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RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

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  • Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM
    Andy, Have you checked out the files posted to the group in the files section? There s some info there on different calculations and designs that will help you
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 26, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Andy,
       
      Have you checked out the files posted to the group in the files section? There's some info there on different calculations and designs that will help you derive your specifications.
       
      As you poke around, you will find that Tesla Turbines operate at thousands of RPM's. One member of this post constructed a pump from old AOL CD's and reported they withstand to 16,000 rpms! Anyway... check out the files. You will need to consider disk spacing based on the viscosity of your medium. From the top of my head, I think I have seen numbers between 7-10 thousanths for air, 17 thousands for water. The working pressure you desire and the RPMs you will operate at will lend to the determination of your pump size.
       
      Love to see designs and pics as your project comes alive!!
       
       
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Drew Marinich [mailto:twosimple4u77@...]
      Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 2:19 PM
      To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

      Jim
         Hello all, My names Andy Marinich.  I'm a toolmaker from Peoria IL.  I've been interested in the idea of using a tesla turbine as a supercharger for my 88 tbird.
      I'm not sure where to begin, or if it's even practical.  If anyone can help with the mechnical side of the problem it would be appreciated.  In turn if I can help with any manufacturing problems let me know.  I would like to get about 10psi or more boost to the old 5.0

      Jim Dooley <LSUman@...> wrote:

      James,

       

      You have grasped it completely.  Yes, I have some preliminary concepts together.  I am currently working at a university engineering department, and a few of us have discussed a project.  I have worked with a physics grad student on a novel idea I had for improving the chemical storage battery.  The student is now doing the preliminary research needed to develop the construction method.  I have run the numbers and had several other engineers do the same and the answers all agreed.  We think that we should be able to approach a theoretical maximum battery capacity of 117 amp-hrs per pound of lead using conventional lead acid chemistry.  That should cut the needed weight of storage batteries for a vehicle drastically. 

       

      As to the drive system, I am a firm believer in the series wound DC motor for use in vehicles as opposed to using AC motors.  The speed versus torque characteristics of the series wound DC motor match those required for vehicle propulsion much more closely than does any other type of DC or AC motor.  I believe the best fit is a direct drive wheel mounted motor of the so-called "pancake" design.  These motors deliver maximum torque at stall and need not deliver high RPMs, as wheel speeds at highway speed are not that high.  Also, there is considerable weight savings to be realized using pancake motors on each wheel as compared to using one central drive motor and a mechanical drive train.  Using individual motors does away with the differential, drive shaft, half shafts and CV joints for starters.

       

      My degree is in Electrical Engineering, although I currently work in the Chemical Engineering department.  I have spoken to individuals in the Mechanical Engineering department about a joint project to develop a concept vehicle.  Mechanical Engineering currently has a donated Saturn automobile that we might be able to use as a developmental test bed.  I have one of my undergraduate students currently working with the Mechanical Engineering department to build a demonstration Tesla pump for display at Engineering Day, held each spring here on the campus.  We hope that will open a few eyes to the wonders of Tesla technology.  Hopefully we can then recruit more students and faculty into the vehicle development area.

       

      I have been working for some time with a retired machinist to develop a working Tesla gas turbine to power a high-speed onboard generator.  Progress is being made, but it is slow work.  The turbine section is almost complete and the compressor section is in process right now.  We met last night to lay plans for a testing setup for the compressor section to measure and document operating characteristics.  We could use help from any list members who have knowledge or experience with burner cans and nozzle design.

       

      Jim Dooley

       

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM [mailto:jamees.welsh@...]
      Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:34 AM
      To: 'TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

       

      Jim,

       

      Interesting...

       

      So are you saying,

       

      Convert a vehicle to use an electrical motor to each wheel (which doubles as a electrical generation device when coasting,) with some onboard storage, supplemented by an onboard generator which would automatically power on during high power output or low battery conditions?

       

      Do you have any preliminary concepts together for your idea?

       

      James Welsh

      MCOM Database Support, OAFS

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@...]
      Sent:
      Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:24 PM
      To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

       

      Fred,

       

      You are right, of course.  I suppose I should have elaborated more. I had in mind a combustion turbine of the type used in electrical generation.

       

       My main concern for such a device is in its use in mobile power generation.  A well developed and fairly refined Tesla turbine of rather small size and weight can likely be made to produce all the power needed for hybrid vehicle drive systems at fairly low cost.  I believe those auto manufacturers that are putting out hybrids have the right idea, but are executing it badly.  The only reason they aren't much better than they are is because they insist on using those highly inefficient reciprocating IC engines.  And I also know the reason the do it is because they have so much invested in the tooling and production lines to manufacture these engines. 

       

      IMHO, vehicle propulsion can be so much better than it currently is if only the mountain of mechanical mumbo-jumbo could be stripped out and replaced with direct electrical drive motors in each wheel.  All the needed drive technology is here today and available for purchase as shelf items. 

       

      Until such time as a breakthrough in energy storage devices is made, the only way to ensure the perception of sufficient range is by the use of onboard charging.  A Tesla turbine-powered DC generator would excel in this application.

       

      I would be interested on the thoughts of others on this list on the subject of hybrid propulsion using Tesla turbine-powered onboard generation.

       

      Jim Dooley

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: fred mcgalliard [mailto:fbmcgalliard@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:26 PM
      To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

       

      Well, remember that there are a number of systems that need heat engines and
      pumps that do not operate at the thin edge of molten metal. A solar furnace,
      trough type, is pressed to get much above 500C, and probably should be
      expected to produce no more than 150C. A heat pump, of course, may be
      operating with delta T of 20C or less. While OTEC systems might want to run
      around 20-30C, there are a number of very practical solar and household
      thermal applications if this system can run with 50C differences. The
      thermodynamic efficiency is not so important as the actual efficiency in
      these applications. If the TT can make 80% we could have a real winner.

      _________________________________________________________________
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    • hispeed_lodrag
      New to the board, but this thread struck a chord with me as I have had a similar idea floating in my head for awhile. Although I am very interested in BLT
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 31, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        New to the board, but this thread struck a chord with me as I have
        had a similar idea floating in my head for awhile. Although I am
        very interested in BLT technology I think a good start would be to
        develop a system that first utilizes one of the miniature
        conventional gas turbines available on the market first to work out
        the sytem, then potentially incorporate a BLT after the system is
        shown to work. I think that a gas turbine operating at a constant
        speed turning a DC generator would be best. Just my opinion of
        course, but I think that a whole segment of the market is being
        missed by utilizing the current hybrid automotive technologies as
        only a means of attracting "green" consumers. As pointed out, an
        electrical motor has maximum torque at zero RPM...perfect for
        spectacular acceleration!

        A motor at each wheel has been proven in locomotive design and
        application for many years (again due to the massive torque available
        at low RPM) and such a system would offer many benefits in a sports
        car that I can think of right off and very few drawbacks:

        1. Very high power/weight ratio for engine and high speed generator
        can be very small for power ouput.
        2. Elimination of the vast majority of the drive train (even more
        saved weight)
        3. The ability to control each wheel independently - very easy to
        incorporate traction control and ABS (maybe even steering at high
        speeds).
        4. No drive train means that power unit could be mounted at the
        designer's whim to wherever would be convenient for optimum weight
        distribution.
        5. Can run on just about anything, but the current infrastructure
        makes diesel likely the most convenient
        6. A (practical) jet powered car!

        Just imagine the look of confusion on the face of the guy in the
        Corvette when you pull up next to him and that high speed turbine
        whine and hum is eminating from your car. Then imagine his further
        confusion when you accelerate away like a F1 race car at the green
        before he can even engage his clutch.

        Very cool.

        Regards,
        Stephen



        --- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Dooley" <LSUman@m...> wrote:
        > James,
        >
        > You have grasped it completely. Yes, I have some preliminary
        concepts
        > together. I am currently working at a university engineering
        department,
        > and a few of us have discussed a project. I have worked with a
        physics grad
        > student on a novel idea I had for improving the chemical storage
        battery.
        > The student is now doing the preliminary research needed to develop
        the
        > construction method. I have run the numbers and had several other
        engineers
        > do the same and the answers all agreed. We think that we should be
        able to
        > approach a theoretical maximum battery capacity of 117 amp-hrs per
        pound of
        > lead using conventional lead acid chemistry. That should cut the
        needed
        > weight of storage batteries for a vehicle drastically.
        >
        > As to the drive system, I am a firm believer in the series wound DC
        motor
        > for use in vehicles as opposed to using AC motors. The speed
        versus torque
        > characteristics of the series wound DC motor match those required
        for
        > vehicle propulsion much more closely than does any other type of DC
        or AC
        > motor. I believe the best fit is a direct drive wheel mounted
        motor of the
        > so-called "pancake" design. These motors deliver maximum torque at
        stall
        > and need not deliver high RPMs, as wheel speeds at highway speed
        are not
        > that high. Also, there is considerable weight savings to be
        realized using
        > pancake motors on each wheel as compared to using one central drive
        motor
        > and a mechanical drive train. Using individual motors does away
        with the
        > differential, drive shaft, half shafts and CV joints for starters.
        >
        > My degree is in Electrical Engineering, although I currently work
        in the
        > Chemical Engineering department. I have spoken to individuals in
        the
        > Mechanical Engineering department about a joint project to develop
        a concept
        > vehicle. Mechanical Engineering currently has a donated Saturn
        automobile
        > that we might be able to use as a developmental test bed. I have
        one of my
        > undergraduate students currently working with the Mechanical
        Engineering
        > department to build a demonstration Tesla pump for display at
        Engineering
        > Day, held each spring here on the campus. We hope that will open a
        few eyes
        > to the wonders of Tesla technology. Hopefully we can then recruit
        more
        > students and faculty into the vehicle development area.
        >
        > I have been working for some time with a retired machinist to
        develop a
        > working Tesla gas turbine to power a high-speed onboard generator.
        Progress
        > is being made, but it is slow work. The turbine section is almost
        complete
        > and the compressor section is in process right now. We met last
        night to
        > lay plans for a testing setup for the compressor section to measure
        and
        > document operating characteristics. We could use help from any
        list members
        > who have knowledge or experience with burner cans and nozzle design.
        >
        > Jim Dooley
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM [mailto:james.welsh@o...]
        > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:34 AM
        > To: 'TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com'
        > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
        >
        > Jim,
        >
        > Interesting…
        >
        > So are you saying,
        >
        > Convert a vehicle to use an electrical motor to each wheel (which
        doubles as
        > a electrical generation device when coasting,) with some onboard
        storage,
        > supplemented by an onboard generator which would automatically
        power on
        > during high power output or low battery conditions?
        >
        > Do you have any preliminary concepts together for your idea?
        >
        > James Welsh
        > MCOM Database Support, OAFS
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@m...]
        > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:24 PM
        > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
        >
        > Fred,
        >
        > You are right, of course. I suppose I should have elaborated more.
        I had in
        > mind a combustion turbine of the type used in electrical generation.
        >
        > My main concern for such a device is in its use in mobile power
        generation.
        > A well developed and fairly refined Tesla turbine of rather small
        size and
        > weight can likely be made to produce all the power needed for
        hybrid vehicle
        > drive systems at fairly low cost. I believe those auto
        manufacturers that
        > are putting out hybrids have the right idea, but are executing it
        badly.
        > The only reason they aren't much better than they are is because
        they insist
        > on using those highly inefficient reciprocating IC engines. And I
        also know
        > the reason the do it is because they have so much invested in the
        tooling
        > and production lines to manufacture these engines.
        >
        > IMHO, vehicle propulsion can be so much better than it currently is
        if only
        > the mountain of mechanical mumbo-jumbo could be stripped out and
        replaced
        > with direct electrical drive motors in each wheel. All the needed
        drive
        > technology is here today and available for purchase as shelf items.
        >
        > Until such time as a breakthrough in energy storage devices is
        made, the
        > only way to ensure the perception of sufficient range is by the use
        of
        > onboard charging. A Tesla turbine-powered DC generator would excel
        in this
        > application.
        >
        > I would be interested on the thoughts of others on this list on the
        subject
        > of hybrid propulsion using Tesla turbine-powered onboard generation.
        >
        > Jim Dooley
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: fred mcgalliard [mailto:fbmcgalliard@h...]
        > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:26 PM
        > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
        >
        > Well, remember that there are a number of systems that need heat
        engines and
        > pumps that do not operate at the thin edge of molten metal. A solar
        furnace,
        > trough type, is pressed to get much above 500C, and probably should
        be
        > expected to produce no more than 150C. A heat pump, of course, may
        be
        > operating with delta T of 20C or less. While OTEC systems might
        want to run
        > around 20-30C, there are a number of very practical solar and
        household
        > thermal applications if this system can run with 50C differences.
        The
        > thermodynamic efficiency is not so important as the actual
        efficiency in
        > these applications. If the TT can make 80% we could have a real
        winner.
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
        it's FREE!
        > ht http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
        >
        >
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        >
        >
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        >
        >
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      • Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM
        Jim, I just had a chance to re-read your post. I d be interested in seeing the demonstration on engineering day, what school is it and where are you located?
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 31, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Jim,

          I just had a chance to re-read your post. I'd be interested in seeing the demonstration on engineering day, what school is it and where are you located?

          Stephen,

          you read my mind. That's what I'm talking about.

          All,

          The other thing I have been thinking lately regarding the Tesla engine and Automotive transportation, is that if I were making a new vehicle from scratch, I would be able to make it anyway I wanted. For example, if I wanted to change the way the car handles by giving it a lower center of gravity, I could change the tesla engine into a small precision engine that would actually be tubes running along the bottom of the vehicle. Each tube would be about 3-4" in diameter laid side by side. These tubes would not only make up the chassis of the vehicle, but also provide chambers for bladeless discs and fuel mixture. This could be used to make multiple stages.

          The German V-2 rocket nozzles were constructed from many tubes laid side by side and formed into the shape of the nozzle. They would then flow the fuel into the tubes. As the rocket nozzle would fire, the incoming fuel would flow through the nozzle jacket. Not only did this accomplish cooling the nozzle for longer nozzle life and accurate trajectory, but it also pre-heated the fuel for improved combustion. This same type of technology could be used by adding copper fuel supply line runs along the sides of the parallel 4" tubes. but I'm just daydreaming and haven't' done any calculations... so don't listen to me!!

          I do like the idea of the low center of gravity and completely new engine type design. Perhaps I should do some drawings so all of this makes more sense...

          -----Original Message-----
          From: hispeed_lodrag [mailto:hispeed_lodrag@...]
          Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 4:23 PM
          To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Re: How Can I help




          New to the board, but this thread struck a chord with me as I have
          had a similar idea floating in my head for awhile. Although I am
          very interested in BLT technology I think a good start would be to
          develop a system that first utilizes one of the miniature
          conventional gas turbines available on the market first to work out
          the sytem, then potentially incorporate a BLT after the system is
          shown to work. I think that a gas turbine operating at a constant
          speed turning a DC generator would be best. Just my opinion of
          course, but I think that a whole segment of the market is being
          missed by utilizing the current hybrid automotive technologies as
          only a means of attracting "green" consumers. As pointed out, an
          electrical motor has maximum torque at zero RPM...perfect for
          spectacular acceleration!

          A motor at each wheel has been proven in locomotive design and
          application for many years (again due to the massive torque available
          at low RPM) and such a system would offer many benefits in a sports
          car that I can think of right off and very few drawbacks:

          1. Very high power/weight ratio for engine and high speed generator
          can be very small for power ouput.
          2. Elimination of the vast majority of the drive train (even more
          saved weight)
          3. The ability to control each wheel independently - very easy to
          incorporate traction control and ABS (maybe even steering at high
          speeds).
          4. No drive train means that power unit could be mounted at the
          designer's whim to wherever would be convenient for optimum weight
          distribution.
          5. Can run on just about anything, but the current infrastructure
          makes diesel likely the most convenient
          6. A (practical) jet powered car!

          Just imagine the look of confusion on the face of the guy in the
          Corvette when you pull up next to him and that high speed turbine
          whine and hum is eminating from your car. Then imagine his further
          confusion when you accelerate away like a F1 race car at the green
          before he can even engage his clutch.

          Very cool.

          Regards,
          Stephen



          --- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Dooley" <LSUman@m...> wrote:
          > James,
          >
          > You have grasped it completely. Yes, I have some preliminary
          concepts
          > together. I am currently working at a university engineering
          department,
          > and a few of us have discussed a project. I have worked with a
          physics grad
          > student on a novel idea I had for improving the chemical storage
          battery.
          > The student is now doing the preliminary research needed to develop
          the
          > construction method. I have run the numbers and had several other
          engineers
          > do the same and the answers all agreed. We think that we should be
          able to
          > approach a theoretical maximum battery capacity of 117 amp-hrs per
          pound of
          > lead using conventional lead acid chemistry. That should cut the
          needed
          > weight of storage batteries for a vehicle drastically.
          >
          > As to the drive system, I am a firm believer in the series wound DC
          motor
          > for use in vehicles as opposed to using AC motors. The speed
          versus torque
          > characteristics of the series wound DC motor match those required
          for
          > vehicle propulsion much more closely than does any other type of DC
          or AC
          > motor. I believe the best fit is a direct drive wheel mounted
          motor of the
          > so-called "pancake" design. These motors deliver maximum torque at
          stall
          > and need not deliver high RPMs, as wheel speeds at highway speed
          are not
          > that high. Also, there is considerable weight savings to be
          realized using
          > pancake motors on each wheel as compared to using one central drive
          motor
          > and a mechanical drive train. Using individual motors does away
          with the
          > differential, drive shaft, half shafts and CV joints for starters.
          >
          > My degree is in Electrical Engineering, although I currently work
          in the
          > Chemical Engineering department. I have spoken to individuals in
          the
          > Mechanical Engineering department about a joint project to develop
          a concept
          > vehicle. Mechanical Engineering currently has a donated Saturn
          automobile
          > that we might be able to use as a developmental test bed. I have
          one of my
          > undergraduate students currently working with the Mechanical
          Engineering
          > department to build a demonstration Tesla pump for display at
          Engineering
          > Day, held each spring here on the campus. We hope that will open a
          few eyes
          > to the wonders of Tesla technology. Hopefully we can then recruit
          more
          > students and faculty into the vehicle development area.
          >
          > I have been working for some time with a retired machinist to
          develop a
          > working Tesla gas turbine to power a high-speed onboard generator.
          Progress
          > is being made, but it is slow work. The turbine section is almost
          complete
          > and the compressor section is in process right now. We met last
          night to
          > lay plans for a testing setup for the compressor section to measure
          and
          > document operating characteristics. We could use help from any
          list members
          > who have knowledge or experience with burner cans and nozzle design.
          >
          > Jim Dooley
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM [mailto:james.welsh@o...]
          > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:34 AM
          > To: 'TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com'
          > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
          >
          > Jim,
          >
          > Interesting...
          >
          > So are you saying,
          >
          > Convert a vehicle to use an electrical motor to each wheel (which
          doubles as
          > a electrical generation device when coasting,) with some onboard
          storage,
          > supplemented by an onboard generator which would automatically
          power on
          > during high power output or low battery conditions?
          >
          > Do you have any preliminary concepts together for your idea?
          >
          > James Welsh
          > MCOM Database Support, OAFS
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@m...]
          > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:24 PM
          > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
          >
          > Fred,
          >
          > You are right, of course. I suppose I should have elaborated more.
          I had in
          > mind a combustion turbine of the type used in electrical generation.
          >
          > My main concern for such a device is in its use in mobile power
          generation.
          > A well developed and fairly refined Tesla turbine of rather small
          size and
          > weight can likely be made to produce all the power needed for
          hybrid vehicle
          > drive systems at fairly low cost. I believe those auto
          manufacturers that
          > are putting out hybrids have the right idea, but are executing it
          badly.
          > The only reason they aren't much better than they are is because
          they insist
          > on using those highly inefficient reciprocating IC engines. And I
          also know
          > the reason the do it is because they have so much invested in the
          tooling
          > and production lines to manufacture these engines.
          >
          > IMHO, vehicle propulsion can be so much better than it currently is
          if only
          > the mountain of mechanical mumbo-jumbo could be stripped out and
          replaced
          > with direct electrical drive motors in each wheel. All the needed
          drive
          > technology is here today and available for purchase as shelf items.
          >
          > Until such time as a breakthrough in energy storage devices is
          made, the
          > only way to ensure the perception of sufficient range is by the use
          of
          > onboard charging. A Tesla turbine-powered DC generator would excel
          in this
          > application.
          >
          > I would be interested on the thoughts of others on this list on the
          subject
          > of hybrid propulsion using Tesla turbine-powered onboard generation.
          >
          > Jim Dooley
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: fred mcgalliard [mailto:fbmcgalliard@h...]
          > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:26 PM
          > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
          >
          > Well, remember that there are a number of systems that need heat
          engines and
          > pumps that do not operate at the thin edge of molten metal. A solar
          furnace,
          > trough type, is pressed to get much above 500C, and probably should
          be
          > expected to produce no more than 150C. A heat pump, of course, may
          be
          > operating with delta T of 20C or less. While OTEC systems might
          want to run
          > around 20-30C, there are a number of very practical solar and
          household
          > thermal applications if this system can run with 50C differences.
          The
          > thermodynamic efficiency is not so important as the actual
          efficiency in
          > these applications. If the TT can make 80% we could have a real
          winner.
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
          it's FREE!
          > ht http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > ADVERTISEMENT
          > click here
          >
          <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129k46759/M=298184.5285298.6392945.300117
          6/D=gr
          >
          oups/S=1705083412:HM/EXP=1093617255/A=2319501/R=0/SIG=11tq0u909/*http:
          //www.
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          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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          >
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        • AE Hill
          Good nu-year ya all! I’ve been visiting my mom in Texas. Speaking of automotive concepts… I too, have long considered the concepts used by locomotives. The
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 1, 2005
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            Good nu-year ya all!

             

            I�ve been visiting my mom in Texas .

             

            Speaking of automotive concepts�

            I too, have long considered the concepts used by locomotives.

            The driving habits of the �normal� driver wastes lots of energy.

            People like fast starts, and fast stops.

            They also like high speed long-distance driving, but typically spend much more of the world�s resources with �city� driving.

            High-torque motors in each wheel seems great,
            drive-trains are relatively inefficient. 

             

            So, let�s not forget another [even more influential] Tesla concept.

            Tesla [with Westinghouse] battled for years in the public forums the pros and cons of his Alternating Current concepts with the dim-witted Edison [with General Electric] who supported Direct Current power systems.

             

            The real crux of the matter turned out to be transmission loses at low voltages.

            The higher the voltages, the less energy is lost over the same power transmission lines.

             Alternating Current could use transformers to raise the voltages at the power generating site and more transformers on the receiving end to lower the voltages [for safety].

             

            In a car the transmission line is �short.� The problem is that the power is �high.�

            A common example happens to be the transmission lines going to the normal automobile starter. We all know they have to about 1/2 inch diameter wire. Why? The power to turn over a infernal [internal] combustion engine is �high.� [The cars of the future will go 48 volts to mitigate this circumstance.] At 12 volts it takes about 100 amps to get the job done. Power equals voltage times current, so that would be about 1.2kW. From a practical point of view, it is the 100 amps that determines the wire-gage.

            [At 48 volts, the same power only needs 25 amps of current and much smaller wire]

             

            The size of the wire is important, but the contact resistance is also important.

            The higher the current, the more heat any contact resistance will be. Contact resistance is important at all connections from the power source to motors.

             

            Another major consideration would be the price of the finial current controlling device. Higher current ratings mean higher heat dissipations and higher prices.

             

            Then, very importantly, the gage of the wire needed for the motor windings depends on the current [because of heat generated] not the power. At the same power, the higher the voltage, the lower the current, and the smaller the wire has to be for the motor windings.

             

            In the physical world, nothing starts instantaneously, nor does anything stop instantaneously. Direct Current suffer from this conceptual flaw. As the motor turns, it tries to switch on and off instantaneously.

             

            With Tesla�s concept, the power of the motor shifts using a sinusoidal transfer function. To increase torque, all the motor designer has to do is increase the number poles. This increases the complexity, but adds to the redundancy [and therefore increases the reliability] of the motor.

             

            In review, Tesla�s Alternating Current concept can more readily generate higher sinusoidal voltages and therefore transfer power more efficiently to the motor while using more cost effective controlling components.

             

            As far as �normal drivers� go, another popular craze today is �RV� abilities.

            Also, let�s not forget the importance vehicle suspension and road clearance.

            The motor-in-the-wheel idea will allow the suspension to easily clear very impressive obstacles without drive shaft problems.

             

            What do ya think?

             

              Hill



            Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM <james.welsh@...> wrote:

            Jim,

            I just had a chance to re-read your post. I'd be interested in seeing the demonstration on engineering day, what school is it and where are you located?

            Stephen,

            you read my mind. That's what I'm talking about.

            All,

            The other thing I have been thinking lately regarding the Tesla engine and Automotive transportation, is that if I were making a new vehicle from scratch, I would be able to make it anyway I wanted. For example, if I wanted to change the way the car handles by giving it a lower center of gravity, I could change the tesla engine into a small precision engine that would actually be tubes running along the bottom of the vehicle. Each tube would be about 3-4" in diameter laid side by side. These tubes would not only make up the chassis of the vehicle, but also provide chambers for bladeless discs and fuel mixture. This could be used to make multiple stages.

            The German V-2 rocket nozzles were constructed from many tubes laid side by side and formed into the shape of the nozzle. They would then flow the fuel into the tubes. As the rocket nozzle would fire, the incoming fuel would flow through the nozzle jacket. Not only did this accomplish cooling the nozzle for longer nozzle life and accurate trajectory, but it also pre-heated the fuel for improved combustion. This same type of technology could be used by adding copper fuel supply line runs along the sides of the parallel 4" tubes. but I'm just daydreaming and haven't' done any calculations... so don't listen to me!!

            I do like the idea of the low center of gravity and completely new engine type design. Perhaps I should do some drawings so all of this makes more sense...

            -----Original Message-----
            From: hispeed_lodrag [mailto:hispeed_lodrag@...]
            Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 4:23 PM
            To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Re: How Can I help




            New to the board, but this thread struck a chord with me as I have
            had a similar idea floating in my head for awhile.  Although I am
            very interested in BLT technology I think a good start would be to
            develop a system that first utilizes one of the miniature
            conventional gas turbines available on the market first to work out
            the sytem, then potentially incorporate a BLT after the system is
            shown to work.  I think that a gas turbine operating at a constant
            speed turning a DC generator would be best.  Just my opinion of
            course, but I think that a whole segment of the market is being
            missed by utilizing the current hybrid automotive technologies as
            only a means of attracting "green" consumers.  As pointed out, an
            electrical motor has maximum torque at zero RPM...perfect for
            spectacular acceleration!

            A motor at each wheel has been proven in locomotive design and
            application for many years (again due to the massive torque available
            at low RPM) and such a system would offer many benefits in a sports
            car that I can think of right off and very few drawbacks:

            1.  Very high power/weight ratio for engine and high speed generator
            can be very small for power ouput.
            2.  Elimination of the vast majority of the drive train (even more
            saved weight)
            3.  The ability to control each wheel independently - very easy to
            incorporate traction control and ABS (maybe even steering at high
            speeds).
            4.  No drive train means that power unit could be mounted at the
            designer's whim to wherever would be convenient for optimum weight
            distribution.
            5. Can run on just about anything, but the current infrastructure
            makes diesel likely the most convenient
            6.  A (practical) jet powered car!

            Just imagine the look of confusion on the face of the guy in the
            Corvette when you pull up next to him and that high speed turbine
            whine and hum is eminating from your car.  Then imagine his further
            confusion when you accelerate away like a F1 race car at the green
            before he can even engage his clutch.

            Very cool.

            Regards,
            Stephen



            --- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Dooley" <LSUman@m...> wrote:
            > James,
            >
            > You have grasped it completely.  Yes, I have some preliminary
            concepts
            > together.  I am currently working at a university engineering
            department,
            > and a few of us have discussed a project.  I have worked with a
            physics grad
            > student on a novel idea I had for improving the chemical storage
            battery.
            > The student is now doing the preliminary research needed to develop
            the
            > construction method.  I have run the numbers and had several other
            engineers
            > do the same and the answers all agreed.  We think that we should be
            able to
            > approach a theoretical maximum battery capacity of 117 amp-hrs per
            pound of
            > lead using conventional lead acid chemistry.  That should cut the
            needed
            > weight of storage batteries for a vehicle drastically.
            >
            > As to the drive system, I am a firm believer in the series wound DC
            motor
            > for use in vehicles as opposed to using AC motors.  The speed
            versus torque
            > characteristics of the series wound DC motor match those required
            for
            > vehicle propulsion much more closely than does any other type of DC
            or AC
            > motor.  I believe the best fit is a direct drive wheel mounted
            motor of the
            > so-called "pancake" design.  These motors deliver maximum torque at
            stall
            > and need not deliver high RPMs, as wheel speeds at highway speed
            are not
            > that high.  Also, there is considerable weight savings to be
            realized using
            > pancake motors on each wheel as compared to using one central drive
            motor
            > and a mechanical drive train.  Using individual motors does away
            with the
            > differential, drive shaft, half shafts and CV joints for starters.
            >
            > My degree is in Electrical Engineering, although I currently work
            in the
            > Chemical Engineering department.  I have spoken to individuals in
            the
            > Mechanical Engineering department about a joint project to develop
            a concept
            > vehicle.  Mechanical Engineering currently has a donated Saturn
            automobile
            > that we might be able to use as a developmental test bed.  I have
            one of my
            > undergraduate students currently working with the Mechanical
            Engineering
            > department to build a demonstration Tesla pump for display at
            Engineering
            > Day, held each spring here on the campus.  We hope that will open a
            few eyes
            > to the wonders of Tesla technology.  Hopefully we can then recruit
            more
            > students and faculty into the vehicle development area.
            >
            > I have been working for some time with a retired machinist to
            develop a
            > working Tesla gas turbine to power a high-speed onboard generator. 
            Progress
            > is being made, but it is slow work.  The turbine section is almost
            complete
            > and the compressor section is in process right now.  We met last
            night to
            > lay plans for a testing setup for the compressor section to measure
            and
            > document operating characteristics.  We could use help from any
            list members
            > who have knowledge or experience with burner cans and nozzle design.
            >
            > Jim Dooley
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM [mailto:james.welsh@o...]
            > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:34 AM
            > To: 'TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com'
            > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
            >
            > Jim,
            >
            > Interesting...
            >
            > So are you saying,
            >
            > Convert a vehicle to use an electrical motor to each wheel (which
            doubles as
            > a electrical generation device when coasting,) with some onboard
            storage,
            > supplemented by an onboard generator which would automatically
            power on
            > during high power output or low battery conditions?
            >
            > Do you have any preliminary concepts together for your idea?
            >
            > James Welsh
            > MCOM Database Support, OAFS
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@m...]
            > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:24 PM
            > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
            >
            > Fred,
            >
            > You are right, of course.  I suppose I should have elaborated more.
            I had in
            > mind a combustion turbine of the type used in electrical generation.
            >
            >  My main concern for such a device is in its use in mobile power
            generation.
            > A well developed and fairly refined Tesla turbine of rather small
            size and
            > weight can likely be made to produce all the power needed for
            hybrid vehicle
            > drive systems at fairly low cost.  I believe those auto
            manufacturers that
            > are putting out hybrids have the right idea, but are executing it
            badly.
            > The only reason they aren't much better than they are is because
            they insist
            > on using those highly inefficient reciprocating IC engines.  And I
            also know
            > the reason the do it is because they have so much invested in the
            tooling
            > and production lines to manufacture these engines.
            >
            > IMHO, vehicle propulsion can be so much better than it currently is
            if only
            > the mountain of mechanical mumbo-jumbo could be stripped out and
            replaced
            > with direct electrical drive motors in each wheel.  All the needed
            drive
            > technology is here today and available for purchase as shelf items.
            >
            > Until such time as a breakthrough in energy storage devices is
            made, the
            > only way to ensure the perception of sufficient range is by the use
            of
            > onboard charging.  A Tesla turbine-powered DC generator would excel
            in this
            > application.
            >
            > I would be interested on the thoughts of others on this list on the
            subject
            > of hybrid propulsion using Tesla turbine-powered onboard generation.
            >
            > Jim Dooley
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: fred mcgalliard [mailto:fbmcgalliard@h...]
            > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:26 PM
            > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
            >
            > Well, remember that there are a number of systems that need heat
            engines and
            > pumps that do not operate at the thin edge of molten metal. A solar
            furnace,
            > trough type, is pressed to get much above 500C, and probably should
            be
            > expected to produce no more than 150C. A heat pump, of course, may
            be
            > operating with delta T of 20C or less. While OTEC systems might
            want to run
            > around 20-30C, there are a number of very practical solar and
            household
            > thermal applications if this system can run with 50C differences.
            The
            > thermodynamic efficiency is not so important as the actual
            efficiency in
            > these applications. If the TT can make 80% we could have a real
            winner.
            >
            >


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          • Jim
            to which post are you refering? i am located in tx.just south of dallas.
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 2, 2005
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              to which post are you refering?
              i am located in tx.just south of dallas.
            • Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM
              I m assuming you are responding to my mail... I was referring to the post where you mentioned the engineering day. It would be cool to come see the
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 2, 2005
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                I'm assuming you are responding to my mail... I was referring to the
                post where you mentioned the engineering day. It would be cool to come
                see the demonstration, but I am in California...

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Jim [mailto:sabredrivr@...]
                Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 3:05 AM
                To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Re: How Can I help



                to which post are you refering?
                i am located in tx.just south of dallas.






                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • hispeed_lodrag
                Lee, I haven t worked with the small turbines much myself, but am familiar with them through casual research and having observed some of the smaller ones fly
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 11, 2005
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                  Lee,

                  I haven't worked with the small turbines much myself, but am familiar
                  with them through casual research and having observed some of the
                  smaller ones fly in radio controlled jet aircraft (very impressive by
                  the way). I know that there is a growing interest in using these
                  types of gas turbines for remote power generation and I'm sure that
                  someone out there has devised a muffling system for this type of
                  application. Try a Google search for this application and see what
                  comes up! I'm sure that there is something documented out there.

                  Stephen

                  --- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, "lee B" <leebell@l...> wrote:
                  > Stephen,
                  > I was wondering if you know, I don't , do they (meaning people who
                  make gas turbines) have any way of muffling those things down so the
                  whine isn't so loud?
                  > Otherwise that sounds like a good idea to me. I was thinking of
                  getting 2-4 of those electronic brushless motors that are built
                  into bike wheels and mounting them on something like one of
                  the "rhodes cars" and then use batteries/gas generator to power
                  them . With a small shell body the electric 4 wheeler would be a good
                  cheap transportation. I ride a recumbent trike a lot but it would be
                  nice to get out of the weather (if designed right, my idea would have
                  pedals too) With the same type motors but bigger (I know they are
                  made in a number of sizes) and using motorcycle wheels a version
                  with what you are talking about with a small gas turbine would be
                  even better... it could be a "veggie car" too if it would run on
                  WVO. : o ) You could still have a high hp versus weight ratio
                  especially if you used a couple of batts for just acceleration amps
                  assist.
                  >
                  > Lee B
                  >
                  > Alright, now question for everybody else.... how big would a tesla
                  turbine running on fuel have to be to run a gen/alt capable of
                  putting out enough current to pump 60 amps at 220 v ? (20hp?) .hmmm
                  maybe time to do some research again . I'm a newbie to this stuff too-
                  I'm just starting a air turbine with harddisk platters - still
                  making inserts.
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: hispeed_lodrag
                  > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 7:22 PM
                  > Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Re: How Can I help
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > New to the board, but this thread struck a chord with me as I
                  have
                  > had a similar idea floating in my head for awhile. Although I am
                  > very interested in BLT technology I think a good start would be
                  to
                  > develop a system that first utilizes one of the miniature
                  > conventional gas turbines available on the market first to work
                  out
                  > the sytem, then potentially incorporate a BLT after the system is
                  > shown to work. I think that a gas turbine operating at a
                  constant
                  > speed turning a DC generator would be best. Just my opinion of
                  > course, but I think that a whole segment of the market is being
                  > missed by utilizing the current hybrid automotive technologies as
                  > only a means of attracting "green" consumers. As pointed out, an
                  > electrical motor has maximum torque at zero RPM...perfect for
                  > spectacular acceleration!
                  >
                  > A motor at each wheel has been proven in locomotive design and
                  > application for many years (again due to the massive torque
                  available
                  > at low RPM) and such a system would offer many benefits in a
                  sports
                  > car that I can think of right off and very few drawbacks:
                  >
                  > 1. Very high power/weight ratio for engine and high speed
                  generator
                  > can be very small for power ouput.
                  > 2. Elimination of the vast majority of the drive train (even
                  more
                  > saved weight)
                  > 3. The ability to control each wheel independently - very easy
                  to
                  > incorporate traction control and ABS (maybe even steering at high
                  > speeds).
                  > 4. No drive train means that power unit could be mounted at the
                  > designer's whim to wherever would be convenient for optimum
                  weight
                  > distribution.
                  > 5. Can run on just about anything, but the current infrastructure
                  > makes diesel likely the most convenient
                  > 6. A (practical) jet powered car!
                  >
                  > Just imagine the look of confusion on the face of the guy in the
                  > Corvette when you pull up next to him and that high speed turbine
                  > whine and hum is eminating from your car. Then imagine his
                  further
                  > confusion when you accelerate away like a F1 race car at the
                  green
                  > before he can even engage his clutch.
                  >
                  > Very cool.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Stephen
                • Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM
                  Vivek, In 1906 Nikola Tesla created the engine that was touted as the power house in a hat. It weighed less than fifty pounds and was approximately 18 inches
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 20, 2005
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                    Vivek,

                    In 1906 Nikola Tesla created the engine that was touted as the "power
                    house in a hat." It weighed less than fifty pounds and was approximately
                    18 inches wide. With some development, a similar model operating at
                    16,000 RPMs generated 200 HP. I don't know about 300HP, but it has been
                    a long time since then and perhaps enough has been learned about them
                    since then to increase the efficiency. I do know that 200 HP has been
                    achieved, referencing "Tesla, master of lightning" by Margaret Cheney &
                    Robert Uth, ISBN 1-5866-3187-X.

                    I also purchased an interesting book recently that is a compendium of
                    all Tesla Patents. If you are interested in that, let me know and I'll
                    give you the ISBN for that.

                    As for designs, there should be some files posted to the yahoo group
                    stating design characteristics and other operational reviews. If you
                    have difficulty, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

                    There are a lot of factors that determine design, but most are
                    determined by your usage. Will you be using steam or some other prime
                    mover? Will you be driving it or using it to drive? The heart of the
                    Tesla machine is the bladeless disk, they can drive a fluid or be
                    driven. The heat that the disks have to withstand determines that
                    material that you will be using. Also, since the disks spin at great
                    speeds, centrifugal forces can warp the disks significantly if the metal
                    is too soft. When calculating this, don't forget that the disks will be
                    under heat, so the elasticity of the metal is not calculated at room
                    temperature, but at the turbine operating temp.

                    Another thing that helps flush out your design, is knowing what medium
                    you are moving. The viscosity of the fluid or gas determines the
                    separation of the disks. EG, air is less viscous, so your disk
                    separation would be less than .010" Whereas separation for water would
                    be closer to .017".

                    I hope that helps.

                    Let me know if you have any further questions.

                    As a side note to the list, I'm still interested in designing and
                    building a car that uses electrolysis to derive hydrogen from water to
                    fire a Tesla engine that acts as a electrical power plant to move a car
                    that operates with DC motors on each wheel. This would optimize the TT
                    by running it at a constant speed and remove the weight of all drive
                    train and reduction gearing from the vehicle. Additionally, the
                    simplicity of the Tesla Turbine engine and the electrical motors puts
                    the automotive technology back in the hands of the public. Also, one of
                    the main problems with using hydrolysis in a conventional auto engine
                    has been corrosion due to water vapor. However, Tesla designed the
                    turbines to operate on Steam, So, the costly process of breaking down an
                    auto engine and coating all the combustion chamber parts with Ceramics
                    is not an issue. However, I have no experience operating a steam
                    turbine...

                    Any comments?

                    ~James Welsh

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Vivek [mailto:vivek_psgim@...]
                    Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 2:17 AM
                    To: Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM
                    Subject: Re: How Can I help


                    I am looking for a Tesla turbine to work on compressed air at 300
                    atmospheres. Can I get the design for the turbine. Some reports say
                    that a 300HP turbine can fit into a hat (yes, that small). Please
                    Comment on this issue.

                    Regards
                    Vivek
                    India

                    --- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM
                    <james.welsh@o...> wrote:
                    > Andy,
                    >
                    > Have you checked out the files posted to the group in the files
                    section?
                    > There's some info there on different calculations and designs that
                    will help
                    > you derive your specifications.
                    >
                    > As you poke around, you will find that Tesla Turbines operate at
                    thousands
                    > of RPM's. One member of this post constructed a pump from old AOL
                    CD's and
                    > reported they withstand to 16,000 rpms! Anyway... check out the
                    files. You
                    > will need to consider disk spacing based on the viscosity of your
                    medium.
                    > From the top of my head, I think I have seen numbers between 7-10
                    thousanths
                    > for air, 17 thousands for water. The working pressure you desire
                    and the
                    > RPMs you will operate at will lend to the determination of your
                    pump size.
                    >
                    > Love to see designs and pics as your project comes alive!!
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Drew Marinich [mailto:twosimple4u77@y...]
                    > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 2:19 PM
                    > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
                    >
                    >
                    > Jim
                    > Hello all, My names Andy Marinich. I'm a toolmaker from Peoria
                    IL. I've
                    > been interested in the idea of using a tesla turbine as a
                    supercharger for
                    > my 88 tbird.
                    > I'm not sure where to begin, or if it's even practical. If anyone
                    can help
                    > with the mechnical side of the problem it would be appreciated. In
                    turn if
                    > I can help with any manufacturing problems let me know. I would
                    like to get
                    > about 10psi or more boost to the old 5.0
                    >
                    > Jim Dooley <LSUman@m...> wrote:
                    >
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