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RE: [TeslaTurbine] Re: Low Quality Steam

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  • McGalliard, Frederick B
    I can see this is going nowhere as most ppl seem to lack an understanding of Newtonian physics .so ill keep it simple if you are on a merry go round and 3 of
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 3, 2005
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        I can see this is going nowhere as most ppl seem to lack an understanding of Newtonian physics .so ill keep it simple if you are on a merry go round and 3 of your big friends begin to spin it faster and faster tell me at what magic RPM will you begin to slide to the center?  
       
      Physics is not as simple as all that. This is a motor or a pump. As a motor, the gas has to drag the blades. But as it drags them it slows down. In a spinning tornado, this would result in the gas "falling" toward the center, where the disk is spinning at a lower velocity and the drag forces will continue to take energy from the gas stream. 
    • William Carr
      ... Maybe the Newtonian physics is the problem here. This is not Newtonian . And we re not dealing with solids. When the gas enters, it s moving faster
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 3, 2005
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        On Nov 3, 2005, at 10:17 AM, TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com wrote:

        > I can see this is going nowhere as most ppl seem to lack an
        > understanding of
        > Newtonian physics .so ill keep it simple if you are on a merry go
        > round and
        > 3 of your big friends begin to spin it faster and faster tell me
        > at what
        > magic RPM will you begin to slide to the center? any fluid (air is
        > a fluid ) that
        > comes in contact with the disks is flung to the outside if you
        > have the
        > thing sealed off so that the center is the only escape for the
        > steam then, yes it
        > will eventually come out but not at its most efficient.


        Maybe the "Newtonian" physics is the problem here.

        This is not "Newtonian". And we're not dealing with solids.


        When the gas enters, it's moving faster than the runners to begin with.

        Drag between runners slows the gas, imparting energy to the disks.


        The disks aren't under power themselves, so they aren't going to
        fling the gas off or accellerate it.

        The more load the disks are under, the more differential between the
        input gas and the runner speed.

        ( I repeat. The runners will never reach the speed of the gas, so
        they won't accelerate the gas ).


        This means that the gas at the rim, under no load, is fast-moving
        and under greater pressure than gas between the runners.




        This high pressure zone rejects the slow moving, low pressure gas.

        Since Tesla DESIGNED the turbine with the exit in the hub, the hub is
        lower pressure and the exhaust moves in that direction.

        Ever hear of something called a Hirsch Vortex?

        It's instructive. Apparently, there are "sorting" effects going on
        in vortixes.

        The low energy molecules sort themselves out individually as they
        lose energy, while the high energy molecules go on a different path.

        This separation takes a couple of revolutions, but it's inevitable.

        In the Hirsch Vortex, all you have to do is apply compressed air.

        You end up with a whistling noise, and a stream of cooled air coming
        out one end with a stream of warmer air coming out the other.

        Isaac Newton's eyes would have bugged out ! Such "sorting" isn't
        anything he would have imagined.




        The TT isn't designed to separate these gas streams, and if you
        modified one you'd lose lots of efficiency.

        Hirsch Vortixes are notoriously inefficient.




        Now, if a person wanted to design their OWN turbine that's fine.


        But Tesla Turbines have two ports. One at the rim, the other at the
        hub. Period.
      • Reese
        ... I find the whole invocation of Newton and Newtonian physics disingenuous. On another list, a character who was into Chaos Theory would use how Newtonian
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 3, 2005
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          At 12:19 03-11-05 -0500, William Carr wrote:
          >On Nov 3, 2005, at 10:17 AM, TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com wrote:
          >
          >> I can see this is going nowhere as most ppl seem to lack an
          >> understanding of Newtonian physics...

          >Maybe the "Newtonian" physics is the problem here.
          >This is not "Newtonian". And we're not dealing with solids.

          I find the whole invocation of Newton and Newtonian physics
          disingenuous. On another list, a character who was into Chaos
          Theory would use "how Newtonian" as a put-down and dismissal.

          Bah, let them eat cake, all they can eat after their heads are off.

          At least, with those two references, you know where I'm coming from
          and what I mean.

          Reese
        • Shadow of the Redwood
          Well said, informative and entertaining to read. :) Thanks for the post. William Carr wrote: ... Maybe the Newtonian physics is the
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 3, 2005
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            Well said, informative and entertaining to read. :)
             
            Thanks for the post.

            William Carr <Jkirk3279@...> wrote:

            On Nov 3, 2005, at 10:17 AM, TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com wrote:

            > I can see this is going nowhere as most ppl seem  to lack an 
            > understanding of
            > Newtonian physics .so ill keep it simple if you are  on a merry go 
            > round and
            > 3 of your big friends begin to spin it faster and faster  tell me 
            > at what
            > magic RPM will you begin to slide to the center? any fluid (air  is 
            > a fluid ) that
            > comes in contact with the disks is flung to the outside if you  
            > have the
            > thing sealed off so that the center is the only escape for the 
            > steam  then, yes it
            > will eventually come out but not at its most efficient.


            Maybe the "Newtonian" physics is the problem here.

            This is not "Newtonian".     And we're not dealing with solids.


            When the gas enters, it's moving faster than the runners to begin with.

            Drag between runners slows the gas, imparting energy to the disks.


            The disks aren't under power themselves, so they aren't going to 
            fling the gas off or accellerate it.

            The more load the disks are under, the more differential between the 
            input gas and the runner speed.

            ( I repeat.   The runners will never reach the speed of the gas, so 
            they won't accelerate the gas ).


            This means that the gas at the rim, under no load,  is fast-moving 
            and under greater pressure than gas between the runners.




            This high pressure zone rejects the slow moving, low pressure gas.

            Since Tesla DESIGNED the turbine with the exit in the hub, the hub is 
            lower pressure and the exhaust moves in that direction.

            Ever hear of something called a Hirsch Vortex?

            It's instructive.   Apparently, there are "sorting" effects going on 
            in vortixes.

            The low energy molecules sort themselves out individually as they 
            lose energy, while the high energy molecules  go on a different path.

            This separation takes a couple of revolutions, but it's inevitable.

            In the Hirsch Vortex, all you have to do is apply compressed air.

            You end up with a whistling noise, and a stream of cooled air coming 
            out one end with a stream of warmer air coming out the other.

            Isaac Newton's eyes would have bugged out !   Such "sorting" isn't 
            anything he would have imagined.




            The TT isn't designed to separate these gas streams, and if you 
            modified one you'd lose lots of efficiency.

            Hirsch Vortixes are notoriously inefficient.




            Now, if a person wanted to design their OWN turbine that's fine.


            But Tesla Turbines have two ports.  One at the rim, the other at the 
            hub.  Period.




















          • Chris Vintinner
            mtolb25356@aol.com wrote:I can see this is going nowhere as most ppl seem to lack an understanding of Newtonian physics .so ill keep it simple if you are on a
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 3, 2005
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              mtolb25356@... wrote:
              I can see this is going nowhere as most ppl seem to lack an understanding of Newtonian physics .so ill keep it simple if you are on a merry go round and 3 of your big friends begin to spin it faster and faster tell me at what magic RPM will you begin to slide to the center? any fluid (air is a fluid ) that comes in contact with the disks is flung to the outside if you have the thing sealed off so that the center is the only escape for the steam then, yes it will eventually come out but not at its most efficient.


              This is a better example of how a tesla pump works, where the TT aplies energy to the particles, however its not the same as TT generator, where the fluid is giving its energy to the TT.


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            • mtolb25356@aol.com
              In a message dated 11/3/2005 12:21:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Jkirk3279@beanstalk.net writes: But Tesla Turbines have two ports. One at the rim, the
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 3, 2005
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                In a message dated 11/3/2005 12:21:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Jkirk3279@... writes:
                But Tesla Turbines have two ports.  One at the rim, the other at the 
                hub.  Period.

                sorry not true the GE turbine set had no center exahst portim right your wrong i know this because a have made the darn things both ways and seen with my own eyes that steam NEVER comes out of the ceter. so as long as you stick to what your saying without making an actual turbine i have nothing more to say to you.
              • McGalliard, Frederick B
                ________________________________ From: mtolb25356@aol.com [mailto:mtolb25356@aol.com] ... sorry not true the GE turbine set had no center exahst What GE
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 3, 2005
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                  From: mtolb25356@... [mailto:mtolb25356@...] 
                   ... 
                  sorry not true the GE turbine set had no center exahst  
                   
                  What GE turbine?  
                • mtolb25356@aol.com
                  in 1913 GE hired him to make TT for the power plant the job was never finnished tesla pissed them off
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 3, 2005
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                    in 1913 GE hired him to make TT for the power plant the job was never finnished tesla pissed them off
                  • Drew Marinich
                    Still waiting on pictures, I find it kind of hard to believe you have the money to build a turbine, and not enough to go to walmart and buy a five dollar
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 3, 2005
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                      Still waiting on pictures, I find it kind of hard to believe you have the money to build a turbine, and not enough to go to walmart and buy a five dollar disposable camera. I'm really not trying to be a dickhead!  But if your going to accuse everyone in this group of being a moron you better be able to back it up
                       
                      Post some pictures, hell I'll send you five bucks for the camera

                      mtolb25356@... wrote:
                      in 1913 GE hired him to make TT for the power plant the job was never finnished tesla pissed them off


                       


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                    • William Carr
                      ... THANKS ! ***************** http://www.frank.germano.com/teslaturbine2.htm This describes Tesla s development work on the TT. ... Not GE. What today is
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 4, 2005
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                        On Nov 4, 2005, at 10:45 AM, TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com wrote:

                        > so as long as you stick to
                        > what your saying without making an actual turbine i have nothing
                        > more to say
                        > to you.

                        THANKS !


                        *****************

                        http://www.frank.germano.com/teslaturbine2.htm

                        This describes Tesla's development work on the TT.

                        > "Tesla designed and built a larger, double unit, which he planned
                        > to test with steam in the Waterside Station, the main powerhouse of
                        > the New York Edison Company."

                        Not GE. What today is called Con-Ed.


                        > "The Tesla turbine, however, used as a single-stage engine,
                        > functioning as a pygmy power producer, in the form in which it was
                        > actually tested, anticipated by more than twenty five years a type
                        > of turbine which has been installed in recent years in the
                        > Waterside Station. This is a very small engine, with blades on its
                        > rotor, known as a ''topping turbine,'' which is inserted in the
                        > steam line between the boilers and the ordinary turbines. Steam of
                        > increased pressure is supplied, and the topping turbine skims this
                        > ``cream'' from the steam and exhausts steam that runs the other
                        > turbines in their normal way. The General Electric Company was
                        > developing the Curtis turbine at that time, and the Westinghouse
                        > Electric and Manufacturing Company was developing the Parsons
                        > turbine; and neither company showed the slightest interest in
                        > Tesla's demonstration.:

                        Not GE, again.

                        > "Further development of his turbine on a larger scale would have
                        > required a large amount of money--and Tesla did not possess even a
                        > small amount. Finally he succeeded in interesting the Allis
                        > Chalmers Manufacturing Company of Milwaukee, builders of
                        > reciprocating engines and turbines, and other heavy machinery. In
                        > typical Tesla fashion, though, he manifested in his negotiations
                        > such a lack of diplomacy and insight into human nature that he
                        > would have been better of if he had completely failed to make any
                        > arrangements for exploiting the turbine."

                        Allis Chalmers !

                        ( I tell you, Tesla definitely needed a business manager ... )


                        A little research will show Tesla's diagrams online.

                        Yes, he intended to use multi-stage turbines. Because there's a
                        limit on how much force any given disk can take.

                        But if you can find ANY diagram that shows a genuine TT with no hub
                        exhaust, I'd be happy to study it.



                        The reason I KNOW the hub exhaust was part of the original spec, is
                        that I studied the subject.

                        And one thing in particular sticks in my mind: ALL Tesla's turbine
                        designs were reversible.

                        Maybe a steam turbine would have a different shape injection nozzle,
                        or different runner spacing, but any turbine could work as a pump
                        without any alteration.

                        In a Tesla pump, water, for example, enters at the hub port and gets
                        spun up. In this case, the flip side of the turbine, the working
                        fluid gets accelerated and flung outward, something that does NOT
                        happen with the turbine.

                        The pressure at the rim is the same, though, and the working fluid
                        blows out the rim port at pressure.
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