre department. We are in the process of
                                          >evaluating/redesigning our curriculum. The chair of
                                          >our department, the lighting faculty member, the
                                          >scenic faculty member, and the tech director had a
                                          >meeting to discuss the techical curriculum. I was not
                                          >invited or informed. When we next met to discuss
                                          >curriculum, they presented their plan for the tech
                                          >curriculum. Costumes were not part of it. (Along
                                          >with running the costume shop, I teach 4 classes
                                          >yearly.) I immediately asked where costumes were to
                                          >be represented in the tech curriculum. I was told
                                          >that they didn't realize/believe/know that costumes
                                          >were considered tech! I was stunned speechless! I
                                          >asked them where they thought costumes fit in, as they
                                          >are not part of the performance aspect of teaching
                                          >theatre, but along with set, lights, sound, props;
                                          >costumes are technical support for theatrical
                                          >productions. Now, I don't want anyone to think there
                                          >was a shouting match or any nastiness was intended,
                                          >but my feelings were a bit hurt and I am confused. As
                                          >with faculty decisions everywhere, discussion is
                                          >continuing. Please help me support my position that
                                          >costume design and construction are, in fact, aspects
                                          >of technical theatre.
                                          >Thank you!
                                          >Michelle (in Reno, but from the Dakotas!)
                                          >
                                          >In the name of the Pasta, and of the Sauce, and of the Garlic Toast, RAmen.
                                          >http://www.venganza.org/index.htm
                                          >
                                          >__________________________________________________
                                          >Do You Yahoo!?
                                          >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                          >http://mail.yahoo.com
                                        • llsturts@greatlakes.net
                                          costume DESIGN set DESIGN prop DESIGN lighting DESIGN sound DESIGN What part of the word design don t they understand? That s the only reply needed, IMHO.
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Dec 7, 2006
                                            costume DESIGN
                                            set DESIGN
                                            prop DESIGN
                                            lighting DESIGN
                                            sound DESIGN

                                            What part of the word "design" don't they understand?

                                            That's the only reply needed, IMHO.

                                            ~lisa.s
                                          • David
                                            Well of course we are technicians. To believe otherwise is ludicrous. I think the leadership of your tech program needs to be re-examined. We would certainly
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Dec 8, 2006
                                              Well of course we are technicians. To believe otherwise is ludicrous.
                                              I think the leadership of your tech program needs to be re-examined.
                                              We would certainly never put up with this absurd attitude here.

                                              David Juby
                                              Head of Wardrobe
                                              Sheridan College
                                            • Curtis
                                              ... something ... As someone that has worked pretty much every aspect of technical theater, I take a little exception to your assumption. In my experience,
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Dec 8, 2006
                                                --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "nbrookstaylor"
                                                <nbrookstaylor@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I have a theory, although I try not to think about it because it
                                                > angers me, that our separation from "technical theatre" into
                                                something
                                                > separate is because costumes are seen as "women's work", and thus
                                                > unconsciously devalued.

                                                As someone that has worked pretty much every aspect of technical
                                                theater, I take a little exception to your assumption. In my
                                                experience, the separation between costumes (and props, sometimes)
                                                is due to the fact that technical directors just don't ever study
                                                that aspect in any detail. Every location I've ever worked at had
                                                competent costumers, the TD didn't need to be consulted for
                                                assistance with costume issues--but sets, lighting, sound, those
                                                were all domains where the TD was constantly wrangling issues.
                                                Because there's a lot of discussion back and forth between those
                                                branches, they tend to group together...they also end up having to
                                                work in the same space during the process of putting the show
                                                together (sound to a much lesser extent, as they come into the
                                                process relatively late in most productions), whereas costumes (and
                                                props) just kind of magically materialize from nowhere (in their
                                                eyes). We do our work in a different location, so we tend to be
                                                mentally filed under a different category.

                                                If you sit down and talk to them about it, then of course we're part
                                                of the technical side of things...but on a day to day basis,
                                                costumers and props designers spend so much time working
                                                independently that they become operators in their own domain, and
                                                it's a very rare TD that really succeeds in keeping them assimilated
                                                into the whole category.

                                                (Another thing is, so many costumers and props people tend to be
                                                designers, in their own right, whereas there are a lot of
                                                technicians who simply take what they are given by a designer and
                                                make it happen. It's creativity, focused in a different
                                                direction...but as we tend to think differently, there becomes a
                                                subconscious divide between the two.)
                                              • Sherry Ross
                                                When running a show why are custome changes left to the final rehearsal. In community theatre we costume designers are always left to the end and rushed for
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Dec 8, 2006
                                                  When running a show why are custome changes left to the final rehearsal. In community theatre we costume designers are always left to the end and rushed for changes. I can tell the directors you need more time but until dress rehearsal they refuse to include time for it.
                                                  Sherry
                                                  Brampton Music Theatre

                                                  Curtis <gckidd@...> wrote: --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "nbrookstaylor"
                                                  <nbrookstaylor@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > I have a theory, although I try not to think about it because it
                                                  > angers me, that our separation from "technical theatre" into
                                                  something
                                                  > separate is because costumes are seen as "women's work", and thus
                                                  > unconsciously devalued.

                                                  As someone that has worked pretty much every aspect of technical
                                                  theater, I take a little exception to your assumption. In my
                                                  experience, the separation between costumes (and props, sometimes)
                                                  is due to the fact that technical directors just don't ever study
                                                  that aspect in any detail. Every location I've ever worked at had
                                                  competent costumers, the TD didn't need to be consulted for
                                                  assistance with costume issues--but sets, lighting, sound, those
                                                  were all domains where the TD was constantly wrangling issues.
                                                  Because there's a lot of discussion back and forth between those
                                                  branches, they tend to group together...they also end up having to
                                                  work in the same space during the process of putting the show
                                                  together (sound to a much lesser extent, as they come into the
                                                  process relatively late in most productions), whereas costumes (and
                                                  props) just kind of magically materialize from nowhere (in their
                                                  eyes). We do our work in a different location, so we tend to be
                                                  mentally filed under a different category.

                                                  If you sit down and talk to them about it, then of course we're part
                                                  of the technical side of things...but on a day to day basis,
                                                  costumers and props designers spend so much time working
                                                  independently that they become operators in their own domain, and
                                                  it's a very rare TD that really succeeds in keeping them assimilated
                                                  into the whole category.

                                                  (Another thing is, so many costumers and props people tend to be
                                                  designers, in their own right, whereas there are a lot of
                                                  technicians who simply take what they are given by a designer and
                                                  make it happen. It's creativity, focused in a different
                                                  direction...but as we tend to think differently, there becomes a
                                                  subconscious divide between the two.)






                                                  Sherry Ross
                                                  Brampton Music Theatre
                                                  Youth Troupe Admin
                                                  Check out the Yahoo group..BMTyouth Troupe_Cinderella
                                                  www.BMTyouthtroupe_Cinderella.com


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Joe
                                                  I run across this attitude all the time. I try to ignore it mostly because with 20 years as a costumer, I can t fight that battle any more. Nothing back stage
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Dec 18, 2006
                                                    I run across this attitude all the time.
                                                    I try to ignore it mostly because with 20 years as a costumer, I can't fight
                                                    that battle any more.
                                                    Nothing back stage in theater, & film invoke character more than does costume design,
                                                    for what is Batman without his utility belt.
                                                    And to make that belt you need to able to vacu-form, mold latex, shape foam,
                                                    paint, and of course sew.
                                                    Infect, all of the skills used in the scene shop, outside of construction with wood, is
                                                    used in construction of costumes.
                                                    Added to the fact that the piece being constructed must move and be specific to the actor.
                                                    I could argue that costume construction is a more challenging discipline.
                                                  • jeannets
                                                    ... This is an interesting discussion. I generally refer to myself as a costume technician. I have been a stitcher, first hand, cutter/draper and shop
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Dec 28, 2006
                                                      --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <jocig@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > I run across this attitude all the time.
                                                      > I try to ignore it mostly because with 20 years as a costumer, I can't fight
                                                      > that battle any more.

                                                      This is an interesting discussion. I generally refer to myself as a costume technician. I
                                                      have been a stitcher, first hand, cutter/draper and shop manager. I think putting it that
                                                      way lets people know I am not a designer--something I've never had any interest in doing.
                                                      I think the comment about "women's work" is spot on. The other side of theatre
                                                      production (more male dominated) definitely has more union representation than
                                                      costumers. Why is that?

                                                      I was at a seminar given by someone who taught at an arts high school a few years ago.
                                                      This person was the tech. director of the theatre program. When I asked him about
                                                      costumes, he said it was all rented (!) My oldest daughter is a freshman theatre major at
                                                      the arts high school in our city. From what I've seen so far, their production classes don't
                                                      focus on costumes either. I gave a talk about costuming to the freshman theatre classes
                                                      and even the teacher was amazed that I knew how to make a pattern based on a sketch.

                                                      Jeanne
                                                      Milwaukee WI
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