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Re: [TheTeslaTurbineList] Re: drive fluid,bearings

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  • Bernard Clay
    ... That may yet be the biggest hurdle. But I can see the attraction of using ammonia as driving fluid, here especially. Ammonia also has an affinity for
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 12, 1999
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      >From: S2dee@...
      >Reply-To: TheTeslaTurbineList@onelist.com
      >To: TheTeslaTurbineList@onelist.com
      >Subject: Re: [TheTeslaTurbineList] Re: [TeslaTurbine] drive fluid,bearings
      >Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 03:30:32 EST
      >
      >In a message dated 11/11/1999 12:27:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,
      >bernclay@... writes:
      >
      > > Just read an article in Homepower magazine (http://www.homepower.com)
      >that
      > > details a scheme to build an intermittent absorption solar icemaker.
      > > Basically, it's 10 lbs.of calcium chloride and 15 lbs. of ammonia
      >trapped
      >in
      > >
      > > a steel pipe at the focus of a 7 x 20 ft. parabolic trough collector.
      >Heat
      > > drives gaseous ammonia through condenser coils and drips into a storage
      > > tank. When enough liquefied ammonia collects, the trough is covered
      >from
      > > the sun. The tank makes ice when ammonia is reabsorbed by calcium
      >chloride
      > > back into the cooled pipe.
      > >
      > > Anyway, it's mentioned that ammonia boils out of the pipe as a hot gas
      >"at
      > > about 200 psi pressure." Perhaps, instead of a condenser coil, a
      > > well-housed Tesla turbine can be disposed to take advantage of this
      >power?
      >
      > > The article advises using non-galvanized steel and stainless steel as
      >these
      > > are not corroded by ammonia.
      >Very interesting. The corrosion issue may be the undoing in using it in a
      >TT.
      >Also the scale required of this may be quite large due to the volume needed
      >to keep up with the demands of the turbine. Anthony
      >

      That may yet be the biggest hurdle. But I can see the attraction of using
      ammonia as driving fluid, here especially. Ammonia also has an affinity for
      water. Spray the spent ammonia exiting from the turbine with water and a
      sudden vacuum can develop at the exhaust. This is caused by the rapid
      absorption of the ammonia gas by water. A constant vacuum at the exhaust
      can only mean substantial gain in usable energy from the jetting gas in the
      chamber as it engages the turbine rotor with greater velocity. "Implosion
      engines" and "vacuum engines" have been dreamed up based on this principle.
      Does calcium chloride react with similar speed with ammonia? That I don't
      know. Maybe somebody else here does.


      Bern
    • Paul Eitson
      In reply to the below comments. My readings indicate the inside of Tesla turbines are generally polished due to the cleaning action of any abrasives in the
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 13, 1999
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        In reply to the below comments. My readings indicate the inside of Tesla
        turbines are generally polished due to the cleaning action of any
        abrasives in the working fluid. This would "in my opinion" help
        eliminate scale build up. Check out the "new" ammonia heat pump in
        popular science. Ammonia was used as a refrigerant in the early 1900's.
        I think the new heap pump uses both water and calcium carbonate in this
        cycle. A closed loop system could be constructed using solar heat as the
        heat source and a cool water condensation tank.
        Paul.
        > >
        > > > Just read an article in Homepower magazine (http://www.homepower.com)
        > >that
        > > > details a scheme to build an intermittent absorption solar icemaker.
        > > > Basically, it's 10 lbs.of calcium chloride and 15 lbs. of ammonia
        > >trapped
        > >in
        > > >
        > > > a steel pipe at the focus of a 7 x 20 ft. parabolic trough collector.
        > >Heat
        > > > drives gaseous ammonia through condenser coils and drips into a storage
        > > > tank. When enough liquefied ammonia collects, the trough is covered
        > >from
        > > > the sun. The tank makes ice when ammonia is reabsorbed by calcium
        > >chloride
        > > > back into the cooled pipe.
        > > >
        > > > Anyway, it's mentioned that ammonia boils out of the pipe as a hot gas
        > >"at
        > > > about 200 psi pressure." Perhaps, instead of a condenser coil, a
        > > > well-housed Tesla turbine can be disposed to take advantage of this
        > >power?
        > >
        > > > The article advises using non-galvanized steel and stainless steel as
        > >these
        > > > are not corroded by ammonia.
        > >Very interesting. The corrosion issue may be the undoing in using it in a
        > >TT.
        > >Also the scale required of this may be quite large due to the volume needed
        > >to keep up with the demands of the turbine. Anthony
        > >
        >
        > That may yet be the biggest hurdle. But I can see the attraction of using
        > ammonia as driving fluid, here especially. Ammonia also has an affinity for
        > water. Spray the spent ammonia exiting from the turbine with water and a
        > sudden vacuum can develop at the exhaust. This is caused by the rapid
        > absorption of the ammonia gas by water. A constant vacuum at the exhaust
        > can only mean substantial gain in usable energy from the jetting gas in the
        > chamber as it engages the turbine rotor with greater velocity. "Implosion
        > engines" and "vacuum engines" have been dreamed up based on this principle.
        > Does calcium chloride react with similar speed with ammonia? That I don't
        > know. Maybe somebody else here does.
        >
        > Bern
        >
        >
      • Bernard Clay
        ... Paul, A closed loop of the type you suggest should be pretty simple and straightforward, but I m sure you d also want to benefit from the ability of a
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 14, 1999
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          >From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
          >Reply-To: TeslaTurbine@onelist.com
          >To: TeslaTurbine@onelist.com
          >Subject: Re: [TheTeslaTurbineList] Re: [TeslaTurbine] drive fluid,bearings
          >Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 17:40:24 -0600
          >
          >In reply to the below comments. My readings indicate the inside of Tesla
          >turbines are generally polished due to the cleaning action of any
          >abrasives in the working fluid. This would "in my opinion" help
          >eliminate scale build up. Check out the "new" ammonia heat pump in
          >popular science. Ammonia was used as a refrigerant in the early 1900's.
          >I think the new heap pump uses both water and calcium carbonate in this
          >cycle. A closed loop system could be constructed using solar heat as the
          >heat source and a cool water condensation tank.
          >Paul.
          > > >
          > > > > Just read an article in Homepower magazine
          >(http://www.homepower.com)
          > > >that
          > > > > details a scheme to build an intermittent absorption solar
          >icemaker.
          > > > > Basically, it's 10 lbs.of calcium chloride and 15 lbs. of ammonia
          > > >trapped
          > > >in
          > > > >
          > > > > a steel pipe at the focus of a 7 x 20 ft. parabolic trough
          >collector.
          > > >Heat
          > > > > drives gaseous ammonia through condenser coils and drips into a
          >storage
          > > > > tank. When enough liquefied ammonia collects, the trough is
          >covered
          > > >from
          > > > > the sun. The tank makes ice when ammonia is reabsorbed by calcium
          > > >chloride
          > > > > back into the cooled pipe.
          > > > >
          > > > > Anyway, it's mentioned that ammonia boils out of the pipe as a hot
          >gas
          > > >"at
          > > > > about 200 psi pressure." Perhaps, instead of a condenser coil, a
          > > > > well-housed Tesla turbine can be disposed to take advantage of this
          > > >power?
          > > >
          > > > > The article advises using non-galvanized steel and stainless steel
          >as
          > > >these
          > > > > are not corroded by ammonia.
          > > >Very interesting. The corrosion issue may be the undoing in using it in
          >a
          > > >TT.
          > > >Also the scale required of this may be quite large due to the volume
          >needed
          > > >to keep up with the demands of the turbine. Anthony
          > > >
          > >
          > > That may yet be the biggest hurdle. But I can see the attraction of
          >using
          > > ammonia as driving fluid, here especially. Ammonia also has an affinity
          >for
          > > water. Spray the spent ammonia exiting from the turbine with water and
          >a
          > > sudden vacuum can develop at the exhaust. This is caused by the rapid
          > > absorption of the ammonia gas by water. A constant vacuum at the
          >exhaust
          > > can only mean substantial gain in usable energy from the jetting gas in
          >the
          > > chamber as it engages the turbine rotor with greater velocity.
          >"Implosion
          > > engines" and "vacuum engines" have been dreamed up based on this
          >principle.
          > > Does calcium chloride react with similar speed with ammonia? That I
          >don't
          > > know. Maybe somebody else here does.
          > >
          > > Bern
          > >
          > >

          Paul,

          A closed loop of the type you suggest should be pretty simple and
          straightforward, but I'm sure you'd also want to benefit from the ability of
          a large moving water surface to rapidly absorb ammonia gas and create a
          vacuum at the turbine outlets, which as you never tire of saying would
          appreciably raise working fluid velocity. I sense that your goal in
          contemplating ammonia systems is to "pull" as well as "push" the drivng
          fluid through the turbine. Do you have a way of implementing this step
          without detracting from the simplicity of the whole setup? Barring
          corrosion problems in the bearings, it looks attractive so far. By the way,
          do you see any bearing problems at all?
        • Paul Eitson
          ... You are correct in your assertions. It is my opinion Tesla s later design featuring two turbines was to produce a vacuum at the outlet of the drive
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 15, 1999
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            > Paul,
            >
            > A closed loop of the type you suggest should be pretty simple and
            > straightforward, but I'm sure you'd also want to benefit from the ability of
            > a large moving water surface to rapidly absorb ammonia gas and create a
            > vacuum at the turbine outlets, which as you never tire of saying would
            > appreciably raise working fluid velocity. I sense that your goal in
            > contemplating ammonia systems is to "pull" as well as "push" the drivng
            > fluid through the turbine. Do you have a way of implementing this step
            > without detracting from the simplicity of the whole setup? Barring
            > corrosion problems in the bearings, it looks attractive so far. By the way,
            > do you see any bearing problems at all?
            >

            You are correct in your assertions. It is my opinion Tesla's later
            design featuring two turbines was to produce a vacuum at the outlet of
            the drive turbine. More specifically to produce a vacuum at the end of
            the condenser. This has the added benefit of removing air (due to leaks)
            from the system. In an ammonia system this may not be possible, unless
            the ammonia is completely condensed.
            Piping ammonia vapor into a water bath as you suggest should accomplish
            that. The primary source of vacuum in my system is due to condensation
            of steam. I hope to condense the water as much as possible as it exits
            the drive turbine and reclaim the LHV to preheat water for the boiler.
            From this stage the water steam mix will be removed by a Tesla fluid
            propulsion unit. It will then enter a condenser where the remaining heat
            will be extracted. A vacuum will be attached to remove air from the condenser.
            The discussions for using ammonia are for a later time period
            although it might be possible to adapt my system for the procedure. I do
            worry about the corrosive effects of ammonia as I am using some iron
            pipe in the system.
            Concerning bearings, I am going to mount them about 8 inches from the
            containment housing. There will probably be about 3 pulleys between the
            containment and the bearings. I am considering the bearings and mounts,
            shaft, and rotor section to be one unit. The containment housing I
            consider to be a separate unit, in no way does it have any contact with
            the other unit. In this manner I hope to be able to isolate all
            vibration to the shaft and rotor section. The containment housing is
            bolted to a steel plate. (Same steel plate as the bearing mounts, but I
            hope to put some rubber feet under the conatainment housing)
            Off the turbine subject, but related. Electrolysis is a nearly 98%
            efficient storage method. I hope to produce some excess electricity and
            store it in the form of H2 . (In very small amounts)
            Also I am investigating the possibility of constructing some Edison
            batteries. (Tesla probably invented them also) I hope some on the list
            are familiar with these and their construction as I can only find scant
            reference to them. In some respects they are similar to iron core
            electrolytic capacitors.(But different)
            Paul


            >
          • Bernard Clay
            ... Not just an inert water bath. But cold or room temperature water sprayed actively as droplets or mist directly onto the exiting ammonia gas, rapidly
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 18, 1999
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              >From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
              >Reply-To: TeslaTurbine@onelist.com
              >To: TeslaTurbine@onelist.com
              >Subject: Re: [TheTeslaTurbineList] Re: [TeslaTurbine] drive fluid,bearings
              >Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:52:05 -0600
              >
              >
              >

              >Piping ammonia vapor into a water bath as you suggest should accomplish
              >that. The primary source of vacuum in my system is due to condensation
              >of steam.

              Not just an inert water bath. But cold or room temperature water sprayed
              actively as droplets or mist directly onto the exiting ammonia gas, rapidly
              collapsing the volume as it comes out the outlets. (Hot water has less
              absorbent capacity.) The faster the rate of absorption, the harder the
              vacuum will be at exhaust. That's the idea, at least.

              > The discussions for using ammonia are for a later time period
              >although it might be possible to adapt my system for the procedure. I do
              >worry about the corrosive effects of ammonia as I am using some iron
              >pipe in the system.

              If you're using black iron pipe, there shouldn't be a problem.

              > Concerning bearings, I am going to mount them about 8 inches from the
              >containment housing. There will probably be about 3 pulleys between the
              >containment and the bearings. I am considering the bearings and mounts,

              Afraid you lost me. Why 3 pulleys between housing and bearings?

              >Also I am investigating the possibility of constructing some Edison
              >batteries. (Tesla probably invented them also) I hope some on the list
              >are familiar with these and their construction as I can only find scant
              >reference to them. In some respects they are similar to iron core
              >electrolytic capacitors.(But different)
              >Paul
              >

              Not sure if we have the same thing in mind. Edison patented a few battery
              types, which would now be conventional. No great shakes. But there is one
              that, to me at least, is still a bit out of the ordinary. He called them
              "chalk batteries". Quoting from an old Edison biography, a chalk battery
              "consists in a series of chalk cylinders mounted on a shaft revolved by
              hand. Resting against each of these cylinders is a palladium-faced spring,
              and similar springs make contact with the shaft between each cylinder. By
              connecting all these springs in circuit with a galvanometer and revolving
              the shaft rapidly, a notable deflection is obtained of the galvanometer
              needle, indicating the production of electrical energy." No word on actual
              output t or whether it was usable. Edison invented them in the course of
              studying what he liked to call the electromotograph effect. He had observed
              that the friction of a rubbing electrode passing over a moist chalk surface
              was varied by the current flowing through the circuit. He attached a mica
              diaphragm to the abutting electrode and this became the basis for his
              "loud-speaking telephone". Today, this same phenomenon goes under the
              moniker of the Johnsen-Rahbek effect after the Danes who observed that when
              400 volts was applied between plane and polished plates of lithographic
              stone and metal, a force of 50 grams per sq. cm. developed between these
              plates. The force disappeared when voltage was removed. Minerals including
              agate, limestone, marble, slate and organic materials such as ivory, horn,
              bone and cellophane exhibit the adhesive force especially when moist. The
              magnitude of the force also varies with electrical conductivity of the
              material, degree of surface polish, and direction of current flow. When the
              semiconductor was negative with respect to the metal, maximum force was
              drawn. In applications, the semiconductor is usually a rotating drum in
              circuit with a band of metal tightly wrapped around it. Outside of
              electrostatic clutches, I've never seen it proposed for use on anything
              else. A contact-charge type device for generating electricity was
              suggested. Don't know if a practical machine was ever made or how large an
              output was expected or even possible. Look up "contact-charging" to
              understand what takes place at the subatomic level. Probably related: try
              US Pat. No. 4504757. Spratt's contact-charge motor and generator may have
              something to say about Edison's old chalk batteries.


              BC
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