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Re: [TeslaTurbine] Tesla Turbine as a Compressor?

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  • Jim Dooley
    Bill, I think it must have been considered at one time or other for a replacement for a centrifugal chiller, using whatever is the replacement refrigerant for
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 15, 2004
      Bill,
       
      I think it must have been considered at one time or other for a replacement for a centrifugal chiller, using whatever is the replacement refrigerant for Freon 11.  The concern that i would have is that for it to work effectively and cause enough compression to cause the refrigerant to condense after removal of the heat of compression, it woul dhave to operate at veryhigh RPMs.  I don't think the average 3450 RPM elcecric motor drive is going to cut it.  It would either have to be overdriven by a gearing mechanism, or the drive motor would have to be supplied with electricity at a much higher frequency than 60 hz.
       
      Jim Dooley
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 1:17 PM
      Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Tesla Turbine as a Compressor?

      First post. BTW Spammers the email address is just for you. I read my
      mail here!!

      A little background. I'm a more or less self taught machinist with a
      pretty complete home machine shop and a CNC plasmacutter. Electrician
      at first, but worked past 30 years or so in commercial refrigeration
      field. Has any work been done in using the TT as a compressor for
      refrigeration systems?  This would need to compress a cool vapor into
      a high pressure and temperature, max 200 degrees F gas. If someone would
      point me to some practical links or books, would really help. Bill G.


    • wmgeorge2002
      Jim most centrifugals (not all) use a gearbox to run the impeller at 20,000 to 30,000 rpm. My thought was a TT could be used as a low cost compressor. I think
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 16, 2004
        Jim most centrifugals (not all) use a gearbox to run the impeller at
        20,000 to 30,000 rpm. My thought was a TT could be used as a low cost
        compressor. I think some people have used as a methane compressor?
        B.G.


        -- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Dooley" <LSUman@m...> wrote:
        > Bill,
        >
        > I think it must have been considered at one time or other for a
        replacement for a centrifugal chiller, using whatever is the
        replacement refrigerant for Freon 11. The concern that i would have
        is that for it to work effectively and cause enough compression to
        cause the refrigerant to condense after removal of the heat of
        compression, it woul dhave to operate at veryhigh RPMs. I don't
        think the average 3450 RPM elcecric motor drive is going to cut it.
        It would either have to be overdriven by a gearing mechanism, or the
        drive motor would have to be supplied with electricity at a much
        higher frequency than 60 hz.
        >
        > Jim Dooley
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: wmgeorge2002
        > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 1:17 PM
        > Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Tesla Turbine as a Compressor?
        >
        >
        > First post. BTW Spammers the email address is just for you. I
        read my
        > mail here!!
        >
        > A little background. I'm a more or less self taught machinist
        with a
        > pretty complete home machine shop and a CNC plasmacutter.
        Electrician
        > at first, but worked past 30 years or so in commercial
        refrigeration
        > field. Has any work been done in using the TT as a compressor for
        > refrigeration systems? This would need to compress a cool vapor
        into
        > a high pressure and temperature, max 200 degrees F gas. If
        someone would
        > point me to some practical links or books, would really help.
        Bill G.
        >
        >
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      • Jim Dooley
        Bill, At those RPMs, I would think that a Tesla compressor would probably work reasonably well. It remains to be seen exactly how well in a single stage. It
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 16, 2004

          Bill,

           

          At those RPMs, I would think that a Tesla compressor would probably work reasonably well.  It remains to be seen exactly how well in a single stage.  It may take stage compounding to accomplish sufficient compression for a refrigeration system using the common refrigerants in use today, such as R134a, R-22 and replacements such as Puron.

           

          Jim

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: wmgeorge2002 [mailto:machineshop@...]
          Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 10:46 AM
          To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Re: Tesla Turbine as a Compressor?

           

          Jim most centrifugals (not all) use a gearbox to run the impeller at
          20,000 to 30,000 rpm. My thought was a TT could be used as a low cost
          compressor. I think some people have used as a methane compressor?
          B.G.


          -- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Dooley" <LSUman@m...> wrote:

          > Bill,
          >
          > I think it must have been considered at one time or other for a
          replacement for a centrifugal chiller, using whatever is the
          replacement refrigerant for Freon 11.  The concern that i would have
          is that for it to work effectively and cause enough compression to
          cause the refrigerant to condense after removal of the heat of
          compression, it woul dhave to operate at veryhigh RPMs.  I don't
          think the average 3450 RPM elcecric motor drive is going to cut it. 
          It would either have to be overdriven by a gearing mechanism, or the
          drive motor would have to be supplied with electricity at a much
          higher frequency than 60 hz.
          >
          > Jim Dooley
          >   ----- Original Message -----
          >   From: wmgeorge2002
          >   To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
          >   Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 1:17 PM
          >   Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Tesla Turbine as a Compressor?
          >
          >
          >   First post. BTW Spammers the email address is just for
          you. I
          read my
          >   mail here!!
          >
          >   A little background. I'm a more or less self taught
          machinist
          with a
          >   pretty complete home machine shop and a CNC plasmacutter.
          Electrician
          >   at first, but worked past 30 years or so in commercial
          refrigeration
          >   field. Has any work been done in using the TT as a
          compressor for
          >   refrigeration systems?  This would need to compress a
          cool vapor
          into
          >   a high pressure and temperature, max 200 degrees F gas. If

          someone would
          >   point me to some practical links or books, would really
          help.
          Bill G.
          >
          >
          >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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          ADVERTISEMENT
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          Service.



        • McGalliard, Frederick B
          ... From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@msis.net] ... At those RPMs, I would think that a Tesla compressor would probably work reasonably well. It remains to be
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 16, 2004
            Message
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@...] 
             ...
             At those RPMs, I would think that a Tesla compressor would probably work reasonably well.  It remains to be seen exactly how well in a single stage.  It may take stage compounding to accomplish sufficient compression for a refrigeration system using the common refrigerants in use today, such as R134a, R-22 and replacements such as Puron.

             

            Jim. I would recommend using a two turbine system. A compressor stage, running a power turbine, with the power fed back to the compressor through shaft and possibly gears. The compressed and heated gas runs through a heat exchanger to outside air, then when it works on the power turbine it cools off. The working gas can be air. This kind of heat engine is a bit more complex than a simple refrigerator, but it can be more efficient. And for a home built, no need to charge it with some expensive gas.

          • Jim Dooley
            MessageFred, I like the way you think, especially the part about no refrigerant. Although this would be ok for a direct A/C refrigeration/blower system, it
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 16, 2004
              Message
              Fred,
               
              I like the way you think, especially the part about no refrigerant.  Although this would be ok for a direct A/C refrigeration/blower system, it would not be likely to work for other types of refrigeration where a high velocity stream of cold air is not desired, such as a food freezer.  I would think such a system would cause lots of "freezer burn" to the food.  Also, you'd have to find some way of removing condensate from the air stream when the output temperature falls below the dew point of the compressed air in the system.  However, I think this concept warrants investigation.  Does anyone on this list or the regular turbine list know of the results of Dr. Tom Edwards of Florida, who did some work with this concept in the early to mid 1970s?  I vaguely remember something about a problem with ice pellets forming in the discharge air stream.
               
              Jim Dooley
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 5:16 PM
              Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] Re: Tesla Turbine as a Compressor?

               
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@...] 
               ...
               At those RPMs, I would think that a Tesla compressor would probably work reasonably well.  It remains to be seen exactly how well in a single stage.  It may take stage compounding to accomplish sufficient compression for a refrigeration system using the common refrigerants in use today, such as R134a, R-22 and replacements such as Puron.

               

              Jim. I would recommend using a two turbine system. A compressor stage, running a power turbine, with the power fed back to the compressor through shaft and possibly gears. The compressed and heated gas runs through a heat exchanger to outside air, then when it works on the power turbine it cools off. The working gas can be air. This kind of heat engine is a bit more complex than a simple refrigerator, but it can be more efficient. And for a home built, no need to charge it with some expensive gas.


            • wmgeorge2002
              Well I dug out last night all my Home Machinist Workshop magazines that had series on building a Tesla turbine. I m going to look through what I have and get
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 17, 2004
                Well I dug out last night all my Home Machinist Workshop magazines
                that had series on building a Tesla turbine. I'm going to look
                through what I have and get some ideas, and maybe use those plans. I
                know it will need some tweeking to make it pump a gas, two stage with
                a check valve might be one way. B.G.


                --- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Dooley" <LSUman@m...> wrote:
                > MessageFred,
                >
                > I like the way you think, especially the part about no refrigerant.
                Although this would be ok for a direct A/C refrigeration/blower
                system, it would not be likely to work for other types of
                refrigeration where a high velocity stream of cold air is not desired,
                such as a food freezer. I would think such a system would cause lots
                of "freezer burn" to the food. Also, you'd have to find some way of
                removing condensate from the air stream when the output temperature
                falls below the dew point of the compressed air in the system.
                However, I think this concept warrants investigation. Does anyone on
                this list or the regular turbine list know of the results of Dr. Tom
                Edwards of Florida, who did some work with this concept in the early
                to mid 1970s? I vaguely remember something about a problem with ice
                pellets forming in the discharge air stream.
                >
                > Jim Dooley
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: McGalliard, Frederick B
                > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 5:16 PM
                > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] Re: Tesla Turbine as a Compressor?
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@m...]
                > ...
                > At those RPMs, I would think that a Tesla compressor would
                probably work reasonably well. It remains to be seen exactly how well
                in a single stage. It may take stage compounding to accomplish
                sufficient compression for a refrigeration system using the common
                refrigerants in use today, such as R134a, R-22 and replacements such
                as Puron.
                >
                >
                > Jim. I would recommend using a two turbine system. A compressor
                stage, running a power turbine, with the power fed back to the
                compressor through shaft and possibly gears. The compressed and heated
                gas runs through a heat exchanger to outside air, then when it works
                on the power turbine it cools off. The working gas can be air. This
                kind of heat engine is a bit more complex than a simple refrigerator,
                but it can be more efficient. And for a home built, no need to charge
                it with some expensive gas.
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > ADVERTISEMENT
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TeslaTurbine/
                >
                > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > TeslaTurbine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
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                Service.
              • Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM
                would you be willing to scan those and post them here in the files section? I d like to see that. ... From: wmgeorge2002 [mailto:machineshop@hotmail.com] Sent:
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 17, 2004
                  would you be willing to scan those and post them here in the files section? I'd like to see that.
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: wmgeorge2002 [mailto:machineshop@...]
                  Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 8:20 AM
                  To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Re: Tesla Turbine as a Compressor?

                  Well I dug out last night all my Home Machinist Workshop magazines
                  that had series on building a Tesla turbine.  I'm going to look
                  through what I have and get some ideas, and maybe use those plans. I
                  know it will need some tweeking to make it pump a gas, two stage with
                  a check valve might be one way. B.G.


                  --- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Dooley" <LSUman@m...> wrote:
                  > MessageFred,
                  >
                  > I like the way you think, especially the part about no refrigerant.
                  Although this would be ok for a direct A/C refrigeration/blower
                  system, it would not be likely to work for other types of
                  refrigeration where a high velocity stream of cold air is not desired,
                  such as a food freezer.  I would think such a system would cause lots
                  of "freezer burn" to the food.  Also, you'd have to find some way of
                  removing condensate from the air stream when the output temperature
                  falls below the dew point of the compressed air in the system.
                  However, I think this concept warrants investigation.  Does anyone on
                  this list or the regular turbine list know of the results of Dr. Tom
                  Edwards of Florida, who did some work with this concept in the early
                  to mid 1970s?  I vaguely remember something about a problem with ice
                  pellets forming in the discharge air stream.
                  >
                  > Jim Dooley
                  >
                  >   ----- Original Message -----
                  >   From: McGalliard, Frederick B
                  >   To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                  >   Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 5:16 PM
                  >   Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] Re: Tesla Turbine as a Compressor?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >     -----Original Message-----
                  >     From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@m...]
                  >      ...
                  >      At those RPMs, I would think that a Tesla compressor would
                  probably work reasonably well.  It remains to be seen exactly how well
                  in a single stage.  It may take stage compounding to accomplish
                  sufficient compression for a refrigeration system using the common
                  refrigerants in use today, such as R134a, R-22 and replacements such
                  as Puron.
                  >
                  >
                  >   Jim. I would recommend using a two turbine system. A compressor
                  stage, running a power turbine, with the power fed back to the
                  compressor through shaft and possibly gears. The compressed and heated
                  gas runs through a heat exchanger to outside air, then when it works
                  on the power turbine it cools off. The working gas can be air. This
                  kind of heat engine is a bit more complex than a simple refrigerator,
                  but it can be more efficient. And for a home built, no need to charge
                  it with some expensive gas.
                  >
                  >
                  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  >               ADVERTISEMENT
                  >             
                  >       
                  >       
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >   Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TeslaTurbine/
                  >      
                  >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  >     TeslaTurbine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >      
                  >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.


                • Ed Ivory
                  you may want to look into combining a tesla turbine and a vortex cooler. I have a vortex cooler and it seems to work quiet well. ...
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 17, 2004
                    you may want to look into combining a tesla turbine
                    and a vortex cooler. I have a vortex cooler and it
                    seems to work quiet well.
                    --- Jim Dooley <LSUman@...> wrote:

                    > MessageFred,
                    >
                    > I like the way you think, especially the part about
                    > no refrigerant. Although this would be ok for a
                    > direct A/C refrigeration/blower system, it would not
                    > be likely to work for other types of refrigeration
                    > where a high velocity stream of cold air is not
                    > desired, such as a food freezer. I would think such
                    > a system would cause lots of "freezer burn" to the
                    > food. Also, you'd have to find some way of removing
                    > condensate from the air stream when the output
                    > temperature falls below the dew point of the
                    > compressed air in the system. However, I think this
                    > concept warrants investigation. Does anyone on this
                    > list or the regular turbine list know of the results
                    > of Dr. Tom Edwards of Florida, who did some work
                    > with this concept in the early to mid 1970s? I
                    > vaguely remember something about a problem with ice
                    > pellets forming in the discharge air stream.
                    >
                    > Jim Dooley
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: McGalliard, Frederick B
                    > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 5:16 PM
                    > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] Re: Tesla Turbine as a
                    > Compressor?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@...]
                    > ...
                    > At those RPMs, I would think that a Tesla
                    > compressor would probably work reasonably well. It
                    > remains to be seen exactly how well in a single
                    > stage. It may take stage compounding to accomplish
                    > sufficient compression for a refrigeration system
                    > using the common refrigerants in use today, such as
                    > R134a, R-22 and replacements such as Puron.
                    >
                    >
                    > Jim. I would recommend using a two turbine system.
                    > A compressor stage, running a power turbine, with
                    > the power fed back to the compressor through shaft
                    > and possibly gears. The compressed and heated gas
                    > runs through a heat exchanger to outside air, then
                    > when it works on the power turbine it cools off. The
                    > working gas can be air. This kind of heat engine is
                    > a bit more complex than a simple refrigerator, but
                    > it can be more efficient. And for a home built, no
                    > need to charge it with some expensive gas.
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > ADVERTISEMENT
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TeslaTurbine/
                    >
                    > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
                    > email to:
                    > TeslaTurbine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                    > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    >
                    >




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                  • wmgeorge2002
                    Well I m missing a issue, I ll need to get it. It would be lots and lots of scanning, plus the stuff is still in print and copyrighted. They use all alumminum
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 20, 2004
                      Well I'm missing a issue, I'll need to get it. It would be lots and
                      lots of scanning, plus the stuff is still in print and copyrighted.
                      They use all alumminum construction and I'm thinking of steel and
                      stainless steel. Not sure what I'm going to do at this point. I do
                      have a CNC plasma cutter that I might try to see if I can cut the
                      runners out of stainless. B.G.


                      --- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM
                      <james.welsh@o...> wrote:
                      > would you be willing to scan those and post them here in the files
                      section?
                      > I'd like to see that.
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: wmgeorge2002 [mailto:machineshop@h...]
                      > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 8:20 AM
                      > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Re: Tesla Turbine as a Compressor?
                      >
                      >
                      > Well I dug out last night all my Home Machinist Workshop magazines
                      > that had series on building a Tesla turbine. I'm going to look
                      > through what I have and get some ideas, and maybe use those plans. I
                      > know it will need some tweeking to make it pump a gas, two stage with
                      > a check valve might be one way. B.G.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Dooley" <LSUman@m...> wrote:
                      > > MessageFred,
                      > >
                      > > I like the way you think, especially the part about no refrigerant.
                      > Although this would be ok for a direct A/C refrigeration/blower
                      > system, it would not be likely to work for other types of
                      > refrigeration where a high velocity stream of cold air is not desired,
                      > such as a food freezer. I would think such a system would cause lots
                      > of "freezer burn" to the food. Also, you'd have to find some way of
                      > removing condensate from the air stream when the output temperature
                      > falls below the dew point of the compressed air in the system.
                      > However, I think this concept warrants investigation. Does anyone on
                      > this list or the regular turbine list know of the results of Dr. Tom
                      > Edwards of Florida, who did some work with this concept in the early
                      > to mid 1970s? I vaguely remember something about a problem with ice
                      > pellets forming in the discharge air stream.
                      > >
                      > > Jim Dooley
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: McGalliard, Frederick B
                      > > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 5:16 PM
                      > > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] Re: Tesla Turbine as a Compressor?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@m...]
                      > > ...
                      > > At those RPMs, I would think that a Tesla compressor would
                      > probably work reasonably well. It remains to be seen exactly how well
                      > in a single stage. It may take stage compounding to accomplish
                      > sufficient compression for a refrigeration system using the common
                      > refrigerants in use today, such as R134a, R-22 and replacements such
                      > as Puron.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Jim. I would recommend using a two turbine system. A compressor
                      > stage, running a power turbine, with the power fed back to the
                      > compressor through shaft and possibly gears. The compressed and heated
                      > gas runs through a heat exchanger to outside air, then when it works
                      > on the power turbine it cools off. The working gas can be air. This
                      > kind of heat engine is a bit more complex than a simple refrigerator,
                      > but it can be more efficient. And for a home built, no need to charge
                      > it with some expensive gas.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      > > ADVERTISEMENT
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > --
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TeslaTurbine/
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                      > >
                      > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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