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Re:Wage question

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  • catslave54
    It could be worse. We could have no arms or legs or live in China. It doesn t sound like she wants to do anything about the situation-- she just wants to winge
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 25, 2008
      It could be worse. We could have no arms or legs or live in China.
      It doesn't sound like she wants to do anything about the situation--
      she just wants to winge about it. I guess she could stay and be a
      martyr and go through years of this and end up bitter and bankrupt.
      OR--she could make a case for herself, do research about other pay
      scales and seek parity--that may help. I'll bet the scenic designer
      gets more money. OR--she could find a new job. She may have to go
      where the job is, but I know there are better paying jobs. She could
      also demand to hire her own staff for the summer and demand the same
      design fee for each show as the guest designers. She could do a time
      study as we have done (it's pretty enlightening--even to me). She
      could present the time study to the administration and make a case
      for a full time position--it is illegal to have someone work for part-
      time pay at full-time hours. I would submit this to both the
      administration and the head to the department. The head of the
      department already knows how much she is working -- he is just
      ignoring it. Is there a union on campus?? That always helps.
      And by the by, I am sick to death of people saying that they are
      doing this for love. You never hear a scenic designer say that.
      This is a job, like any other. How is she going to live on love at
      retirement? Love is not compensation for substandard wages. When
      you work in the arts you can't expect to be a billionaire, but you
      shouldn't be homeless either.

      Thank you, my rant is over,
      Sandy
    • Sylvia Rognstad
      ... Here here! I ll second that for sure. If more costume designers would speak up for themselves, we wouldn t be in this situation. Me, I ve lost a
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 25, 2008
        On Jul 25, 2008, at 12:13 PM, catslave54 wrote:

        >
        > And by the by, I am sick to death of people saying that they are
        > doing this for love. You never hear a scenic designer say that.
        > This is a job, like any other. How is she going to live on love at
        > retirement? Love is not compensation for substandard wages. When
        > you work in the arts you can't expect to be a billionaire, but you
        > shouldn't be homeless either.
        >
        Here here! I'll second that for sure. If more costume designers
        would speak up for themselves, we wouldn't be in this situation. Me,
        I've lost a couple jobs in the past year because they wouldn't pay what
        I wanted, and one of them was asking only for $500 for a show. They
        wanted to pay me $200-250 and it was for that play about Sherlock
        Holmes (I forget the actually title) which has a lot of characters and
        costume changes. I didn't think I was being unreasonable, and was not
        too sad about losing the job since the artistic director, at my
        interview, had told me he doesn't want anything to do with costumes.
        He doesn't want keep any of them after the show for future use and
        couldn't care less about the whole costume arena. With that kind of
        attitude, what can we expect?

        Sylvia



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Paula McWhirter-Buck
        i m confussed about who the she is you refer to. if it s me (in relation to my last post), i m afraid i was badly missunderstood. i, personally LOVE my
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 25, 2008
          i'm confussed about who the "she" is you refer to.
          if it's me (in relation to my last post), i'm afraid i was badly missunderstood.
          i, personally LOVE my job...both of them. and i'm quite satisfied with the compensation (but, i'll take more if offered).
          i dont work full time for the college. i put in three or four 5-7 hour days a week (i'm only required to be there for lab hours on mon.-thurs.)and take all the breaks the kids get. the kids are a challenge, but i'm always up for a challenge. i get frustrated with their interest level...but they're rising actors...not costumers.

          i was simply addressing the wage question.

          i also used to work in a costume retail/rental store. i got 8.00 an hour. i liked that job too.
          i eventually went in as partner of that store. we sold it after a while, though, when my partner chose to take other avenues. and i went back to theatre.

          i appologize for any misconseptions.

          blessings,
          paula


          "THE TIME HAS COME", THE WALRUS SAID,"TO TALK OF MANY THINGS.
          OF SHOES, AND SHIPS AND SEALING WAX, OF CABBAGES AND KINGS.
          AND WHY THE SEA IS BOILING HOT, AND WHETHER PIGS HAVE WINGS."


          --- On Fri, 7/25/08, catslave54 <zimmermanel@...> wrote:

          > From: catslave54 <zimmermanel@...>
          > Subject: [TheCostumersManifesto] Re:Wage question
          > To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Friday, July 25, 2008, 2:13 PM
          > It could be worse. We could have no arms or legs or live in
          > China.
          > It doesn't sound like she wants to do anything about
          > the situation--
          > she just wants to winge about it. I guess she could stay
          > and be a
          > martyr and go through years of this and end up bitter and
          > bankrupt.
          > OR--she could make a case for herself, do research about
          > other pay
          > scales and seek parity--that may help. I'll bet the
          > scenic designer
          > gets more money. OR--she could find a new job. She may
          > have to go
          > where the job is, but I know there are better paying jobs.
          > She could
          > also demand to hire her own staff for the summer and demand
          > the same
          > design fee for each show as the guest designers. She could
          > do a time
          > study as we have done (it's pretty enlightening--even
          > to me). She
          > could present the time study to the administration and make
          > a case
          > for a full time position--it is illegal to have someone
          > work for part-
          > time pay at full-time hours. I would submit this to both
          > the
          > administration and the head to the department. The head of
          > the
          > department already knows how much she is working -- he is
          > just
          > ignoring it. Is there a union on campus?? That always
          > helps.
          > And by the by, I am sick to death of people saying that
          > they are
          > doing this for love. You never hear a scenic designer say
          > that.
          > This is a job, like any other. How is she going to live on
          > love at
          > retirement? Love is not compensation for substandard
          > wages. When
          > you work in the arts you can't expect to be a
          > billionaire, but you
          > shouldn't be homeless either.
          >
          > Thank you, my rant is over,
          > Sandy
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > (Yahoo! ID required)
          >
          > mailto:TheCostumersManifesto-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
          >
        • Curtis
          ... Ummmmm...actually, I do hear that from scenic designers. I agree, if someone isn t getting paid enough, it s their own fault for not standing up for
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 26, 2008
            --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "catslave54"
            <zimmermanel@...> wrote:
            >
            > And by the by, I am sick to death of people saying that they are
            > doing this for love. You never hear a scenic designer say that.
            > This is a job, like any other.

            Ummmmm...actually, I do hear that from scenic designers. I agree, if
            someone isn't getting paid enough, it's their own fault for not
            standing up for more...but 'enough' has very different meanings in one
            part of the country versus another. I remember one of my art
            professors at Utah State advising us to make sure we checked out all
            of the angles to a job offer, rather than just looking at the paycheck
            attached to it...then, to illustrate his point, he told us about how
            he turned down an offer to teach at the Art Center School in LA for
            close to double his USU paycheck...because when he started factoring
            cost of living and the commute, etc, he would actually end up with
            only 2/3 as much money winding up in his pocket after the bills were paid.

            What sounds like an appallingly low wage may, for that area, actually
            be 'what the market will bear' (much as I despise borrowing that
            phrase from the oil companies...) I'm wardrobe manager for the live
            entertainment department at an amusement park...I've been working for
            the park for going on eleven years. This year, I finally broke
            $12/hour (I supplement that with freelance work during the off-season,
            when I'm not full-time at the park), and I'm actually among the few
            people in this area that makes my living primarily doing theater work
            (I did take a job shipping films at the neighborhood movie
            theater...but that's only one night a week, hardly a major impact on
            my bank account).

            $500 as a design fee, however, is pretty low, even for around here.
            Back when our department had directors that would make a case for
            design fees, I was getting $800 for a show that only had eight people
            in the cast, and only one costume per person (the current director has
            bowed to the park management's argument that, since I'm already on
            payroll, I shouldn't get a design fee...so I bill them for every
            single minute I spend doing anything even remotely associated with
            designing a show, even if it's just fifteen minutes at home
            brainstorming...) The theater that I did props design for last winter
            had a $1000 design fee (which, by the way, was across the board...ALL
            the designers got that fee. Their budgets may have been different,
            but their fee was the same). I turned down an offer to design for
            them this year, because the theater is almost an hour drive from my
            apartment and with gas being the price that it is now, it's just not
            worth it to me to drive that far for the money involved, although I'll
            be surprised if anybody steps up to match that offer more locally.
            There are just too many people around here that are too willing to do
            the work...there are four universities with excellent theater programs
            within an hour's drive of my apartment, so there's a ready supply of
            new talent looking for a way to start building up a professional
            resume. Yes, I could go somewhere else and get a bigger
            paycheck...but I'm fairly certain that the tradeoff of a bigger
            paycheck for the different expenses (and other things, like the
            overall peace of mind of living in a neighborhood where I don't worry
            that I leave my apartment with the doors unlocked all day long) would
            leave me feeling like I'd made a bad choice.

            Getting back to the original question...what kind of a wage should she
            expect? Well, that is totally dependent on the regional market. If
            this costume shop is in an area with a lot of theaters that pay well,
            the general wage level will be higher than if it's an area that's
            swarming with community theaters that rely primarily on volunteers or
            barely beat minimum wage for vaguely-skilled labor. Personally, given
            all the different aspects of the job that she described, and comparing
            it to what I make versus what I do, I wouldn't take the offer
            seriously unless there was at least $30k a year in the paycheck. And
            that would be if the shop was in this area, with a relatively low cost
            of living. If the offer wasn't at least that good, it wouldn't be
            worth it to me to leave my current job for it (although if they
            matched my current wage level AND offered health benefits and a
            rollover of my 401k, I'd probably jump at it in a heartbeat.)
          • Sylvia Rognstad
            Curtis, So you re saying I could make $800 designing a show if I moved to Utah? That s not much but it beats $200-500 here in Denver. We re a city with
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 26, 2008
              Curtis,
              So you're saying I could make $800 designing a show if I moved to Utah?
              That's not much but it beats $200-500 here in Denver. We're a
              city with lots of colleges and universities too, so as you say, there
              is always a big pool of new young designers willing to work for nothing
              or very little.

              Sylvia

              On Jul 26, 2008, at 11:34 AM, Curtis wrote:

              > --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, "catslave54"
              > <zimmermanel@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > And by the by, I am sick to death of people saying that they are
              > > doing this for love. You never hear a scenic designer say that.
              > > This is a job, like any other.
              >
              > Ummmmm...actually, I do hear that from scenic designers. I agree, if
              > someone isn't getting paid enough, it's their own fault for not
              > standing up for more...but 'enough' has very different meanings in one
              > part of the country versus another. I remember one of my art
              > professors at Utah State advising us to make sure we checked out all
              > of the angles to a job offer, rather than just looking at the paycheck
              > attached to it...then, to illustrate his point, he told us about how
              > he turned down an offer to teach at the Art Center School in LA for
              > close to double his USU paycheck...because when he started factoring
              > cost of living and the commute, etc, he would actually end up with
              > only 2/3 as much money winding up in his pocket after the bills were
              > paid.
              >
              > What sounds like an appallingly low wage may, for that area, actually
              > be 'what the market will bear' (much as I despise borrowing that
              > phrase from the oil companies...) I'm wardrobe manager for the live
              > entertainment department at an amusement park...I've been working for
              > the park for going on eleven years. This year, I finally broke
              > $12/hour (I supplement that with freelance work during the off-season,
              > when I'm not full-time at the park), and I'm actually among the few
              > people in this area that makes my living primarily doing theater work
              > (I did take a job shipping films at the neighborhood movie
              > theater...but that's only one night a week, hardly a major impact on
              > my bank account).
              >
              > $500 as a design fee, however, is pretty low, even for around here.
              > Back when our department had directors that would make a case for
              > design fees, I was getting $800 for a show that only had eight people
              > in the cast, and only one costume per person (the current director has
              > bowed to the park management's argument that, since I'm already on
              > payroll, I shouldn't get a design fee...so I bill them for every
              > single minute I spend doing anything even remotely associated with
              > designing a show, even if it's just fifteen minutes at home
              > brainstorming...) The theater that I did props design for last winter
              > had a $1000 design fee (which, by the way, was across the board...ALL
              > the designers got that fee. Their budgets may have been different,
              > but their fee was the same). I turned down an offer to design for
              > them this year, because the theater is almost an hour drive from my
              > apartment and with gas being the price that it is now, it's just not
              > worth it to me to drive that far for the money involved, although I'll
              > be surprised if anybody steps up to match that offer more locally.
              > There are just too many people around here that are too willing to do
              > the work...there are four universities with excellent theater programs
              > within an hour's drive of my apartment, so there's a ready supply of
              > new talent looking for a way to start building up a professional
              > resume. Yes, I could go somewhere else and get a bigger
              > paycheck...but I'm fairly certain that the tradeoff of a bigger
              > paycheck for the different expenses (and other things, like the
              > overall peace of mind of living in a neighborhood where I don't worry
              > that I leave my apartment with the doors unlocked all day long) would
              > leave me feeling like I'd made a bad choice.
              >
              > Getting back to the original question...what kind of a wage should she
              > expect? Well, that is totally dependent on the regional market. If
              > this costume shop is in an area with a lot of theaters that pay well,
              > the general wage level will be higher than if it's an area that's
              > swarming with community theaters that rely primarily on volunteers or
              > barely beat minimum wage for vaguely-skilled labor. Personally, given
              > all the different aspects of the job that she described, and comparing
              > it to what I make versus what I do, I wouldn't take the offer
              > seriously unless there was at least $30k a year in the paycheck. And
              > that would be if the shop was in this area, with a relatively low cost
              > of living. If the offer wasn't at least that good, it wouldn't be
              > worth it to me to leave my current job for it (although if they
              > matched my current wage level AND offered health benefits and a
              > rollover of my 401k, I'd probably jump at it in a heartbeat.)
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Kate
              All of this talk of wages has brought up something that I have a question about.  Design fees separate from regular wages has made me wonder... What do you
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 26, 2008
                All of this talk of wages has brought up something that I have a question about.  Design fees separate from regular wages has made me wonder... What do you consider designing a show vs pulling from stock?  My new job will involve pulling clothing from stock as opposed to designing costumes from scratch.  I will have some that I will need to design and make, but this is a part of my regular wage.  I work for a theatrical costume supply/ rental place.  I have 4 seamstress' that will work for me as well as someone who takes care of the laundry.  It will be my job to negotiate with the clients and find out what they need for a particular show...sizes etc.  It will be my job to design the look of the show.  So, what do you considering designing a show?

                Kat





















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David Juby
                Designing a show is creating the visual blueprint for the production. You can do that by drawing and building, or pulling from stock, or shopping; it is still
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 27, 2008
                  Designing a show is creating the visual blueprint for the production. You
                  can do that by drawing and building, or pulling from stock, or shopping; it
                  is still your creativity at work in establishing the final looks.

                  David Juby


                  >From: Kate <kats01430@...>
                  >Reply-To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: [TheCostumersManifesto] designing vs pulling from stock
                  >Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:31:22 -0700 (PDT)
                  >
                  >All of this talk of wages has brought up something that I have a question
                  >about.� Design fees separate from regular wages has made me wonder... What
                  >do you consider designing a show vs pulling from stock?� My new job will
                  >involve pulling clothing from stock as opposed to designing costumes from
                  >scratch.� I will have some that I will need to design and make, but this is
                  >a part of my regular wage.� I work for a theatrical costume supply/ rental
                  >place.� I have 4 seamstress' that will work for me as well as someone who
                  >takes care of the laundry.� It will be my job to negotiate with the clients
                  >and find out what they need for a particular show...sizes etc.� It will be
                  >my job to design the look of the show.� So, what do you considering
                  >designing a show?
                  >
                  >Kat
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • bonnie carter
                  I have basically the same type of job. Yes, most of what you re going to be doing is designing but for the most part within your stock. It s not really the
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 28, 2008
                    I have basically the same type of job. Yes, most of what you're going to be doing is "designing" but for the most part within your stock. It's not really the same type of designing that folks are saying that they ask for extra money for, because it is going to be the main part of your job. The key is designing for your customers within the stock you have and then building according to the needs you see that your shop will need to fill in the future.

                    At our shop, my seamstress is a designer as well. I give her instructions as to what we need (as in more Birdie costumes) and some guidelines (one medium to large size, and one larger size, two-piece and gold) but she does the actual design. You'll find out how exactly the designs work at your rental shop. It's also important to learn how to design costumes that are easilly altered and built to be used for many, many performances.

                    What the others are talking about is designing for the organization. For example, we have a shop that rents (like what you're doing) but we also put on 6 shows per year that I design. My designing is not for an extra charge, it's written into my job description. In those cases I read the show, do a plot, research, and then work with my seamstress and the directors on the design of the show that's being produced. It's really a very different process than designing the rental shows.
                  • Curtis
                    ... question about. Design fees separate from regular wages has made me wonder... What do you consider designing a show vs pulling from stock? I have yet to
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 28, 2008
                      --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Kate <kats01430@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > All of this talk of wages has brought up something that I have a
                      question about. Design fees separate from regular wages has made me
                      wonder... What do you consider designing a show vs pulling from stock?

                      I have yet to be involved in a production that didn't involve a
                      certain amount of pulling from stock as part of the design process
                      (granted, sometimes it became pulling stuff from stock, deciding none
                      of it quite fit the bill, and then buying/building something anyway,
                      but...)

                      Just because you didn't draft the pattern and build the costume from
                      scratch, does not mean you didn't design the show. It is your
                      creative vision that's going into the show...and if it so happens that
                      somebody else built something that happens to match your vision, I
                      consider it highly impractical not to take advantage of that option.
                      (I bit my tongue a lot this year because our costume designer for the
                      shows bought several new items that were all but identical to stuff we
                      already had in stock...and in a few cases, we ended up using stuff
                      from stock that got pulled because she'd been unable to find/build
                      anything for a particular number by the time the show opened...it was
                      initially pulled from stock 'so they had something to practice with'
                      for the costume changes, and it just never got replaced...)

                      At the park, I have worked with designers that built almost
                      everything, designers that bought almost everything, and designers
                      that struck a balance between the two. Personally, I've designed
                      shows for the park that involved massive amounts of construction,
                      shows that were almost completely off-the-rack purchases, and shows
                      that were strictly pull-and-alter. Granted, there's more time
                      involved in building a show...but for a lot of theaters, the designer
                      isn't actually building the show, they're just giving the costume shop
                      patterns (or pattern ideas) and material, and overseeing the
                      construction. In some ways, it's actually easier to build a show from
                      scratch than it is to pull a show, especially if you have actors that
                      are unusual sizes and have to make pulled items work for them.
                    • Sylvia Rognstad
                      I may be starting to have a different perspective from the one, that as a designer, I ve always had. I saw a Shakespeare production recently that had almost
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 28, 2008
                        I may be starting to have a different perspective from the one, that as
                        a designer, I've always had. I saw a Shakespeare production recently
                        that had almost all white Elizabethan costumes. The only parts that
                        were colored were from the mid-bust up and the color came from
                        actually painting on the costumes. I thought to myself--those costumes
                        had to have been very expensive to build and they can never be used
                        again. In a world like we have today, where we are reminded over and
                        over to reuse, recycle and what's the third? should we as designers be
                        concerned about this? I'm undecided myself, and am wondering about
                        your opinions.

                        Sylvia

                        On Jul 28, 2008, at 10:40 AM, Curtis wrote:

                        > --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Kate <kats01430@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > All of this talk of wages has brought up something that I have a
                        > question about. Design fees separate from regular wages has made me
                        > wonder... What do you consider designing a show vs pulling from stock?
                        >
                        > I have yet to be involved in a production that didn't involve a
                        > certain amount of pulling from stock as part of the design process
                        > (granted, sometimes it became pulling stuff from stock, deciding none
                        > of it quite fit the bill, and then buying/building something anyway,
                        > but...)
                        >
                        > Just because you didn't draft the pattern and build the costume from
                        > scratch, does not mean you didn't design the show. It is your
                        > creative vision that's going into the show...and if it so happens that
                        > somebody else built something that happens to match your vision, I
                        > consider it highly impractical not to take advantage of that option.
                        > (I bit my tongue a lot this year because our costume designer for the
                        > shows bought several new items that were all but identical to stuff we
                        > already had in stock...and in a few cases, we ended up using stuff
                        > from stock that got pulled because she'd been unable to find/build
                        > anything for a particular number by the time the show opened...it was
                        > initially pulled from stock 'so they had something to practice with'
                        > for the costume changes, and it just never got replaced...)
                        >
                        > At the park, I have worked with designers that built almost
                        > everything, designers that bought almost everything, and designers
                        > that struck a balance between the two. Personally, I've designed
                        > shows for the park that involved massive amounts of construction,
                        > shows that were almost completely off-the-rack purchases, and shows
                        > that were strictly pull-and-alter. Granted, there's more time
                        > involved in building a show...but for a lot of theaters, the designer
                        > isn't actually building the show, they're just giving the costume shop
                        > patterns (or pattern ideas) and material, and overseeing the
                        > construction. In some ways, it's actually easier to build a show from
                        > scratch than it is to pull a show, especially if you have actors that
                        > are unusual sizes and have to make pulled items work for them.
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Kael Lampe
                        Personally, I am always very concerned with reduce, reuse, recycle. I do it as often as I can. I ve actually had a client that specifically wanted green
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 28, 2008
                          Personally, I am always very concerned with reduce, reuse, recycle.
                          I do it as often as I can. I've actually had a client that
                          specifically wanted 'green' wardrobe for their all 'green'
                          production. I was very happy.
                          The apparel industry IS the most wasteful industry globaly. I be
                          sure to use everything I can, as many times and in as many ways
                          possible. Even after finishing, if my scraps don't go to the birds
                          (literally....I shred scraps and save thread clippings and put them
                          out on a trellis for the birds to use for nesting), I send them off
                          to a textile recycling facility.

                          As for the beautiful sounding Shakespeare costumes, hopefully
                          someone at sometime will come across them and be creative enough to
                          reuse them in some way. Sigh.

                          --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad
                          <sylvia@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I may be starting to have a different perspective from the one,
                          that as
                          > a designer, I've always had. I saw a Shakespeare production
                          recently
                          > that had almost all white Elizabethan costumes. The only parts
                          that
                          > were colored were from the mid-bust up and the color came from
                          > actually painting on the costumes. I thought to myself--those
                          costumes
                          > had to have been very expensive to build and they can never be
                          used
                          > again. In a world like we have today, where we are reminded over
                          and
                          > over to reuse, recycle and what's the third? should we as
                          designers be
                          > concerned about this? I'm undecided myself, and am wondering
                          about
                          > your opinions.
                          >
                          > Sylvia
                          >
                          > On Jul 28, 2008, at 10:40 AM, Curtis wrote:
                          >
                          > > --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Kate <kats01430@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > All of this talk of wages has brought up something that I
                          have a
                          > > question about. Design fees separate from regular wages has
                          made me
                          > > wonder... What do you consider designing a show vs pulling from
                          stock?
                          > >
                          > > I have yet to be involved in a production that didn't involve a
                          > > certain amount of pulling from stock as part of the design
                          process
                          > > (granted, sometimes it became pulling stuff from stock,
                          deciding none
                          > > of it quite fit the bill, and then buying/building something
                          anyway,
                          > > but...)
                          > >
                          > > Just because you didn't draft the pattern and build the costume
                          from
                          > > scratch, does not mean you didn't design the show. It is your
                          > > creative vision that's going into the show...and if it so
                          happens that
                          > > somebody else built something that happens to match your
                          vision, I
                          > > consider it highly impractical not to take advantage of that
                          option.
                          > > (I bit my tongue a lot this year because our costume designer
                          for the
                          > > shows bought several new items that were all but identical to
                          stuff we
                          > > already had in stock...and in a few cases, we ended up using
                          stuff
                          > > from stock that got pulled because she'd been unable to
                          find/build
                          > > anything for a particular number by the time the show
                          opened...it was
                          > > initially pulled from stock 'so they had something to practice
                          with'
                          > > for the costume changes, and it just never got replaced...)
                          > >
                          > > At the park, I have worked with designers that built almost
                          > > everything, designers that bought almost everything, and
                          designers
                          > > that struck a balance between the two. Personally, I've designed
                          > > shows for the park that involved massive amounts of
                          construction,
                          > > shows that were almost completely off-the-rack purchases, and
                          shows
                          > > that were strictly pull-and-alter. Granted, there's more time
                          > > involved in building a show...but for a lot of theaters, the
                          designer
                          > > isn't actually building the show, they're just giving the
                          costume shop
                          > > patterns (or pattern ideas) and material, and overseeing the
                          > > construction. In some ways, it's actually easier to build a
                          show from
                          > > scratch than it is to pull a show, especially if you have
                          actors that
                          > > are unusual sizes and have to make pulled items work for them.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • bonnie carter
                          I really don t think the OP was suggesting that using items that you pull isn t designing, or that designers shouldn t pull from stock. Which, I m glad to
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 29, 2008
                            I really don't think the OP was suggesting that using items that you pull isn't designing, or that designers shouldn't pull from stock. Which, I'm glad to hear others are big on also. I use parts and pieces from other costumes to build on all the time. I bet those dresses someone mentioned could be taken apart and reused.

                            Her new job is running a rental shop, and she wanted to know if designing the rental shows was still considered designing (something that others would charge extra for at their jobs). It is designing, but it is a very different type of job than designing one specific production where the costumes are made and used for that one show. Renting and designing for rental is very different (but still designing).

                            I'm often frustrated because the designs we use for our productions are then used for rental. So usually we have to build our show to reflect what many other directors will want to use also. And everything has to be built so that they last: lining everything, using heavy-duty closures, designing layered underskirts into everything long so that dozens of alterations can be made without damaging the fabric, using washable materials whenever possible, and using adjustable designs (like lace-up backs in Medieval dresses) whenever possible to fit a wide range of people well.
                          • geneiak
                            my last job b4 retirement was with a regional theatre- designers were always telling me to call some other theatre where they had worked and have them ship
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 29, 2008
                              my last job b4 retirement was with a regional theatre-
                              designers were always telling me to call some other theatre where
                              they had worked and have them ship some certain costume to us-

                              so hopefully the designer of the all white shakespeare will be in a
                              position to reuse some of these costumes in another show at another
                              theatre-
                              also big now with regional theatres are co-productions-
                              one theatre mounts the production then actors, sets and costumes are
                              shipped off to another theatre that shares production costs-

                              i always took small scraps that weren't being saved for repairs to a
                              woman that I had worked with earlier in my career-
                              she did amazing things with this stuff-
                              she made doll clothes for the salvation army for their christmas toy
                              drive-
                              she sorted anything that she couldnt use and shipped it on to people
                              that would use it-
                              she had a good friend that quilted so anything good for that went to
                              her-

                              I can't say that we really "reduced" in our daily work at the theatre
                              but we did "reuse" and "recycle"-

                              I think that overall the scenic depts are much less green than
                              costume shops-

                              retshopbuyer


                              --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Rognstad
                              <sylvia@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I may be starting to have a different perspective from the one,
                              that as
                              > a designer, I've always had. I saw a Shakespeare production
                              recently
                              > that had almost all white Elizabethan costumes. The only parts
                              that
                              > were colored were from the mid-bust up and the color came from
                              > actually painting on the costumes. I thought to myself--those
                              costumes
                              > had to have been very expensive to build and they can never be used
                              > again. In a world like we have today, where we are reminded over
                              and
                              > over to reuse, recycle and what's the third? should we as
                              designers be
                              > concerned about this? I'm undecided myself, and am wondering
                              about
                              > your opinions.
                              >
                              > Sylvia
                              >
                              > On Jul 28, 2008, at 10:40 AM, Curtis wrote:
                              >
                              > > --- In TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, Kate <kats01430@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > All of this talk of wages has brought up something that I have
                              a
                              > > question about. Design fees separate from regular wages has made
                              me
                              > > wonder... What do you consider designing a show vs pulling from
                              stock?
                              > >
                              > > I have yet to be involved in a production that didn't involve a
                              > > certain amount of pulling from stock as part of the design
                              process
                              > > (granted, sometimes it became pulling stuff from stock, deciding
                              none
                              > > of it quite fit the bill, and then buying/building something
                              anyway,
                              > > but...)
                              > >
                              > > Just because you didn't draft the pattern and build the costume
                              from
                              > > scratch, does not mean you didn't design the show. It is your
                              > > creative vision that's going into the show...and if it so
                              happens that
                              > > somebody else built something that happens to match your vision,
                              I
                              > > consider it highly impractical not to take advantage of that
                              option.
                              > > (I bit my tongue a lot this year because our costume designer
                              for the
                              > > shows bought several new items that were all but identical to
                              stuff we
                              > > already had in stock...and in a few cases, we ended up using
                              stuff
                              > > from stock that got pulled because she'd been unable to
                              find/build
                              > > anything for a particular number by the time the show
                              opened...it was
                              > > initially pulled from stock 'so they had something to practice
                              with'
                              > > for the costume changes, and it just never got replaced...)
                              > >
                              > > At the park, I have worked with designers that built almost
                              > > everything, designers that bought almost everything, and
                              designers
                              > > that struck a balance between the two. Personally, I've designed
                              > > shows for the park that involved massive amounts of construction,
                              > > shows that were almost completely off-the-rack purchases, and
                              shows
                              > > that were strictly pull-and-alter. Granted, there's more time
                              > > involved in building a show...but for a lot of theaters, the
                              designer
                              > > isn't actually building the show, they're just giving the
                              costume shop
                              > > patterns (or pattern ideas) and material, and overseeing the
                              > > construction. In some ways, it's actually easier to build a show
                              from
                              > > scratch than it is to pull a show, especially if you have actors
                              that
                              > > are unusual sizes and have to make pulled items work for them.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • geneiak
                              does the shop have shows in stock? Like stuff desgned for Dames at Sea all hanging together- If so and someone wanted DAS as a package and you took the
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jul 29, 2008
                                does the shop have shows in stock?
                                Like stuff desgned for Dames at Sea all hanging together-
                                If so and someone wanted DAS as a package and you took the costumes off
                                the rack and checked sizes that isnt designing-

                                that is just pulling an already designed show-

                                of course a director can come along and say "hey I don't want those old
                                off the rack bridal dresses, I want something cute and fun designed for
                                that number"
                                So those costumes could be designed and that would incur a design fee-

                                The rental shop i worked in years ago had a designer who also did a lot
                                of the pattern work-
                                Sometimes there was an employee that pulled the shows that were rented
                                and sometimes the designer did it-

                                For every situation out there there is gonna be a different answer-

                                retshopbuyer-
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