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  • richcoluk
    Really excited to have stumbled across the Tesla Turbine Group as I am sure there will be several of you who can answer some questions which have baulked a
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 27, 2002
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      Really excited to have stumbled across the Tesla Turbine Group as I
      am sure there will be several of you who can answer some questions
      which have baulked a project I have been working on for some time now.
      My interest is in designing & building fifth full-size locomotives.
      Some time ago I started work on a monotube boilered CC design that
      originally was to have a high speed Uniflo engine to power a
      hydraulic drive. I was then introduced to the Tesla Turbine whose
      apparent simplicity over reciprocating engines has managed to
      completely seduce me!
      However, herein lies the problem; try as I might I have so far been
      unable to unearth any torque or steam consumption curves which will
      allow me to determine the boiler design which will be based on the
      Doble principle. I am looking for an output of between 30 – 50HP.
      I was especially interested to read some of the earlier messages from
      members concerning this unit and would refer anyone who is interested
      to the book on Doble steam cars by J.N.Walton. Unhappily it is out of
      print now but contains a wealth of information together with a
      synopsis of Abner Doble's articles written in the "Engineering and
      Boiler House Review" in the late 1930's.
      The fact of the matter is that in my view the coupling of the Turbine
      to this generator would make a really neat, powerful and SIMPLE power
      unit.
      If anyone could point me in the right direction to obtain the
      information I require, I would be eternally grateful.
    • Mike Passerotti
      any torque or steam consumption curves I m sorry to say that the state of the art for TT steam seems to be highly undocumented for that level. I hope
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 27, 2002
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        "any torque or steam consumption curves"

        I'm sorry to say that the state of the art for TT steam seems to be highly
        undocumented for that level. I hope someone in the group can point out
        documentation that I'm unaware.


        My present work is on the CD rom TT. I've got the exhaust holes in the
        runner cut. I haven't decided if I'm going to pin spacers in the disk edges
        as per Tesla's design, or glue spacers. I have decided to keyslot the shaft
        and disks so the two can be replaced separately as necessary.

        I mention this here because I intend to graph KE power out to PE power in,
        and the power out to air consumption. Perhaps I'll even find out if the CD
        will run on steam.

        Has anyone worked with full insertion nozzles? I have dreams of making
        supersonic air nozzles small enough to fit between disks for full insertion.
        To get enough volume through I'll have to use many nozzles.

        Is there a possibility of sonic speeds with steam? I don't remember seeing
        that anywhere.

        Maximum torque transfer from the fluid to disk is reported to be when the
        fluid is traveling 2 times the speed of the disk. Is this correct? What
        happens when the disk is much much slower than the fluid? CD at 10000 rpm
        would be about 1/4 the speed of sound. Does it equate to a bunch of lost
        power, or worse? Should I plan on much slower fluid velocity?

        Mike Passerotti


        -----Original Message-----
        From: richcoluk [mailto:richcol@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 5:47 PM
        To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Information wanted


        Really excited to have stumbled across the Tesla Turbine Group as I
        am sure there will be several of you who can answer some questions
        which have baulked a project I have been working on for some time now.
        My interest is in designing & building fifth full-size locomotives.
        Some time ago I started work on a monotube boilered CC design that
        originally was to have a high speed Uniflo engine to power a
        hydraulic drive. I was then introduced to the Tesla Turbine whose
        apparent simplicity over reciprocating engines has managed to
        completely seduce me!
        However, herein lies the problem; try as I might I have so far been
        unable to unearth any torque or steam consumption curves which will
        allow me to determine the boiler design which will be based on the
        Doble principle. I am looking for an output of between 30 - 50HP.
        I was especially interested to read some of the earlier messages from
        members concerning this unit and would refer anyone who is interested
        to the book on Doble steam cars by J.N.Walton. Unhappily it is out of
        print now but contains a wealth of information together with a
        synopsis of Abner Doble's articles written in the "Engineering and
        Boiler House Review" in the late 1930's.
        The fact of the matter is that in my view the coupling of the Turbine
        to this generator would make a really neat, powerful and SIMPLE power
        unit.
        If anyone could point me in the right direction to obtain the
        information I require, I would be eternally grateful.






        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • the_maniacal_engineer
        I suspect that it is maximum **power** at 1/2 speed. at zero speed, the torque would be max, at speed equal to steam speed the torque would be zero. Chris ...
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 27, 2002
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          I suspect that it is maximum **power** at 1/2 speed. at zero speed,
          the torque would be max, at speed equal to steam speed the torque
          would be zero.

          Chris

          --- In TeslaTurbine@y..., Mike Passerotti <mpasserotti@m...> wrote:
          > "any torque or steam consumption curves"
          >
          > I'm sorry to say that the state of the art for TT steam seems to be
          highly
          > undocumented for that level. I hope someone in the group can point
          out
          > documentation that I'm unaware.

          <snip>

          >
          > Maximum torque transfer from the fluid to disk is reported to be
          when the
          > fluid is traveling 2 times the speed of the disk. Is this correct?
          What
          > happens when the disk is much much slower than the fluid? CD at
          10000 rpm
          > would be about 1/4 the speed of sound. Does it equate to a bunch of
          lost
          > power, or worse? Should I plan on much slower fluid velocity?
          >

          <snip>
        • DeLesley Hutchins
          ... Not zero. As the fluid spirals in towards the center of the disc it loses velocity and imparts its momentum to the disc, thus generating torque. A disc
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 27, 2002
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            > I suspect that it is maximum **power** at 1/2 speed. at zero speed,
            > the torque would be max, at speed equal to steam speed the torque
            > would be zero.

            Not zero. As the fluid spirals in towards the center of the disc it loses
            velocity and imparts its momentum to the disc, thus generating torque. A
            disc with zero torque would also have zero power -- which is hardly
            efficient. :-) Maximum efficiency is attained when the speeds are equal
            because there is minimal turbulence and frictional drag. As fluid velocity
            increases there is more momentum to transfer, but more energy is lost to
            friction and turbulence. At some point the fluid flow will cease being
            laminar, but why that occurs at precisely twice the disc speed is something
            that I do not understand. The standard factor of two may just be a
            convenient round number.

            -DeLesley Hutchins
          • DeLesley Hutchins
            ... Welcome to the world of little-known engine designs. :-) Your best bet would be to find an old junker (non-train) boiler, build a Tesla turbine, and
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 27, 2002
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              > However, herein lies the problem; try as I might I have so far been
              > unable to unearth any torque or steam consumption curves which will
              > allow me to determine the boiler design which will be based on the

              Welcome to the world of little-known engine designs. :-) Your best bet
              would be to find an old junker (non-train) boiler, build a Tesla turbine,
              and measure the curves yourself. Then you can build a real boiler, a second
              turbine to overcome the problems you found with the first, and put it in the
              train. A third iteration will probably be required to get everything right.
              If you want proven plans then go with a piston engine.

              -DeLesley Hutchins
            • McGalliard, Frederick B
              Hi Mike. Sonic steam. Reminds me of the short movie of stage separation on the Saturn 5. The second stage pulls away from the interstage, the H2 O2 rockets
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 28, 2002
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                Hi Mike. Sonic steam. Reminds me of the short movie of stage separation on
                the Saturn 5. The second stage pulls away from the interstage, the H2 O2
                rockets blasting like crazy but totally invisible steam is all that comes
                out, till the interstage slips into the stream and fire flashes all along
                it. Sure, steam can go supersonic. You just need enough pressure and a high
                enough temperature. At a rough guess you will need around 400 PSI. The
                nozzle converts the heat/pressure into velocity so the exit steam is much
                cooler and will condense unless it is superheated. For a TT you may not care
                if it condenses a little, since the droplets will not impact the blades as
                they do in a standard turbine, but you don't want to have too much
                condensation. It would get in the way of the gas flow.

                The 1/2 V maximum is, I think, the point where the turbine produces the most
                power. The most efficiency is much closer to V.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Mike Passerotti [mailto:mpasserotti@...]
                ...
                Is there a possibility of sonic speeds with steam? I don't remember seeing
                that anywhere.
                ...
                Maximum torque transfer from the fluid to disk is reported to be when the
                fluid is traveling 2 times the speed of the disk.
              • the_maniacal_engineer
                for sonic flow Ptot/P = (1+ M^2 *(gama -1)/2)^(gamma/(gamma-1)) gamma is the ratio of Cp/Cv M is the mach number Ptot is total pressure P is free stream
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 28, 2002
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                  for sonic flow

                  Ptot/P = (1+ M^2 *(gama -1)/2)^(gamma/(gamma-1))

                  gamma is the ratio of Cp/Cv
                  M is the mach number
                  Ptot is total pressure
                  P is free stream pressure

                  you can find the Cp and Cv by looking up the properties in steam
                  tables Cp = dh/dT and Cv = d(h-Pv)/dt. There is an excel spreadsheet
                  add in that will give the values you need. Its called either
                  "water.xla" or "wasser.xla"

                  Chris


                  --- In TeslaTurbine@y..., "McGalliard, Frederick B"
                  <frederick.b.mcgalliard@B...> wrote:
                  > Hi Mike. Sonic steam. Reminds me of the short movie of stage
                  separation on
                  > the Saturn 5. The second stage pulls away from the interstage, the
                  H2 O2
                  > rockets blasting like crazy but totally invisible steam is all that
                  comes
                  > out, till the interstage slips into the stream and fire flashes all
                  along
                  > it. Sure, steam can go supersonic. You just need enough pressure and
                  a high
                  > enough temperature. At a rough guess you will need around 400 PSI.
                  The
                  > nozzle converts the heat/pressure into velocity so the exit steam is
                  much
                  > cooler and will condense unless it is superheated. For a TT you may
                  not care
                  > if it condenses a little, since the droplets will not impact the
                  blades as
                  > they do in a standard turbine, but you don't want to have too much
                  > condensation. It would get in the way of the gas flow.
                  >
                  > The 1/2 V maximum is, I think, the point where the turbine produces
                  the most
                  > power. The most efficiency is much closer to V.
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Mike Passerotti [mailto:mpasserotti@m...]
                  > ...
                  > Is there a possibility of sonic speeds with steam? I don't remember
                  seeing
                  > that anywhere.
                  > ...
                  > Maximum torque transfer from the fluid to disk is reported to be
                  when the
                  > fluid is traveling 2 times the speed of the disk.
                • Mike Passerotti
                  Thanks everyone. Have a happy Easter. Mike Passerotti
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 29, 2002
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                    Thanks everyone. Have a happy Easter.

                    Mike Passerotti
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