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Re: [TexasCzechs] German/Czech Interaction WWII era

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  • livanec@aol.com
    Sorry! I have no sympathy for germans who were displaced. Considering what the german people did to the Czech people during occupancy of Czechoslovakia prior
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
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      Sorry! I have no sympathy for germans who were displaced. Considering what the german people did to the Czech people during occupancy of Czechoslovakia prior to and during WW2. (remember Lidice) You use the term Sudentenland to infer this was german territory.
    • Lois Petter Pereira
      Actually it was Germanic and Celtic lands prior to the Slavs arriving in the 6th century http://www.czechsite.com/history.html I also remember hearing stories
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
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        Actually it was Germanic and Celtic lands prior to the Slavs arriving in the 6th century
        I also remember hearing stories of the Nazis rounding up the Gypsies in Bohemia and sending them to the gas chambers.
        As far as the German, Bohemian,Czech Moravian and Polish languages, they are somewhat similar and I remember church feasts where each person was speaking their language and they were able to communicate. I think Texas was the first United Nations   lois petter pereira

        livanec@... wrote:
        Sorry! I have no sympathy for germans who were displaced. Considering what the german people did to the Czech people during occupancy of Czechoslovakia prior to and during WW2. (remember Lidice) You use the term Sudentenland to infer this was german territory.



        Lois Petter Pereira
        Researching Petter, Vitek, Bartos, Papez, Polasek, Kostelnik, Rada, Hlavica, Orsak, Urban, Susil, Manak, Rosenzwieg, Brdusikova, Halla, Psencikove, Slovakove, Susila, Susily
      • Lois Petter Pereira
        It all seems to just go around in a circle. When the Russians invaded modern Czechoslovakia they mandated who worked in what field. My family there were told
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
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           It all seems to just go around in a circle. When the Russians invaded modern Czechoslovakia they mandated who worked in what field. My family there were told what they would now do. They needed miners so they took a glassmaker and put him in the mines. He suffered a terrible mine accident and was paralyzed from the waist down. He was released from mine duty but he could no longer go back to his love, glassmaking since he had no use of his legs.  Actually, it reminds me of all the wars from the beginning of time. Someone always has a bigger stick and wants to use it. All this land was owned by a previous people and i wish we could step back, take a deep breath and try to better the relations between each other but deep in my heart i know that won't happen. At least we are a close knit group and we all have different heritages in our background and we seem to have found the secret...love each one of you..........lois petter pereira    
          >
          >
          > During World War II, Czech military evacuated all German citizens from
          > Czechoslovakia and put them into work camps. Their homes and all their
          > possessions were taken from them. Englebert Adam III, put in a work camp
          > in Ostrau - a town just outside of Jaegerndorf. There he did forced labor
          > for the Russian and Czech military. His wife, daughter and rest of his
          > family were put into other work camps throughout Jaegerndorf area.
          >





          Lois Petter Pereira
          Researching Petter, Vitek, Bartos, Papez, Polasek, Kostelnik, Rada, Hlavica, Orsak, Urban, Susil, Manak, Rosenzwieg, Brdusikova, Halla, Psencikove, Slovakove, Susila, Susily
        • George Patrick
          But, whose land was it prior to the invasion by the Roman Empire led by Germania? George ... From: Lois Petter Pereira To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com Sent:
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
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            But, whose land was it prior to the invasion by the Roman Empire led by Germania?
             
            George
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 8:55 AM
            Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] German/Czech Interaction WWII era

            Actually it was Germanic and Celtic lands prior to the Slavs arriving in the 6th century
            I also remember hearing stories of the Nazis rounding up the Gypsies in Bohemia and sending them to the gas chambers.
            As far as the German, Bohemian,Czech Moravian and Polish languages, they are somewhat similar and I remember church feasts where each person was speaking their language and they were able to communicate. I think Texas was the first United Nations   lois petter pereira

            livanec@... wrote:
            Sorry! I have no sympathy for germans who were displaced. Considering what the german people did to the Czech people during occupancy of Czechoslovakia prior to and during WW2. (remember Lidice) You use the term Sudentenland to infer this was german territory.



            Lois Petter Pereira
            Researching Petter, Vitek, Bartos, Papez, Polasek, Kostelnik, Rada, Hlavica, Orsak, Urban, Susil, Manak, Rosenzwieg, Brdusikova, Halla, Psencikove, Slovakove, Susila, Susily


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          • Jennifer Moore
            I m really sorry I shared my grandmother s story. I did not mean to get everyone so riled up. I have both German and Czech heritage, Polish too for that
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
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              I'm really sorry I shared my grandmother's story. I did not mean to get
              everyone so riled up. I have both German and Czech heritage, Polish too
              for that matter. I simply thought it was interesting.

              The land in question, and for that matter most land in Europe, changed
              rulers, countries so many times. I have a relative who was drafted to
              serve in the Austrian army, even though he was Czech. You can't change the
              past. To me, it's all just interesting. It's important to know, because if
              you don't know history you're doomed to repeat it.

              I like the fact this group is so sharing. I have been able to learn so
              much by what people have shared, not just about my particular ancestors
              but about everyone's ancestors. It's interesting.

              Jennifer

              > But, whose land was it prior to the invasion by the Roman Empire led by
              > Germania?
              >
              > George
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Lois Petter Pereira
              > To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 8:55 AM
              > Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] German/Czech Interaction WWII era
              >
              >
              > Actually it was Germanic and Celtic lands prior to the Slavs arriving in
              > the 6th century
              > http://www.czechsite.com/history.html
              > I also remember hearing stories of the Nazis rounding up the Gypsies in
              > Bohemia and sending them to the gas chambers.
              > As far as the German, Bohemian,Czech Moravian and Polish languages, they
              > are somewhat similar and I remember church feasts where each person was
              > speaking their language and they were able to communicate. I think Texas
              > was the first United Nations lois petter pereira
              >
              > livanec@... wrote:
              > Sorry! I have no sympathy for germans who were displaced. Considering
              > what the german people did to the Czech people during occupancy of
              > Czechoslovakia prior to and during WW2. (remember Lidice) You use the
              > term Sudentenland to infer this was german territory.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Lois Petter Pereira
              > Researching Petter, Vitek, Bartos, Papez, Polasek, Kostelnik, Rada,
              > Hlavica, Orsak, Urban, Susil, Manak, Rosenzwieg, Brdusikova, Halla,
              > Psencikove, Slovakove, Susila, Susily
              >
              >
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            • Jim Hlavac
              War, Oppression, Guilt and Responsibility in Europe: 2000BC to 2000AD Ah Europe, where the entire long history of the place, from the Artic to the
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 1, 2006
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                War, Oppression, Guilt and Responsibility in Europe:  2000BC to 2000AD
                Ah Europe, where the entire long history of the place, from the Artic to the Mediterranean, from the Atlantic to the Urals and steppes of Asia -- has been one of the people "here" subjecting the people "there" to utter horror, war, slaughter, land grabs, dispossession, ethnic cleansing, and complete mayhem, death and murder since about 2000BC (Greek warring states against each other)  -- and continuing nearly uninterruptedly for the next 4,000 years, or until about the end of WWII (though even then there was the invasion of Hungary in '56, of Czechoslovakia in '68, of Poland in '81, and the Serbs against the non-Serbs in late '90s.)
                -- Nary a decade in any corner of that continent had been free of war and state-sponsonsored destruction or subjugation and suppression of the "other" in this long time -- whether against their neighbors or against their own people.
                -- And no people, or nation, or ethnic group, or princely state, or even so-called democracy had been free from guilt in this regard.
                -- Nor has any people, etc. been free from those attacks.
                -- And no people currently where they are today in Europe are where they started out from (save perhaps for the Basque) but instead slaughtered or removed or chased away those who were there before them, while pillaging, raping and destroying those who weren't killed or chased away.
                -- It would take thousands of pages to give just a one page description of every war and warlike campaign by Europeans against Europeans, and anyone around the fringes, for the 4,000 years of recorded history of Europe. 
                -- The continent was a violent place -- and only three things have served to stop it:
                1.  Parking the American 6th Army in Weisbaden Germany for the past 60 years
                2.  The continuing cold war (now lite) against the Russians by America
                3.  The bombing of the Serbs into submission of peace by America, where we once again had to park an army to prevent the slaughter.
                If left to themselves, Europeans would be at war with each in a heartbeat -- but fortunately we dear Americans (mostly of European descent) have put a stop to it -- and that's why we maintain a troop garrison or base in nearly every country in Europe today -- indeed, we have more troops in Europe today than we do in Iraq -- and all to keep those people from slaughtering each other.   
                He who is without sin, you cast that stone -- but no European could dare to pick that stone up -- for they were all guilty in their time and place -- Czechs included (hear about the wall built around the gypsy part of the city of Usti nad Labem in 2000? Yes, our dear Czech brethren creating ghettoes in this current time!)
                Far be it for any American to defend their forebearers or accuse another's in Europe from the charge of war, oppression, ethnic cleansing, destruction, murder, mayhem and suppression -- for none there are innocent. 
                That some in Europe were "better" at their misdeeds than others does not exonerate the rest of them. 
                So accuse the lot of them -- and wonder at the human stories of suffering that that violent continent produced year in an year out for 4,000 years.  Yea, that they surface, such as Jennifer Moore's.
                Cheers
                Jim Hlavac
                 
                 
                 
                 


                Jennifer Moore <kubicek@...> wrote:
                After WWI and before Hitler's fanaticism, I believe the German citizens in
                the Sudentenland and the Czech citizens lived peacefully. Although,
                somewhat separately, because of the language differences. Obviously, in
                the the late 1930's, 1938 I believe, Hitler annexed the Sudentenland and
                probably submitted the Czech citizens and German citizens as well to the
                "purge" of what he considered non-Aryans. Although he was really spreading
                his resources thin, so I'm not sure how much "purging" he did in the
                Sudentenland. But he was a fanatic, considering he had Jewish heritage
                himself. Plus he

                Keep in mind, I was not sharing my story to slam the Czechs. I was just
                sharing. I thought it was interesting how my German side interacted with
                the Czech area. The Czechs were simply protecting themselves from further
                interference from Germans.

                > What did the germans do the Czech people prior to and during WW2?
                >




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              • CWarschak@aol.com
                I, too, am of German and Czech ancestry and would prefer to stay neutral, however, I think that it is important that I point out a couple of facts that seem to
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 2, 2006
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                      I, too, am of German and Czech ancestry and would prefer to stay neutral, however, I think that it is important that I point out a couple of facts that seem to continue to be overlooked. 
                      I agree that there is no justification for what Hitler and his sympathizers did to the Czechs.  I would never defend anyone who committed such attrocities against any other group of people. I also realize that the Czechs were angry and felt that they wanted to "get even" with those "blankety-blank" Germans. 
                      Unfortunately, however, the fact that those who defend the actions of the Czechs against all Germans living in the Czech lands don't seem to understand is that many people of German ancestry did not agree with the things that Hitler did. (My Sudeten German ancestors who lived on the same property in Austrian Silesia for many generations prior to WW II certainly were not in favor of the atrocities committed by Hitler.  In fact, in a letter written to my grandmother in the late 1940s by one of her Sudeten German cousins, whose family was a victim of this ethnic cleansing, he states "our own people (Hitler) brought this upon us".)
                      Anyone who understands this fact should realize that there can be no justification for the things that the Czechs did to those people of German ancestry who did not support Hitler.     Furthermore, by acknowledging that not all Germans supported Hitler the German roots of those non-supporters becomes immaterial.  In fact, it would be more accurate to say that those Czechs who participated in the "ethnic cleansing" of Czechoslovakia are guilty of the same caliber of atrocities that Hitler committed.
                      If any group should have wanted to "get even" is should have been the Jewish people.
                      Once again, I am not taking side with the Germans of the Czechs but simply pointing out the facts as I see them.
                     
                • Lois Petter Pereira
                  Jennifer, I am sorry that you feel bad. Let me say that if you were offended by what I wrote I am truly sorry. I just highlighted some Cz history from a travel
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 2, 2006
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                    Jennifer, I am sorry that you feel bad. Let me say that if you were offended by what I wrote I am truly sorry. I just highlighted some Cz history from a travel page and input what I heard about the Gypsies. I too love talking about history, could be why I am a genealogist (but not a historian, otherwise I would spend all my time on the wrong end of the book) but to personally slam someone is not my style and never will be. My belief is to "Live and let Live". I have been slammed recently by some members and all I can say is "Whatever". This is a discussion group and there is never any need to make someone else feel bad about themselves. I am sorry and I want you to continue to post. We all have mixed heritages and sometimes one of the others slip into the posts and that is what makes it interesting. Many of us are interested in traditions, recipes, family stories, history, and just how each one is doing in our lives and this is what our group is about..lois petter pereira  
                     
                     
                    Jennifer Moore <kubicek@...> wrote:
                    I'm really sorry I shared my grandmother's story. I did not mean to get
                    everyone so riled up. I have both German and Czech heritage, Polish too
                    for that matter. I simply thought it was interesting.

                    The land in question, and for that matter most land in Europe, changed
                    rulers, countries so many times. I have a relative who was drafted to
                    serve in the Austrian army, even though he was Czech. You can't change the
                    past. To me, it's all just interesting. It's important to know, because if
                    you don't know history you're doomed to repeat it.

                    I like the fact this group is so sharing. I have been able to learn so
                    much by what people have shared, not just about my particular ancestors
                    but about everyone's ancestors. It's interesting.

                    Jennifer

                     


                    Lois Petter Pereira
                    Researching Petter, Vitek, Bartos, Papez, Polasek, Kostelnik, Rada, Hlavica, Orsak, Urban, Susil, Manak, Rosenzwieg, Brdusikova, Halla, Psencikove, Slovakove, Susila, Susily
                  • Jim Hlavac
                    Rough Outline of European History 0AD - 1600AD -- The Romans to the Czechs. The Roman Empire or Rebublic, under the Caesers - never extended north enough to
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 2, 2006
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                      Rough Outline of European History 0AD - 1600AD -- The Romans to the Czechs.
                      The Roman Empire or Rebublic, under the Caesers - never extended north enough to ecompass what are now the Czech and Slovak lands. 
                      The Roman Empire started in roughly 100BC with the accession of the first Ceasors, of whom Julius was the most famous -- prior to that it was a "Republic" for about 300 years, prior to that the Etruscans, proto-Byzantians, Turks, Greeks, Persians, Tartars, Mongols, Assyrians, Carthegenians, Egyptians (both Pharonic and Ptolemaic -- different folks) and others were at each other's throats.
                      For the Holy Roman Empire -- see below -- back to the Romans of Rome:
                      To the southeast of current Prague the farthest "north" the Roman Empire extended was Romania -- Latin for Romans -- and indeed, Romanian is a Latin/Romance language akin to Italian and not Slavic. 
                      Nor to be confused with the Romany -- or the Gypsies -- the gypsies is a word from old English because the people were thought to be from Egypt -- Romany is their name for themselves, and there is ample evidence that they were from northern India originally, and the Romany language has it's roots in Sanskrit -- the precursor to modern Hindi -- which is also an Indo-European Language and the precursor to almost all the modern langauges of Europe, including Latin, (except Finish, Magyar and Basque)
                      The Roman Empire had outposts in present day Hungary, but the Huns, or Magyars, as they call themselves, came in the 200-300 ADs and chased them out -- Attila being the most famous, and who also sacked Rome itself in 400 or so AD.
                      The farthest due north from modern Italy the Roman Empire extended was the Tyrol in present day Austria, and at most a small temporary seasonal garrison in what is now Vienna.
                      To the immediate west it was as far north as the current German city of Cologne (Koln in German)
                      In the very far west the northern most extent was Hadrian's wall that borders between England and Scotland.  There were no Scots in Scotland at the time -- but Picts -- and the Picts were simply terrified of the wall -- which is no more than 4 feet high at it's highest - remants still remaining. There are extant reports of Picts standing a few hundred feet from the wall and talking excitedly and confusedly about that wall.  The Scots came along later and subjugated/pillaged and simply subsumed the Picts -- Runes, an ancient alphabet, records many Pictish legends, but alas, still can not be read with any certainty. 
                      Anything North and East of that rough line of demarcation -- the Danube/Rhine line basically (the Danube rises in eastern Switzerland and flows east to the Black Sea, the Rhine rises in western Switzerland and flow northeast to the Atlantic)  -- was "barbarian" territory, and the Romans did not venture.
                      By the 200s AD the Goths, Ostrogoths and Visigoths were sweeping in -- now they are in Spain and France --  followed by the Gauls and Franks (from which we get the word France) All of these sacked and pillaged Roman outposts, and ventured into Italy and destroyed Ravennia, Rome, Milan and Florence among elsewhere.  They were well to the weat of modern Italy by the 400s AD.
                      By the 400s AD the Celts were following the various --goths and then were chased out by the Slavs who arrived about 600 AD -- The Celts were famous for painting their naked bodies blue and sweeping into a town and killing and destroying anything in their path -- no green till they got to Ireland in the 600s.  They were also famous for sowing fields with salt to make them unusuable, as well as tearing apart brick by brick any building that stood (the Celts did not comprehend or like buildings -- something about a pagan devil thing)
                      Why is this not clear? because the records, such as they were, have been destroyed over the past 1600 years.  Yet though there is plenty of known history about this rather confusing time, starting with Gibbon's "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire." perhaps the first real history of the period.  But there are also plenty of Roman and Greek chroniclers of the time to read up on.
                      The end date of the Roman Empire is considered about 415 AD -- some 200 years before the first Czechs/Bohemians or Moravians arrived in modern Czech Republic.
                      The end date of the Eastern Empire is considered about 1485 when Constantinople finally fell to the Turks and Saracens (talk about a butchery time! some 200,000 inhabitants put to the sword!)
                      Now, The Holy Roman Empire -- as the old joke goes -- was neither Holy, Roman nor an Empire -- but rather a loose agglomeration of princepalities, bishoprics, city-states, dukedoms and other entities that were for awhile were under the sway of the Premysls/Bohemian Nobles, then the Hauhenstaufens, then the Hohenzollerns, then the Hapsburgs (aka Habsburgs) -- depends on the era and the "emperor" in power. It's "capitol" city was whichever the current emperor deemed fine for him -- there was no set capitol for the 1200 years of the HRE (roughly 400AD to 1600AD.)  Though Prague in the 1300s to 1500s was a major "capitol city" of the Empire.
                      The Hapsburgs, starting with Rudolph I in the early 1200s claimed Vienna as their capital -- and in 1278, under Rudolph II defeated Ottakar II of the Premysl dynasty of the Czechs , but the Hohenzollerns claimed variously Cologne, Hanover, Dresden and eventually Berlin as their capital.   There was no "Germany" as a nation until 1871 when Otto von Bismarck joined together through war the various German princepalities.  There was no Italy until the 1860s when Garibaldi founded Italy as modern nation while living in Staten Island New York (weird eh?)
                      The HRE emperor was elected by the various leaders in a Diet -- a parliament of sorts of about 180 men (no women) who met from time to time, but irregularly -- of leading nobles, cardinals, bishops, educators and other powerful folk -- it was not an hereditary position. 
                      Once the Hapsburgs seized power in Austria they turned their attention mostly to the Southeast -- though meddled in the Bohemian lands during the 1270s to 1620 period, when finally they won that war -- yes, a four hundred year long war.  A branch of the Hapsburgs also became the Kings of Spain -- Charles V was Holy Roman Emperor during Henry VIII of England's time, and put his son, Philip on the throne of Spain because Philip's mother was Juana the Mad (not kidding) daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella (of Columbus fame) and Charles' aunt was Catherine of Aragon, Henry VIII's first wife. (Henry and Catherine's daughter, Mary (Elizabeth I's half-sister) was married to Philip)
                      There was no "France" until the 1500s, when the three Henries argued over it -- Henry of Guise (northern France and a descendant of Charlemagne's son Lombard/Lorrilard) - Henry of Anjou (central and eastern France) and Henry of Navarre (Southwestern France, capitol Avignon, where a rival pope set up an office for three hundred years, yes two rival popes for this period) -- this last won the wars (and the other two had no sons) and he uttered the famous line "Paris is worth a Mass" -- because he was anti-clerical and a more or less Protestant and became a Catholic to become King of France.  (Until Elizabeth I's time, some 1/3 of "France" was acutally England -- Aquataine in the Southwest from Eleanor, wife of Henry V of England, and Normandy from William the Conquerer.)
                      It's all confusing because there were no countries as we know them today, which are almost all creatures of the post-1500s, and weren't settled until 1917 (thanks to Woodrow Wilson)   What there were were a huge number of dukedoms, kingdoms, princepalities, bishoprics, holy sees, city-states, leagues, religious orders -- Including the Dukedom/Princepality/Kingdom of Bohemian, The Margravate of Moravia, The Dukedom of Silesia, and a bunch of other scattered territories  -- all at constant war with each other for 1500 years.  Literally hundreds of "countries" all at constant war with each other.
                      Prior to 0AD it's even more confusing for few folks sat still for more than a century or two before moving on.  And of course, as they moved they raped, pillaged, destroyed, subjugated and otherwise wrecked havoc on whomever was living where they were going. 
                      Prior to roughly 200BC there was nothing but marauding bands of tribes and groups -- each killing, raping, pillaging and destroying as they went -- there were no cities, no towns, no castles, no nothing except empty land where what we call modern Humans began to come about roughly 2,000BC -- and before that, for about 8,000 years  -- and were talking several thousand years ago modern Humans came across Neanderthals -- and the modern Humans (that would be us, Homo Sapiens) simply outcompeted and/or slaughtered (and some claim intercoursed with) Neanderthals -- and that's really lost in the mysteries of the past. 
                      So -- what we know of as European nations are a creature of the pretty much the current era -- and prior to 1500 or so -- it was a melange of places, ever changing and at war with each other, and constantly displacing each other -- and not a European Nation or Ethnic Group -- save perhaps for the Basque -- can possibly claim a "right" by "birth" to a land there -- but what they have they took from someone else -- in a brutal manner to say the least. 
                      As for the Czechs -- absolutely no clear record of them prior to about 600 AD -- and when they first appear it's as tribes with a multitude of names and then about that time, or later, depends on whose doing the counting, a man named Cech (hacek on first C) had a daughter named Libuse who created the Czech nation -- this is somewhere between 700 and 900 AD -- a rather large span of time about which all is basically legend.  What we do know, though, is that the Czechs, such as they were, were just as busy slaughtering, raping, pillaging and otherwise wrecking havoc like everyone else of the period. 
                      Whew, what a blast eh? Sweep into a town, kill the men, steal the women, sell the kids and take anything that can be carried away and destroy the rest -- yep, every ethnic group in Europe acted identically -- and that's that.
                      Cheers
                      Jim Hlavac
                       
                       

                      George Patrick <GPATRICK@...> wrote:
                      But, whose land was it prior to the invasion by the Roman Empire led by Germania?
                       
                      George
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 8:55 AM
                      Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] German/Czech Interaction WWII era

                      Actually it was Germanic and Celtic lands prior to the Slavs arriving in the 6th century
                      I also remember hearing stories of the Nazis rounding up the Gypsies in Bohemia and sending them to the gas chambers.
                      As far as the German, Bohemian,Czech Moravian and Polish languages, they are somewhat similar and I remember church feasts where each person was speaking their language and they were able to communicate. I think Texas was the first United Nations   lois petter pereira

                      livanec@... wrote:
                      Sorry! I have no sympathy for germans who were displaced. Considering what the german people did to the Czech people during occupancy of Czechoslovakia prior to and during WW2. (remember Lidice) You use the term Sudentenland to infer this was german territory.



                      Lois Petter Pereira
                      Researching Petter, Vitek, Bartos, Papez, Polasek, Kostelnik, Rada, Hlavica, Orsak, Urban, Susil, Manak, Rosenzwieg, Brdusikova, Halla, Psencikove, Slovakove, Susila, Susily

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                    • livanec@aol.com
                      Let s see, how many times did Czechoslavakia invade Germany? Hmmm!!!!
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 3, 2006
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                        Let's see, how many times did Czechoslavakia invade Germany? Hmmm!!!!
                      • Jim Hlavac
                        Bohemian Invasions of Germany There being no Germany until 1871, it s a tough call -- and technically, yes, Czechoslovakia never invaded Germany since both
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 3, 2006
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                          Bohemian Invasions of "Germany"
                          There being no "Germany" until 1871, it's a tough call -- and technically, yes, Czechoslovakia never invaded Germany since both are modern constructs --
                          yet -- do not confuse the past 100 years with the long history of European skulduggery -- no country or people in Europe is innocent -- some were better at the slaughter, some more organized, and some used later technological means that had they been at the disposal of earlier rulers would have been surely used way back then.  But the psychosis of violence was there among them all. To wit:
                          Starting about 1000AD and ending in 1620 the independent country of Bohemia (one of the most powerful in Europe, since its about the only place Gold and Silver are mined on the continent)  made repeated invasions of the Independent German-speaking countries of Saxony, Brandenburg, Wurtemburg, Dresden, Hanover, Silesia, Prussia, and Bavaria -- as well as into Austria, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Italy, Serbia and Moravia  -- ah, them early Bohemian kings were a busy lot, plundering and burning and killing with the best of them.  So yes, German-speakers suffered at the hands of Bohemians, though a long time ago.
                          Also -- Bohemia over the centuries allied itself with many a nation at war with the German princely states (all independent, dozens of them,) as a way to help, say, France, or Sweden, and keep some of those German-states in a two-front war situation. 
                          When Jan of Luxembourg was King of Bohemia he took Bohemian armies on a long march accross Germany to reach the killing fields of Northern France and allied himself with the English against the French -- and when that army marched, they were hungry, and they Took what they needed, without bothering to pay, and left many a German-speaking town bereft of food.  That Bohemians were killing and/or dying as allies of the English in a war with France in France during the 1300s is surely a thing of wonderment, no?
                          Also -- when the Holy Roman Empire was centered on Prague, under Charles (the bridge and university emperor) and a few later emperors, the Bohemians ruled the roost and suppressed, over-taxed, subjugated, and otherwise stripped the rights of self-rule from city states, impressed their citizens into military service, burned at the stake heretics, slighted castles (tech term for ripping it down) of discordant German princes, and did other rather nasty things throughout the loosely formed "empire."
                          Also, during the Hussite wars, the Hussites and Taborites were not unwilling to slaughter a German-speaking town in the name of God and Country.
                          Ancient history? Surely.  But killing, raping and pillaging in the 1100s, or the 1300s, or the 1500s, or the 1700s was just as surely killing, raping and pillaging as in the 1900s -- that the names, political circumstances, organizational skills and the technology changed with the times does not make that any less so.
                          And Bohemians and Moravians were awfully good at the process for several hundred years -- and not any less willing to do it than any other European potentate. 
                           Perhaps if modern Germany was founded in Pittsburg, Penn, like modern Czechoslovakia things could have been different.  Though modern Italy's founding in Staten Island New York didn't stop the new Italian nation from immediately invading Austria, France, Serbia, Slovenia and then turn it's eye towards Libya and Ethiopia.
                          And definitely Hitler (and Stalin) stand(s) out as the unparralled leader in the 4,000 years of constant slaughter -- yet, no European prince or leader, and thus nation, was without blood on their hands.  Is invading and destroying a city in 1500 any less bad than invading and destroying a nation in 1939?  Hardly, the scale is unimportant -- it's the moral act. 
                          Was the Bohemian practice of ghettoizing the Jews and over-burdening them with rules and regulations and taxes and confiscations and even time-to-time expulsions any less than what other European Catholic/Protestant nations did? Nope -- it was part and parcel of that long sorry history -- Hitler only "improved" on what was a 2,000 year long blood sport.  Again, scale is irrelevant, the moral act is key -- and none are innocent in that misbegotten continent of violence.
                          Cheers
                          Jim Hlavac
                           
                           

                          livanec@... wrote:
                          Let's see, how many times did Czechoslavakia invade Germany? Hmmm!!!!

                          Remember: You can alway set your account to Digest Mode for less mail.





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                        • J.D. Kotrla-Chipps
                          Sad, but oh so true Jim. There is no country, of dominance, that is without sin , and therefore has to be careful about casting the first stone. I think one
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 3, 2006
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                            Sad, but oh so true Jim.  There is no country, of dominance, that is "without sin", and therefore has to be careful about casting the first stone.

                            I think one major instance of this has, thus far, not been mentioned, but the European invasion of North America, and the slaughter of the indigenous peoples here is one of the most shameful acts on which a country has ever been formed.  This isn't just historic either, it is as ongoing today, in 2006, as it was in 1492.  Only the techniques and methods have been improved upon but none-the-less result is the same, elimination of an indigenous population for the sake of conquest and obtaining what they had, for no other reason than we wanted it.  Manifest Destiny and papal bulls made it OK because indigenous peoples didn't have souls, so it was all right to kill them, and take what they had.

                            Part of my heritage, in addition to being 1/2 Czech, is Native American, and I know of which I speak.

                            Peace, 

                            J.D Kotrla (the czech part)-Chipps (the Native American part)




                            Jim Hlavac wrote:
                            Bohemian Invasions of "Germany"
                            There being no "Germany" until 1871, it's a tough call -- and technically, yes, Czechoslovakia never invaded Germany since both are modern constructs --
                            yet -- do not confuse the past 100 years with the long history of European skulduggery -- no country or people in Europe is innocent -- some were better at the slaughter, some more organized, and some used later technological means that had they been at the disposal of earlier rulers would have been surely used way back then.  But the psychosis of violence was there among them all. To wit:

                          • CWarschak@aol.com
                            Whether, or not, Czechoslovakia ever invaded Germany is absolutely no justification for the atrocities that the Czechs committed against the Sudeten Germans
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 3, 2006
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                                  Whether, or not, Czechoslovakia ever invaded Germany is absolutely no justification for the atrocities that the Czechs committed against the Sudeten Germans who did not support the actions of the Hitler regime during World War II.
                            • livanec@aol.com
                              Lets see. The Bohemians Ghetoized the jews. The germans slaughtered 6,000,000. The germans were responsible for 30 millions deaths during WW2. Lets see! How
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 3, 2006
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                                Lets see. The Bohemians Ghetoized the jews. The germans slaughtered 6,000,000. The germans were responsible for 30 millions deaths during WW2. Lets see! How many deaths were the Czechs responsible for during WW2? Hmmm! I not going to count WW1. There is a big difference between defending your home and invading someone elses.
                              • livanec@aol.com
                                You know it s funny. After WW2 ended, you could not find any germans that would admit that they supported Hitler. None of them knew about the slaugther of
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 3, 2006
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                                  You know it's funny. After WW2 ended, you could not find any germans that would admit that they supported Hitler. None of them knew about the slaugther of millions of jews and slavic people!
                                • Cindy Neal
                                  I m afraid this subject is escalating into something that has nothing to do with our Czech heritage as TEXANS. Before anyone else gets their feelings hurt,
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 3, 2006
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                                    Message
                                    I'm afraid this subject is escalating into something that has nothing to do with our Czech heritage as TEXANS.  Before anyone else gets their feelings hurt, I'm respectfully requesting that the subject be dropped.  Thanks for your cooperation.
                                     
                                    Cindy Neal
                                    Co-moderator, Texas Czechs
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of livanec@...
                                    Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 6:02 PM
                                    To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Roman Empire and Czechs

                                    You know it's funny. After WW2 ended, you could not find any germans that would admit that they supported Hitler. None of them knew about the slaugther of millions of jews and slavic people!

                                     


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                                  • Dolores Miller
                                    Has any one reas the treaty of Versailes, I believe this had a lot to do with WWII, just an opinion. livanec@aol.com wrote: What did the germans do the Czech
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 3, 2006
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                                      Has any one reas the treaty of Versailes, I  believe this had a lot to do with WWII, just an opinion.
                                       


                                      livanec@... wrote:
                                      What did the germans do the Czech people prior to and during WW2?




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                                    • Richard A Smith
                                      Thank you Cindy, I agree. Judy Smith Cindy Neal wrote: I m afraid this subject is escalating into something that has nothing to do with our
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Feb 3, 2006
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                                        Thank you Cindy, I agree.
                                         
                                        Judy Smith

                                        Cindy Neal <cindyneal@...> wrote:
                                        I'm afraid this subject is escalating into something that has nothing to do with our Czech heritage as TEXANS.  Before anyone else gets their feelings hurt, I'm respectfully requesting that the subject be dropped.  Thanks for your cooperation.
                                         
                                        Cindy Neal
                                        Co-moderator, Texas Czechs
                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of livanec@...
                                        Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 6:02 PM
                                        To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Roman Empire and Czechs

                                        You know it's funny. After WW2 ended, you could not find any germans that would admit that they supported Hitler. None of them knew about the slaugther of millions of jews and slavic people!
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                                      • Lois Petter Pereira
                                        Thanks Cindy for being there for us. i agree this is not for our forum...lois Cindy Neal wrote: I m afraid this subject is escalating
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Feb 4, 2006
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                                          Thanks Cindy for being there for us. i agree this is not for our forum...lois

                                          Cindy Neal <cindyneal@...> wrote:
                                          I'm afraid this subject is escalating into something that has nothing to do with our Czech heritage as TEXANS.  Before anyone else gets their feelings hurt, I'm respectfully requesting that the subject be dropped.  Thanks for your cooperation.
                                           
                                          Cindy Neal
                                          Co-moderator, Texas Czechs
                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of livanec@...
                                          Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 6:02 PM
                                          To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Roman Empire and Czechs

                                          You know it's funny. After WW2 ended, you could not find any germans that would admit that they supported Hitler. None of them knew about the slaugther of millions of jews and slavic people!
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                                          Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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                                          Lois Petter Pereira
                                          Researching Petter, Vitek, Bartos, Papez, Polasek, Kostelnik, Rada, Hlavica, Orsak, Urban, Susil, Manak, Rosenzwieg, Brdusikova, Halla, Psencikove, Slovakove, Susila, Susily
                                        • Martin Stepan
                                          I agree also Dorothy ... From: Richard A Smith To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 9:25 PM Subject: RE: [TexasCzechs] Roman Empire
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Feb 4, 2006
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                                            I agree also  Dorothy
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 9:25 PM
                                            Subject: RE: [TexasCzechs] Roman Empire and Czechs

                                            Thank you Cindy, I agree.
                                             
                                            Judy Smith

                                            Cindy Neal <cindyneal@...> wrote:
                                            I'm afraid this subject is escalating into something that has nothing to do with our Czech heritage as TEXANS.  Before anyone else gets their feelings hurt, I'm respectfully requesting that the subject be dropped.  Thanks for your cooperation.
                                             
                                            Cindy Neal
                                            Co-moderator, Texas Czechs
                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of livanec@...
                                            Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 6:02 PM
                                            To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Roman Empire and Czechs

                                            You know it's funny. After WW2 ended, you could not find any germans that would admit that they supported Hitler. None of them knew about the slaugther of millions of jews and slavic people!
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                                            No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                            Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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                                          • Arther K. Berkey
                                            Enough Said Arther K. Berkey ... From: Richard A Smith To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 9:25 PM Subject: RE: [TexasCzechs] Roman
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Feb 4, 2006
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                                              Enough Said
                                               
                                              Arther K. Berkey
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 9:25 PM
                                              Subject: RE: [TexasCzechs] Roman Empire and Czechs

                                              Thank you Cindy, I agree.
                                               
                                              Judy Smith

                                              Cindy Neal <cindyneal@...> wrote:
                                              I'm afraid this subject is escalating into something that has nothing to do with our Czech heritage as TEXANS.  Before anyone else gets their feelings hurt, I'm respectfully requesting that the subject be dropped.  Thanks for your cooperation.
                                               
                                              Cindy Neal
                                              Co-moderator, Texas Czechs
                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of livanec@...
                                              Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 6:02 PM
                                              To: TexasCzechs@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [TexasCzechs] Roman Empire and Czechs

                                              You know it's funny. After WW2 ended, you could not find any germans that would admit that they supported Hitler. None of them knew about the slaugther of millions of jews and slavic people!
                                              --
                                              No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                              Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                              Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/249 - Release Date: 2/2/2006


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