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Nozzles

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  • richcoluk
    Hi All, HELP!!! I,ve got as far as the nozzle design for my steam TT and have ground to a halt due to lack of available info. Questions – 1) Does the TT
    Message 1 of 8 , May 4 2:35 PM
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      Hi All,
      HELP!!!
      I,ve got as far as the nozzle design for my steam TT and have ground
      to a halt due to lack of available info.
      Questions –
      1) Does the TT normally have a slot nozzle covering the width of
      the runner bank or individual nozzles. Using 300psig with low
      superheat gives a runner gap of about 0.01" so individual nozzles
      would be mighty small.
      2) Has anyone got formulas for calculating the parameters of
      convergent (or convergent/divergent) nozzles to give a required
      output velocity from a known feed pressure.

      Any answers or pointers gratefully accepted

      Richard Coleby
    • star_wind_ca
      Richard, To the best of my knowledge only two nozzles are typically used in a Tesla turbine, one for forward another for reverse. The width of the nozzle is
      Message 2 of 8 , May 5 6:04 AM
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        Richard,

        To the best of my knowledge only two nozzles are typically used in
        a Tesla turbine, one for forward another for reverse. The width of
        the nozzle is usually a little narrower than the whole pack. A single
        nozzle for the whole pack is acceptable as the steam will flow pass
        the disks and the close spacing of the disks soon makes it laminar
        again. You may wish to recheck the disk pack spacing with Tesla's
        widths which were larger than the 0.01 you are using. The narrow
        spacing will not always give improved performance, but will greatly
        decrease available power per disk. Pay attention to the spacing
        around the end of the disks as leakage there is steam lost with no
        work done.

        Hope this helps

        Dave


        --- In TeslaTurbine@y..., "richcoluk" <richcol@t...> wrote:
        > Hi All,
        > HELP!!!
        > I,ve got as far as the nozzle design for my steam TT and have
        ground
        > to a halt due to lack of available info.
        > Questions –
        > 1) Does the TT normally have a slot nozzle covering the width of
        > the runner bank or individual nozzles. Using 300psig with low
        > superheat gives a runner gap of about 0.01" so individual nozzles
        > would be mighty small.
        > 2) Has anyone got formulas for calculating the parameters of
        > convergent (or convergent/divergent) nozzles to give a required
        > output velocity from a known feed pressure.
        >
        > Any answers or pointers gratefully accepted
        >
        > Richard Coleby
      • Mike Passerotti
        Patent 5,782,414 gives a best fit curve calculation for supersonic nozzles. The nozzle is broken into segments and each segment calculated based on parameters
        Message 3 of 8 , May 6 6:07 AM
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          Patent 5,782,414 gives a best fit curve calculation for supersonic nozzles.
          The nozzle is broken into segments and each segment calculated based on
          parameters such as nozzle diameter, pressure differential, etc.

          I have low resolution gif images for the patents I can email you if you
          want.

          I plan on using multiple nozzles to begin with. I see the disk edge as a
          major producer of turbulance, causer of back pressure at the nozzle (no more
          sonic flow), and an overall resistance to the desired power coupling. In
          the future I wanted to work with disk edge design to control flow insertion
          between the disks without using multiple nozzles.

          Using small nozzles means low flow volume with high velocity. To get both
          you have to use more nozzles. Thats my intention.

          My plan to make multiple nozzles: small brass tubing from the hobby store.
          I'll use a dull tubing cutter and roll the convergent section. Then cut the
          divergent section to the proper length. I'll solder multiple tubes inside a
          flatened copper tube (flattened oval).

          I have this link to a micro supersonic nozzle test:
          http://www.fmrl.fsu.edu/research/koustubh/koustubh/supersonic.htm

          This link is a 1mm conv/div nozzle with supersonic flow:
          http://www.fmrl.fsu.edu/research/koustubh/koustubh/fig3.jpg

          I hope to have a real test soon.

          Mike Passerotti


          -----Original Message-----
          From: richcoluk [mailto:richcol@...]
          Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:36 PM
          To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Nozzles


          Hi All,
          HELP!!!
          I,ve got as far as the nozzle design for my steam TT and have ground
          to a halt due to lack of available info.
          Questions -
          1) Does the TT normally have a slot nozzle covering the width of
          the runner bank or individual nozzles. Using 300psig with low
          superheat gives a runner gap of about 0.01" so individual nozzles
          would be mighty small.
          2) Has anyone got formulas for calculating the parameters of
          convergent (or convergent/divergent) nozzles to give a required
          output velocity from a known feed pressure.

          Any answers or pointers gratefully accepted

          Richard Coleby






          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • fred b mcgalliard
          OK. I will give you just a bit out of my ignorance. First, the nozzle is there to produce a spiraling cyclone with much of the heat energy of the inlet gas
          Message 4 of 8 , May 6 7:45 AM
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            OK. I will give you just a bit out of my ignorance. First, the nozzle is there to produce a spiraling cyclone with much of the heat energy of the inlet gas transformed into kinetic energy. So a solar low temp may be subsonic, but a really hot gas would probably only work well at high sonic velocities, (since this is the only way to extract the KE without a lot of stages). The nozzle exit defines the crossection of the spiral, so if it is too large, the gas cannot stay inside the turbine long enough to do efficient work, and if it is too small, it may be efficient but the total power output will be low. The interaction of the gas with the edges of the disk pack as it enters is a very interesting problem. I originally imagined a sonic shock wave that would slow the entry down and dump a lot of KE back to heat. But I saw that this is not a given. This depends on the disk pack velocity relative to the gas flow, and the inward radial rate of flow. So if you used the very large nozzle, the gas would take a high radial flow rate and might be supersonic against the blades, with all the bad effects. However, with a narrow nozzle and a high RPM on the disk pack, the disk and gas flow may be subsonic relative to each other and there would be no shock waves, except from irregularities in the casing.
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 6:07 AM
            Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] Nozzles

            Patent 5,782,414 gives a best fit curve calculation for supersonic nozzles.
            The nozzle is broken into segments and each segment calculated based on
            parameters such as nozzle diameter, pressure differential, etc.

            I have low resolution gif images for the patents I can email you if you
            want.

            I plan on using multiple nozzles to begin with.  I see the disk edge as a
            major producer of turbulance, causer of back pressure at the nozzle (no more
            sonic flow), and an overall resistance to the desired power coupling.  In
            the future I wanted to work with disk edge design to control flow insertion
            between the disks without using multiple nozzles.

            Using small nozzles means low flow volume with high velocity.  To get both
            you have to use more nozzles.  Thats my intention.

            My plan to make multiple nozzles:  small brass tubing from the hobby store.
            I'll use a dull tubing cutter and roll the convergent section.  Then cut the
            divergent section to the proper length.  I'll solder multiple tubes inside a
            flatened copper tube (flattened oval).

            I have this link to a micro supersonic nozzle test:
            http://www.fmrl.fsu.edu/research/koustubh/koustubh/supersonic.htm

            This link is a 1mm conv/div nozzle with supersonic flow:
            http://www.fmrl.fsu.edu/research/koustubh/koustubh/fig3.jpg

            I hope to have a real test soon.

            Mike Passerotti


            -----Original Message-----
            From: richcoluk [mailto:richcol@...]
            Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:36 PM
            To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Nozzles


            Hi All,
            HELP!!!
            I,ve got as far as the nozzle design for my steam TT and have ground
            to a halt due to lack of available info.
            Questions -
            1)      Does the TT normally have a slot nozzle covering the width of
            the runner bank or individual nozzles. Using 300psig with low
            superheat gives a runner gap of about 0.01" so individual nozzles
            would be mighty small.
            2)      Has anyone got formulas for calculating the parameters of
            convergent (or convergent/divergent) nozzles to give a required
            output velocity from a known feed pressure.

            Any answers or pointers gratefully accepted

            Richard Coleby






            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • richcoluk
            Mike, Would really appreciate the patent images for the nozzles. Like you I have worried about the disc rim problem but have now been convinced that the
            Message 5 of 8 , May 6 3:23 PM
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              Mike,
              Would really appreciate the patent images for the nozzles.
              Like you I have worried about the disc rim problem but have now been
              convinced that the elongated stream from a slot nozzle will get
              almost instantaneously sucked into the separate gaps by the inward
              radial force. Probably a simple rounding of the edges being all that
              is needed to help it on its way without undue turbulence. I would
              imagine feathering of the edges would certainly be a no-no due to the
              abrasion rate from hot gases and other undesirable factors.
              Your description of nozzle production is interesting. If you have
              access to a small lathe I can give you a method of producing very
              accurate miniature nozzles both convergent and divergent, straight or
              curved internal profiles. I have made several sets over the years for
              miniature live-steam injectors without any problem.

              Richard
            • Barry Turner
              Hi Mike Thanks for the patent it will come in very useful. I used GetIPDL to download it, excellent little program puts it in PDF format as well. You might
              Message 6 of 8 , May 6 3:54 PM
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                Hi Mike
                 
                Thanks for the patent it will come in very useful. I used GetIPDL to download it, excellent little program puts it in PDF format as well.
                 
                You might want to look and see what the Phoenix Tesla Builders Club have been up to regarding high velocity nozzles:
                 
                 
                 
                Figure 1 shows a model of convergent/divergent nozzle similar to a design published by NASA Tech BriefsFigure 1 - convergent/divergent nozzle
                (January 2001, pg. 60). Pressurized fluid enters the nozzle from the left at subsonic speed. As the fluid passes the largest diameter of the insert, it accelerates to the speed of sound. Continuing its flow to the right, the fluid expands rapidly, exchanging heat energy for supersonic velocity. The NASA design is easier to build than a DeLaval nozzle since the insert is machined rather than the casing. An added benefit is that the outflowing fluid converges upon itself to the center of the nozzle rather than following the outer casing. 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                Regards
                 
                Barry
                 
                 
                Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 2:07 PM
                Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] Nozzles

                Patent 5,782,414 gives a best fit curve calculation for supersonic nozzles.
                The nozzle is broken into segments and each segment calculated based on
                parameters such as nozzle diameter, pressure differential, etc.

                I have low resolution gif images for the patents I can email you if you
                want.

                I plan on using multiple nozzles to begin with.  I see the disk edge as a
                major producer of turbulance, causer of back pressure at the nozzle (no more
                sonic flow), and an overall resistance to the desired power coupling.  In
                the future I wanted to work with disk edge design to control flow insertion
                between the disks without using multiple nozzles.

                Using small nozzles means low flow volume with high velocity.  To get both
                you have to use more nozzles.  Thats my intention.

                My plan to make multiple nozzles:  small brass tubing from the hobby store.
                I'll use a dull tubing cutter and roll the convergent section.  Then cut the
                divergent section to the proper length.  I'll solder multiple tubes inside a
                flatened copper tube (flattened oval).

                I have this link to a micro supersonic nozzle test:
                http://www.fmrl.fsu.edu/research/koustubh/koustubh/supersonic.htm

                This link is a 1mm conv/div nozzle with supersonic flow:
                http://www.fmrl.fsu.edu/research/koustubh/koustubh/fig3.jpg

                I hope to have a real test soon.

                Mike Passerotti


                -----Original Message-----
                From: richcoluk [mailto:richcol@...]
                Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:36 PM
                To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Nozzles


                Hi All,
                HELP!!!
                I,ve got as far as the nozzle design for my steam TT and have ground
                to a halt due to lack of available info.
                Questions -
                1)      Does the TT normally have a slot nozzle covering the width of
                the runner bank or individual nozzles. Using 300psig with low
                superheat gives a runner gap of about 0.01" so individual nozzles
                would be mighty small.
                2)      Has anyone got formulas for calculating the parameters of
                convergent (or convergent/divergent) nozzles to give a required
                output velocity from a known feed pressure.

                Any answers or pointers gratefully accepted

                Richard Coleby






                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              • Paul Stearns
                One Idea that I had, which I can t think of negatives to except a bit more tool work, is to have the edge runners slightly larger in diameter that tne internal
                Message 7 of 8 , May 6 5:32 PM
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                  One Idea that I had, which I can't think of negatives to except a bit more
                  tool work, is to have the edge runners slightly larger in diameter that tne
                  internal runners. If you really want to get tricky have the portion of the
                  case including the nozzle which is surrounding the internal runners below the
                  periphery of the external runners.

                  This of course goes against KISS theory.

                  Just a thought....

                  Paul

                  richcoluk wrote:

                  > Mike,
                  > Would really appreciate the patent images for the nozzles.
                  > Like you I have worried about the disc rim problem but have now been
                  > convinced that the elongated stream from a slot nozzle will get
                  > almost instantaneously sucked into the separate gaps by the inward
                  > radial force. Probably a simple rounding of the edges being all that
                  > is needed to help it on its way without undue turbulence. I would
                  > imagine feathering of the edges would certainly be a no-no due to the
                  > abrasion rate from hot gases and other undesirable factors.
                  > Your description of nozzle production is interesting. If you have
                  > access to a small lathe I can give you a method of producing very
                  > accurate miniature nozzles both convergent and divergent, straight or
                  > curved internal profiles. I have made several sets over the years for
                  > miniature live-steam injectors without any problem.
                  >
                  > Richard
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • tuckert15
                  All, Excellent article! Anyone tried this sonic style of nozzle yet? The article makes the point that the Tesla turbine is better suited for high pressure
                  Message 8 of 8 , May 12 8:18 PM
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                    All,

                    Excellent article! Anyone tried this sonic style of nozzle yet?

                    The article makes the point that the Tesla turbine is better suited
                    for high pressure sources of gases (e.g. 100 psi and greater) whereas
                    a conventional bladed turbine is best suited for lower pressure, high
                    volume gases like those obtained from a combustion turbine. This
                    suggests that power generators that use steam would be a good
                    application for tesla turbines.

                    Any comments?

                    Cheers,

                    Tom Tucker


                    --- In TeslaTurbine@y..., "Barry Turner" <btba09418@b...> wrote:
                    > Hi Mike
                    >
                    > Thanks for the patent it will come in very useful. I used GetIPDL
                    to download it, excellent little program puts it in PDF format as
                    well.
                    >
                    > You might want to look and see what the Phoenix Tesla Builders Club
                    have been up to regarding high velocity nozzles:
                    >
                    > http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/gmpr/ptbc15.htm
                    >
                    >
                    > Figure 1 shows a model of convergent/divergent nozzle similar to a
                    design published by NASA Tech Briefs
                    > (January 2001, pg. 60). Pressurized fluid enters the nozzle from
                    the left at subsonic speed. As the fluid passes the largest diameter
                    of the insert, it accelerates to the speed of sound. Continuing its
                    flow to the right, the fluid expands rapidly, exchanging heat energy
                    for supersonic velocity. The NASA design is easier to build than a
                    DeLaval nozzle since the insert is machined rather than the casing.
                    An added benefit is that the outflowing fluid converges upon itself
                    to the center of the nozzle rather than following the outer casing.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Regards
                    >
                    > Barry
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Mike Passerotti
                    > To: 'TeslaTurbine@y...'
                    > Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 2:07 PM
                    > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] Nozzles
                    >
                    >
                    > Patent 5,782,414 gives a best fit curve calculation for
                    supersonic nozzles.
                    > The nozzle is broken into segments and each segment calculated
                    based on
                    > parameters such as nozzle diameter, pressure differential, etc.
                    >
                    > I have low resolution gif images for the patents I can email you
                    if you
                    > want.
                    >
                    > I plan on using multiple nozzles to begin with. I see the disk
                    edge as a
                    > major producer of turbulance, causer of back pressure at the
                    nozzle (no more
                    > sonic flow), and an overall resistance to the desired power
                    coupling. In
                    > the future I wanted to work with disk edge design to control flow
                    insertion
                    > between the disks without using multiple nozzles.
                    >
                    > Using small nozzles means low flow volume with high velocity. To
                    get both
                    > you have to use more nozzles. Thats my intention.
                    >
                    > My plan to make multiple nozzles: small brass tubing from the
                    hobby store.
                    > I'll use a dull tubing cutter and roll the convergent section.
                    Then cut the
                    > divergent section to the proper length. I'll solder multiple
                    tubes inside a
                    > flatened copper tube (flattened oval).
                    >
                    > I have this link to a micro supersonic nozzle test:
                    > http://www.fmrl.fsu.edu/research/koustubh/koustubh/supersonic.htm
                    >
                    > This link is a 1mm conv/div nozzle with supersonic flow:
                    > http://www.fmrl.fsu.edu/research/koustubh/koustubh/fig3.jpg
                    >
                    > I hope to have a real test soon.
                    >
                    > Mike Passerotti
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: richcoluk [mailto:richcol@t...]
                    > Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:36 PM
                    > To: TeslaTurbine@y...
                    > Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Nozzles
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi All,
                    > HELP!!!
                    > I,ve got as far as the nozzle design for my steam TT and have
                    ground
                    > to a halt due to lack of available info.
                    > Questions -
                    > 1) Does the TT normally have a slot nozzle covering the
                    width of
                    > the runner bank or individual nozzles. Using 300psig with low
                    > superheat gives a runner gap of about 0.01" so individual nozzles
                    > would be mighty small.
                    > 2) Has anyone got formulas for calculating the parameters of
                    > convergent (or convergent/divergent) nozzles to give a required
                    > output velocity from a known feed pressure.
                    >
                    > Any answers or pointers gratefully accepted
                    >
                    > Richard Coleby
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > ADVERTISEMENT
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    Service.
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