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RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

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  • Jim Dooley
    James, You have grasped it completely. Yes, I have some preliminary concepts together. I am currently working at a university engineering department, and a
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 26, 2004

      James,

       

      You have grasped it completely.  Yes, I have some preliminary concepts together.  I am currently working at a university engineering department, and a few of us have discussed a project.  I have worked with a physics grad student on a novel idea I had for improving the chemical storage battery.  The student is now doing the preliminary research needed to develop the construction method.  I have run the numbers and had several other engineers do the same and the answers all agreed.  We think that we should be able to approach a theoretical maximum battery capacity of 117 amp-hrs per pound of lead using conventional lead acid chemistry.  That should cut the needed weight of storage batteries for a vehicle drastically. 

       

      As to the drive system, I am a firm believer in the series wound DC motor for use in vehicles as opposed to using AC motors.  The speed versus torque characteristics of the series wound DC motor match those required for vehicle propulsion much more closely than does any other type of DC or AC motor.  I believe the best fit is a direct drive wheel mounted motor of the so-called “pancake” design.  These motors deliver maximum torque at stall and need not deliver high RPMs, as wheel speeds at highway speed are not that high.  Also, there is considerable weight savings to be realized using pancake motors on each wheel as compared to using one central drive motor and a mechanical drive train.  Using individual motors does away with the differential, drive shaft, half shafts and CV joints for starters.

       

      My degree is in Electrical Engineering, although I currently work in the Chemical Engineering department.  I have spoken to individuals in the Mechanical Engineering department about a joint project to develop a concept vehicle.  Mechanical Engineering currently has a donated Saturn automobile that we might be able to use as a developmental test bed.  I have one of my undergraduate students currently working with the Mechanical Engineering department to build a demonstration Tesla pump for display at Engineering Day, held each spring here on the campus.  We hope that will open a few eyes to the wonders of Tesla technology.  Hopefully we can then recruit more students and faculty into the vehicle development area.

       

      I have been working for some time with a retired machinist to develop a working Tesla gas turbine to power a high-speed onboard generator.  Progress is being made, but it is slow work.  The turbine section is almost complete and the compressor section is in process right now.  We met last night to lay plans for a testing setup for the compressor section to measure and document operating characteristics.  We could use help from any list members who have knowledge or experience with burner cans and nozzle design.

       

      Jim Dooley

       

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM [mailto:james.welsh@...]
      Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:34 AM
      To: 'TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

       

      Jim,

       

      Interesting…

       

      So are you saying,

       

      Convert a vehicle to use an electrical motor to each wheel (which doubles as a electrical generation device when coasting,) with some onboard storage, supplemented by an onboard generator which would automatically power on during high power output or low battery conditions?

       

      Do you have any preliminary concepts together for your idea?

       

      James Welsh

      MCOM Database Support, OAFS

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:24 PM
      To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

       

      Fred,

       

      You are right, of course.  I suppose I should have elaborated more. I had in mind a combustion turbine of the type used in electrical generation.

       

       My main concern for such a device is in its use in mobile power generation.  A well developed and fairly refined Tesla turbine of rather small size and weight can likely be made to produce all the power needed for hybrid vehicle drive systems at fairly low cost.  I believe those auto manufacturers that are putting out hybrids have the right idea, but are executing it badly.  The only reason they aren’t much better than they are is because they insist on using those highly inefficient reciprocating IC engines.  And I also know the reason the do it is because they have so much invested in the tooling and production lines to manufacture these engines. 

       

      IMHO, vehicle propulsion can be so much better than it currently is if only the mountain of mechanical mumbo-jumbo could be stripped out and replaced with direct electrical drive motors in each wheel.  All the needed drive technology is here today and available for purchase as shelf items. 

       

      Until such time as a breakthrough in energy storage devices is made, the only way to ensure the perception of sufficient range is by the use of onboard charging.  A Tesla turbine-powered DC generator would excel in this application.

       

      I would be interested on the thoughts of others on this list on the subject of hybrid propulsion using Tesla turbine-powered onboard generation.

       

      Jim Dooley

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: fred mcgalliard [mailto:fbmcgalliard@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:26 PM
      To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

       

      Well, remember that there are a number of systems that need heat engines and
      pumps that do not operate at the thin edge of molten metal. A solar furnace,
      trough type, is pressed to get much above 500C, and probably should be
      expected to produce no more than 150C. A heat pump, of course, may be
      operating with delta T of 20C or less. While OTEC systems might want to run
      around 20-30C, there are a number of very practical solar and household
      thermal applications if this system can run with 50C differences. The
      thermodynamic efficiency is not so important as the actual efficiency in
      these applications. If the TT can make 80% we could have a real winner.

      _________________________________________________________________
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    • Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM
      Jim, How exciting... I had been throwing around the idea of building a vegetable oil fueled tesla engine for a motorcycle. In thinking about it, I started to
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 26, 2004

        Jim,

         

        How exciting… I had been throwing around the idea of building a vegetable oil fueled tesla engine for a motorcycle. In thinking about it, I started to wonder about the Tesla engines’ ability to deliver torque over a range of RPM and be able to vary that RPM and I came to the conclusion that it may be better to operate the engine at a set RPM generating electricity, then have the output be a pancake motor constructed right inside the rear wheel. That way, there is no mechanical loss due to flex or heat in the system, other than the loss of the motor itself and the output is varied, not by the speed of the tesla motor, but by the voltage output that is delivered to the wheel. All excess is then output to the recharging system.

         

        The other thing I came up with, was the possibility of a drive generator and an overdrive, or booster generator. The first generator would be designed to output sufficient power to continue highway propulsion. The second generator would only employ during times of high power demand. This could even be turned on or off by the operator, anticipating a high power demand… Let’s race!! (turns on the Power Booster module…) I just don’t know if the added weight of the second generator would be worth carting around. I guess the thing to see would be if the second generator was lower in weight than a larger first generator coupled with the required battery system…??

         

        Anyway, I think that an integrated motor/wheel design could dramatically change the way the rubber meets the road, so to speak. For motorcycle uses, it could definitely serve to lower the center of gravity.

         

        One other thought… I don’t know motors well enough to answer this question, but, wouldn’t you be able to use the motors in forward and reverse, and if so, wouldn’t the drive system also double as the breaking system? Could this reduce the need for a mechanical breaking system? I say reduce, because I wouldn’t want to be at the mercy of gravity and inertia during a total power failure…

         

        I have seen some stuff online about a conversion for your car where you can separate hydrogen from water and use it (hydrogen) on demand. This concept removes the problem of extremely dangerous hydrogen storage tanks. The down side is, it requires costly nickel plating to an existing automotive engine. My idea was to see if this system could be utilized to deliver hydrogen to a specifically designed tesla generator. If I were going to go through the trouble of designing something, I think that a vehicle that runs efficiently on water would be a noble effort…

         

        My coming projects include building a tesla pump driven by an AC motor that I will utilize to hydrostatically drill a drinking water well on my property. I will use what I learn there to build my hydroelectric station that runs off the creek running through my place.

         

        Unfortunately for me, this tesla pump/engine design stuff has been mostly theory for me thus far… but at least it gives me lots to think about!!

         

        Looking forward to hearing your thoughts…

         

        James Welsh

        MCOM Database Support, OAFS

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@...]
        Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 8:34 AM
        To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

         

        James,

         

        You have grasped it completely.  Yes, I have some preliminary concepts together.  I am currently working at a university engineering department, and a few of us have discussed a project.  I have worked with a physics grad student on a novel idea I had for improving the chemical storage battery.  The student is now doing the preliminary research needed to develop the construction method.  I have run the numbers and had several other engineers do the same and the answers all agreed.  We think that we should be able to approach a theoretical maximum battery capacity of 117 amp-hrs per pound of lead using conventional lead acid chemistry.  That should cut the needed weight of storage batteries for a vehicle drastically. 

         

        As to the drive system, I am a firm believer in the series wound DC motor for use in vehicles as opposed to using AC motors.  The speed versus torque characteristics of the series wound DC motor match those required for vehicle propulsion much more closely than does any other type of DC or AC motor.  I believe the best fit is a direct drive wheel mounted motor of the so-called “pancake” design.  These motors deliver maximum torque at stall and need not deliver high RPMs, as wheel speeds at highway speed are not that high.  Also, there is considerable weight savings to be realized using pancake motors on each wheel as compared to using one central drive motor and a mechanical drive train.  Using individual motors does away with the differential, drive shaft, half shafts and CV joints for starters.

         

        My degree is in Electrical Engineering, although I currently work in the Chemical Engineering department.  I have spoken to individuals in the Mechanical Engineering department about a joint project to develop a concept vehicle.  Mechanical Engineering currently has a donated Saturn automobile that we might be able to use as a developmental test bed.  I have one of my undergraduate students currently working with the Mechanical Engineering department to build a demonstration Tesla pump for display at Engineering Day, held each spring here on the campus.  We hope that will open a few eyes to the wonders of Tesla technology.  Hopefully we can then recruit more students and faculty into the vehicle development area.

         

        I have been working for some time with a retired machinist to develop a working Tesla gas turbine to power a high-speed onboard generator.  Progress is being made, but it is slow work.  The turbine section is almost complete and the compressor section is in process right now.  We met last night to lay plans for a testing setup for the compressor section to measure and document operating characteristics.  We could use help from any list members who have knowledge or experience with burner cans and nozzle design.

         

        Jim Dooley

         

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM [mailto:james.welsh@...]
        Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:34 AM
        To: 'TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com'
        Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

         

        Jim,

         

        Interesting…

         

        So are you saying,

         

        Convert a vehicle to use an electrical motor to each wheel (which doubles as a electrical generation device when coasting,) with some onboard storage, supplemented by an onboard generator which would automatically power on during high power output or low battery conditions?

         

        Do you have any preliminary concepts together for your idea?

         

        James Welsh

        MCOM Database Support, OAFS

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:24 PM
        To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

         

        Fred,

         

        You are right, of course.  I suppose I should have elaborated more. I had in mind a combustion turbine of the type used in electrical generation.

         

         My main concern for such a device is in its use in mobile power generation.  A well developed and fairly refined Tesla turbine of rather small size and weight can likely be made to produce all the power needed for hybrid vehicle drive systems at fairly low cost.  I believe those auto manufacturers that are putting out hybrids have the right idea, but are executing it badly.  The only reason they aren’t much better than they are is because they insist on using those highly inefficient reciprocating IC engines.  And I also know the reason the do it is because they have so much invested in the tooling and production lines to manufacture these engines. 

         

        IMHO, vehicle propulsion can be so much better than it currently is if only the mountain of mechanical mumbo-jumbo could be stripped out and replaced with direct electrical drive motors in each wheel.  All the needed drive technology is here today and available for purchase as shelf items. 

         

        Until such time as a breakthrough in energy storage devices is made, the only way to ensure the perception of sufficient range is by the use of onboard charging.  A Tesla turbine-powered DC generator would excel in this application.

         

        I would be interested on the thoughts of others on this list on the subject of hybrid propulsion using Tesla turbine-powered onboard generation.

         

        Jim Dooley

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: fred mcgalliard [mailto:fbmcgalliard@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:26 PM
        To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

         

        Well, remember that there are a number of systems that need heat engines and
        pumps that do not operate at the thin edge of molten metal. A solar furnace,
        trough type, is pressed to get much above 500C, and probably should be
        expected to produce no more than 150C. A heat pump, of course, may be
        operating with delta T of 20C or less. While OTEC systems might want to run
        around 20-30C, there are a number of very practical solar and household
        thermal applications if this system can run with 50C differences. The
        thermodynamic efficiency is not so important as the actual efficiency in
        these applications. If the TT can make 80% we could have a real winner.

        _________________________________________________________________
        Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
        hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/









      • McGalliard, Frederick B
        ... From: Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM [mailto:james.welsh@onizuka.af.mil] I just don t know if the added weight of the second generator would be worth
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 26, 2004
          Message
           
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM [mailto:james.welsh@...]

          I just don’t know if the added weight of the second generator would be worth carting around. 

          If you really want to do this, I recommend looking into using very high quality high field permanent magnets and probably a higher voltage (perhaps around 400V) and electronic controls to bring the overall weight down and the efficiency up.  In a one of, like this, you would probably want to be ready to spend around $1 K on the generator itself.

        • Drew Marinich
          Jim Hello all, My names Andy Marinich. I m a toolmaker from Peoria IL. I ve been interested in the idea of using a tesla turbine as a supercharger for my 88
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 26, 2004
            Jim
               Hello all, My names Andy Marinich.  I'm a toolmaker from Peoria IL.  I've been interested in the idea of using a tesla turbine as a supercharger for my 88 tbird.
            I'm not sure where to begin, or if it's even practical.  If anyone can help with the mechnical side of the problem it would be appreciated.  In turn if I can help with any manufacturing problems let me know.  I would like to get about 10psi or more boost to the old 5.0

            Jim Dooley <LSUman@...> wrote:

            James,

             

            You have grasped it completely.  Yes, I have some preliminary concepts together.  I am currently working at a university engineering department, and a few of us have discussed a project.  I have worked with a physics grad student on a novel idea I had for improving the chemical storage battery.  The student is now doing the preliminary research needed to develop the construction method.  I have run the numbers and had several other engineers do the same and the answers all agreed.  We think that we should be able to approach a theoretical maximum battery capacity of 117 amp-hrs per pound of lead using conventional lead acid chemistry.  That should cut the needed weight of storage batteries for a vehicle drastically. 

             

            As to the drive system, I am a firm believer in the series wound DC motor for use in vehicles as opposed to using AC motors.  The speed versus torque characteristics of the series wound DC motor match those required for vehicle propulsion much more closely than does any other type of DC or AC motor.  I believe the best fit is a direct drive wheel mounted motor of the so-called �pancake� design.  These motors deliver maximum torque at stall and need not deliver high RPMs, as wheel speeds at highway speed are not that high.  Also, there is considerable weight savings to be realized using pancake motors on each wheel as compared to using one central drive motor and a mechanical drive train.  Using individual motors does away with the differential, drive shaft, half shafts and CV joints for starters.

             

            My degree is in Electrical Engineering, although I currently work in the Chemical Engineering department.  I have spoken to individuals in the Mechanical Engineering department about a joint project to develop a concept vehicle.  Mechanical Engineering currently has a donated Saturn automobile that we might be able to use as a developmental test bed.  I have one of my undergraduate students currently working with the Mechanical Engineering department to build a demonstration Tesla pump for display at Engineering Day, held each spring here on the campus.  We hope that will open a few eyes to the wonders of Tesla technology.  Hopefully we can then recruit more students and faculty into the vehicle development area.

             

            I have been working for some time with a retired machinist to develop a working Tesla gas turbine to power a high-speed onboard generator.  Progress is being made, but it is slow work.  The turbine section is almost complete and the compressor section is in process right now.  We met last night to lay plans for a testing setup for the compressor section to measure and document operating characteristics.  We could use help from any list members who have knowledge or experience with burner cans and nozzle design.

             

            Jim Dooley

             

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM [mailto:james.welsh@...]
            Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:34 AM
            To: 'TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com'
            Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

             

            Jim,

             

            Interesting�

             

            So are you saying,

             

            Convert a vehicle to use an electrical motor to each wheel (which doubles as a electrical generation device when coasting,) with some onboard storage, supplemented by an onboard generator which would automatically power on during high power output or low battery conditions?

             

            Do you have any preliminary concepts together for your idea?

             

            James Welsh

            MCOM Database Support, OAFS

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:24 PM
            To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

             

            Fred,

             

            You are right, of course.  I suppose I should have elaborated more. I had in mind a combustion turbine of the type used in electrical generation.

             

             My main concern for such a device is in its use in mobile power generation.  A well developed and fairly refined Tesla turbine of rather small size and weight can likely be made to produce all the power needed for hybrid vehicle drive systems at fairly low cost.  I believe those auto manufacturers that are putting out hybrids have the right idea, but are executing it badly.  The only reason they aren�t much better than they are is because they insist on using those highly inefficient reciprocating IC engines.  And I also know the reason the do it is because they have so much invested in the tooling and production lines to manufacture these engines. 

             

            IMHO, vehicle propulsion can be so much better than it currently is if only the mountain of mechanical mumbo-jumbo could be stripped out and replaced with direct electrical drive motors in each wheel.  All the needed drive technology is here today and available for purchase as shelf items. 

             

            Until such time as a breakthrough in energy storage devices is made, the only way to ensure the perception of sufficient range is by the use of onboard charging.  A Tesla turbine-powered DC generator would excel in this application.

             

            I would be interested on the thoughts of others on this list on the subject of hybrid propulsion using Tesla turbine-powered onboard generation.

             

            Jim Dooley

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: fred mcgalliard [mailto:fbmcgalliard@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:26 PM
            To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

             

            Well, remember that there are a number of systems that need heat engines and
            pumps that do not operate at the thin edge of molten metal. A solar furnace,
            trough type, is pressed to get much above 500C, and probably should be
            expected to produce no more than 150C. A heat pump, of course, may be
            operating with delta T of 20C or less. While OTEC systems might want to run
            around 20-30C, there are a number of very practical solar and household
            thermal applications if this system can run with 50C differences. The
            thermodynamic efficiency is not so important as the actual efficiency in
            these applications. If the TT can make 80% we could have a real winner.

            _________________________________________________________________
            Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
            hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/









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          • Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM
            Andy, Have you checked out the files posted to the group in the files section? There s some info there on different calculations and designs that will help you
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 26, 2004
              Andy,
               
              Have you checked out the files posted to the group in the files section? There's some info there on different calculations and designs that will help you derive your specifications.
               
              As you poke around, you will find that Tesla Turbines operate at thousands of RPM's. One member of this post constructed a pump from old AOL CD's and reported they withstand to 16,000 rpms! Anyway... check out the files. You will need to consider disk spacing based on the viscosity of your medium. From the top of my head, I think I have seen numbers between 7-10 thousanths for air, 17 thousands for water. The working pressure you desire and the RPMs you will operate at will lend to the determination of your pump size.
               
              Love to see designs and pics as your project comes alive!!
               
               
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Drew Marinich [mailto:twosimple4u77@...]
              Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 2:19 PM
              To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

              Jim
                 Hello all, My names Andy Marinich.  I'm a toolmaker from Peoria IL.  I've been interested in the idea of using a tesla turbine as a supercharger for my 88 tbird.
              I'm not sure where to begin, or if it's even practical.  If anyone can help with the mechnical side of the problem it would be appreciated.  In turn if I can help with any manufacturing problems let me know.  I would like to get about 10psi or more boost to the old 5.0

              Jim Dooley <LSUman@...> wrote:

              James,

               

              You have grasped it completely.  Yes, I have some preliminary concepts together.  I am currently working at a university engineering department, and a few of us have discussed a project.  I have worked with a physics grad student on a novel idea I had for improving the chemical storage battery.  The student is now doing the preliminary research needed to develop the construction method.  I have run the numbers and had several other engineers do the same and the answers all agreed.  We think that we should be able to approach a theoretical maximum battery capacity of 117 amp-hrs per pound of lead using conventional lead acid chemistry.  That should cut the needed weight of storage batteries for a vehicle drastically. 

               

              As to the drive system, I am a firm believer in the series wound DC motor for use in vehicles as opposed to using AC motors.  The speed versus torque characteristics of the series wound DC motor match those required for vehicle propulsion much more closely than does any other type of DC or AC motor.  I believe the best fit is a direct drive wheel mounted motor of the so-called "pancake" design.  These motors deliver maximum torque at stall and need not deliver high RPMs, as wheel speeds at highway speed are not that high.  Also, there is considerable weight savings to be realized using pancake motors on each wheel as compared to using one central drive motor and a mechanical drive train.  Using individual motors does away with the differential, drive shaft, half shafts and CV joints for starters.

               

              My degree is in Electrical Engineering, although I currently work in the Chemical Engineering department.  I have spoken to individuals in the Mechanical Engineering department about a joint project to develop a concept vehicle.  Mechanical Engineering currently has a donated Saturn automobile that we might be able to use as a developmental test bed.  I have one of my undergraduate students currently working with the Mechanical Engineering department to build a demonstration Tesla pump for display at Engineering Day, held each spring here on the campus.  We hope that will open a few eyes to the wonders of Tesla technology.  Hopefully we can then recruit more students and faculty into the vehicle development area.

               

              I have been working for some time with a retired machinist to develop a working Tesla gas turbine to power a high-speed onboard generator.  Progress is being made, but it is slow work.  The turbine section is almost complete and the compressor section is in process right now.  We met last night to lay plans for a testing setup for the compressor section to measure and document operating characteristics.  We could use help from any list members who have knowledge or experience with burner cans and nozzle design.

               

              Jim Dooley

               

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM [mailto:jamees.welsh@...]
              Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:34 AM
              To: 'TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com'
              Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

               

              Jim,

               

              Interesting...

               

              So are you saying,

               

              Convert a vehicle to use an electrical motor to each wheel (which doubles as a electrical generation device when coasting,) with some onboard storage, supplemented by an onboard generator which would automatically power on during high power output or low battery conditions?

               

              Do you have any preliminary concepts together for your idea?

               

              James Welsh

              MCOM Database Support, OAFS

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@...]
              Sent:
              Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:24 PM
              To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

               

              Fred,

               

              You are right, of course.  I suppose I should have elaborated more. I had in mind a combustion turbine of the type used in electrical generation.

               

               My main concern for such a device is in its use in mobile power generation.  A well developed and fairly refined Tesla turbine of rather small size and weight can likely be made to produce all the power needed for hybrid vehicle drive systems at fairly low cost.  I believe those auto manufacturers that are putting out hybrids have the right idea, but are executing it badly.  The only reason they aren't much better than they are is because they insist on using those highly inefficient reciprocating IC engines.  And I also know the reason the do it is because they have so much invested in the tooling and production lines to manufacture these engines. 

               

              IMHO, vehicle propulsion can be so much better than it currently is if only the mountain of mechanical mumbo-jumbo could be stripped out and replaced with direct electrical drive motors in each wheel.  All the needed drive technology is here today and available for purchase as shelf items. 

               

              Until such time as a breakthrough in energy storage devices is made, the only way to ensure the perception of sufficient range is by the use of onboard charging.  A Tesla turbine-powered DC generator would excel in this application.

               

              I would be interested on the thoughts of others on this list on the subject of hybrid propulsion using Tesla turbine-powered onboard generation.

               

              Jim Dooley

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: fred mcgalliard [mailto:fbmcgalliard@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:26 PM
              To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help

               

              Well, remember that there are a number of systems that need heat engines and
              pumps that do not operate at the thin edge of molten metal. A solar furnace,
              trough type, is pressed to get much above 500C, and probably should be
              expected to produce no more than 150C. A heat pump, of course, may be
              operating with delta T of 20C or less. While OTEC systems might want to run
              around 20-30C, there are a number of very practical solar and household
              thermal applications if this system can run with 50C differences. The
              thermodynamic efficiency is not so important as the actual efficiency in
              these applications. If the TT can make 80% we could have a real winner.

              _________________________________________________________________
              Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
              hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/









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              Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.

            • hispeed_lodrag
              New to the board, but this thread struck a chord with me as I have had a similar idea floating in my head for awhile. Although I am very interested in BLT
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 31, 2004
                New to the board, but this thread struck a chord with me as I have
                had a similar idea floating in my head for awhile. Although I am
                very interested in BLT technology I think a good start would be to
                develop a system that first utilizes one of the miniature
                conventional gas turbines available on the market first to work out
                the sytem, then potentially incorporate a BLT after the system is
                shown to work. I think that a gas turbine operating at a constant
                speed turning a DC generator would be best. Just my opinion of
                course, but I think that a whole segment of the market is being
                missed by utilizing the current hybrid automotive technologies as
                only a means of attracting "green" consumers. As pointed out, an
                electrical motor has maximum torque at zero RPM...perfect for
                spectacular acceleration!

                A motor at each wheel has been proven in locomotive design and
                application for many years (again due to the massive torque available
                at low RPM) and such a system would offer many benefits in a sports
                car that I can think of right off and very few drawbacks:

                1. Very high power/weight ratio for engine and high speed generator
                can be very small for power ouput.
                2. Elimination of the vast majority of the drive train (even more
                saved weight)
                3. The ability to control each wheel independently - very easy to
                incorporate traction control and ABS (maybe even steering at high
                speeds).
                4. No drive train means that power unit could be mounted at the
                designer's whim to wherever would be convenient for optimum weight
                distribution.
                5. Can run on just about anything, but the current infrastructure
                makes diesel likely the most convenient
                6. A (practical) jet powered car!

                Just imagine the look of confusion on the face of the guy in the
                Corvette when you pull up next to him and that high speed turbine
                whine and hum is eminating from your car. Then imagine his further
                confusion when you accelerate away like a F1 race car at the green
                before he can even engage his clutch.

                Very cool.

                Regards,
                Stephen



                --- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Dooley" <LSUman@m...> wrote:
                > James,
                >
                > You have grasped it completely. Yes, I have some preliminary
                concepts
                > together. I am currently working at a university engineering
                department,
                > and a few of us have discussed a project. I have worked with a
                physics grad
                > student on a novel idea I had for improving the chemical storage
                battery.
                > The student is now doing the preliminary research needed to develop
                the
                > construction method. I have run the numbers and had several other
                engineers
                > do the same and the answers all agreed. We think that we should be
                able to
                > approach a theoretical maximum battery capacity of 117 amp-hrs per
                pound of
                > lead using conventional lead acid chemistry. That should cut the
                needed
                > weight of storage batteries for a vehicle drastically.
                >
                > As to the drive system, I am a firm believer in the series wound DC
                motor
                > for use in vehicles as opposed to using AC motors. The speed
                versus torque
                > characteristics of the series wound DC motor match those required
                for
                > vehicle propulsion much more closely than does any other type of DC
                or AC
                > motor. I believe the best fit is a direct drive wheel mounted
                motor of the
                > so-called "pancake" design. These motors deliver maximum torque at
                stall
                > and need not deliver high RPMs, as wheel speeds at highway speed
                are not
                > that high. Also, there is considerable weight savings to be
                realized using
                > pancake motors on each wheel as compared to using one central drive
                motor
                > and a mechanical drive train. Using individual motors does away
                with the
                > differential, drive shaft, half shafts and CV joints for starters.
                >
                > My degree is in Electrical Engineering, although I currently work
                in the
                > Chemical Engineering department. I have spoken to individuals in
                the
                > Mechanical Engineering department about a joint project to develop
                a concept
                > vehicle. Mechanical Engineering currently has a donated Saturn
                automobile
                > that we might be able to use as a developmental test bed. I have
                one of my
                > undergraduate students currently working with the Mechanical
                Engineering
                > department to build a demonstration Tesla pump for display at
                Engineering
                > Day, held each spring here on the campus. We hope that will open a
                few eyes
                > to the wonders of Tesla technology. Hopefully we can then recruit
                more
                > students and faculty into the vehicle development area.
                >
                > I have been working for some time with a retired machinist to
                develop a
                > working Tesla gas turbine to power a high-speed onboard generator.
                Progress
                > is being made, but it is slow work. The turbine section is almost
                complete
                > and the compressor section is in process right now. We met last
                night to
                > lay plans for a testing setup for the compressor section to measure
                and
                > document operating characteristics. We could use help from any
                list members
                > who have knowledge or experience with burner cans and nozzle design.
                >
                > Jim Dooley
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM [mailto:james.welsh@o...]
                > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:34 AM
                > To: 'TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com'
                > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
                >
                > Jim,
                >
                > Interesting…
                >
                > So are you saying,
                >
                > Convert a vehicle to use an electrical motor to each wheel (which
                doubles as
                > a electrical generation device when coasting,) with some onboard
                storage,
                > supplemented by an onboard generator which would automatically
                power on
                > during high power output or low battery conditions?
                >
                > Do you have any preliminary concepts together for your idea?
                >
                > James Welsh
                > MCOM Database Support, OAFS
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@m...]
                > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:24 PM
                > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
                >
                > Fred,
                >
                > You are right, of course. I suppose I should have elaborated more.
                I had in
                > mind a combustion turbine of the type used in electrical generation.
                >
                > My main concern for such a device is in its use in mobile power
                generation.
                > A well developed and fairly refined Tesla turbine of rather small
                size and
                > weight can likely be made to produce all the power needed for
                hybrid vehicle
                > drive systems at fairly low cost. I believe those auto
                manufacturers that
                > are putting out hybrids have the right idea, but are executing it
                badly.
                > The only reason they aren't much better than they are is because
                they insist
                > on using those highly inefficient reciprocating IC engines. And I
                also know
                > the reason the do it is because they have so much invested in the
                tooling
                > and production lines to manufacture these engines.
                >
                > IMHO, vehicle propulsion can be so much better than it currently is
                if only
                > the mountain of mechanical mumbo-jumbo could be stripped out and
                replaced
                > with direct electrical drive motors in each wheel. All the needed
                drive
                > technology is here today and available for purchase as shelf items.
                >
                > Until such time as a breakthrough in energy storage devices is
                made, the
                > only way to ensure the perception of sufficient range is by the use
                of
                > onboard charging. A Tesla turbine-powered DC generator would excel
                in this
                > application.
                >
                > I would be interested on the thoughts of others on this list on the
                subject
                > of hybrid propulsion using Tesla turbine-powered onboard generation.
                >
                > Jim Dooley
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: fred mcgalliard [mailto:fbmcgalliard@h...]
                > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:26 PM
                > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
                >
                > Well, remember that there are a number of systems that need heat
                engines and
                > pumps that do not operate at the thin edge of molten metal. A solar
                furnace,
                > trough type, is pressed to get much above 500C, and probably should
                be
                > expected to produce no more than 150C. A heat pump, of course, may
                be
                > operating with delta T of 20C or less. While OTEC systems might
                want to run
                > around 20-30C, there are a number of very practical solar and
                household
                > thermal applications if this system can run with 50C differences.
                The
                > thermodynamic efficiency is not so important as the actual
                efficiency in
                > these applications. If the TT can make 80% we could have a real
                winner.
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
                it's FREE!
                > ht http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > ADVERTISEMENT
                > click here
                >
                <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129k46759/M=298184.5285298.6392945.300117
                6/D=gr
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                oups/S=1705083412:HM/EXP=1093617255/A=2319501/R=0/SIG=11tq0u909/*http:
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                > netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185353&partid=5285298>
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                >
                > _____
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                >
                > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                subject=Unsubscribe>
                >
                > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                of
                > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
              • Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM
                Jim, I just had a chance to re-read your post. I d be interested in seeing the demonstration on engineering day, what school is it and where are you located?
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 31, 2004
                  Jim,

                  I just had a chance to re-read your post. I'd be interested in seeing the demonstration on engineering day, what school is it and where are you located?

                  Stephen,

                  you read my mind. That's what I'm talking about.

                  All,

                  The other thing I have been thinking lately regarding the Tesla engine and Automotive transportation, is that if I were making a new vehicle from scratch, I would be able to make it anyway I wanted. For example, if I wanted to change the way the car handles by giving it a lower center of gravity, I could change the tesla engine into a small precision engine that would actually be tubes running along the bottom of the vehicle. Each tube would be about 3-4" in diameter laid side by side. These tubes would not only make up the chassis of the vehicle, but also provide chambers for bladeless discs and fuel mixture. This could be used to make multiple stages.

                  The German V-2 rocket nozzles were constructed from many tubes laid side by side and formed into the shape of the nozzle. They would then flow the fuel into the tubes. As the rocket nozzle would fire, the incoming fuel would flow through the nozzle jacket. Not only did this accomplish cooling the nozzle for longer nozzle life and accurate trajectory, but it also pre-heated the fuel for improved combustion. This same type of technology could be used by adding copper fuel supply line runs along the sides of the parallel 4" tubes. but I'm just daydreaming and haven't' done any calculations... so don't listen to me!!

                  I do like the idea of the low center of gravity and completely new engine type design. Perhaps I should do some drawings so all of this makes more sense...

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: hispeed_lodrag [mailto:hispeed_lodrag@...]
                  Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 4:23 PM
                  To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Re: How Can I help




                  New to the board, but this thread struck a chord with me as I have
                  had a similar idea floating in my head for awhile. Although I am
                  very interested in BLT technology I think a good start would be to
                  develop a system that first utilizes one of the miniature
                  conventional gas turbines available on the market first to work out
                  the sytem, then potentially incorporate a BLT after the system is
                  shown to work. I think that a gas turbine operating at a constant
                  speed turning a DC generator would be best. Just my opinion of
                  course, but I think that a whole segment of the market is being
                  missed by utilizing the current hybrid automotive technologies as
                  only a means of attracting "green" consumers. As pointed out, an
                  electrical motor has maximum torque at zero RPM...perfect for
                  spectacular acceleration!

                  A motor at each wheel has been proven in locomotive design and
                  application for many years (again due to the massive torque available
                  at low RPM) and such a system would offer many benefits in a sports
                  car that I can think of right off and very few drawbacks:

                  1. Very high power/weight ratio for engine and high speed generator
                  can be very small for power ouput.
                  2. Elimination of the vast majority of the drive train (even more
                  saved weight)
                  3. The ability to control each wheel independently - very easy to
                  incorporate traction control and ABS (maybe even steering at high
                  speeds).
                  4. No drive train means that power unit could be mounted at the
                  designer's whim to wherever would be convenient for optimum weight
                  distribution.
                  5. Can run on just about anything, but the current infrastructure
                  makes diesel likely the most convenient
                  6. A (practical) jet powered car!

                  Just imagine the look of confusion on the face of the guy in the
                  Corvette when you pull up next to him and that high speed turbine
                  whine and hum is eminating from your car. Then imagine his further
                  confusion when you accelerate away like a F1 race car at the green
                  before he can even engage his clutch.

                  Very cool.

                  Regards,
                  Stephen



                  --- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Dooley" <LSUman@m...> wrote:
                  > James,
                  >
                  > You have grasped it completely. Yes, I have some preliminary
                  concepts
                  > together. I am currently working at a university engineering
                  department,
                  > and a few of us have discussed a project. I have worked with a
                  physics grad
                  > student on a novel idea I had for improving the chemical storage
                  battery.
                  > The student is now doing the preliminary research needed to develop
                  the
                  > construction method. I have run the numbers and had several other
                  engineers
                  > do the same and the answers all agreed. We think that we should be
                  able to
                  > approach a theoretical maximum battery capacity of 117 amp-hrs per
                  pound of
                  > lead using conventional lead acid chemistry. That should cut the
                  needed
                  > weight of storage batteries for a vehicle drastically.
                  >
                  > As to the drive system, I am a firm believer in the series wound DC
                  motor
                  > for use in vehicles as opposed to using AC motors. The speed
                  versus torque
                  > characteristics of the series wound DC motor match those required
                  for
                  > vehicle propulsion much more closely than does any other type of DC
                  or AC
                  > motor. I believe the best fit is a direct drive wheel mounted
                  motor of the
                  > so-called "pancake" design. These motors deliver maximum torque at
                  stall
                  > and need not deliver high RPMs, as wheel speeds at highway speed
                  are not
                  > that high. Also, there is considerable weight savings to be
                  realized using
                  > pancake motors on each wheel as compared to using one central drive
                  motor
                  > and a mechanical drive train. Using individual motors does away
                  with the
                  > differential, drive shaft, half shafts and CV joints for starters.
                  >
                  > My degree is in Electrical Engineering, although I currently work
                  in the
                  > Chemical Engineering department. I have spoken to individuals in
                  the
                  > Mechanical Engineering department about a joint project to develop
                  a concept
                  > vehicle. Mechanical Engineering currently has a donated Saturn
                  automobile
                  > that we might be able to use as a developmental test bed. I have
                  one of my
                  > undergraduate students currently working with the Mechanical
                  Engineering
                  > department to build a demonstration Tesla pump for display at
                  Engineering
                  > Day, held each spring here on the campus. We hope that will open a
                  few eyes
                  > to the wonders of Tesla technology. Hopefully we can then recruit
                  more
                  > students and faculty into the vehicle development area.
                  >
                  > I have been working for some time with a retired machinist to
                  develop a
                  > working Tesla gas turbine to power a high-speed onboard generator.
                  Progress
                  > is being made, but it is slow work. The turbine section is almost
                  complete
                  > and the compressor section is in process right now. We met last
                  night to
                  > lay plans for a testing setup for the compressor section to measure
                  and
                  > document operating characteristics. We could use help from any
                  list members
                  > who have knowledge or experience with burner cans and nozzle design.
                  >
                  > Jim Dooley
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM [mailto:james.welsh@o...]
                  > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:34 AM
                  > To: 'TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com'
                  > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
                  >
                  > Jim,
                  >
                  > Interesting...
                  >
                  > So are you saying,
                  >
                  > Convert a vehicle to use an electrical motor to each wheel (which
                  doubles as
                  > a electrical generation device when coasting,) with some onboard
                  storage,
                  > supplemented by an onboard generator which would automatically
                  power on
                  > during high power output or low battery conditions?
                  >
                  > Do you have any preliminary concepts together for your idea?
                  >
                  > James Welsh
                  > MCOM Database Support, OAFS
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@m...]
                  > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:24 PM
                  > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
                  >
                  > Fred,
                  >
                  > You are right, of course. I suppose I should have elaborated more.
                  I had in
                  > mind a combustion turbine of the type used in electrical generation.
                  >
                  > My main concern for such a device is in its use in mobile power
                  generation.
                  > A well developed and fairly refined Tesla turbine of rather small
                  size and
                  > weight can likely be made to produce all the power needed for
                  hybrid vehicle
                  > drive systems at fairly low cost. I believe those auto
                  manufacturers that
                  > are putting out hybrids have the right idea, but are executing it
                  badly.
                  > The only reason they aren't much better than they are is because
                  they insist
                  > on using those highly inefficient reciprocating IC engines. And I
                  also know
                  > the reason the do it is because they have so much invested in the
                  tooling
                  > and production lines to manufacture these engines.
                  >
                  > IMHO, vehicle propulsion can be so much better than it currently is
                  if only
                  > the mountain of mechanical mumbo-jumbo could be stripped out and
                  replaced
                  > with direct electrical drive motors in each wheel. All the needed
                  drive
                  > technology is here today and available for purchase as shelf items.
                  >
                  > Until such time as a breakthrough in energy storage devices is
                  made, the
                  > only way to ensure the perception of sufficient range is by the use
                  of
                  > onboard charging. A Tesla turbine-powered DC generator would excel
                  in this
                  > application.
                  >
                  > I would be interested on the thoughts of others on this list on the
                  subject
                  > of hybrid propulsion using Tesla turbine-powered onboard generation.
                  >
                  > Jim Dooley
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: fred mcgalliard [mailto:fbmcgalliard@h...]
                  > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:26 PM
                  > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
                  >
                  > Well, remember that there are a number of systems that need heat
                  engines and
                  > pumps that do not operate at the thin edge of molten metal. A solar
                  furnace,
                  > trough type, is pressed to get much above 500C, and probably should
                  be
                  > expected to produce no more than 150C. A heat pump, of course, may
                  be
                  > operating with delta T of 20C or less. While OTEC systems might
                  want to run
                  > around 20-30C, there are a number of very practical solar and
                  household
                  > thermal applications if this system can run with 50C differences.
                  The
                  > thermodynamic efficiency is not so important as the actual
                  efficiency in
                  > these applications. If the TT can make 80% we could have a real
                  winner.
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
                  > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
                  it's FREE!
                  > ht http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > click here
                  >
                  <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129k46759/M=298184.5285298.6392945.300117
                  6/D=gr
                  >
                  oups/S=1705083412:HM/EXP=1093617255/A=2319501/R=0/SIG=11tq0u909/*http:
                  //www.
                  > netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185353&partid=5285298>
                  >
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TeslaTurbine/
                  >
                  > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > TeslaTurbine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:TeslaTurbine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
                  subject=Unsubscribe>
                  >
                  > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                  of
                  > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .







                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • AE Hill
                  Good nu-year ya all! I’ve been visiting my mom in Texas. Speaking of automotive concepts… I too, have long considered the concepts used by locomotives. The
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 1, 2005

                    Good nu-year ya all!

                     

                    I�ve been visiting my mom in Texas .

                     

                    Speaking of automotive concepts�

                    I too, have long considered the concepts used by locomotives.

                    The driving habits of the �normal� driver wastes lots of energy.

                    People like fast starts, and fast stops.

                    They also like high speed long-distance driving, but typically spend much more of the world�s resources with �city� driving.

                    High-torque motors in each wheel seems great,
                    drive-trains are relatively inefficient. 

                     

                    So, let�s not forget another [even more influential] Tesla concept.

                    Tesla [with Westinghouse] battled for years in the public forums the pros and cons of his Alternating Current concepts with the dim-witted Edison [with General Electric] who supported Direct Current power systems.

                     

                    The real crux of the matter turned out to be transmission loses at low voltages.

                    The higher the voltages, the less energy is lost over the same power transmission lines.

                     Alternating Current could use transformers to raise the voltages at the power generating site and more transformers on the receiving end to lower the voltages [for safety].

                     

                    In a car the transmission line is �short.� The problem is that the power is �high.�

                    A common example happens to be the transmission lines going to the normal automobile starter. We all know they have to about 1/2 inch diameter wire. Why? The power to turn over a infernal [internal] combustion engine is �high.� [The cars of the future will go 48 volts to mitigate this circumstance.] At 12 volts it takes about 100 amps to get the job done. Power equals voltage times current, so that would be about 1.2kW. From a practical point of view, it is the 100 amps that determines the wire-gage.

                    [At 48 volts, the same power only needs 25 amps of current and much smaller wire]

                     

                    The size of the wire is important, but the contact resistance is also important.

                    The higher the current, the more heat any contact resistance will be. Contact resistance is important at all connections from the power source to motors.

                     

                    Another major consideration would be the price of the finial current controlling device. Higher current ratings mean higher heat dissipations and higher prices.

                     

                    Then, very importantly, the gage of the wire needed for the motor windings depends on the current [because of heat generated] not the power. At the same power, the higher the voltage, the lower the current, and the smaller the wire has to be for the motor windings.

                     

                    In the physical world, nothing starts instantaneously, nor does anything stop instantaneously. Direct Current suffer from this conceptual flaw. As the motor turns, it tries to switch on and off instantaneously.

                     

                    With Tesla�s concept, the power of the motor shifts using a sinusoidal transfer function. To increase torque, all the motor designer has to do is increase the number poles. This increases the complexity, but adds to the redundancy [and therefore increases the reliability] of the motor.

                     

                    In review, Tesla�s Alternating Current concept can more readily generate higher sinusoidal voltages and therefore transfer power more efficiently to the motor while using more cost effective controlling components.

                     

                    As far as �normal drivers� go, another popular craze today is �RV� abilities.

                    Also, let�s not forget the importance vehicle suspension and road clearance.

                    The motor-in-the-wheel idea will allow the suspension to easily clear very impressive obstacles without drive shaft problems.

                     

                    What do ya think?

                     

                      Hill



                    Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM <james.welsh@...> wrote:

                    Jim,

                    I just had a chance to re-read your post. I'd be interested in seeing the demonstration on engineering day, what school is it and where are you located?

                    Stephen,

                    you read my mind. That's what I'm talking about.

                    All,

                    The other thing I have been thinking lately regarding the Tesla engine and Automotive transportation, is that if I were making a new vehicle from scratch, I would be able to make it anyway I wanted. For example, if I wanted to change the way the car handles by giving it a lower center of gravity, I could change the tesla engine into a small precision engine that would actually be tubes running along the bottom of the vehicle. Each tube would be about 3-4" in diameter laid side by side. These tubes would not only make up the chassis of the vehicle, but also provide chambers for bladeless discs and fuel mixture. This could be used to make multiple stages.

                    The German V-2 rocket nozzles were constructed from many tubes laid side by side and formed into the shape of the nozzle. They would then flow the fuel into the tubes. As the rocket nozzle would fire, the incoming fuel would flow through the nozzle jacket. Not only did this accomplish cooling the nozzle for longer nozzle life and accurate trajectory, but it also pre-heated the fuel for improved combustion. This same type of technology could be used by adding copper fuel supply line runs along the sides of the parallel 4" tubes. but I'm just daydreaming and haven't' done any calculations... so don't listen to me!!

                    I do like the idea of the low center of gravity and completely new engine type design. Perhaps I should do some drawings so all of this makes more sense...

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: hispeed_lodrag [mailto:hispeed_lodrag@...]
                    Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 4:23 PM
                    To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Re: How Can I help




                    New to the board, but this thread struck a chord with me as I have
                    had a similar idea floating in my head for awhile.  Although I am
                    very interested in BLT technology I think a good start would be to
                    develop a system that first utilizes one of the miniature
                    conventional gas turbines available on the market first to work out
                    the sytem, then potentially incorporate a BLT after the system is
                    shown to work.  I think that a gas turbine operating at a constant
                    speed turning a DC generator would be best.  Just my opinion of
                    course, but I think that a whole segment of the market is being
                    missed by utilizing the current hybrid automotive technologies as
                    only a means of attracting "green" consumers.  As pointed out, an
                    electrical motor has maximum torque at zero RPM...perfect for
                    spectacular acceleration!

                    A motor at each wheel has been proven in locomotive design and
                    application for many years (again due to the massive torque available
                    at low RPM) and such a system would offer many benefits in a sports
                    car that I can think of right off and very few drawbacks:

                    1.  Very high power/weight ratio for engine and high speed generator
                    can be very small for power ouput.
                    2.  Elimination of the vast majority of the drive train (even more
                    saved weight)
                    3.  The ability to control each wheel independently - very easy to
                    incorporate traction control and ABS (maybe even steering at high
                    speeds).
                    4.  No drive train means that power unit could be mounted at the
                    designer's whim to wherever would be convenient for optimum weight
                    distribution.
                    5. Can run on just about anything, but the current infrastructure
                    makes diesel likely the most convenient
                    6.  A (practical) jet powered car!

                    Just imagine the look of confusion on the face of the guy in the
                    Corvette when you pull up next to him and that high speed turbine
                    whine and hum is eminating from your car.  Then imagine his further
                    confusion when you accelerate away like a F1 race car at the green
                    before he can even engage his clutch.

                    Very cool.

                    Regards,
                    Stephen



                    --- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Dooley" <LSUman@m...> wrote:
                    > James,
                    >
                    > You have grasped it completely.  Yes, I have some preliminary
                    concepts
                    > together.  I am currently working at a university engineering
                    department,
                    > and a few of us have discussed a project.  I have worked with a
                    physics grad
                    > student on a novel idea I had for improving the chemical storage
                    battery.
                    > The student is now doing the preliminary research needed to develop
                    the
                    > construction method.  I have run the numbers and had several other
                    engineers
                    > do the same and the answers all agreed.  We think that we should be
                    able to
                    > approach a theoretical maximum battery capacity of 117 amp-hrs per
                    pound of
                    > lead using conventional lead acid chemistry.  That should cut the
                    needed
                    > weight of storage batteries for a vehicle drastically.
                    >
                    > As to the drive system, I am a firm believer in the series wound DC
                    motor
                    > for use in vehicles as opposed to using AC motors.  The speed
                    versus torque
                    > characteristics of the series wound DC motor match those required
                    for
                    > vehicle propulsion much more closely than does any other type of DC
                    or AC
                    > motor.  I believe the best fit is a direct drive wheel mounted
                    motor of the
                    > so-called "pancake" design.  These motors deliver maximum torque at
                    stall
                    > and need not deliver high RPMs, as wheel speeds at highway speed
                    are not
                    > that high.  Also, there is considerable weight savings to be
                    realized using
                    > pancake motors on each wheel as compared to using one central drive
                    motor
                    > and a mechanical drive train.  Using individual motors does away
                    with the
                    > differential, drive shaft, half shafts and CV joints for starters.
                    >
                    > My degree is in Electrical Engineering, although I currently work
                    in the
                    > Chemical Engineering department.  I have spoken to individuals in
                    the
                    > Mechanical Engineering department about a joint project to develop
                    a concept
                    > vehicle.  Mechanical Engineering currently has a donated Saturn
                    automobile
                    > that we might be able to use as a developmental test bed.  I have
                    one of my
                    > undergraduate students currently working with the Mechanical
                    Engineering
                    > department to build a demonstration Tesla pump for display at
                    Engineering
                    > Day, held each spring here on the campus.  We hope that will open a
                    few eyes
                    > to the wonders of Tesla technology.  Hopefully we can then recruit
                    more
                    > students and faculty into the vehicle development area.
                    >
                    > I have been working for some time with a retired machinist to
                    develop a
                    > working Tesla gas turbine to power a high-speed onboard generator. 
                    Progress
                    > is being made, but it is slow work.  The turbine section is almost
                    complete
                    > and the compressor section is in process right now.  We met last
                    night to
                    > lay plans for a testing setup for the compressor section to measure
                    and
                    > document operating characteristics.  We could use help from any
                    list members
                    > who have knowledge or experience with burner cans and nozzle design.
                    >
                    > Jim Dooley
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM [mailto:james.welsh@o...]
                    > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:34 AM
                    > To: 'TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com'
                    > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
                    >
                    > Jim,
                    >
                    > Interesting...
                    >
                    > So are you saying,
                    >
                    > Convert a vehicle to use an electrical motor to each wheel (which
                    doubles as
                    > a electrical generation device when coasting,) with some onboard
                    storage,
                    > supplemented by an onboard generator which would automatically
                    power on
                    > during high power output or low battery conditions?
                    >
                    > Do you have any preliminary concepts together for your idea?
                    >
                    > James Welsh
                    > MCOM Database Support, OAFS
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Jim Dooley [mailto:LSUman@m...]
                    > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:24 PM
                    > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
                    >
                    > Fred,
                    >
                    > You are right, of course.  I suppose I should have elaborated more.
                    I had in
                    > mind a combustion turbine of the type used in electrical generation.
                    >
                    >  My main concern for such a device is in its use in mobile power
                    generation.
                    > A well developed and fairly refined Tesla turbine of rather small
                    size and
                    > weight can likely be made to produce all the power needed for
                    hybrid vehicle
                    > drive systems at fairly low cost.  I believe those auto
                    manufacturers that
                    > are putting out hybrids have the right idea, but are executing it
                    badly.
                    > The only reason they aren't much better than they are is because
                    they insist
                    > on using those highly inefficient reciprocating IC engines.  And I
                    also know
                    > the reason the do it is because they have so much invested in the
                    tooling
                    > and production lines to manufacture these engines.
                    >
                    > IMHO, vehicle propulsion can be so much better than it currently is
                    if only
                    > the mountain of mechanical mumbo-jumbo could be stripped out and
                    replaced
                    > with direct electrical drive motors in each wheel.  All the needed
                    drive
                    > technology is here today and available for purchase as shelf items.
                    >
                    > Until such time as a breakthrough in energy storage devices is
                    made, the
                    > only way to ensure the perception of sufficient range is by the use
                    of
                    > onboard charging.  A Tesla turbine-powered DC generator would excel
                    in this
                    > application.
                    >
                    > I would be interested on the thoughts of others on this list on the
                    subject
                    > of hybrid propulsion using Tesla turbine-powered onboard generation.
                    >
                    > Jim Dooley
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: fred mcgalliard [mailto:fbmcgalliard@h...]
                    > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:26 PM
                    > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
                    >
                    > Well, remember that there are a number of systems that need heat
                    engines and
                    > pumps that do not operate at the thin edge of molten metal. A solar
                    furnace,
                    > trough type, is pressed to get much above 500C, and probably should
                    be
                    > expected to produce no more than 150C. A heat pump, of course, may
                    be
                    > operating with delta T of 20C or less. While OTEC systems might
                    want to run
                    > around 20-30C, there are a number of very practical solar and
                    household
                    > thermal applications if this system can run with 50C differences.
                    The
                    > thermodynamic efficiency is not so important as the actual
                    efficiency in
                    > these applications. If the TT can make 80% we could have a real
                    winner.
                    >
                    >


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                  • Jim
                    to which post are you refering? i am located in tx.just south of dallas.
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 2, 2005
                      to which post are you refering?
                      i am located in tx.just south of dallas.
                    • Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM
                      I m assuming you are responding to my mail... I was referring to the post where you mentioned the engineering day. It would be cool to come see the
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 2, 2005
                        I'm assuming you are responding to my mail... I was referring to the
                        post where you mentioned the engineering day. It would be cool to come
                        see the demonstration, but I am in California...

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Jim [mailto:sabredrivr@...]
                        Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 3:05 AM
                        To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Re: How Can I help



                        to which post are you refering?
                        i am located in tx.just south of dallas.






                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • hispeed_lodrag
                        Lee, I haven t worked with the small turbines much myself, but am familiar with them through casual research and having observed some of the smaller ones fly
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 11, 2005
                          Lee,

                          I haven't worked with the small turbines much myself, but am familiar
                          with them through casual research and having observed some of the
                          smaller ones fly in radio controlled jet aircraft (very impressive by
                          the way). I know that there is a growing interest in using these
                          types of gas turbines for remote power generation and I'm sure that
                          someone out there has devised a muffling system for this type of
                          application. Try a Google search for this application and see what
                          comes up! I'm sure that there is something documented out there.

                          Stephen

                          --- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, "lee B" <leebell@l...> wrote:
                          > Stephen,
                          > I was wondering if you know, I don't , do they (meaning people who
                          make gas turbines) have any way of muffling those things down so the
                          whine isn't so loud?
                          > Otherwise that sounds like a good idea to me. I was thinking of
                          getting 2-4 of those electronic brushless motors that are built
                          into bike wheels and mounting them on something like one of
                          the "rhodes cars" and then use batteries/gas generator to power
                          them . With a small shell body the electric 4 wheeler would be a good
                          cheap transportation. I ride a recumbent trike a lot but it would be
                          nice to get out of the weather (if designed right, my idea would have
                          pedals too) With the same type motors but bigger (I know they are
                          made in a number of sizes) and using motorcycle wheels a version
                          with what you are talking about with a small gas turbine would be
                          even better... it could be a "veggie car" too if it would run on
                          WVO. : o ) You could still have a high hp versus weight ratio
                          especially if you used a couple of batts for just acceleration amps
                          assist.
                          >
                          > Lee B
                          >
                          > Alright, now question for everybody else.... how big would a tesla
                          turbine running on fuel have to be to run a gen/alt capable of
                          putting out enough current to pump 60 amps at 220 v ? (20hp?) .hmmm
                          maybe time to do some research again . I'm a newbie to this stuff too-
                          I'm just starting a air turbine with harddisk platters - still
                          making inserts.
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: hispeed_lodrag
                          > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 7:22 PM
                          > Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Re: How Can I help
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > New to the board, but this thread struck a chord with me as I
                          have
                          > had a similar idea floating in my head for awhile. Although I am
                          > very interested in BLT technology I think a good start would be
                          to
                          > develop a system that first utilizes one of the miniature
                          > conventional gas turbines available on the market first to work
                          out
                          > the sytem, then potentially incorporate a BLT after the system is
                          > shown to work. I think that a gas turbine operating at a
                          constant
                          > speed turning a DC generator would be best. Just my opinion of
                          > course, but I think that a whole segment of the market is being
                          > missed by utilizing the current hybrid automotive technologies as
                          > only a means of attracting "green" consumers. As pointed out, an
                          > electrical motor has maximum torque at zero RPM...perfect for
                          > spectacular acceleration!
                          >
                          > A motor at each wheel has been proven in locomotive design and
                          > application for many years (again due to the massive torque
                          available
                          > at low RPM) and such a system would offer many benefits in a
                          sports
                          > car that I can think of right off and very few drawbacks:
                          >
                          > 1. Very high power/weight ratio for engine and high speed
                          generator
                          > can be very small for power ouput.
                          > 2. Elimination of the vast majority of the drive train (even
                          more
                          > saved weight)
                          > 3. The ability to control each wheel independently - very easy
                          to
                          > incorporate traction control and ABS (maybe even steering at high
                          > speeds).
                          > 4. No drive train means that power unit could be mounted at the
                          > designer's whim to wherever would be convenient for optimum
                          weight
                          > distribution.
                          > 5. Can run on just about anything, but the current infrastructure
                          > makes diesel likely the most convenient
                          > 6. A (practical) jet powered car!
                          >
                          > Just imagine the look of confusion on the face of the guy in the
                          > Corvette when you pull up next to him and that high speed turbine
                          > whine and hum is eminating from your car. Then imagine his
                          further
                          > confusion when you accelerate away like a F1 race car at the
                          green
                          > before he can even engage his clutch.
                          >
                          > Very cool.
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          > Stephen
                        • Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM
                          Vivek, In 1906 Nikola Tesla created the engine that was touted as the power house in a hat. It weighed less than fifty pounds and was approximately 18 inches
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 20, 2005
                            Vivek,

                            In 1906 Nikola Tesla created the engine that was touted as the "power
                            house in a hat." It weighed less than fifty pounds and was approximately
                            18 inches wide. With some development, a similar model operating at
                            16,000 RPMs generated 200 HP. I don't know about 300HP, but it has been
                            a long time since then and perhaps enough has been learned about them
                            since then to increase the efficiency. I do know that 200 HP has been
                            achieved, referencing "Tesla, master of lightning" by Margaret Cheney &
                            Robert Uth, ISBN 1-5866-3187-X.

                            I also purchased an interesting book recently that is a compendium of
                            all Tesla Patents. If you are interested in that, let me know and I'll
                            give you the ISBN for that.

                            As for designs, there should be some files posted to the yahoo group
                            stating design characteristics and other operational reviews. If you
                            have difficulty, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

                            There are a lot of factors that determine design, but most are
                            determined by your usage. Will you be using steam or some other prime
                            mover? Will you be driving it or using it to drive? The heart of the
                            Tesla machine is the bladeless disk, they can drive a fluid or be
                            driven. The heat that the disks have to withstand determines that
                            material that you will be using. Also, since the disks spin at great
                            speeds, centrifugal forces can warp the disks significantly if the metal
                            is too soft. When calculating this, don't forget that the disks will be
                            under heat, so the elasticity of the metal is not calculated at room
                            temperature, but at the turbine operating temp.

                            Another thing that helps flush out your design, is knowing what medium
                            you are moving. The viscosity of the fluid or gas determines the
                            separation of the disks. EG, air is less viscous, so your disk
                            separation would be less than .010" Whereas separation for water would
                            be closer to .017".

                            I hope that helps.

                            Let me know if you have any further questions.

                            As a side note to the list, I'm still interested in designing and
                            building a car that uses electrolysis to derive hydrogen from water to
                            fire a Tesla engine that acts as a electrical power plant to move a car
                            that operates with DC motors on each wheel. This would optimize the TT
                            by running it at a constant speed and remove the weight of all drive
                            train and reduction gearing from the vehicle. Additionally, the
                            simplicity of the Tesla Turbine engine and the electrical motors puts
                            the automotive technology back in the hands of the public. Also, one of
                            the main problems with using hydrolysis in a conventional auto engine
                            has been corrosion due to water vapor. However, Tesla designed the
                            turbines to operate on Steam, So, the costly process of breaking down an
                            auto engine and coating all the combustion chamber parts with Ceramics
                            is not an issue. However, I have no experience operating a steam
                            turbine...

                            Any comments?

                            ~James Welsh

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Vivek [mailto:vivek_psgim@...]
                            Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 2:17 AM
                            To: Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM
                            Subject: Re: How Can I help


                            I am looking for a Tesla turbine to work on compressed air at 300
                            atmospheres. Can I get the design for the turbine. Some reports say
                            that a 300HP turbine can fit into a hat (yes, that small). Please
                            Comment on this issue.

                            Regards
                            Vivek
                            India

                            --- In TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com, Welsh James E Contr 21SOPS/MCOM
                            <james.welsh@o...> wrote:
                            > Andy,
                            >
                            > Have you checked out the files posted to the group in the files
                            section?
                            > There's some info there on different calculations and designs that
                            will help
                            > you derive your specifications.
                            >
                            > As you poke around, you will find that Tesla Turbines operate at
                            thousands
                            > of RPM's. One member of this post constructed a pump from old AOL
                            CD's and
                            > reported they withstand to 16,000 rpms! Anyway... check out the
                            files. You
                            > will need to consider disk spacing based on the viscosity of your
                            medium.
                            > From the top of my head, I think I have seen numbers between 7-10
                            thousanths
                            > for air, 17 thousands for water. The working pressure you desire
                            and the
                            > RPMs you will operate at will lend to the determination of your
                            pump size.
                            >
                            > Love to see designs and pics as your project comes alive!!
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Drew Marinich [mailto:twosimple4u77@y...]
                            > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 2:19 PM
                            > To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: RE: [TeslaTurbine] How Can I help
                            >
                            >
                            > Jim
                            > Hello all, My names Andy Marinich. I'm a toolmaker from Peoria
                            IL. I've
                            > been interested in the idea of using a tesla turbine as a
                            supercharger for
                            > my 88 tbird.
                            > I'm not sure where to begin, or if it's even practical. If anyone
                            can help
                            > with the mechnical side of the problem it would be appreciated. In
                            turn if
                            > I can help with any manufacturing problems let me know. I would
                            like to get
                            > about 10psi or more boost to the old 5.0
                            >
                            > Jim Dooley <LSUman@m...> wrote:
                            >
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.