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Titanium Disks

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  • Kent L Aldershof
    Fellow TT enthusiasts, It has long been my view that construction materials are critical to the performance and success of the Tesla Turbine. The most
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 17, 1999
      Fellow TT enthusiasts,

      It has long been my view that construction materials are critical to the
      performance and success of the Tesla Turbine.

      The most important of these is the disks themselves -- although with the
      importance of bearings, shafts, nozzles, and other components that may be
      like claiming that one's heart is more important than one's lungs. You
      are not going to perform very well or last very long if either of those
      is malfunctioning.

      Much of the TT literature that I have read speaks about the disks
      warping. Various people have reported that using heavier steel for the
      disks prevents warping, except perhaps at the center near the shaft.

      Dr. Tesla himself was gravely disappointed at the unsatisfactory results
      of the research TT built by Allis-Chalmers. The failure of that project
      seems to have been the end of commercial pursuit of the TT as a power
      source.

      As I recall the story, the engineers said that their turbine produced
      adequate power, but the disk pack was not durable enough for a commercial
      product. One wonders whether that result would have been different, and
      whether we would now be getting electricity produced by TT, had the
      Allis-Chalmers engineers used a stronger material than the steel
      available at that time.

      In my view, the proper material for TT disks is titanium. It is much
      stronger than steel. It bears heat stresses far more effectively. It
      withstands severe abrasion, and it does not rust. That is why titanium
      is used for Mach 2 and Mach 3 aircraft, and why it is at the heart of jet
      engines.

      Titanium disks, I believe, will operate without warping in a TT. One
      should be able to input much more energy, say in the form of steam, and
      to extract more energy without deformation or damage to the equipment.

      One must recognize that Dr. Tesla was getting two or three hp. per disk
      from his turbines, and he anticipated much higher output by using steam
      at higher pressures and temperatures. He was, however, unable to
      construct a machine whose disks would bear the strain of producing, say,
      ten hp. per disk; the materials just were not available. Now, however,
      we have titanium.

      Unfortunately, titanium is very costly relative to steel. It is also
      more difficult for the average person to obtain in small quantities, and
      it is harder to machine. I suspect that the average TT hobbyist or
      developer chooses steel disks for these reasons, even if the person knows
      that titanium would give a much superior result. (And forgive me please
      -- I know that none of you is "average".)

      I am happy to report that I have available a supply of titanium disks.
      These are 0.021" thick and 5-1/4" in diameter. They should make a very
      nice TT, which should run at around 30,000 - 35,000 rpm without any disk
      problems. You should be able to produce quite a few hp. from such a
      turbine.

      I will make available a reasonable quantity of said disks to any member
      of these lists, for $3.00 per disk, plus postage. (But only for your
      personal use; no resellers please.) These are plain, unperforated disks.
      Since I do not know your shaft size or configuration, nor the exhaust
      hole configuration you want, you will have to cut those yourself or have
      them cut by a machine shop.

      For those who will do their own work, cobalt drills and other cobalt
      tools work exceedingly well in titanium. You can also use carbide
      cutters, or even high-speed steel, but the HSS would wear fairly quickly
      and need resharpening fairly often. (Use a slow cutting speed to
      minimize tool wear; plus plenty of cutting fluid.) Carbide and cobalt
      tools are available from good tool stores, or by mail from big suppliers
      like MSN or Grainger, or at various places on the Internet.

      Thus if you want to make a 21-disk turbine, the titanium disks will cost
      you $63 -- not bad. I think you will find that the titanium is
      sufficiently strong that heavier disks on the ends will not be needed as
      stiffeners.

      For those who believe the easiest and perhaps best way to build a TT case
      is to use a piece of pipe, I have found a source for 5-1/2" aluminum
      pipe, which is 6-1/8" OD, or in other words with 5/16" walls. This would
      give you 1/8" clearance on either side of your disk pack, consistent with
      Dr. Tesla's goal of narrow clearance for high performance. These
      sections are 7-1/2" long. They would cost you $25, plus shipping. One
      piece should be enough for two or three or even more turbines. You can
      cut these with a bandsaw or table saw, or even a hacksaw (though you
      might have to square up the ends with a file).

      If you are going to power your turbine with an input stream which you
      feel would be highly erosive of the aluminum (steam should not be
      damaging), then you might want to include a very thin liner. You could
      use, for example, 1/32" stainless steel. Alternatively, I believe I
      could supply you with strips of titanium 1/32" thick, and a little wider
      than your disk pack. This would make the turbine more durable --
      probably indestructible -- and would make your operating clearance 3/32".
      (At least one of Dr. Tesla's turbines was made with 1/64" clearance, as
      I recall, but I think he determined that such fine tolerances were not
      necessary.)

      BTW, I also found a supplier of 5-1/2" steel pipe. But he wants $250 for
      a three-foot sample piece, and about $10.00 per foot in quantities of 200
      feet or more. If you want steel, you are going to have to find your own.
      The aluminum just mentioned should give adequate strength.

      I am also working on obtaining low-cost shafts. I have a couple that are
      18 mm. diameter, polished, very high quality steel. I think I can get a
      few more. A 20" shaft -- enough for at least two turbines, I think --
      would cost you $25 plus shipping.

      Finally, I have available some very nice stainless steel disks, 2 -5/8"
      in diameter, 1/32" thick, which you could cut into whatever shape you
      wish for your star washers. These should be about the right size. A
      buck apiece.

      I am also working on finding adequate bearings. Will let you know what I
      discover.

      So, what you have here are about 80% of the parts you would need for a
      very impressive TT, for about a hundred bucks.

      I am not offering complete kits, ready to bolt together. I think Frank
      Germano is working on that, and I believe he plans to offer a complete
      kit for maybe $1500. But I am not speaking for him, nor am I trying to
      quote his prices. I hope I am not too mistaken, but if I am, I apologize
      in advance.

      What I am offering, I think, is a great jump forward in your sourcing and
      fabrication of key components for making your own TT. Plus, I think, a
      pretty favorable price. But you would have some work to do.

      And because people have their own ideas, I suspect that everyone's
      turbine would differ from everyone else's -- so we could perhaps get some
      interesting comparisons.

      If you want these components for your TT, you would also have to
      fabricate end pieces to seal the tube. You would further need to find or
      make a suitable nozzle; an energy source; star washers; and bearings.
      The end pieces could easily be made from 1/4" or 3/8" steel plate, or
      perhaps stainless steel if you wish. The star washers can be made from
      stainless steel, such as that offered above. They will carry some of the
      load, to be sure, but with titanium used for the disks I think you will
      not get any warping or other deformation of the washers.

      We have seen a great many postings about the TT on these lists, but there
      has been a dismal shortage of hard data and personal experiences about
      the performance of such machines. Lots of people have talked about
      building a TT for use in everything from lawnmowers to jet powered boats,
      but we have not yet seen any results.

      For these reasons, I am offering the foregoing ways to simplify and
      reduce the cost of your work, plus making possible a higher performance
      machine -- in the hope that the Tesla lists will soon burgeon with
      real-world data, experiences, advice, and applications.

      Kent

      ___________________________________________________________________
      Get the Internet just the way you want it.
      Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
      Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
    • Jim
      I thought I saw a request about these disks asking if they were available in larger diameters. I don t remember seeing any reply. Can these be obtained in
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 20 12:04 PM
        I thought I saw a request about these disks asking if they were available in
        larger diameters. I don't remember seeing any reply. Can these be obtained
        in larger diameters? say 10-12 inches?

        THey are interesting though.

        jim
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Kent L Aldershof <aldershof-msi@...>
        To: TeslaTurbine@onelist.com <TeslaTurbine@onelist.com>
        Cc: TheTeslaTurbineList@onelist.com <TheTeslaTurbineList@onelist.com>;
        USA-Tesla@onelist.com <USA-Tesla@onelist.com>
        Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 5:43 PM
        Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Titanium Disks


        >From: Kent L Aldershof <aldershof-msi@...>
        >
        >Fellow TT enthusiasts,
        >
        >It has long been my view that construction materials are critical to the
        >performance and success of the Tesla Turbine.
        >
        >The most important of these is the disks themselves -- although with the
        >importance of bearings, shafts, nozzles, and other components that may be
        >like claiming that one's heart is more important than one's lungs. You
        >are not going to perform very well or last very long if either of those
        >is malfunctioning.
        >
        >Much of the TT literature that I have read speaks about the disks
        >warping. Various people have reported that using heavier steel for the
        >disks prevents warping, except perhaps at the center near the shaft.
        >
        >Dr. Tesla himself was gravely disappointed at the unsatisfactory results
        >of the research TT built by Allis-Chalmers. The failure of that project
        >seems to have been the end of commercial pursuit of the TT as a power
        >source.
        >
        >As I recall the story, the engineers said that their turbine produced
        >adequate power, but the disk pack was not durable enough for a commercial
        >product. One wonders whether that result would have been different, and
        >whether we would now be getting electricity produced by TT, had the
        >Allis-Chalmers engineers used a stronger material than the steel
        >available at that time.
        >
        >In my view, the proper material for TT disks is titanium. It is much
        >stronger than steel. It bears heat stresses far more effectively. It
        >withstands severe abrasion, and it does not rust. That is why titanium
        >is used for Mach 2 and Mach 3 aircraft, and why it is at the heart of jet
        >engines.
        >
        >Titanium disks, I believe, will operate without warping in a TT. One
        >should be able to input much more energy, say in the form of steam, and
        >to extract more energy without deformation or damage to the equipment.
        >
        >One must recognize that Dr. Tesla was getting two or three hp. per disk
        >from his turbines, and he anticipated much higher output by using steam
        >at higher pressures and temperatures. He was, however, unable to
        >construct a machine whose disks would bear the strain of producing, say,
        >ten hp. per disk; the materials just were not available. Now, however,
        >we have titanium.
        >
        >Unfortunately, titanium is very costly relative to steel. It is also
        >more difficult for the average person to obtain in small quantities, and
        >it is harder to machine. I suspect that the average TT hobbyist or
        >developer chooses steel disks for these reasons, even if the person knows
        >that titanium would give a much superior result. (And forgive me please
        >-- I know that none of you is "average".)
        >
        >I am happy to report that I have available a supply of titanium disks.
        >These are 0.021" thick and 5-1/4" in diameter. They should make a very
        >nice TT, which should run at around 30,000 - 35,000 rpm without any disk
        >problems. You should be able to produce quite a few hp. from such a
        >turbine.
        >
        >I will make available a reasonable quantity of said disks to any member
        >of these lists, for $3.00 per disk, plus postage. (But only for your
        >personal use; no resellers please.) These are plain, unperforated disks.
        > Since I do not know your shaft size or configuration, nor the exhaust
        >hole configuration you want, you will have to cut those yourself or have
        >them cut by a machine shop.
        >
        >For those who will do their own work, cobalt drills and other cobalt
        >tools work exceedingly well in titanium. You can also use carbide
        >cutters, or even high-speed steel, but the HSS would wear fairly quickly
        >and need resharpening fairly often. (Use a slow cutting speed to
        >minimize tool wear; plus plenty of cutting fluid.) Carbide and cobalt
        >tools are available from good tool stores, or by mail from big suppliers
        >like MSN or Grainger, or at various places on the Internet.
        >
        >Thus if you want to make a 21-disk turbine, the titanium disks will cost
        >you $63 -- not bad. I think you will find that the titanium is
        >sufficiently strong that heavier disks on the ends will not be needed as
        >stiffeners.
        >
        >For those who believe the easiest and perhaps best way to build a TT case
        >is to use a piece of pipe, I have found a source for 5-1/2" aluminum
        >pipe, which is 6-1/8" OD, or in other words with 5/16" walls. This would
        >give you 1/8" clearance on either side of your disk pack, consistent with
        >Dr. Tesla's goal of narrow clearance for high performance. These
        >sections are 7-1/2" long. They would cost you $25, plus shipping. One
        >piece should be enough for two or three or even more turbines. You can
        >cut these with a bandsaw or table saw, or even a hacksaw (though you
        >might have to square up the ends with a file).
        >
        >If you are going to power your turbine with an input stream which you
        >feel would be highly erosive of the aluminum (steam should not be
        >damaging), then you might want to include a very thin liner. You could
        >use, for example, 1/32" stainless steel. Alternatively, I believe I
        >could supply you with strips of titanium 1/32" thick, and a little wider
        >than your disk pack. This would make the turbine more durable --
        >probably indestructible -- and would make your operating clearance 3/32".
        > (At least one of Dr. Tesla's turbines was made with 1/64" clearance, as
        >I recall, but I think he determined that such fine tolerances were not
        >necessary.)
        >
        >BTW, I also found a supplier of 5-1/2" steel pipe. But he wants $250 for
        >a three-foot sample piece, and about $10.00 per foot in quantities of 200
        >feet or more. If you want steel, you are going to have to find your own.
        > The aluminum just mentioned should give adequate strength.
        >
        >I am also working on obtaining low-cost shafts. I have a couple that are
        >18 mm. diameter, polished, very high quality steel. I think I can get a
        >few more. A 20" shaft -- enough for at least two turbines, I think --
        >would cost you $25 plus shipping.
        >
        >Finally, I have available some very nice stainless steel disks, 2 -5/8"
        >in diameter, 1/32" thick, which you could cut into whatever shape you
        >wish for your star washers. These should be about the right size. A
        >buck apiece.
        >
        >I am also working on finding adequate bearings. Will let you know what I
        >discover.
        >
        >So, what you have here are about 80% of the parts you would need for a
        >very impressive TT, for about a hundred bucks.
        >
        >I am not offering complete kits, ready to bolt together. I think Frank
        >Germano is working on that, and I believe he plans to offer a complete
        >kit for maybe $1500. But I am not speaking for him, nor am I trying to
        >quote his prices. I hope I am not too mistaken, but if I am, I apologize
        >in advance.
        >
        >What I am offering, I think, is a great jump forward in your sourcing and
        >fabrication of key components for making your own TT. Plus, I think, a
        >pretty favorable price. But you would have some work to do.
        >
        >And because people have their own ideas, I suspect that everyone's
        >turbine would differ from everyone else's -- so we could perhaps get some
        >interesting comparisons.
        >
        >If you want these components for your TT, you would also have to
        >fabricate end pieces to seal the tube. You would further need to find or
        >make a suitable nozzle; an energy source; star washers; and bearings.
        >The end pieces could easily be made from 1/4" or 3/8" steel plate, or
        >perhaps stainless steel if you wish. The star washers can be made from
        >stainless steel, such as that offered above. They will carry some of the
        >load, to be sure, but with titanium used for the disks I think you will
        >not get any warping or other deformation of the washers.
        >
        >We have seen a great many postings about the TT on these lists, but there
        >has been a dismal shortage of hard data and personal experiences about
        >the performance of such machines. Lots of people have talked about
        >building a TT for use in everything from lawnmowers to jet powered boats,
        >but we have not yet seen any results.
        >
        >For these reasons, I am offering the foregoing ways to simplify and
        >reduce the cost of your work, plus making possible a higher performance
        >machine -- in the hope that the Tesla lists will soon burgeon with
        >real-world data, experiences, advice, and applications.
        >
        >Kent
        >
        >___________________________________________________________________
        >Get the Internet just the way you want it.
        >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
        >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
        >
        >
      • Kent L Aldershof
        Yes, Jim, I have in hand a small supply of 11 diameter titanium disks. Quite nice, 25 guage (.021 ). A turbine built with these should be suitable to power
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 29 6:45 PM
          Yes, Jim,

          I have in hand a small supply of 11" diameter titanium disks. Quite
          nice, 25 guage (.021"). A turbine built with these should be suitable to
          power a locomotive or a 757.

          Contact me privately with your requirements.

          Kent

          > Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 15:04:56 -0500
          > From: "Jim" <jim@...>
          > Subject: Re: Titanium Disks
          >
          > I thought I saw a request about these disks asking if they were
          > available in
          > larger diameters. I don't remember seeing any reply. Can these be
          > obtained
          > in larger diameters? say 10-12 inches?
          >
          > THey are interesting though.
          >
          > jim
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Kent L Aldershof <aldershof-msi@...>
          > To: TeslaTurbine@onelist.com <TeslaTurbine@onelist.com>
          > Cc: TheTeslaTurbineList@onelist.com
          > <TheTeslaTurbineList@onelist.com>;
          > USA-Tesla@onelist.com <USA-Tesla@onelist.com>
          > Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 5:43 PM
          > Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Titanium Disks
          >
          >
          > >From: Kent L Aldershof <aldershof-msi@...>
          > >
          > >Fellow TT enthusiasts,
          > >
          > >It has long been my view that construction materials are critical
          > to the
          > >performance and success of the Tesla Turbine.
          > >
          > >The most important of these is the disks themselves -- although
          > with the
          > >importance of bearings, shafts, nozzles, and other components that
          > may be
          > >like claiming that one's heart is more important than one's lungs.
          > You
          > >are not going to perform very well or last very long if either of
          > those
          > >is malfunctioning.
          > >
          > >Much of the TT literature that I have read speaks about the disks
          > >warping. Various people have reported that using heavier steel for
          > the
          > >disks prevents warping, except perhaps at the center near the shaft.
          > >
          > >Dr. Tesla himself was gravely disappointed at the unsatisfactory
          > results
          > >of the research TT built by Allis-Chalmers. The failure of that
          > project
          > >seems to have been the end of commercial pursuit of the TT as a
          > power
          > >source.
          > >
          > >As I recall the story, the engineers said that their turbine
          > produced
          > >adequate power, but the disk pack was not durable enough for a
          > commercial
          > >product. One wonders whether that result would have been
          > different, and
          > >whether we would now be getting electricity produced by TT, had the
          > >Allis-Chalmers engineers used a stronger material than the steel
          > >available at that time.
          > >
          > >In my view, the proper material for TT disks is titanium. It is
          > much
          > >stronger than steel. It bears heat stresses far more effectively.
          > It
          > >withstands severe abrasion, and it does not rust. That is why
          > titanium
          > >is used for Mach 2 and Mach 3 aircraft, and why it is at the heart
          > of jet
          > >engines.
          > >
          > >Titanium disks, I believe, will operate without warping in a TT.
          > One
          > >should be able to input much more energy, say in the form of steam,
          > and
          > >to extract more energy without deformation or damage to the
          > equipment.
          > >
          > >One must recognize that Dr. Tesla was getting two or three hp. per
          > disk
          > >from his turbines, and he anticipated much higher output by using
          > steam
          > >at higher pressures and temperatures. He was, however, unable to
          > >construct a machine whose disks would bear the strain of producing,
          > say,
          > >ten hp. per disk; the materials just were not available. Now,
          > however,
          > >we have titanium.
          > >
          > >Unfortunately, titanium is very costly relative to steel. It is
          > also
          > >more difficult for the average person to obtain in small
          > quantities, and
          > >it is harder to machine. I suspect that the average TT hobbyist or
          > >developer chooses steel disks for these reasons, even if the person
          > knows
          > >that titanium would give a much superior result. (And forgive me
          > please
          > >-- I know that none of you is "average".)
          > >
          > >I am happy to report that I have available a supply of titanium
          > disks.
          > >These are 0.021" thick and 5-1/4" in diameter. They should make a
          > very
          > >nice TT, which should run at around 30,000 - 35,000 rpm without any
          > disk
          > >problems. You should be able to produce quite a few hp. from such a
          > >turbine.
          > >
          > >I will make available a reasonable quantity of said disks to any
          > member
          > >of these lists, for $3.00 per disk, plus postage. (But only for
          > your
          > >personal use; no resellers please.) These are plain, unperforated
          > disks.
          > > Since I do not know your shaft size or configuration, nor the
          > exhaust
          > >hole configuration you want, you will have to cut those yourself or
          > have
          > >them cut by a machine shop.
          > >
          > >For those who will do their own work, cobalt drills and other cobalt
          > >tools work exceedingly well in titanium. You can also use carbide
          > >cutters, or even high-speed steel, but the HSS would wear fairly
          > quickly
          > >and need resharpening fairly often. (Use a slow cutting speed to
          > >minimize tool wear; plus plenty of cutting fluid.) Carbide and
          > cobalt
          > >tools are available from good tool stores, or by mail from big
          > suppliers
          > >like MSN or Grainger, or at various places on the Internet.
          > >
          > >Thus if you want to make a 21-disk turbine, the titanium disks will
          > cost
          > >you $63 -- not bad. I think you will find that the titanium is
          > >sufficiently strong that heavier disks on the ends will not be
          > needed as
          > >stiffeners.
          > >
          > >For those who believe the easiest and perhaps best way to build a
          > TT case
          > >is to use a piece of pipe, I have found a source for 5-1/2" aluminum
          > >pipe, which is 6-1/8" OD, or in other words with 5/16" walls. This
          > would
          > >give you 1/8" clearance on either side of your disk pack,
          > consistent with
          > >Dr. Tesla's goal of narrow clearance for high performance. These
          > >sections are 7-1/2" long. They would cost you $25, plus shipping.
          > One
          > >piece should be enough for two or three or even more turbines. You
          > can
          > >cut these with a bandsaw or table saw, or even a hacksaw (though you
          > >might have to square up the ends with a file).
          > >
          > >If you are going to power your turbine with an input stream which
          > you
          > >feel would be highly erosive of the aluminum (steam should not be
          > >damaging), then you might want to include a very thin liner. You
          > could
          > >use, for example, 1/32" stainless steel. Alternatively, I believe I
          > >could supply you with strips of titanium 1/32" thick, and a little
          > wider
          > >than your disk pack. This would make the turbine more durable --
          > >probably indestructible -- and would make your operating clearance
          > 3/32".
          > > (At least one of Dr. Tesla's turbines was made with 1/64"
          > clearance, as
          > >I recall, but I think he determined that such fine tolerances were
          > not
          > >necessary.)
          > >
          > >BTW, I also found a supplier of 5-1/2" steel pipe. But he wants
          > $250 for
          > >a three-foot sample piece, and about $10.00 per foot in quantities
          > of 200
          > >feet or more. If you want steel, you are going to have to find
          > your own.
          > > The aluminum just mentioned should give adequate strength.
          > >
          > >I am also working on obtaining low-cost shafts. I have a couple
          > that are
          > >18 mm. diameter, polished, very high quality steel. I think I can
          > get a
          > >few more. A 20" shaft -- enough for at least two turbines, I think
          > --
          > >would cost you $25 plus shipping.
          > >
          > >Finally, I have available some very nice stainless steel disks, 2
          > -5/8"
          > >in diameter, 1/32" thick, which you could cut into whatever shape
          > you
          > >wish for your star washers. These should be about the right size.
          > A
          > >buck apiece.
          > >
          > >I am also working on finding adequate bearings. Will let you know
          > what I
          > >discover.
          > >
          > >So, what you have here are about 80% of the parts you would need
          > for a
          > >very impressive TT, for about a hundred bucks.
          > >
          > >I am not offering complete kits, ready to bolt together. I think
          > Frank
          > >Germano is working on that, and I believe he plans to offer a
          > complete
          > >kit for maybe $1500. But I am not speaking for him, nor am I
          > trying to
          > >quote his prices. I hope I am not too mistaken, but if I am, I
          > apologize
          > >in advance.
          > >
          > >What I am offering, I think, is a great jump forward in your
          > sourcing and
          > >fabrication of key components for making your own TT. Plus, I
          > think, a
          > >pretty favorable price. But you would have some work to do.
          > >
          > >And because people have their own ideas, I suspect that everyone's
          > >turbine would differ from everyone else's -- so we could perhaps
          > get some
          > >interesting comparisons.
          > >
          > >If you want these components for your TT, you would also have to
          > >fabricate end pieces to seal the tube. You would further need to
          > find or
          > >make a suitable nozzle; an energy source; star washers; and
          > bearings.
          > >The end pieces could easily be made from 1/4" or 3/8" steel plate,
          > or
          > >perhaps stainless steel if you wish. The star washers can be made
          > from
          > >stainless steel, such as that offered above. They will carry some
          > of the
          > >load, to be sure, but with titanium used for the disks I think you
          > will
          > >not get any warping or other deformation of the washers.
          > >
          > >We have seen a great many postings about the TT on these lists, but
          > there
          > >has been a dismal shortage of hard data and personal experiences
          > about
          > >the performance of such machines. Lots of people have talked about
          > >building a TT for use in everything from lawnmowers to jet powered
          > boats,
          > >but we have not yet seen any results.
          > >
          > >For these reasons, I am offering the foregoing ways to simplify and
          > >reduce the cost of your work, plus making possible a higher
          > performance
          > >machine -- in the hope that the Tesla lists will soon burgeon with
          > >real-world data, experiences, advice, and applications.
          > >
          > >Kent
          > >
          > >___________________________________________________________________
          > >Get the Internet just the way you want it.
          > >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
          > >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          _________________________________________________________________________
          ______
          >
          _________________________________________________________________________
          ______
          >

          ___________________________________________________________________
          Get the Internet just the way you want it.
          Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
          Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
        • Jospeh Varella
          Kent; Did anyone take you up on this materials, are they still available, etc. JV ... available in ... obtained ... ; ... to
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 24, 2000
            Kent;

            Did anyone take you up on this materials, are they still available,
            etc.

            JV



            --- In TeslaTurbine@egroups.com, "Jim" <jim@... wrote:
            > I thought I saw a request about these disks asking if they were
            available in
            > larger diameters. I don't remember seeing any reply. Can these be
            obtained
            > in larger diameters? say 10-12 inches?
            >
            > THey are interesting though.
            >
            > jim
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Kent L Aldershof <aldershof-msi@j...>
            > To: TeslaTurbine@onelist.com <TeslaTurbine@onelist.com>
            > Cc: TheTeslaTurbineList@onelist.com
            <TheTeslaTurbineList@onelist.com>;
            > USA-Tesla@onelist.com <USA-Tesla@onelist.com>
            > Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 5:43 PM
            > Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Titanium Disks
            >
            >
            > >From: Kent L Aldershof <aldershof-msi@j...>
            > >
            > >Fellow TT enthusiasts,
            > >
            > >It has long been my view that construction materials are critical
            to the
            > >performance and success of the Tesla Turbine.
            > >
            > >The most important of these is the disks themselves -- although
            with the
            > >importance of bearings, shafts, nozzles, and other components that
            may be
            > >like claiming that one's heart is more important than one's
            lungs. You
            > >are not going to perform very well or last very long if either of
            those
            > >is malfunctioning.
            > >
            > >Much of the TT literature that I have read speaks about the disks
            > >warping. Various people have reported that using heavier steel
            for the
            > >disks prevents warping, except perhaps at the center near the
            shaft.
            > >
            > >Dr. Tesla himself was gravely disappointed at the unsatisfactory
            results
            > >of the research TT built by Allis-Chalmers. The failure of that
            project
            > >seems to have been the end of commercial pursuit of the TT as a
            power
            > >source.
            > >
            > >As I recall the story, the engineers said that their turbine
            produced
            > >adequate power, but the disk pack was not durable enough for a
            commercial
            > >product. One wonders whether that result would have been
            different, and
            > >whether we would now be getting electricity produced by TT, had the
            > >Allis-Chalmers engineers used a stronger material than the steel
            > >available at that time.
            > >
            > >In my view, the proper material for TT disks is titanium. It is
            much
            > >stronger than steel. It bears heat stresses far more
            effectively. It
            > >withstands severe abrasion, and it does not rust. That is why
            titanium
            > >is used for Mach 2 and Mach 3 aircraft, and why it is at the heart
            of jet
            > >engines.
            > >
            > >Titanium disks, I believe, will operate without warping in a TT.
            One
            > >should be able to input much more energy, say in the form of
            steam, and
            > >to extract more energy without deformation or damage to the
            equipment.
            > >
            > >One must recognize that Dr. Tesla was getting two or three hp. per
            disk
            > >from his turbines, and he anticipated much higher output by using
            steam
            > >at higher pressures and temperatures. He was, however, unable to
            > >construct a machine whose disks would bear the strain of
            producing, say,
            > >ten hp. per disk; the materials just were not available. Now,
            however,
            > >we have titanium.
            > >
            > >Unfortunately, titanium is very costly relative to steel. It is
            also
            > >more difficult for the average person to obtain in small
            quantities, and
            > >it is harder to machine. I suspect that the average TT hobbyist or
            > >developer chooses steel disks for these reasons, even if the
            person knows
            > >that titanium would give a much superior result. (And forgive me
            please
            > >-- I know that none of you is "average".)
            > >
            > >I am happy to report that I have available a supply of titanium
            disks.
            > >These are 0.021" thick and 5-1/4" in diameter. They should make a
            very
            > >nice TT, which should run at around 30,000 - 35,000 rpm without
            any disk
            > >problems. You should be able to produce quite a few hp. from such
            a
            > >turbine.
            > >
            > >I will make available a reasonable quantity of said disks to any
            member
            > >of these lists, for $3.00 per disk, plus postage. (But only for
            your
            > >personal use; no resellers please.) These are plain, unperforated
            disks.
            > > Since I do not know your shaft size or configuration, nor the
            exhaust
            > >hole configuration you want, you will have to cut those yourself
            or have
            > >them cut by a machine shop.
            > >
            > >For those who will do their own work, cobalt drills and other
            cobalt
            > >tools work exceedingly well in titanium. You can also use carbide
            > >cutters, or even high-speed steel, but the HSS would wear fairly
            quickly
            > >and need resharpening fairly often. (Use a slow cutting speed to
            > >minimize tool wear; plus plenty of cutting fluid.) Carbide and
            cobalt
            > >tools are available from good tool stores, or by mail from big
            suppliers
            > >like MSN or Grainger, or at various places on the Internet.
            > >
            > >Thus if you want to make a 21-disk turbine, the titanium disks
            will cost
            > >you $63 -- not bad. I think you will find that the titanium is
            > >sufficiently strong that heavier disks on the ends will not be
            needed as
            > >stiffeners.
            > >
            > >For those who believe the easiest and perhaps best way to build a
            TT case
            > >is to use a piece of pipe, I have found a source for 5-1/2"
            aluminum
            > >pipe, which is 6-1/8" OD, or in other words with 5/16" walls.
            This would
            > >give you 1/8" clearance on either side of your disk pack,
            consistent with
            > >Dr. Tesla's goal of narrow clearance for high performance. These
            > >sections are 7-1/2" long. They would cost you $25, plus
            shipping. One
            > >piece should be enough for two or three or even more turbines.
            You can
            > >cut these with a bandsaw or table saw, or even a hacksaw (though
            you
            > >might have to square up the ends with a file).
            > >
            > >If you are going to power your turbine with an input stream which
            you
            > >feel would be highly erosive of the aluminum (steam should not be
            > >damaging), then you might want to include a very thin liner. You
            could
            > >use, for example, 1/32" stainless steel. Alternatively, I believe
            I
            > >could supply you with strips of titanium 1/32" thick, and a little
            wider
            > >than your disk pack. This would make the turbine more durable --
            > >probably indestructible -- and would make your operating clearance
            3/32".
            > > (At least one of Dr. Tesla's turbines was made with 1/64"
            clearance, as
            > >I recall, but I think he determined that such fine tolerances were
            not
            > >necessary.)
            > >
            > >BTW, I also found a supplier of 5-1/2" steel pipe. But he wants
            $250 for
            > >a three-foot sample piece, and about $10.00 per foot in quantities
            of 200
            > >feet or more. If you want steel, you are going to have to find
            your own.
            > > The aluminum just mentioned should give adequate strength.
            > >
            > >I am also working on obtaining low-cost shafts. I have a couple
            that are
            > >18 mm. diameter, polished, very high quality steel. I think I can
            get a
            > >few more. A 20" shaft -- enough for at least two turbines, I
            think --
            > >would cost you $25 plus shipping.
            > >
            > >Finally, I have available some very nice stainless steel disks, 2 -
            5/8"
            > >in diameter, 1/32" thick, which you could cut into whatever shape
            you
            > >wish for your star washers. These should be about the right
            size. A
            > >buck apiece.
            > >
            > >I am also working on finding adequate bearings. Will let you know
            what I
            > >discover.
            > >
            > >So, what you have here are about 80% of the parts you would need
            for a
            > >very impressive TT, for about a hundred bucks.
            > >
            > >I am not offering complete kits, ready to bolt together. I think
            Frank
            > >Germano is working on that, and I believe he plans to offer a
            complete
            > >kit for maybe $1500. But I am not speaking for him, nor am I
            trying to
            > >quote his prices. I hope I am not too mistaken, but if I am, I
            apologize
            > >in advance.
            > >
            > >What I am offering, I think, is a great jump forward in your
            sourcing and
            > >fabrication of key components for making your own TT. Plus, I
            think, a
            > >pretty favorable price. But you would have some work to do.
            > >
            > >And because people have their own ideas, I suspect that everyone's
            > >turbine would differ from everyone else's -- so we could perhaps
            get some
            > >interesting comparisons.
            > >
            > >If you want these components for your TT, you would also have to
            > >fabricate end pieces to seal the tube. You would further need to
            find or
            > >make a suitable nozzle; an energy source; star washers; and
            bearings.
            > >The end pieces could easily be made from 1/4" or 3/8" steel plate,
            or
            > >perhaps stainless steel if you wish. The star washers can be made
            from
            > >stainless steel, such as that offered above. They will carry some
            of the
            > >load, to be sure, but with titanium used for the disks I think you
            will
            > >not get any warping or other deformation of the washers.
            > >
            > >We have seen a great many postings about the TT on these lists,
            but there
            > >has been a dismal shortage of hard data and personal experiences
            about
            > >the performance of such machines. Lots of people have talked about
            > >building a TT for use in everything from lawnmowers to jet powered
            boats,
            > >but we have not yet seen any results.
            > >
            > >For these reasons, I am offering the foregoing ways to simplify and
            > >reduce the cost of your work, plus making possible a higher
            performance
            > >machine -- in the hope that the Tesla lists will soon burgeon with
            > >real-world data, experiences, advice, and applications.
            > >
            > >Kent
            > >
            > >___________________________________________________________________
            > >Get the Internet just the way you want it.
            > >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
            > >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
            > >
            > >
          • Kent L. Aldershof
            Hi, Joseph and all, Sorry to take so much time before responding. Was away for several weeks, this being my first day back. Yes, several people have bought
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 10, 2001
              Hi, Joseph and all,

              Sorry to take so much time before responding. Was away for several
              weeks, this being my first day back.

              Yes, several people have bought titanium disks and other components, but
              as yet no one has reported the completion of a turbine.

              And yes, I still have more of the 5-1/2" disks and also a few 8" and a
              pile in the 10"-11" range. Plus more of the stuff mentioned in the
              earlier posting.

              Please let me know your specific interests, and I'll see what I have to
              serve your needs.

              Kent


              > Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 00:00:34 -0000
              > From: "Jospeh Varella" <jv@...>
              > Subject: Re: Titanium Disks
              >
              > Kent;
              >
              > Did anyone take you up on this materials, are they still available,
              > etc.
              >
              > JV
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In TeslaTurbine@egroups.com, "Jim" <jim@... wrote:
              > > I thought I saw a request about these disks asking if they were
              available in
              > > larger diameters. I don't remember seeing any reply. Can these be
              obtained
              > > in larger diameters? say 10-12 inches?
              > >
              > > THey are interesting though.
              > >
              > > jim
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Kent L Aldershof <aldershof-msi@j...>
              > > To: TeslaTurbine@onelist.com <TeslaTurbine@onelist.com>
              > > Cc: TheTeslaTurbineList@onelist.com
              > <TheTeslaTurbineList@onelist.com>;
              > > USA-Tesla@onelist.com <USA-Tesla@onelist.com>
              > > Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 5:43 PM
              > > Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Titanium Disks
              > >
              > >
              > > >From: Kent L Aldershof <aldershof-msi@j...>
              > > >
              > > >Fellow TT enthusiasts,
              > > >
              > > >It has long been my view that construction materials are critical to
              the
              > > >performance and success of the Tesla Turbine.
              > > >
              > > >The most important of these is the disks themselves -- although with
              the
              > > >importance of bearings, shafts, nozzles, and other components that
              may be
              > > >like claiming that one's heart is more important than one's lungs.
              You
              > > >are not going to perform very well or last very long if either of
              those
              > > >is malfunctioning.
              > > >
              > > >Much of the TT literature that I have read speaks about the disks
              > > >warping. Various people have reported that using heavier steel for
              the
              > > >disks prevents warping, except perhaps at the center near the shaft.
              > > >
              > > >Dr. Tesla himself was gravely disappointed at the unsatisfactory
              results
              > > >of the research TT built by Allis-Chalmers. The failure of that
              project
              > > >seems to have been the end of commercial pursuit of the TT as a
              power
              > > >source.
              > > >
              > > >As I recall the story, the engineers said that their turbine
              produced
              > > >adequate power, but the disk pack was not durable enough for a
              commercial
              > > >product. One wonders whether that result would have been different,
              and
              > > >whether we would now be getting electricity produced by TT, had the
              > > >Allis-Chalmers engineers used a stronger material than the steel
              available at that time.
              > > >
              > > >In my view, the proper material for TT disks is titanium. It is
              much
              > > >stronger than steel. It bears heat stresses far more effectively.
              It
              > > >withstands severe abrasion, and it does not rust. That is why
              titanium
              > > >is used for Mach 2 and Mach 3 aircraft, and why it is at the heart
              of jet
              > > >engines.
              > > >
              > > >Titanium disks, I believe, will operate without warping in a TT.
              One
              > > >should be able to input much more energy, say in the form of steam,
              and
              > > >to extract more energy without deformation or damage to the
              equipment.
              > > >
              > > >One must recognize that Dr. Tesla was getting two or three hp. per
              disk
              > > >from his turbines, and he anticipated much higher output by using
              steam
              > > >at higher pressures and temperatures. He was, however, unable to
              > > >construct a machine whose disks would bear the strain of producing,
              say,
              > > >ten hp. per disk; the materials just were not available. Now,
              however,
              > > >we have titanium.
              > > >
              > > >Unfortunately, titanium is very costly relative to steel. It is
              also
              > > >more difficult for the average person to obtain in small quantities,
              and
              > > >it is harder to machine. I suspect that the average TT hobbyist or
              > > >developer chooses steel disks for these reasons, even if the person
              knows
              > > >that titanium would give a much superior result. (And forgive me
              please
              > > >-- I know that none of you is "average".)
              > > >
              > > >I am happy to report that I have available a supply of titanium
              disks.
              > > >These are 0.021" thick and 5-1/4" in diameter. They should make a
              very
              > > >nice TT, which should run at around 30,000 - 35,000 rpm without any
              disk
              > > >problems. You should be able to produce quite a few hp. from such a
              > > >turbine.
              > > >
              > > >I will make available a reasonable quantity of said disks to any
              member
              > > >of these lists, for $3.00 per disk, plus postage. (But only for
              your
              > > >personal use; no resellers please.) These are plain, unperforated
              disks.
              > > > Since I do not know your shaft size or configuration, nor the
              exhaust
              > > >hole configuration you want, you will have to cut those yourself or
              have
              > > >them cut by a machine shop.
              > > >
              > > >For those who will do their own work, cobalt drills and other cobalt
              > > >tools work exceedingly well in titanium. You can also use carbide
              > > >cutters, or even high-speed steel, but the HSS would wear fairly
              quickly
              > > >and need resharpening fairly often. (Use a slow cutting speed to
              > > >minimize tool wear; plus plenty of cutting fluid.) Carbide and
              cobalt
              > > >tools are available from good tool stores, or by mail from big
              > > >suppliers like MSC or Grainger, or at various places on the
              Internet.
              > > >
              > > >Thus if you want to make a 21-disk turbine, the titanium disks will
              cost
              > > >you $63 -- not bad. I think you will find that the titanium is
              > > >sufficiently strong that heavier disks on the ends will not be
              needed as
              > > >stiffeners.
              > > >
              > > >For those who believe the easiest and perhaps best way to build a TT
              case
              > > >is to use a piece of pipe, I have found a source for 5-1/2" aluminum
              > > >pipe, which is 6-1/8" OD, or in other words with 5/16" walls. This
              would
              > > >give you 1/8" clearance on either side of your disk pack, consistent
              with
              > > >Dr. Tesla's goal of narrow clearance for high performance. These
              > > >sections are 7-1/2" long. They would cost you $25, plus shipping.
              One
              > > >piece should be enough for two or three or even more turbines. You
              can
              > > >cut these with a bandsaw or table saw, or even a hacksaw (though you
              > > >might have to square up the ends with a file).
              > > >
              > > >If you are going to power your turbine with an input stream which
              you
              > > >feel would be highly erosive of the aluminum (steam should not be
              > > >damaging), then you might want to include a very thin liner. You
              could
              > > >use, for example, 1/32" stainless steel. Alternatively, I believe I
              > > >could supply you with strips of titanium 1/32" thick, and a little
              wider
              > > >than your disk pack. This would make the turbine more durable --
              > > >probably indestructible -- and would make your operating clearance
              3/32".
              > > > (At least one of Dr. Tesla's turbines was made with 1/64"
              clearance, as
              > > >I recall, but I think he determined that such fine tolerances were
              not
              > > >necessary.)
              > > >
              > > >BTW, I also found a supplier of 5-1/2" steel pipe. But he wants
              $250 for
              > > >a three-foot sample piece, and about $10.00 per foot in quantities
              of 200
              > > >feet or more. If you want steel, you are going to have to find your
              own.
              > > > The aluminum just mentioned should give adequate strength.
              > > >
              > > >I am also working on obtaining low-cost shafts. I have a couple
              that are
              > > >18 mm. diameter, polished, very high quality steel. I think I can
              get a
              > > >few more. A 20" shaft -- enough for at least two turbines, I think
              --
              > > >would cost you $25 plus shipping.
              > > >
              > > >Finally, I have available some very nice stainless steel disks, 2 -
              5/8"
              > > >in diameter, 1/32" thick, which you could cut into whatever shape
              you
              > > >wish for your star washers. These should be about the right size.
              A
              > > >buck apiece.
              > > >
              > > >I am also working on finding adequate bearings. Will let you know
              what I
              > > >discover.
              > > >
              > > >So, what you have here are about 80% of the parts you would need for
              a
              > > >very impressive TT, for about a hundred bucks.
              > > >
              > > >I am not offering complete kits, ready to bolt together. I think
              Frank
              > > >Germano is working on that, and I believe he plans to offer a
              complete
              > > >kit for maybe $1500. But I am not speaking for him, nor am I trying
              to
              > > >quote his prices. I hope I am not too mistaken, but if I am, I
              apologize
              > > >in advance.
              > > >
              > > >What I am offering, I think, is a great jump forward in your
              sourcing and
              > > >fabrication of key components for making your own TT. Plus, I
              think, a
              > > >pretty favorable price. But you would have some work to do.
              > > >
              > > >And because people have their own ideas, I suspect that everyone's
              > > >turbine would differ from everyone else's -- so we could perhaps get
              some
              > > >interesting comparisons.
              > > >
              > > >If you want these components for your TT, you would also have to
              > > >fabricate end pieces to seal the tube. You would further need to
              find or
              > > >make a suitable nozzle; an energy source; star washers; and
              bearings.
              > > >The end pieces could easily be made from 1/4" or 3/8" steel plate,
              or
              > > >perhaps stainless steel if you wish. The star washers can be made
              from
              > > >stainless steel, such as that offered above. They will carry some
              of the
              > > >load, to be sure, but with titanium used for the disks I think you
              will
              > > >not get any warping or other deformation of the washers.
              > > >
              > > >We have seen a great many postings about the TT on these lists, but
              there
              > > >has been a dismal shortage of hard data and personal experiences
              about
              > > >the performance of such machines. Lots of people have talked about
              > > >building a TT for use in everything from lawnmowers to jet powered
              boats,
              > > >but we have not yet seen any results.
              > > >
              > > >For these reasons, I am offering the foregoing ways to simplify and
              > > >reduce the cost of your work, plus making possible a higher
              performance
              > > >machine -- in the hope that the Tesla lists will soon burgeon with
              > > >real-world data, experiences, advice, and applications.
              > > >
              > > >Kent

              ________________________________________________________________
              GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
              Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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            • Leslie J. Sutch
              Kent I would like to know the prices of the differnt sizes and do you ship to canada? discs and star washers what else do you have? Les Sutch ... From: Kent
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 11, 2001
                Kent I would like to know the prices of the differnt sizes and do you ship
                to canada?
                discs and star washers what else do you have?
                Les Sutch


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Kent L. Aldershof" <Aldershof-MSI@...>
                To: <TeslaTurbine@egroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 3:56 PM
                Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Re: Titanium Disks


                > Hi, Joseph and all,
                >
                > Sorry to take so much time before responding. Was away for several
                > weeks, this being my first day back.
                >
                > Yes, several people have bought titanium disks and other components, but
                > as yet no one has reported the completion of a turbine.
                >
                > And yes, I still have more of the 5-1/2" disks and also a few 8" and a
                > pile in the 10"-11" range. Plus more of the stuff mentioned in the
                > earlier posting.
                >
                > Please let me know your specific interests, and I'll see what I have to
                > serve your needs.
                >
                > Kent
                >
                >
                > > Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 00:00:34 -0000
                > > From: "Jospeh Varella" <jv@...>
                > > Subject: Re: Titanium Disks
                > >
                > > Kent;
                > >
                > > Did anyone take you up on this materials, are they still available,
                > > etc.
                > >
                > > JV
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In TeslaTurbine@egroups.com, "Jim" <jim@... wrote:
                > > > I thought I saw a request about these disks asking if they were
                > available in
                > > > larger diameters. I don't remember seeing any reply. Can these be
                > obtained
                > > > in larger diameters? say 10-12 inches?
                > > >
                > > > THey are interesting though.
                > > >
                > > > jim
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: Kent L Aldershof <aldershof-msi@j...>
                > > > To: TeslaTurbine@onelist.com <TeslaTurbine@onelist.com>
                > > > Cc: TheTeslaTurbineList@onelist.com
                > > <TheTeslaTurbineList@onelist.com>;
                > > > USA-Tesla@onelist.com <USA-Tesla@onelist.com>
                > > > Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 5:43 PM
                > > > Subject: [TeslaTurbine] Titanium Disks
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > >From: Kent L Aldershof <aldershof-msi@j...>
                > > > >
                > > > >Fellow TT enthusiasts,
                > > > >
                > > > >It has long been my view that construction materials are critical to
                > the
                > > > >performance and success of the Tesla Turbine.
                > > > >
                > > > >The most important of these is the disks themselves -- although with
                > the
                > > > >importance of bearings, shafts, nozzles, and other components that
                > may be
                > > > >like claiming that one's heart is more important than one's lungs.
                > You
                > > > >are not going to perform very well or last very long if either of
                > those
                > > > >is malfunctioning.
                > > > >
                > > > >Much of the TT literature that I have read speaks about the disks
                > > > >warping. Various people have reported that using heavier steel for
                > the
                > > > >disks prevents warping, except perhaps at the center near the shaft.
                > > > >
                > > > >Dr. Tesla himself was gravely disappointed at the unsatisfactory
                > results
                > > > >of the research TT built by Allis-Chalmers. The failure of that
                > project
                > > > >seems to have been the end of commercial pursuit of the TT as a
                > power
                > > > >source.
                > > > >
                > > > >As I recall the story, the engineers said that their turbine
                > produced
                > > > >adequate power, but the disk pack was not durable enough for a
                > commercial
                > > > >product. One wonders whether that result would have been different,
                > and
                > > > >whether we would now be getting electricity produced by TT, had the
                > > > >Allis-Chalmers engineers used a stronger material than the steel
                > available at that time.
                > > > >
                > > > >In my view, the proper material for TT disks is titanium. It is
                > much
                > > > >stronger than steel. It bears heat stresses far more effectively.
                > It
                > > > >withstands severe abrasion, and it does not rust. That is why
                > titanium
                > > > >is used for Mach 2 and Mach 3 aircraft, and why it is at the heart
                > of jet
                > > > >engines.
                > > > >
                > > > >Titanium disks, I believe, will operate without warping in a TT.
                > One
                > > > >should be able to input much more energy, say in the form of steam,
                > and
                > > > >to extract more energy without deformation or damage to the
                > equipment.
                > > > >
                > > > >One must recognize that Dr. Tesla was getting two or three hp. per
                > disk
                > > > >from his turbines, and he anticipated much higher output by using
                > steam
                > > > >at higher pressures and temperatures. He was, however, unable to
                > > > >construct a machine whose disks would bear the strain of producing,
                > say,
                > > > >ten hp. per disk; the materials just were not available. Now,
                > however,
                > > > >we have titanium.
                > > > >
                > > > >Unfortunately, titanium is very costly relative to steel. It is
                > also
                > > > >more difficult for the average person to obtain in small quantities,
                > and
                > > > >it is harder to machine. I suspect that the average TT hobbyist or
                > > > >developer chooses steel disks for these reasons, even if the person
                > knows
                > > > >that titanium would give a much superior result. (And forgive me
                > please
                > > > >-- I know that none of you is "average".)
                > > > >
                > > > >I am happy to report that I have available a supply of titanium
                > disks.
                > > > >These are 0.021" thick and 5-1/4" in diameter. They should make a
                > very
                > > > >nice TT, which should run at around 30,000 - 35,000 rpm without any
                > disk
                > > > >problems. You should be able to produce quite a few hp. from such a
                > > > >turbine.
                > > > >
                > > > >I will make available a reasonable quantity of said disks to any
                > member
                > > > >of these lists, for $3.00 per disk, plus postage. (But only for
                > your
                > > > >personal use; no resellers please.) These are plain, unperforated
                > disks.
                > > > > Since I do not know your shaft size or configuration, nor the
                > exhaust
                > > > >hole configuration you want, you will have to cut those yourself or
                > have
                > > > >them cut by a machine shop.
                > > > >
                > > > >For those who will do their own work, cobalt drills and other cobalt
                > > > >tools work exceedingly well in titanium. You can also use carbide
                > > > >cutters, or even high-speed steel, but the HSS would wear fairly
                > quickly
                > > > >and need resharpening fairly often. (Use a slow cutting speed to
                > > > >minimize tool wear; plus plenty of cutting fluid.) Carbide and
                > cobalt
                > > > >tools are available from good tool stores, or by mail from big
                > > > >suppliers like MSC or Grainger, or at various places on the
                > Internet.
                > > > >
                > > > >Thus if you want to make a 21-disk turbine, the titanium disks will
                > cost
                > > > >you $63 -- not bad. I think you will find that the titanium is
                > > > >sufficiently strong that heavier disks on the ends will not be
                > needed as
                > > > >stiffeners.
                > > > >
                > > > >For those who believe the easiest and perhaps best way to build a TT
                > case
                > > > >is to use a piece of pipe, I have found a source for 5-1/2" aluminum
                > > > >pipe, which is 6-1/8" OD, or in other words with 5/16" walls. This
                > would
                > > > >give you 1/8" clearance on either side of your disk pack, consistent
                > with
                > > > >Dr. Tesla's goal of narrow clearance for high performance. These
                > > > >sections are 7-1/2" long. They would cost you $25, plus shipping.
                > One
                > > > >piece should be enough for two or three or even more turbines. You
                > can
                > > > >cut these with a bandsaw or table saw, or even a hacksaw (though you
                > > > >might have to square up the ends with a file).
                > > > >
                > > > >If you are going to power your turbine with an input stream which
                > you
                > > > >feel would be highly erosive of the aluminum (steam should not be
                > > > >damaging), then you might want to include a very thin liner. You
                > could
                > > > >use, for example, 1/32" stainless steel. Alternatively, I believe I
                > > > >could supply you with strips of titanium 1/32" thick, and a little
                > wider
                > > > >than your disk pack. This would make the turbine more durable --
                > > > >probably indestructible -- and would make your operating clearance
                > 3/32".
                > > > > (At least one of Dr. Tesla's turbines was made with 1/64"
                > clearance, as
                > > > >I recall, but I think he determined that such fine tolerances were
                > not
                > > > >necessary.)
                > > > >
                > > > >BTW, I also found a supplier of 5-1/2" steel pipe. But he wants
                > $250 for
                > > > >a three-foot sample piece, and about $10.00 per foot in quantities
                > of 200
                > > > >feet or more. If you want steel, you are going to have to find your
                > own.
                > > > > The aluminum just mentioned should give adequate strength.
                > > > >
                > > > >I am also working on obtaining low-cost shafts. I have a couple
                > that are
                > > > >18 mm. diameter, polished, very high quality steel. I think I can
                > get a
                > > > >few more. A 20" shaft -- enough for at least two turbines, I think
                > --
                > > > >would cost you $25 plus shipping.
                > > > >
                > > > >Finally, I have available some very nice stainless steel disks, 2 -
                > 5/8"
                > > > >in diameter, 1/32" thick, which you could cut into whatever shape
                > you
                > > > >wish for your star washers. These should be about the right size.
                > A
                > > > >buck apiece.
                > > > >
                > > > >I am also working on finding adequate bearings. Will let you know
                > what I
                > > > >discover.
                > > > >
                > > > >So, what you have here are about 80% of the parts you would need for
                > a
                > > > >very impressive TT, for about a hundred bucks.
                > > > >
                > > > >I am not offering complete kits, ready to bolt together. I think
                > Frank
                > > > >Germano is working on that, and I believe he plans to offer a
                > complete
                > > > >kit for maybe $1500. But I am not speaking for him, nor am I trying
                > to
                > > > >quote his prices. I hope I am not too mistaken, but if I am, I
                > apologize
                > > > >in advance.
                > > > >
                > > > >What I am offering, I think, is a great jump forward in your
                > sourcing and
                > > > >fabrication of key components for making your own TT. Plus, I
                > think, a
                > > > >pretty favorable price. But you would have some work to do.
                > > > >
                > > > >And because people have their own ideas, I suspect that everyone's
                > > > >turbine would differ from everyone else's -- so we could perhaps get
                > some
                > > > >interesting comparisons.
                > > > >
                > > > >If you want these components for your TT, you would also have to
                > > > >fabricate end pieces to seal the tube. You would further need to
                > find or
                > > > >make a suitable nozzle; an energy source; star washers; and
                > bearings.
                > > > >The end pieces could easily be made from 1/4" or 3/8" steel plate,
                > or
                > > > >perhaps stainless steel if you wish. The star washers can be made
                > from
                > > > >stainless steel, such as that offered above. They will carry some
                > of the
                > > > >load, to be sure, but with titanium used for the disks I think you
                > will
                > > > >not get any warping or other deformation of the washers.
                > > > >
                > > > >We have seen a great many postings about the TT on these lists, but
                > there
                > > > >has been a dismal shortage of hard data and personal experiences
                > about
                > > > >the performance of such machines. Lots of people have talked about
                > > > >building a TT for use in everything from lawnmowers to jet powered
                > boats,
                > > > >but we have not yet seen any results.
                > > > >
                > > > >For these reasons, I am offering the foregoing ways to simplify and
                > > > >reduce the cost of your work, plus making possible a higher
                > performance
                > > > >machine -- in the hope that the Tesla lists will soon burgeon with
                > > > >real-world data, experiences, advice, and applications.
                > > > >
                > > > >Kent
                >
                > ________________________________________________________________
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                >
              • Kent L. Aldershof
                Hi Mike, Marshall, and all, Yep, that guy is still around. And still with a supply of titanium disks, shafts, and some other stuff. Go round up some cash,
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 13 5:58 PM
                  Hi Mike, Marshall, and all,

                  Yep, that guy is still around. And still with a supply of titanium
                  disks, shafts, and some other stuff. Go round up some cash, Mike, and
                  we'll deal on the items needed to build your turbine.

                  Marshall, titanium is pound for pound at least five times as strong as
                  steel, and it has a higher melting point. Also has more abrasion
                  resistance. That's why they use it to build Mach 3 aircraft, space
                  shuttles, and the like. A titanium disk of .020" is every bit as strong
                  as the much heavier steel disk of .050".

                  You can build a TT with steel disks, which won't warp when you pour the
                  energy to it, but you would have to make it inordinately heavy and broad.
                  For certain applications, the extra size and weight may not make a
                  difference, but of course the heavier it is the longer it will take to
                  get up to speed or to change speeds under load.

                  Moreover, if you use extra-thick steel disks so that they won't warp
                  (very much), you can run into serious balance problems. With all of that
                  extra mass rotating, the internal stresses can get pretty high. The
                  least bit of imbalance, or the smallest internal flaw or scratch on the
                  steel disk, can cause it to explode at very high RPM.

                  This could produce an exciting spray of shrapnel, carrying all the way to
                  the next county, unless an extraordinarily strong (and weighty) case was
                  provided (or unless your body were to absorb the shrapnel discharge,
                  reducing its velocity as it passes through your flesh and bone).

                  If you are going to build a high-energy TT, then you should use materials
                  that are suitable for very high-stress and severe environments. There is
                  certainly some upper limit, past which no amount of steel is going to be
                  as good as using a disk of titanium or inconel. Just as your grandad
                  told you, if you're going to the trouble of doing it, then you had best
                  do it right.

                  For a high-power, high-speed TT, that means building a titanium runner --
                  no matter how much cheaper or easier it might be to use steel.

                  Going the other direction, some people on this list have built
                  demonstration TTs using CD disks, Lucite, and even paper. There are
                  circumstances where such materials are suitable, if for example you are
                  powering the TT with your breath. But even if you are going to run it
                  with just your air compressor, you had better switch to a stronger
                  material, such as high-temper aluminum or stainless steel. Going into
                  even more severe conditions, and higher speeds or higher power, means
                  that you have to discard steel and move up to the next-better material --
                  which is, to me, titanium.

                  Kent


                  Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:31:10 -0500
                  From: Mike Passerotti <mpasserotti@...>
                  Subject: RE: group question

                  There was a guy on the list who almost had me sold on buying ti disks and
                  shaft. But the cash flow wasn't there yet. So I hope he's still there
                  to
                  answer your questions.

                  Mike Passerotti - Software Engineer
                  MedPlus Web Development Team
                  8805 Governor's Hill Drive, Suite 100
                  Cincinnati, OH 45249
                  (513) 697-3200 xt 350
                  (513) 583-8885 Fax
                  mpasserotti@...


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: adiutores@... [mailto:adiutores@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 1:21 PM
                  To: TeslaTurbine@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [TeslaTurbine] group question


                  Hi! I am enjoying the group discussion and the information on this
                  site very much. I have a general question to ask of the group about
                  metals. If I understand correctly one of the principle difficulties
                  encoutered is the discs warping at high temperatures? If that is
                  correct, have any of the members, or does anyone no of someone who
                  has tested titanium alloy or tantalum or niobium (although there
                  might be magnetic difficulties) or Haynes 188?

                  Just curious,

                  thanks,

                  Marshall Parks



                  ________________________________________________________________
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                  Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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                • the_maniacal_engineer
                  There are some things in this post which don t quite mesh with my understanding of material science. Comments are included in-line. ... wrote: ... as
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 14, 2002
                    There are some things in this post which don't quite mesh with my
                    understanding of material science. Comments are included in-line.

                    --- In TeslaTurbine@y..., "Kent L. Aldershof" <Aldershof-MSI@J...>
                    wrote:

                    <snip>

                    > Marshall, titanium is pound for pound at least five times as strong
                    as
                    > steel, and it has a higher melting point. Also has more abrasion
                    > resistance. That's why they use it to build Mach 3 aircraft, space
                    > shuttles, and the like. A titanium disk of .020" is every bit as
                    strong
                    > as the much heavier steel disk of .050".

                    <snip>

                    Titanium and steel both have similar tensile strengths, somewhere
                    between 125~200kpsi, depending on temper. Ti metallurgy is complicated
                    with alpha and beta phase alloys, similar in concept to the idea of
                    martensitic and austenitic steels.

                    <snip>

                    >
                    > You can build a TT with steel disks, which won't warp when you pour
                    the
                    > energy to it, but you would have to make it inordinately heavy and
                    broad.

                    <snip>

                    Ti has the strength of steel, but the stiffness is closer to that of
                    aluminum, the density is somewhere in between. So Ti structures have a
                    lower frequency than the equivalent in Al or steel.

                    <snip>

                    > extra mass rotating, the internal stresses can get pretty high. The
                    > least bit of imbalance, or the smallest internal flaw or scratch on
                    the
                    > steel disk, can cause it to explode at very high RPM.
                    >
                    > This could produce an exciting spray of shrapnel, carrying all the
                    way to
                    > the next county,

                    <snip>

                    This is true for ANY rotating machinery, The amount of energy that is
                    released in the failure is the rotational kinetic energy (substantial)
                    minus the energy it takes to rupture the disc (usually very small)

                    <snip>

                    >
                    > If you are going to build a high-energy TT, then you should use
                    materials
                    > that are suitable for very high-stress and severe environments.
                    There is
                    > certainly some upper limit, past which no amount of steel is going
                    to be
                    > as good as using a disk of titanium or inconel.

                    <snip>

                    Titanium is nice, but it isn't kryptonite or anything either. At high
                    temperatures it is sensitive to Chlorine and other halogens, as well
                    as cadmium. On the SR-71 (the aforementioned mach 3 airplane) ALL
                    tools had to be specially treated and periodically checked to make
                    sure that they had no cadmium. Parts had to be heat treated in
                    specially de-chlorinated water. No PVC, neoprene, or other chlorinated
                    polymer could be used on the plane. A better material might be rene41,
                    waspalloy, or hastelloy. regardless - use a scatter shield (blast
                    shield is a better term) The SR-71 air conditioning turbine/compressor
                    set (with known defects) was spun up to 120 KRPM in qual testing and
                    when it failed the pieces were unrecognizable - a lot of energy.
                    released in a short time - enormous power - like dynamite.

                    Chris
                    P.E. and former SR-71 environmental control system Engineer
                  • nailzer
                    Is the person that was selling titanium disks still around? I read some earlier posts about the disks he was selling and was wondering if he had anymore for
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jul 28, 2003
                      Is the person that was selling titanium disks still around? I read
                      some earlier posts about the disks he was selling and was wondering
                      if he had anymore for sale.
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