Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: New Member with question

Expand Messages
  • tjchatham
    ... Wolfie, Don t know what book it s from, but I can translate the writing under it. It says in German to English... dark red velveteen coat...from 1570-1580
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 1, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "wolfiejinn" <roytoys@...> wrote:
      >
      > I am in love with this cloak Tara has posted on the Costumer Manifesto (well, considering I LIVE on the site, it shouldn't be a shock).
      >
      > http://www.costumes.org/history/kohler/328.jpg
      >
      > However, when I first found this cloak I *swear* I found a color version of this and that it was blue with the border trim embroidery a gold thread. Does anyone know what book/tract this is from? I cannot find any other reference on where this was taken. From the caption, it's likely an older publication, 1940s-1960s. Also, it's Germanic from the language. Other than that, I'm at a loss. I would dearly LOVE to create it, right down to the embroidery. The edging looks either frayed (likely) or perhaps a fur trimming? And what is the lining?
      >
      > If anyone can help with this I would be SO grateful. I am now off to peruse my books to decide what to put on my Greek chiton!
      >
      > Wolfie
      >
      Wolfie,
      Don't know what book it's from, but I can translate the writing under it. It says in German to English..."dark red velveteen coat...from 1570-1580" Sammet= cotton velvet.... Mantel = coat or cloak, rot = red, dunkel = dark.
      The thing is a short cape made of dark red velveteen... cotton velvet....with a high standup collar and some sort of button closure at the neck. The borders are a metalic woven braid (looks machine made) and that fuzzy edge is a very dense short fringe....the kind they used to put on the bottom of long coats and capes or even priest's black or bishop's red cassocks to keep the edges from fraying from use. The fringe could be cotton or wool.... I've seen both kinds. Wouldn't surprise me if it were lined in silk... that's an expensive looking garment. It's possibly a bishop's cape.... not a liturgical garment worn for liturgy, but a cape worn as part of bishop's "outside" clothing...worn over a red cassock.
      Tess
    • wolfiejinn
      Thanks for the translation! Well (lol) it s getting made out of blue cotton velvet cause that s what I bought. (grin) I do love the embroidery on that. How
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 1, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Thanks for the translation! Well (lol) it's getting made out of blue cotton velvet cause that's what I bought. (grin) I do love the embroidery on that. How could it be machine if it's dated 1570? Not much in the way of industrial weaving and embroidery machines anywhere that early, I should think. (pathetic sigh) It is gorgeous though.

        If it's red velvet, I would agree, it's likely a church garment of some sort, or at least worn by some church official. Hmmm. Fringe on the edges, you say? Since this is merely going to be a half cloak to replace the cheap, crappy half cloak that I bought over 10 years ago at one of my first Ren Faires and will hopefully grace the shoulders of a late Tudor gown later this year, I won't bother with the fringe. The buttons, or hooks, would work perfectly, as our faires and other assorted activities always seem to be windy.

        I thank you again for the help, Tess. 'Tis most appreciated!

        Wolfie

        --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "tjchatham" <tjchatham@...> wrote:

        > Wolfie,
        > Don't know what book it's from, but I can translate the writing under it. It says in German to English..."dark red velveteen coat...from 1570-1580" Sammet= cotton velvet.... Mantel = coat or cloak, rot = red, dunkel = dark.

        > The thing is a short cape made of dark red velveteen... cotton velvet....with a high standup collar and some sort of button closure at the neck. The borders are a metalic woven braid (looks machine made) and that fuzzy edge is a very dense short fringe....the kind they used to put on the bottom of long coats and capes or even priest's black or bishop's red cassocks to keep the edges from fraying from use. The fringe could be cotton or wool.... I've seen both kinds. Wouldn't surprise me if it were lined in silk... that's an expensive looking garment. It's possibly a bishop's cape.... not a liturgical garment worn for liturgy, but a cape worn as part of bishop's "outside" clothing...worn over a red cassock.
        > Tess
        >
      • tjchatham
        Wolfie, The style (quite a high collar and the seam across the shoulder... even the design on the border trim... which most likely is a machine woven tape....
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 2, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Wolfie,
          The style (quite a high collar and the seam across the shoulder... even the design on the border trim... which most likely is a machine woven tape.... probably silk or rayon and metallic threads) and the fabrics to me say that it's the date that's waaaaay off! I'd put the date on it more likely to be somewhere in the late 1800s or early 1900s although, if it is a bishop's garment... those styles held sway a whole lot longer than "lay" fashion styles, which changed with the whim of the king and court of the times.
          Methinks the style is more likely to be 1870-90. Someone mistook an "8" for a "5". If the thing had been hand made and hand embroidered from the 1500s, someone would have been more careful to match the design of the tape... right to left. It's off a half a repeat and to me, that looks a bit sloppy or careless. Braids such as this one could be made by hand.... on a loom... but the loomed ones usually look quite a bit more "thick" or substantial. This one appears to be quite thin. And I'd have to do some research to find out just when "velveteen" appeared on the scene. Maybe the name "Kohler" in that addy is the clue to it's true identity and date. There was a very famous German judge by that name in history in the 1880s... Josef Kohler. He practically rewrote the entire German jurisprudence... and taught law at Berlin University.... and professors dressed a bit like bishops in those days... or vice versa.
          Tess


          --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "wolfiejinn" <roytoys@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thanks for the translation! Well (lol) it's getting made out of blue cotton velvet cause that's what I bought. (grin) I do love the embroidery on that. How could it be machine if it's dated 1570? Not much in the way of industrial weaving and embroidery machines anywhere that early, I should think. (pathetic sigh) It is gorgeous though.
          >
          > If it's red velvet, I would agree, it's likely a church garment of some sort, or at least worn by some church official. Hmmm. Fringe on the edges, you say? Since this is merely going to be a half cloak to replace the cheap, crappy half cloak that I bought over 10 years ago at one of my first Ren Faires and will hopefully grace the shoulders of a late Tudor gown later this year, I won't bother with the fringe. The buttons, or hooks, would work perfectly, as our faires and other assorted activities always seem to be windy.
          >
          > I thank you again for the help, Tess. 'Tis most appreciated!
          >
          > Wolfie
          >
          > --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "tjchatham" <tjchatham@> wrote:
          >
          > > Wolfie,
          > > Don't know what book it's from, but I can translate the writing under it. It says in German to English..."dark red velveteen coat...from 1570-1580" Sammet= cotton velvet.... Mantel = coat or cloak, rot = red, dunkel = dark.
          >
          > > The thing is a short cape made of dark red velveteen... cotton velvet....with a high standup collar and some sort of button closure at the neck. The borders are a metalic woven braid (looks machine made) and that fuzzy edge is a very dense short fringe....the kind they used to put on the bottom of long coats and capes or even priest's black or bishop's red cassocks to keep the edges from fraying from use. The fringe could be cotton or wool.... I've seen both kinds. Wouldn't surprise me if it were lined in silk... that's an expensive looking garment. It's possibly a bishop's cape.... not a liturgical garment worn for liturgy, but a cape worn as part of bishop's "outside" clothing...worn over a red cassock.
          > > Tess
          > >
          >
        • Don McCunn
          Wolfie, That is from Carl Kohler s A History of Costume. I have an early 1963 edition of his book which is in black and white. In my edition that cloak is
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 3, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Wolfie,

            That is from Carl Kohler's "A History of Costume." I have an early 1963 edition of his book which is in black and white. In my edition that cloak is Fig. 330 on page 266.

            I just checked Amazon which has kept this book in print. The illustration you are interest in is still in the List of Illustrations. If you use Amazon's "Look Inside" feature and scroll to the description in the List of Illustrations, it gives the dimensions of the cape.

            http://www.amazon.com/History-Costume-Carl-Kohler/dp/0486210308/

            I see from the caption that the cape is from the Nurnberg Museum in Germany. I see they have a forthcoming website in English. But if you speak German, you might be able to find more on the cape there.

            http://www.gnm.de/index_en.html

            Best,
            Don McCunn
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/How-to-Make-Sewing-Patterns/

            > I am in love with this cloak Tara has posted on the Costumer Manifesto (well, considering I LIVE on the site, it shouldn't be a shock).
            >
            > http://www.costumes.org/history/kohler/328.jpg
            >
            > However, when I first found this cloak I *swear* I found a color version of this and that it was blue with the border trim embroidery a gold thread. Does anyone know what book/tract this is from? I cannot find any other reference on where this was taken. From the caption, it's likely an older publication, 1940s-1960s. Also, it's Germanic from the language. Other than that, I'm at a loss. I would dearly LOVE to create it, right down to the embroidery. The edging looks either frayed (likely) or perhaps a fur trimming? And what is the lining?
            >
            > If anyone can help with this I would be SO grateful. I am now off to peruse my books to decide what to put on my Greek chiton!
            >
            > Wolfie
            >
          • Valancy Gilliam
            LOL Thank you everyone for the help! Wow! While I was looking to recreate the cloak, I wasn t going to go for an exact look. (grin) I loved the embroidery
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 6, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              LOL Thank you everyone for the help! Wow! While I was looking to 'recreate'
              the cloak, I wasn't going to go for an exact look. (grin) I loved the
              embroidery and the cut of the cloak and such. However, as a holder of a
              bachelors honors in history, the information has not gone to waste. >:) I
              do believe I will give this book a look, though, Don, I thank you!

              I'm enjoying the convos on the list as well. Hope everyone has a good
              upcoming holiday weekend!

              Wolfie

              On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Don McCunn <
              Don@...> wrote:

              > Wolfie,
              >
              > That is from Carl Kohler's "A History of Costume." I have an early 1963
              > edition of his book which is in black and white. In my edition that cloak is
              > Fig. 330 on page 266.
              >
              > I just checked Amazon which has kept this book in print. The illustration
              > you are interest in is still in the List of Illustrations. If you use
              > Amazon's "Look Inside" feature and scroll to the description in the List of
              > Illustrations, it gives the dimensions of the cape.
              >
              > http://www.amazon.com/History-Costume-Carl-Kohler/dp/0486210308/
              >
              > I see from the caption that the cape is from the Nurnberg Museum in
              > Germany. I see they have a forthcoming website in English. But if you speak
              > German, you might be able to find more on the cape there.
              >
              > http://www.gnm.de/index_en.html
              >
              > Best,
              > Don McCunn
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/How-to-Make-Sewing-Patterns/
              >
              >
              > > I am in love with this cloak Tara has posted on the Costumer Manifesto
              > (well, considering I LIVE on the site, it shouldn't be a shock).
              > >
              > > http://www.costumes.org/history/kohler/328.jpg
              > >
              > > However, when I first found this cloak I *swear* I found a color version
              > of this and that it was blue with the border trim embroidery a gold thread.
              > Does anyone know what book/tract this is from? I cannot find any other
              > reference on where this was taken. From the caption, it's likely an older
              > publication, 1940s-1960s. Also, it's Germanic from the language. Other than
              > that, I'm at a loss. I would dearly LOVE to create it, right down to the
              > embroidery. The edging looks either frayed (likely) or perhaps a fur
              > trimming? And what is the lining?
              > >
              > > If anyone can help with this I would be SO grateful. I am now off to
              > peruse my books to decide what to put on my Greek chiton!
              > >
              > > Wolfie
              > >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.