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Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

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  • CWarschak@aol.com
    Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight.? For many years, I often wondered why being called a
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 2, 2009
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      Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight. 
      For many years, I often wondered why being called a Bohemian was so bad. I think that those of us who were born in Texas often did not realize that our Moravian ancestors made such a distinction between Moravia and Bohemia so the only answers that anyone could give was the old standard joke that Czechs were Bohemians who had lots of money, or sometimes vice the versa.
      Eventually, I came to the realization that our immigrant ancestors in Texas who emigrated from Moravia were proud of where they came from and did not want their homeland confused with Bohemia.  I think that the fact that Czechs up North and in the Mid West, most of whose ancestors emigrated from Bohemia do not mind being called Bohemians bears out this fact.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Valorie Michna <vmichna@...>
      To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 6:55 am
      Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

      My family always thought the family came from Bohemia because Grandma and Grandpa Michna said that they were Bohemian.  The Czech language is also called Bohemian (according to the history books I have), so maybe the census recorder did not understand the difference if the family identified themselves as Bohemian which really meant Czech as an ethnicity and did not designate an actual place of origin. 
      Valorie Michna
      Researching Michna and Sasin/Sassin

      --- On Thu, 4/2/09, Richard <richard_martin86@ yahoo.com> wrote:

      From: Richard <richard_martin86@ yahoo.com>
      Subject: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
      To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 2:22 AM

      I thought I had posted something about this a few days back, but I cannot find the post, nor a reply.

      I was wondering what the reason was for Moravians being listed in census reports up to 1910 as being from "Bohemia". just wanted to hear an official answer, if anyone has it.

      Thank you!
      Richard


    • Valorie Michna
      For whatever reason, my dad and his family never learned much about their grandparents from Moravia, so I don t know why they were told they were Bohemian. 
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 2, 2009
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        For whatever reason, my dad and his family never learned much about their grandparents from Moravia, so I don't know why they were told they were Bohemian.  Maybe this came from society at large instead of the family.  Maybe those that recorded the 1910 census saw a Czech family and lumped them in a broad group instead of identifying their true origin. Also, the form was not designed to record too much specific info regarding the place of origin.  For example, those born in TX just recorded Texas, not a specific town or place in TX.
         
        All I know for sure is that there is lot of varied information between secular records and church records.  So when it comes to secular records, especially censuses, I take it all in context.  A lot of times close enough is the best standard when it comes to teasing fact from fiction.  My best sources have been vital records where priests recorded home towns, places of origin, names of parents, etc at the time that sacraments were performed.  

        --- On Thu, 4/2/09, CWarschak@... <CWarschak@...> wrote:

        From: CWarschak@... <CWarschak@...>
        Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
        To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 3:14 PM

        Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight. 
        For many years, I often wondered why being called a Bohemian was so bad. I think that those of us who were born in Texas often did not realize that our Moravian ancestors made such a distinction between Moravia and Bohemia so the only answers that anyone could give was the old standard joke that Czechs were Bohemians who had lots of money, or sometimes vice the versa.
        Eventually, I came to the realization that our immigrant ancestors in Texas who emigrated from Moravia were proud of where they came from and did not want their homeland confused with Bohemia.  I think that the fact that Czechs up North and in the Mid West, most of whose ancestors emigrated from Bohemia do not mind being called Bohemians bears out this fact.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Valorie Michna <vmichna@yahoo. com>
        To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 6:55 am
        Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

        My family always thought the family came from Bohemia because Grandma and Grandpa Michna said that they were Bohemian.  The Czech language is also called Bohemian (according to the history books I have), so maybe the census recorder did not understand the difference if the family identified themselves as Bohemian which really meant Czech as an ethnicity and did not designate an actual place of origin. 
        Valorie Michna
        Researching Michna and Sasin/Sassin

        --- On Thu, 4/2/09, Richard <richard_martin86@ yahoo.com> wrote:

        From: Richard <richard_martin86@ yahoo.com>
        Subject: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
        To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 2:22 AM

        I thought I had posted something about this a few days back, but I cannot find the post, nor a reply.

        I was wondering what the reason was for Moravians being listed in census reports up to 1910 as being from "Bohemia". just wanted to hear an official answer, if anyone has it.

        Thank you!
        Richard



      • Patricia Cosper
        I grew up hearing from my mother s family that the only difference between a Czech and a Bohemian was $2500. My mother claimed her family (Schwertnerss &
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 19, 2009
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          I grew up hearing from my mother's family that the only difference between a Czech and a Bohemian was $2500. My mother claimed her family (Schwertnerss & Driska's) were Bohemian.
           
          Pat Cosper

          --- On Thu, 4/2/09, CWarschak@... <CWarschak@...> wrote:

          From: CWarschak@... <CWarschak@...>
          Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
          To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:14 AM






          Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight. 
          For many years, I often wondered why being called a Bohemian was so bad. I think that those of us who were born in Texas often did not realize that our Moravian ancestors made such a distinction between Moravia and Bohemia so the only answers that anyone could give was the old standard joke that Czechs were Bohemians who had lots of money, or sometimes vice the versa.
          Eventually, I came to the realization that our immigrant ancestors in Texas who emigrated from Moravia were proud of where they came from and did not want their homeland confused with Bohemia.  I think that the fact that Czechs up North and in the Mid West, most of whose ancestors emigrated from Bohemia do not mind being called Bohemians bears out this fact.
        • Sir John
          Patricia,   Funny comment you maternal grandparents made - never heard that before.   My paternal gt/grandparents  came from Moravia.  One son, my
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 20, 2009
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            Patricia,
             
            Funny comment you maternal grandparents made - never heard that before.
             
            My paternal gt/grandparents  came from Moravia.  One son, my grandfather, always said the family was Bohemians.  I never heard him mention Moravia and never heard that word until I began searching the family genealogy in the mid 90's. 

            Sir John, Earl of Berkshire
            What good is information if not shared with others?

            --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Patricia Cosper <pcosper@...> wrote:

            From: Patricia Cosper <pcosper@...>
            Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
            To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:18 AM

            I grew up hearing from my mother's family that the only difference between a Czech and a Bohemian was $2500. My mother claimed her family (Schwertnerss & Driska's) were Bohemian.
             
            Pat Cosper

            --- On Thu, 4/2/09, CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com> wrote:

            From: CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com>
            Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
            To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:14 AM

            Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight. 
            For many years, I often wondered why being called a Bohemian was so bad. I think that those of us who were born in Texas often did not realize that our Moravian ancestors made such a distinction between Moravia and Bohemia so the only answers that anyone could give was the old standard joke that Czechs were Bohemians who had lots of money, or sometimes vice the versa.
            Eventually, I came to the realization that our immigrant ancestors in Texas who emigrated from Moravia were proud of where they came from and did not want their homeland confused with Bohemia.  I think that the fact that Czechs up North and in the Mid West, most of whose ancestors emigrated from Bohemia do not mind being called Bohemians bears out this fact.
          • Diann Biltz
            My grandmother was from Bohemia and grandfather from Moravia - they met and married in Chicago and there did not seem to be any problem between the two
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 20, 2009
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              My grandmother was from Bohemia and grandfather from Moravia - they met and married in Chicago and there did not seem to be any problem between the two sections of the Austrian Hungarian Empire to prevent this union.  How great it is that these old prejudices were MOSTLY overcome when our ancestors emigrated to USA.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Sir John
              Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 07:10
              Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

              Patricia,
               
              Funny comment you maternal grandparents made - never heard that before.
               
              My paternal gt/grandparents  came from Moravia.  One son, my grandfather, always said the family was Bohemians.  I never heard him mention Moravia and never heard that word until I began searching the family genealogy in the mid 90's. 

              Sir John, Earl of Berkshire
              What good is information if not shared with others?

              --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net> wrote:

              From: Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net>
              Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
              To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:18 AM

              I grew up hearing from my mother's family that the only difference between a Czech and a Bohemian was $2500. My mother claimed her family (Schwertnerss & Driska's) were Bohemian.
               
              Pat Cosper

              --- On Thu, 4/2/09, CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com> wrote:

              From: CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com>
              Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
              To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:14 AM

              Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight. 
              For many years, I often wondered why being called a Bohemian was so bad. I think that those of us who were born in Texas often did not realize that our Moravian ancestors made such a distinction between Moravia and Bohemia so the only answers that anyone could give was the old standard joke that Czechs were Bohemians who had lots of money, or sometimes vice the versa.
              Eventually, I came to the realization that our immigrant ancestors in Texas who emigrated from Moravia were proud of where they came from and did not want their homeland confused with Bohemia.  I think that the fact that Czechs up North and in the Mid West, most of whose ancestors emigrated from Bohemia do not mind being called Bohemians bears out this fact.

            • Allen Livanec
               My mother & father used to have some heated discussions about Bohemians & Czechs. My father was a proud Czech. My mother said she was Bohemian not Czech. No
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 20, 2009
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                 My mother & father used to have some heated discussions about Bohemians & Czechs. My father was a proud Czech. My mother said she was Bohemian not Czech. No Moravians on either side that I know of back to 1806.

                --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Diann Biltz <diannbiltz@...> wrote:
                From: Diann Biltz <diannbiltz@...>
                Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:44 PM

                My grandmother was from Bohemia and grandfather from Moravia - they met and married in Chicago and there did not seem to be any problem between the two sections of the Austrian Hungarian Empire to prevent this union.  How great it is that these old prejudices were MOSTLY overcome when our ancestors emigrated to USA.
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Sir John
                Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 07:10
                Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                Patricia,
                 
                Funny comment you maternal grandparents made - never heard that before.
                 
                My paternal gt/grandparents  came from Moravia.  One son, my grandfather, always said the family was Bohemians.  I never heard him mention Moravia and never heard that word until I began searching the family genealogy in the mid 90's. 

                Sir John, Earl of Berkshire
                What good is information if not shared with others?

                --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net> wrote:

                From: Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net>
                Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:18 AM

                I grew up hearing from my mother's family that the only difference between a Czech and a Bohemian was $2500. My mother claimed her family (Schwertnerss & Driska's) were Bohemian.
                 
                Pat Cosper

                --- On Thu, 4/2/09, CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com> wrote:

                From: CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com>
                Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:14 AM

                Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight. 
                For many years, I often wondered why being called a Bohemian was so bad. I think that those of us who were born in Texas often did not realize that our Moravian ancestors made such a distinction between Moravia and Bohemia so the only answers that anyone could give was the old standard joke that Czechs were Bohemians who had lots of money, or sometimes vice the versa.
                Eventually, I came to the realization that our immigrant ancestors in Texas who emigrated from Moravia were proud of where they came from and did not want their homeland confused with Bohemia.  I think that the fact that Czechs up North and in the Mid West, most of whose ancestors emigrated from Bohemia do not mind being called Bohemians bears out this fact.
              • Pete Petruy
                Martin Skopik came to the US from Kolicin MORAVIA in 1856. He is August Skopik s father, one of your ancesters. August was also born in Kolicin. Carla
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 20, 2009
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                  Martin Skopik came to the US from Kolicin MORAVIA in 1856. He is August Skopik's father, one of your ancesters. August was also born in Kolicin.
                  Carla Petruy
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Allen Livanec
                  To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 5:31 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                  My mother & father used to have some heated discussions about Bohemians & Czechs. My father was a proud Czech. My mother said she was Bohemian not Czech. No Moravians on either side that I know of back to 1806.
                • d1jezek@aol.com
                  My father always says we re Bohemian, and in terms of geography i think Cermna is in the part of the Czech Republic that was Bohemia. My grandmother was
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 20, 2009
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                    My father always says we're Bohemian, and in terms of geography i think Cermna is in the part of the Czech Republic that was Bohemia.  My grandmother was Moravian, but i don't remember anyone ever mentioning that.  that could be because i never thought to ask.
                    Could the confusion or active choice of a word to describe the family's ethnic background be the result of the fact that when most of our ancestors came to Texas the Czech people really didn't have their own country at all?  so they might have been attached to the idea of Bohemia, or they might have just felt that by virtue of the shared language the best description was 'Czech'.
                    or maybe it's something like the way Texans think of themselves as Texans and also Americans.
                     
                    In a message dated 4/20/2009 1:45:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, diannbiltz@... writes:


                    My grandmother was from Bohemia and grandfather from Moravia - they met and married in Chicago and there did not seem to be any problem between the two sections of the Austrian Hungarian Empire to prevent this union.  How great it is that these old prejudices were MOSTLY overcome when our ancestors emigrated to USA.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Sir John
                    Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 07:10
                    Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                    Patricia,
                     
                    Funny comment you maternal grandparents made - never heard that before.
                     
                    My paternal gt/grandparents  came from Moravia.  One son, my grandfather, always said the family was Bohemians.  I never heard him mention Moravia and never heard that word until I began searching the family genealogy in the mid 90's. 

                    Sir John, Earl of Berkshire
                    What good is information if not shared with others?

                    --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net> wrote:

                    From: Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net>
                    Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                    To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:18 AM

                    I grew up hearing from my mother's family that the only difference between a Czech and a Bohemian was $2500. My mother claimed her family (Schwertnerss & Driska's) were Bohemian.
                     
                    Pat Cosper

                    --- On Thu, 4/2/09, CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com> wrote:

                    From: CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com>
                    Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                    To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:14 AM

                    Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight. 
                    For many years, I often wondered why being called a Bohemian was so bad. I think that those of us who were born in Texas often did not realize that our Moravian ancestors made such a distinction between Moravia and Bohemia so the only answers that anyone could give was the old standard joke that Czechs were Bohemians who had lots of money, or sometimes vice the versa.
                    Eventually, I came to the realization that our immigrant ancestors in Texas who emigrated from Moravia were proud of where they came from and did not want their homeland confused with Bohemia.  I think that the fact that Czechs up North and in the Mid West, most of whose ancestors emigrated from Bohemia do not mind being called Bohemians bears out this fact.



                    Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
                  • Paula Foster
                    Our Families who came from Moravia had our own Language and Traditions.  They were under the thumb of the Austrian-Empire which put them at the bottom of
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 20, 2009
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                      Our Families who came from Moravia had our own Language and Traditions.  They were under the "thumb" of the Austrian-Empire which put them at the "bottom of the ladder".  This means  a lot of Moravians could not own land, the worked their buns off for someone else and was taxed and taxed.  The boys when they turned 18 had to join the Military for I believe 7 years.  The Moravians were also persecuted for their religion.  This way there was a "mass" exit in the 1850s-1860s. then again in the 1880s.  Several Families came to Hranice which I have written about to carry on these Traditions and Language.    paulasmaggie


                      From: "d1jezek@..." <d1jezek@...>
                      To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 5:58:21 PM
                      Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                      My father always says we're Bohemian, and in terms of geography i think Cermna is in the part of the Czech Republic that was Bohemia.  My grandmother was Moravian, but i don't remember anyone ever mentioning that.  that could be because i never thought to ask.
                      Could the confusion or active choice of a word to describe the family's ethnic background be the result of the fact that when most of our ancestors came to Texas the Czech people really didn't have their own country at all?  so they might have been attached to the idea of Bohemia, or they might have just felt that by virtue of the shared language the best description was 'Czech'.
                      or maybe it's something like the way Texans think of themselves as Texans and also Americans.
                       
                      In a message dated 4/20/2009 1:45:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, diannbiltz@charter. net writes:


                      My grandmother was from Bohemia and grandfather from Moravia - they met and married in Chicago and there did not seem to be any problem between the two sections of the Austrian Hungarian Empire to prevent this union.  How great it is that these old prejudices were MOSTLY overcome when our ancestors emigrated to USA.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Sir John
                      Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 07:10
                      Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                      Patricia,
                       
                      Funny comment you maternal grandparents made - never heard that before.
                       
                      My paternal gt/grandparents  came from Moravia.  One son, my grandfather, always said the family was Bohemians.  I never heard him mention Moravia and never heard that word until I began searching the family genealogy in the mid 90's. 

                      Sir John, Earl of Berkshire
                      What good is information if not shared with others?

                      --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net> wrote:

                      From: Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net>
                      Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                      To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:18 AM

                      I grew up hearing from my mother's family that the only difference between a Czech and a Bohemian was $2500. My mother claimed her family (Schwertnerss & Driska's) were Bohemian.
                       
                      Pat Cosper

                      --- On Thu, 4/2/09, CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com> wrote:

                      From: CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com>
                      Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                      To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:14 AM

                      Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight. 
                      For many years, I often wondered why being called a Bohemian was so bad. I think that those of us who were born in Texas often did not realize that our Moravian ancestors made such a distinction between Moravia and Bohemia so the only answers that anyone could give was the old standard joke that Czechs were Bohemians who had lots of money, or sometimes vice the versa.
                      Eventually, I came to the realization that our immigrant ancestors in Texas who emigrated from Moravia were proud of where they came from and did not want their homeland confused with Bohemia.  I think that the fact that Czechs up North and in the Mid West, most of whose ancestors emigrated from Bohemia do not mind being called Bohemians bears out this fact.



                      Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
                    • Madelyn Dusek
                      Which religion was the subject of the persecution? Moravians did not have one religion. Most were probably Catholic by birth. Just wondering. Madelyn ... From:
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 20, 2009
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                        Which religion was the subject of the persecution? Moravians did not have one religion. Most were probably Catholic by birth. Just wondering.
                        Madelyn
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 6:35 PM
                        Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                        Our Families who came from Moravia had our own Language and Traditions.  They were under the "thumb" of the Austrian-Empire which put them at the "bottom of the ladder".  This means  a lot of Moravians could not own land, the worked their buns off for someone else and was taxed and taxed.  The boys when they turned 18 had to join the Military for I believe 7 years.  The Moravians were also persecuted for their religion.  This way there was a "mass" exit in the 1850s-1860s. then again in the 1880s.  Several Families came to Hranice which I have written about to carry on these Traditions and Language.    paulasmaggie


                        From: "d1jezek@aol. com" <d1jezek@aol. com>
                        To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 5:58:21 PM
                        Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                        My father always says we're Bohemian, and in terms of geography i think Cermna is in the part of the Czech Republic that was Bohemia.  My grandmother was Moravian, but i don't remember anyone ever mentioning that.  that could be because i never thought to ask.
                        Could the confusion or active choice of a word to describe the family's ethnic background be the result of the fact that when most of our ancestors came to Texas the Czech people really didn't have their own country at all?  so they might have been attached to the idea of Bohemia, or they might have just felt that by virtue of the shared language the best description was 'Czech'.
                        or maybe it's something like the way Texans think of themselves as Texans and also Americans.
                         
                        In a message dated 4/20/2009 1:45:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, diannbiltz@charter. net writes:


                        My grandmother was from Bohemia and grandfather from Moravia - they met and married in Chicago and there did not seem to be any problem between the two sections of the Austrian Hungarian Empire to prevent this union.  How great it is that these old prejudices were MOSTLY overcome when our ancestors emigrated to USA.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Sir John
                        Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 07:10
                        Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                        Patricia,
                         
                        Funny comment you maternal grandparents made - never heard that before.
                         
                        My paternal gt/grandparents  came from Moravia.  One son, my grandfather, always said the family was Bohemians.  I never heard him mention Moravia and never heard that word until I began searching the family genealogy in the mid 90's. 

                        Sir John, Earl of Berkshire
                        What good is information if not shared with others?

                        --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net> wrote:

                        From: Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net>
                        Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                        To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:18 AM

                        I grew up hearing from my mother's family that the only difference between a Czech and a Bohemian was $2500. My mother claimed her family (Schwertnerss & Driska's) were Bohemian.
                         
                        Pat Cosper

                        --- On Thu, 4/2/09, CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com> wrote:

                        From: CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com>
                        Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                        To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:14 AM

                        Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight. 
                        For many years, I often wondered why being called a Bohemian was so bad. I think that those of us who were born in Texas often did not realize that our Moravian ancestors made such a distinction between Moravia and Bohemia so the only answers that anyone could give was the old standard joke that Czechs were Bohemians who had lots of money, or sometimes vice the versa.
                        Eventually, I came to the realization that our immigrant ancestors in Texas who emigrated from Moravia were proud of where they came from and did not want their homeland confused with Bohemia.  I think that the fact that Czechs up North and in the Mid West, most of whose ancestors emigrated from Bohemia do not mind being called Bohemians bears out this fact.



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                      • Paula Foster
                        Madelyn, You are right about most were Catholic by birth.  The other religions quiet frankly I need help here.  I want to say Brethan was of them, but at the
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 20, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Madelyn, You are right about most were Catholic by birth.  The other religions quiet frankly I need help here.  I want to say Brethan was of them, but at the moment I am having a "brain freeze".  I know I have read it on line here.  paulasmaggie


                          From: Madelyn Dusek <mdusek@...>
                          To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 6:56:14 PM
                          Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                          Which religion was the subject of the persecution? Moravians did not have one religion. Most were probably Catholic by birth. Just wondering.
                          Madelyn
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 6:35 PM
                          Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                          Our Families who came from Moravia had our own Language and Traditions.  They were under the "thumb" of the Austrian-Empire which put them at the "bottom of the ladder".  This means  a lot of Moravians could not own land, the worked their buns off for someone else and was taxed and taxed.  The boys when they turned 18 had to join the Military for I believe 7 years.  The Moravians were also persecuted for their religion.  This way there was a "mass" exit in the 1850s-1860s. then again in the 1880s.  Several Families came to Hranice which I have written about to carry on these Traditions and Language.    paulasmaggie


                          From: "d1jezek@aol. com" <d1jezek@aol. com>
                          To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                          Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 5:58:21 PM
                          Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                          My father always says we're Bohemian, and in terms of geography i think Cermna is in the part of the Czech Republic that was Bohemia.  My grandmother was Moravian, but i don't remember anyone ever mentioning that.  that could be because i never thought to ask.
                          Could the confusion or active choice of a word to describe the family's ethnic background be the result of the fact that when most of our ancestors came to Texas the Czech people really didn't have their own country at all?  so they might have been attached to the idea of Bohemia, or they might have just felt that by virtue of the shared language the best description was 'Czech'.
                          or maybe it's something like the way Texans think of themselves as Texans and also Americans.
                           
                          In a message dated 4/20/2009 1:45:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, diannbiltz@charter. net writes:


                          My grandmother was from Bohemia and grandfather from Moravia - they met and married in Chicago and there did not seem to be any problem between the two sections of the Austrian Hungarian Empire to prevent this union.  How great it is that these old prejudices were MOSTLY overcome when our ancestors emigrated to USA.
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Sir John
                          Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 07:10
                          Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                          Patricia,
                           
                          Funny comment you maternal grandparents made - never heard that before.
                           
                          My paternal gt/grandparents  came from Moravia.  One son, my grandfather, always said the family was Bohemians.  I never heard him mention Moravia and never heard that word until I began searching the family genealogy in the mid 90's. 

                          Sir John, Earl of Berkshire
                          What good is information if not shared with others?

                          --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net> wrote:

                          From: Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net>
                          Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                          To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:18 AM

                          I grew up hearing from my mother's family that the only difference between a Czech and a Bohemian was $2500. My mother claimed her family (Schwertnerss & Driska's) were Bohemian.
                           
                          Pat Cosper

                          --- On Thu, 4/2/09, CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com> wrote:

                          From: CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com>
                          Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                          To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:14 AM

                          Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight. 
                          For many years, I often wondered why being called a Bohemian was so bad. I think that those of us who were born in Texas often did not realize that our Moravian ancestors made such a distinction between Moravia and Bohemia so the only answers that anyone could give was the old standard joke that Czechs were Bohemians who had lots of money, or sometimes vice the versa.
                          Eventually, I came to the realization that our immigrant ancestors in Texas who emigrated from Moravia were proud of where they came from and did not want their homeland confused with Bohemia.  I think that the fact that Czechs up North and in the Mid West, most of whose ancestors emigrated from Bohemia do not mind being called Bohemians bears out this fact.



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                        • Allen Livanec
                          The Moravians were the first to immigrate to Texas in the !850 s. They were protestant members of the Bretheren church. The protestants in Moravia were
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 20, 2009
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                            The Moravians were the first to immigrate to Texas in the !850's. They were protestant members of the Bretheren church. The protestants in Moravia were persecuted by the Catholic Austrio  Hungarians (The Hapsburgs) for refusing to become Catholics. Not only the Moravians but the Bohemian protestants also.

                            --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Paula Foster <pfosterbmt@...> wrote:

                            From: Paula Foster <pfosterbmt@...>
                            Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                            To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 7:00 PM

                            Madelyn, You are right about most were Catholic by birth.  The other religions quiet frankly I need help here.  I want to say Brethan was of them, but at the moment I am having a "brain freeze".  I know I have read it on line here.  paulasmaggie
                          • janapivec
                            IMHO I think the point is that when our ancestors came over, they may not have had their own country , but they had for centuries had their own kingdoms, the
                            Message 13 of 21 , Apr 21, 2009
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                              IMHO I think the point is that when our ancestors came over, they may not have "had their own country", but they had for centuries had their own kingdoms, the kingdom of Bohemia and the kingdom of Moravia. Their heritage was tied to their kingdom. The country was not united until after the first world war.


                              --- In TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com, d1jezek@... wrote:
                              >
                              > My father always says we're Bohemian, and in terms of geography i think
                              > Cermna is in the part of the Czech Republic that was Bohemia. My grandmother
                              > was Moravian, but i don't remember anyone ever mentioning that. that
                              > could be because i never thought to ask.
                              > Could the confusion or active choice of a word to describe the family's
                              > ethnic background be the result of the fact that when most of our ancestors
                              > came to Texas the Czech people really didn't have their own country at all?
                              > so they might have been attached to the idea of Bohemia, or they might have
                              > just felt that by virtue of the shared language the best description was
                              > 'Czech'.
                              > or maybe it's something like the way Texans think of themselves as Texans
                              > and also Americans.
                              >
                            • Joe Janecka
                              I have to add my 2 cents. The Hussite wars were fought from 1419-1434, primarily between the Hussites, (free thinkers, Protestants, Brethren etc), and the
                              Message 14 of 21 , Apr 21, 2009
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                                I have to add my 2 cents. 
                                The Hussite wars were fought from 1419-1434, primarily between the Hussites, (free thinkers, Protestants, Brethren etc), and the Catholics.  The war ended with major concessions from the Catholic church detailed in the Basle Concordat which stated that:
                                    
                                I. The free preaching of the Word. (Other religions tolerated)
                                II. The right of the laity to the Cup, and the use of the vernacular tongue in all parts of Divine worship. (Laity allowed wine at communion and mass was said in Czech)
                                III. The ineligibility of the clergy to secular office and rule. (Self explanatory)
                                IV. The execution of the laws in the case of all crimes, without respect of persons. (Could no longer buy forgiveness for crimes and sins)
                                 
                                Various religions were tolerated after this time until about 1618 when the Holy Roman emperor thought that everyone should be a Catholic again.  This prompted the 30 years war in which the Protestant Czechs and Moravians were defeated by the Austrian, Hungarian, Spanish and Bavarian Catholic armies at the battle of White mountain in 1620.  After that defeat, the Czech and Moravian lands became part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and you either converted to Catholicism, put to death or exiled.  Everyone became a Catholic.  :-))  Tolerance for other religions did not come until the 19th century when there was an easing up due to the results of the French revolution.  (Emperors and Kings all became more flexible with the guillotine on the line). Most of the Czechs and Moravians had become Catholic by then anyway.
                                 
                                Lots of good Czech history on the internet.  Just google "Czech History".  It is real interesting.
                                 
                                Joe
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 7:00 PM
                                Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                Madelyn, You are right about most were Catholic by birth.  The other religions quiet frankly I need help here.  I want to say Brethan was of them, but at the moment I am having a "brain freeze".  I know I have read it on line here.  paulasmaggie


                                From: Madelyn Dusek <mdusek@earthlink. net>
                                To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 6:56:14 PM
                                Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                Which religion was the subject of the persecution? Moravians did not have one religion. Most were probably Catholic by birth. Just wondering.
                                Madelyn
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 6:35 PM
                                Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                Our Families who came from Moravia had our own Language and Traditions.  They were under the "thumb" of the Austrian-Empire which put them at the "bottom of the ladder".  This means  a lot of Moravians could not own land, the worked their buns off for someone else and was taxed and taxed.  The boys when they turned 18 had to join the Military for I believe 7 years.  The Moravians were also persecuted for their religion.  This way there was a "mass" exit in the 1850s-1860s. then again in the 1880s.  Several Families came to Hranice which I have written about to carry on these Traditions and Language.    paulasmaggie


                                From: "d1jezek@aol. com" <d1jezek@aol. com>
                                To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 5:58:21 PM
                                Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                My father always says we're Bohemian, and in terms of geography i think Cermna is in the part of the Czech Republic that was Bohemia.  My grandmother was Moravian, but i don't remember anyone ever mentioning that.  that could be because i never thought to ask.
                                Could the confusion or active choice of a word to describe the family's ethnic background be the result of the fact that when most of our ancestors came to Texas the Czech people really didn't have their own country at all?  so they might have been attached to the idea of Bohemia, or they might have just felt that by virtue of the shared language the best description was 'Czech'.
                                or maybe it's something like the way Texans think of themselves as Texans and also Americans.
                                 
                                In a message dated 4/20/2009 1:45:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, diannbiltz@charter. net writes:


                                My grandmother was from Bohemia and grandfather from Moravia - they met and married in Chicago and there did not seem to be any problem between the two sections of the Austrian Hungarian Empire to prevent this union.  How great it is that these old prejudices were MOSTLY overcome when our ancestors emigrated to USA.
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Sir John
                                Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 07:10
                                Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                Patricia,
                                 
                                Funny comment you maternal grandparents made - never heard that before.
                                 
                                My paternal gt/grandparents  came from Moravia.  One son, my grandfather, always said the family was Bohemians.  I never heard him mention Moravia and never heard that word until I began searching the family genealogy in the mid 90's. 

                                Sir John, Earl of Berkshire
                                What good is information if not shared with others?

                                --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net> wrote:

                                From: Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net>
                                Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                                To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:18 AM

                                I grew up hearing from my mother's family that the only difference between a Czech and a Bohemian was $2500. My mother claimed her family (Schwertnerss & Driska's) were Bohemian.
                                 
                                Pat Cosper

                                --- On Thu, 4/2/09, CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com> wrote:

                                From: CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com>
                                Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                                To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:14 AM

                                Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight. 
                                For many years, I often wondered why being called a Bohemian was so bad. I think that those of us who were born in Texas often did not realize that our Moravian ancestors made such a distinction between Moravia and Bohemia so the only answers that anyone could give was the old standard joke that Czechs were Bohemians who had lots of money, or sometimes vice the versa.
                                Eventually, I came to the realization that our immigrant ancestors in Texas who emigrated from Moravia were proud of where they came from and did not want their homeland confused with Bohemia.  I think that the fact that Czechs up North and in the Mid West, most of whose ancestors emigrated from Bohemia do not mind being called Bohemians bears out this fact.



                                Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar!



                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.1/2071 - Release Date: 04/21/09 08:30:00
                              • Joe Janecka
                                Since they came from there they would have probably referred to their place of origin in Czech. Já jsem z Cechach and Já jsem z Moravy . Bohemia is what
                                Message 15 of 21 , Apr 21, 2009
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                                  Since they came from there they would have probably referred to their place of origin in Czech.  "Já jsem z Čechach" and "Já jsem z Moravy".  Bohemia is what other nationalities, such as the Germans call Čechy.
                                   
                                  Joe
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 4:31 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                   My mother & father used to have some heated discussions about Bohemians & Czechs. My father was a proud Czech. My mother said she was Bohemian not Czech. No Moravians on either side that I know of back to 1806.

                                  --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Diann Biltz <diannbiltz@charter. net> wrote:
                                  From: Diann Biltz <diannbiltz@charter. net>
                                  Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                                  To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:44 PM

                                  My grandmother was from Bohemia and grandfather from Moravia - they met and married in Chicago and there did not seem to be any problem between the two sections of the Austrian Hungarian Empire to prevent this union.  How great it is that these old prejudices were MOSTLY overcome when our ancestors emigrated to USA.
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Sir John
                                  Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 07:10
                                  Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                  Patricia,
                                   
                                  Funny comment you maternal grandparents made - never heard that before.
                                   
                                  My paternal gt/grandparents  came from Moravia.  One son, my grandfather, always said the family was Bohemians.  I never heard him mention Moravia and never heard that word until I began searching the family genealogy in the mid 90's. 

                                  Sir John, Earl of Berkshire
                                  What good is information if not shared with others?

                                  --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net> wrote:

                                  From: Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net>
                                  Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                                  To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:18 AM

                                  I grew up hearing from my mother's family that the only difference between a Czech and a Bohemian was $2500. My mother claimed her family (Schwertnerss & Driska's) were Bohemian.
                                   
                                  Pat Cosper

                                  --- On Thu, 4/2/09, CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com> wrote:

                                  From: CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com>
                                  Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                                  To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:14 AM

                                  Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight. 
                                  For many years, I often wondered why being called a Bohemian was so bad. I think that those of us who were born in Texas often did not realize that our Moravian ancestors made such a distinction between Moravia and Bohemia so the only answers that anyone could give was the old standard joke that Czechs were Bohemians who had lots of money, or sometimes vice the versa.
                                  Eventually, I came to the realization that our immigrant ancestors in Texas who emigrated from Moravia were proud of where they came from and did not want their homeland confused with Bohemia.  I think that the fact that Czechs up North and in the Mid West, most of whose ancestors emigrated from Bohemia do not mind being called Bohemians bears out this fact.



                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                  Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.1/2071 - Release Date: 04/21/09 08:30:00
                                • Jana Vaculik
                                  There is phrase in Moravia and Slovakia: Put a Czech a sack and throw the sack in the Danube river.
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Apr 21, 2009
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                                    There is phrase in Moravia and Slovakia: Put a Czech a sack and throw the sack in the Danube river.




                                    --- In TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Janecka" <joejanecka@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Since they came from there they would have probably referred to their place of origin in Czech. "Já jsem z Cechach" and "Já jsem z Moravy". Bohemia is what other nationalities, such as the Germans call Cechy.
                                    >
                                    > Joe
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Allen Livanec
                                    > To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 4:31 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > My mother & father used to have some heated discussions about Bohemians & Czechs. My father was a proud Czech. My mother said she was Bohemian not Czech. No Moravians on either side that I know of back to 1806.
                                    >
                                    > --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Diann Biltz <diannbiltz@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > From: Diann Biltz <diannbiltz@...>
                                    > Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                                    > To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:44 PM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > My grandmother was from Bohemia and grandfather from Moravia - they met and married in Chicago and there did not seem to be any problem between the two sections of the Austrian Hungarian Empire to prevent this union. How great it is that these old prejudices were MOSTLY overcome when our ancestors emigrated to USA.
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Sir John
                                    > To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 07:10
                                    > Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Patricia,
                                    >
                                    > Funny comment you maternal grandparents made - never heard that before.
                                    >
                                    > My paternal gt/grandparents came from Moravia. One son, my grandfather, always said the family was Bohemians. I never heard him mention Moravia and never heard that word until I began searching the family genealogy in the mid 90's.
                                    >
                                    > Sir John, Earl of Berkshire
                                    > What good is information if not shared with others?
                                    >
                                    > --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net>
                                    > Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                                    > To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:18 AM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I grew up hearing from my mother's family that the only difference between a Czech and a Bohemian was $2500. My mother claimed her family (Schwertnerss & Driska's) were Bohemian.
                                    >
                                    > Pat Cosper
                                    >
                                    > --- On Thu, 4/2/09, CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > From: CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com>
                                    > Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                                    > To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:14 AM
                                    >
                                    > Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight.
                                    > For many years, I often wondered why being called a Bohemian was so bad. I think that those of us who were born in Texas often did not realize that our Moravian ancestors made such a distinction between Moravia and Bohemia so the only answers that anyone could give was the old standard joke that Czechs were Bohemians who had lots of money, or sometimes vice the versa.
                                    > Eventually, I came to the realization that our immigrant ancestors in Texas who emigrated from Moravia were proud of where they came from and did not want their homeland confused with Bohemia. I think that the fact that Czechs up North and in the Mid West, most of whose ancestors emigrated from Bohemia do not mind being called Bohemians bears out this fact.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                    > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                    > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.1/2071 - Release Date: 04/21/09 08:30:00
                                    >
                                  • d1jezek@aol.com
                                    there is an actual Moravian church. i don t think we have many (or any to speak of) in Texas, but apparently in the eastern states the Czech areas have them.
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Apr 21, 2009
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                                      there is an actual Moravian church.  i don't think we have many (or any to speak of) in Texas, but apparently in the eastern states the Czech areas have them. it isn't the same thing as Unity of the Bretheren.
                                       
                                      In a message dated 4/20/2009 7:00:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, pfosterbmt@... writes:


                                      Madelyn, You are right about most were Catholic by birth.  The other religions quiet frankly I need help here.  I want to say Brethan was of them, but at the moment I am having a "brain freeze".  I know I have read it on line here.  paulasmaggie


                                      From: Madelyn Dusek <mdusek@...>
                                      To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 6:56:14 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                      Which religion was the subject of the persecution? Moravians did not have one religion. Most were probably Catholic by birth. Just wondering.
                                      Madelyn
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 6:35 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                      Our Families who came from Moravia had our own Language and Traditions.  They were under the "thumb" of the Austrian-Empire which put them at the "bottom of the ladder".  This means  a lot of Moravians could not own land, the worked their buns off for someone else and was taxed and taxed.  The boys when they turned 18 had to join the Military for I believe 7 years.  The Moravians were also persecuted for their religion.  This way there was a "mass" exit in the 1850s-1860s. then again in the 1880s.  Several Families came to Hranice which I have written about to carry on these Traditions and Language.    paulasmaggie


                                      From: "d1jezek@aol. com" <d1jezek@aol. com>
                                      To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                      Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 5:58:21 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                      My father always says we're Bohemian, and in terms of geography i think Cermna is in the part of the Czech Republic that was Bohemia.  My grandmother was Moravian, but i don't remember anyone ever mentioning that.  that could be because i never thought to ask.
                                      Could the confusion or active choice of a word to describe the family's ethnic background be the result of the fact that when most of our ancestors came to Texas the Czech people really didn't have their own country at all?  so they might have been attached to the idea of Bohemia, or they might have just felt that by virtue of the shared language the best description was 'Czech'.
                                      or maybe it's something like the way Texans think of themselves as Texans and also Americans.
                                       
                                      In a message dated 4/20/2009 1:45:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, diannbiltz@charter. net writes:


                                      My grandmother was from Bohemia and grandfather from Moravia - they met and married in Chicago and there did not seem to be any problem between the two sections of the Austrian Hungarian Empire to prevent this union.  How great it is that these old prejudices were MOSTLY overcome when our ancestors emigrated to USA.
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Sir John
                                      Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 07:10
                                      Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                      Patricia,
                                       
                                      Funny comment you maternal grandparents made - never heard that before.
                                       
                                      My paternal gt/grandparents  came from Moravia.  One son, my grandfather, always said the family was Bohemians.  I never heard him mention Moravia and never heard that word until I began searching the family genealogy in the mid 90's. 

                                      Sir John, Earl of Berkshire
                                      What good isinformation if not shared with others?

                                      --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net> wrote:

                                      From: Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net>
                                      Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                                      To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:18 AM

                                      I grew up hearing from my mother's family that the only difference between a Czech and a Bohemian was $2500. My mother claimed her family (Schwertnerss & Driska's) were Bohemian.
                                       
                                      Pat Cosper

                                      --- On Thu, 4/2/09, CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com> wrote:

                                      From: CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com>
                                      Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                                      To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:14 AM

                                      Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight. 
                                      For many years, I often wondered why being called a Bohemian was so bad. I think that those of us who were born in Texas often did not realize that our Moravian ancestors made such a distinction between Moravia and Bohemia so the only answers that anyone could give was the old standard joke that Czechs were Bohemians who had lots of money, or sometimes vice the versa.
                                      Eventually, I came to the realization that our immigrant ancestors in Texas who emigrated from Moravia were proud of where they came from and did not want their homeland confused with Bohemia.  I think that the fact that Czechs up North and in the Mid West, most of whose ancestors emigrated from Bohemia do not mind being called Bohemians bears out this fact.



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                                    • d1jezek@aol.com
                                      Martin Luther didn t come on the scene until 1517, so these people were sort of proto-protestants, a full century ahead! In a message dated 4/21/2009 11:20:29
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Apr 21, 2009
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                                        Martin Luther didn't come on the scene until 1517, so these people were sort of proto-protestants, a full century ahead!
                                         
                                        In a message dated 4/21/2009 11:20:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time, joejanecka@... writes:


                                        I have to add my 2 cents. 
                                        The Hussite wars were fought from 1419-1434, primarily between the Hussites, (free thinkers, Protestants, Brethren etc), and the Catholics.  The war ended with major concessions from the Catholic church detailed in the Basle Concordat which stated that:
                                            
                                        I. The free preaching of the Word. (Other religions tolerated)
                                        II. The right of the laity to the Cup, and the use of the vernacular tongue in all parts of Divine worship. (Laity allowed wine at communion and mass was said in Czech)
                                        III. The ineligibility of the clergy to secular office and rule. (Self explanatory)
                                        IV. The execution of the laws in the case of all crimes, without respect of persons. (Could no longer buy forgiveness for crimes and sins)
                                         
                                        Various religions were tolerated after this time until about 1618 when the Holy Roman emperor thought that everyone should be a Catholic again.  This prompted the 30 years war in which the Protestant Czechs and Moravians were defeated by the Austrian, Hungarian, Spanish and Bavarian Catholic armies at the battle of White mountain in 1620.  After that defeat, the Czech and Moravian lands became part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and you either converted to Catholicism, put to death or exiled.  Everyone became a Catholic.  :-))  Tolerance for other religions did not come until the 19th century when there was an easing up due to the results of the French revolution.  (Emperors and Kings all became more flexible with the guillotine on the line). Most of the Czechs and Moravians had become Catholic by then anyway.
                                         
                                        Lots of good Czech history on the internet.  Just google "Czech History".  It is real interesting.
                                         
                                        Joe
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 7:00 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                        Madelyn, You are right about most were Catholic by birth.  The other religions quiet frankly I need help here.  I want to say Brethan was of them, but at the moment I am having a "brain freeze".  I know I have read it on line here.  paulasmaggie


                                        From: Madelyn Dusek <mdusek@earthlink. net>
                                        To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                        Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 6:56:14 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                        Which religion was the subject of the persecution? Moravians did not have one religion. Most were probably Catholic by birth. Just wondering.
                                        Madelyn
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 6:35 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                        Our Families who came from Moravia had our own Language and Traditions.  They were under the "thumb" of the Austrian-Empire which put them at the "bottom of the ladder".  This means  a lot of Moravians could not own land, the worked their buns off for someone else and was taxed and taxed.  The boys when they turned 18 had to join the Military for I believe 7 years.  The Moravians were also persecuted for their religion.  This way there was a "mass" exit in the 1850s-1860s. then again in the 1880s.  Several Families came to Hranice which I have written about to carry on these Traditions and Language.    paulasmaggie


                                        From: "d1jezek@aol. com" <d1jezek@aol. com>
                                        To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                        Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 5:58:21 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                        My father always says we're Bohemian, and in terms of geography i think Cermna is in the part of the Czech Republic that was Bohemia.  My grandmother was Moravian, but i don't remember anyone ever mentioning that.  that could be because i never thought to ask.
                                        Could the confusion or active choice of a word to describe the family's ethnic background be the result of the fact that when most of our ancestors came to Texas the Czech people really didn't have their own country at all?  so they might have been attached to the idea of Bohemia, or they might have just felt that by virtue of the shared language the best description was 'Czech'.
                                        or maybe it's something like the way Texans think of themselves as Texans and also Americans.
                                         
                                        In a message dated 4/20/2009 1:45:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, diannbiltz@charter. net writes:


                                        My grandmother was from Bohemia and grandfather from Moravia - they met and married in Chicago and there did not seem to be any problem between the two sections of the Austrian Hungarian Empire to prevent this union.  How great it is that these old prejudices were MOSTLY overcome when our ancestors emigrated to USA.
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Sir John
                                        Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 07:10
                                        Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin

                                        Patricia,
                                         
                                        Funny comment you maternal grandparents made - never heard that before.
                                         
                                        My paternal gt/grandparents  came from Moravia.  One son, my grandfather, always said the family was Bohemians.  I never heard him mention Moravia and never heard that word until I began searching the family genealogy in the mid 90's. 

                                        Sir John, Earl of Berkshire
                                        What good is information if not shared with others?

                                        --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net> wrote:

                                        From: Patricia Cosper <pcosper@att. net>
                                        Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                                        To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                        Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:18 AM

                                        I grew up hearing from my mother's family that the only difference between a Czech and a Bohemian was $2500. My mother claimed her family (Schwertnerss & Driska's) were Bohemian.
                                         
                                        Pat Cosper

                                        --- On Thu, 4/2/09, CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com> wrote:

                                        From: CWarschak@aol. com <CWarschak@aol. com>
                                        Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Census entries and "Czech" Places of Origin
                                        To: TexasCzechs@ yahoogroups. com
                                        Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:14 AM

                                        Here in Texas, among the older generations, calling someone a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight. 
                                        For many years, I often wondered why being called a Bohemian was so bad. I think that those of us who were born in Texas often did not realize that our Moravian ancestors made such a distinction between Moravia and Bohemia so the only answers that anyone could give was the old standard joke that Czechs were Bohemians who had lots of money, or sometimes vice the versa.
                                        Eventually, I came to the realization that our immigrant ancestors in Texas who emigrated from Moravia were proud of where they came from and did not want their homeland confused with Bohemia.  I think that the fact that Czechs up North and in the Mid West, most of whose ancestors emigrated from Bohemia do not mind being called Bohemians bears out this fact.



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                                      • Sharon Perkins
                                        I ve been following with great interest the discussion about religious affiliations among Czech immigrants to Texas.  As part of my doctoral studies, I
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Apr 22, 2009
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                                          I've been following with great interest the discussion about religious affiliations among Czech immigrants to Texas.  As part of my doctoral studies, I wrote an academic seminar paper entitled "Religious Pluralism Among Czech Immigrants to Texas" that was delivered at a conference in Ceske Budejovice and also published in the Spring 2006 issue of KOSMAS, the journal of the Czechoslovak Society of Arts and Sciences  (http://www.svu2000.org/svu/), which is meeting at Texas A&M this summer.  The article itself traces some of the history that has been mentioned in recent posts.  I've uploaded the file to the Texas Czechs site (labeled "Moravian Brethren Paper") and perhaps some of you would enjoy reading it (please don't copy or distribute without permission).  I am Catholic, but when I presented it there were Moravian Brethren ministers in the audience and they said I represented them fairly and accurately.

                                          Sharon K. Perkins
                                          University of Dayton
                                          300 College Park
                                          Dayton, OH 45469-1530
                                          (817)676-2666
                                          skperkins@...
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