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Re: [dm-discuss] Tags/Keywords usage?

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  • Gabriel Tanase
    Hello again, David, I ve given you some pointers to lists of taxonomy tools in a previous reply. On reflection though, I don t think you need standalone
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 6 12:47 AM
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      Hello again, David,

      I've given you some pointers to lists of taxonomy tools in a previous reply.
      On reflection though, I don't think you need standalone taxonomy editors, desktop or otherwise.

      What I think you're after is a desktop / individual-level CRM package with
      - basic CRM functionality for your entities of interest: companies and people, including capacity to define 'custom' attributes for entities
      - document and links management, allowing attachment of documents, clippings, URLs etc. to those entity records
      and the following add-ons:
      - a glossary / taxonomy editor which allows you to define
        - tags, including definitions for them (which is what I assume you mean when talking about "attaching meaning to tags")
        - relationships between tags (to relate tags / terms as synonyms, related terms, more specialized / more generic terms - all standard taxonomy stuff, which does NOT restrict you to a hierarchical structure)
      - a search facility that allows searching your database of entities using not only standard and custom entity attributes, but also the tags and relationships between these

      It is especially the last part - the search capability using taxonomy-organized tags - that I don't think exists in any desktop-level CRM package. I'd love to hear from others I am wrong - which is why I am copying this to the taxonomy group.

       
      Kind regards,
      Gabriel
      ----------
      http://ie.linkedin.com/in/gabrieltanase


      On 4 August 2011 16:33, deddy205ar <deddy@...> wrote:
      All -

      Do folks here in their metadata duties make use of tags/keywords?
      (I'm using "tag" & "keyword" as synonyms.  Tag is easier to type than
      keyword.)

      I've found tags very useful for organizing digital stuff when there's no
      SINGLE correct way of organizing.

      BUT... there are challenges:

      - so far I've not found any mechanism to hang meaning(s) to a tag

      - the synonym problem (I put "SaaS" into my list... & later put "Cloud
      Computing" in also... & later found the hidden redundancy).

      Suggestions, pointers, help?


      This may not be the right forum for this question, but worth a try...

      - David



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    • Evert Jagerman
      Please take a look at Knowledge Plaza. this has docs, people andvtags in it webadress is http://www.knowledgeplaza.net greetings evert Sent from my iPad
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 6 4:59 PM
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        Please take a look at Knowledge Plaza. this has docs, people andvtags in it
        webadress is http://www.knowledgeplaza.net

        greetings

        evert

        Sent from my iPad
      • Alice
        David and Gabriel, I ve been eager to see what develops on this, beyond the one specific tool suggested. I expect it will be hard to meet the requirements
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 8 7:04 PM
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          David and Gabriel,

          I've been eager to see what develops on this, beyond the one specific tool suggested. I expect it will be hard to meet the requirements outlined below in a CRM system. Several of the features are integral parts of taxonomy management, but are very unlikely to be found in other than dedicated taxonomy tools. Even taxonomy modules offered in content management systems don't have this degree of "standard taxonomy stuff". To achieve these functions, it will probably be necessary to link a strong dedicated taxonomy tool to whatever software is chosen to meet the other needs.

          Alice

          --- In TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com, Gabriel Tanase <gabtanase@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello again, David,
          >
          > I've given you some pointers to lists of taxonomy tools in a previous reply.
          > On reflection though, I don't think you need standalone taxonomy editors,
          > desktop or otherwise.
          >
          > What I think you're after is a desktop / individual-level CRM package with
          > - basic CRM functionality for your entities of interest: companies and
          > people, including capacity to define 'custom' attributes for entities
          > - document and links management, allowing attachment of documents,
          > clippings, URLs etc. to those entity records
          > and the following add-ons:
          > - a glossary / taxonomy editor which allows you to define
          > - tags, including definitions for them (which is what I assume you mean
          > when talking about "attaching meaning to tags")
          > - relationships between tags (to relate tags / terms as synonyms, related
          > terms, more specialized / more generic terms - all standard taxonomy stuff,
          > which does NOT restrict you to a hierarchical structure)
          > - a search facility that allows searching your database of entities using
          > not only standard and custom entity attributes, but also the tags and
          > relationships between these
          >
          > It is especially the last part - the search capability using
          > taxonomy-organized tags - that I don't think exists in any desktop-level CRM
          > package. I'd love to hear from others I am wrong - which is why I am copying
          > this to the taxonomy group.
          >
          >
          > Kind regards,
          > Gabriel
          > ----------
          > http://ie.linkedin.com/in/gabrieltanase
          >
          >
          > On 4 August 2011 16:33, deddy205ar <deddy@...> wrote:
          >
          > > All -
          > >
          > > Do folks here in their metadata duties make use of tags/keywords?
          > > (I'm using "tag" & "keyword" as synonyms. Tag is easier to type than
          > > keyword.)
          > >
          > > I've found tags very useful for organizing digital stuff when there's no
          > > SINGLE correct way of organizing.
          > >
          > > BUT... there are challenges:
          > >
          > > - so far I've not found any mechanism to hang meaning(s) to a tag
          > >
          > > - the synonym problem (I put "SaaS" into my list... & later put "Cloud
          > > Computing" in also... & later found the hidden redundancy).
          > >
          > > Suggestions, pointers, help?
          > >
          > >
          > > This may not be the right forum for this question, but worth a try...
          > >
          > > - David
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > ----------------------------------------------------
          > > Post message: dm-discuss@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subscribe: dm-discuss-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > Unsubscribe: dm-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > List owner: dm-discuss-owner@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          >
        • deddy205ar
          Alice - Let it be said that I am NOT looking to taxonomy to help. I just don t think taxonomy is the right approach for this issue. In the context of using
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 8 8:52 PM
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            Alice -

            Let it be said that I am NOT looking to taxonomy to help. I just don't think
            taxonomy is the right approach for this issue.

            In the context of using two CRMs (both with highly similar tag/keyword
            mechanisms) I focus on findability over hierarchical organization.

            A fundamental challenge is that I cannot export the tags out of the CRM.
            Therefore I'm restricted to a tiny window that only shows twenty tags at
            a time.

            I could potentially pull the tags out to a spreadsheet, but the synchronization
            effort would be ugly. So far I'm assuming there are no individual use
            taxonomy tools (for Macintosh). Perhaps a glossary tool?


            This particular CRM has a wonderful search mechanism... don't know what
            the precise term is... "type ahead" perhaps? As I enter characters the list
            gets shorter & shorter. Very powerful. Very fast. No special characters or
            operators. When searching for a company, entering 4 keystrokes is heavy
            typing.

            But search is only useful when I know what I'm looking for.

            Tags work when I want to know say who has "DBMS - Model 204". Or maybe
            "DBMS - Model 204" and "DBMS - DB2".

            However there's trouble when I'm not paying attention, already have "SaaS"
            in the keyword list & enter "Cloud Computing"... synonyms as far as I'm
            concerned. Notice that the "C" & the "S" are far apart & therefore hard to see.

            - David


            --- In TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com, "Alice" <aredmondneal@...> wrote:
            >
            > David and Gabriel,
            >
            > I've been eager to see what develops on this, beyond the one specific tool suggested. I expect it will be hard to meet the requirements outlined below in a CRM system. Several of the features are integral parts of taxonomy management, but are very unlikely to be found in other than dedicated taxonomy tools. Even taxonomy modules offered in content management systems don't have this degree of "standard taxonomy stuff". To achieve these functions, it will probably be necessary to link a strong dedicated taxonomy tool to whatever software is chosen to meet the other needs.
            >
            > Alice
            >
            > --- In TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com, Gabriel Tanase <gabtanase@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello again, David,
            > >
            > > I've given you some pointers to lists of taxonomy tools in a previous reply.
            > > On reflection though, I don't think you need standalone taxonomy editors,
            > > desktop or otherwise.
            > >
            > > What I think you're after is a desktop / individual-level CRM package with
            > > - basic CRM functionality for your entities of interest: companies and
            > > people, including capacity to define 'custom' attributes for entities
            > > - document and links management, allowing attachment of documents,
            > > clippings, URLs etc. to those entity records
            > > and the following add-ons:
            > > - a glossary / taxonomy editor which allows you to define
            > > - tags, including definitions for them (which is what I assume you mean
            > > when talking about "attaching meaning to tags")
            > > - relationships between tags (to relate tags / terms as synonyms, related
            > > terms, more specialized / more generic terms - all standard taxonomy stuff,
            > > which does NOT restrict you to a hierarchical structure)
            > > - a search facility that allows searching your database of entities using
            > > not only standard and custom entity attributes, but also the tags and
            > > relationships between these
            > >
            > > It is especially the last part - the search capability using
            > > taxonomy-organized tags - that I don't think exists in any desktop-level CRM
            > > package. I'd love to hear from others I am wrong - which is why I am copying
            > > this to the taxonomy group.
            > >
            > >
            > > Kind regards,
            > > Gabriel
            > > ----------
            > > http://ie.linkedin.com/in/gabrieltanase
            > >
            > >
            > > On 4 August 2011 16:33, deddy205ar <deddy@> wrote:
            > >
            > > > All -
            > > >
            > > > Do folks here in their metadata duties make use of tags/keywords?
            > > > (I'm using "tag" & "keyword" as synonyms. Tag is easier to type than
            > > > keyword.)
            > > >
            > > > I've found tags very useful for organizing digital stuff when there's no
            > > > SINGLE correct way of organizing.
            > > >
            > > > BUT... there are challenges:
            > > >
            > > > - so far I've not found any mechanism to hang meaning(s) to a tag
            > > >
            > > > - the synonym problem (I put "SaaS" into my list... & later put "Cloud
            > > > Computing" in also... & later found the hidden redundancy).
            > > >
            > > > Suggestions, pointers, help?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > This may not be the right forum for this question, but worth a try...
            > > >
            > > > - David
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ------------------------------------
            > > >
            > > > ----------------------------------------------------
            > > > Post message: dm-discuss@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Subscribe: dm-discuss-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Unsubscribe: dm-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > > List owner: dm-discuss-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Gabriel Tanase
            Hi David, As many others, you still seem to believe that a taxonomy, any taxonomy, imposes a strict hierarchical organization on the classified things. It does
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 9 2:11 AM
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              Hi David,

              As many others, you still seem to believe that a taxonomy, any taxonomy, imposes a strict hierarchical organization on the classified things.
              It does not need to be this way. Today's tools are smarter; they allow you to create both hierarchical and non-hierarchical relationships between terms. Might be too much trouble for simple uses, but the capability is there.

              Regarding existing tags versus new tags, which you'd want to become synonyms (or at least related terms):
              As you correctly pointed out, no system can guess synonymy without definitions attached.
              However, once definitions are entered, relatively simple text analysis, coupled with a taxonomy management feature allowing synonym relationships between terms, can address your requirement of alerting you that you've defined a new tag "Cloud Computing" when you already have "SaaS" defined with a definition that passes the 'similarity' threshold.
              I guess that, strictly speaking, this alerting would also work without taxonomy support, however I do believe that the presence of taxonomy features would make it easier to get to the end goal.

              Anyway, since you're not looking to taxonomy for help... none of this should matter ;-)


              I also have to say that your requirement for fast finding is somewhat extreme.
              Expecting to find the correct record by just typing 3 characters or less, even when you know "exactly" what you're looking for, is, IMHO, just not realistic when working with large entity / document sets.
              To take an example that is surely familiar: imagine your CRM is not storing just one record representing IBM Corporation (and all its subsidiaries and legal entities), instead you have separate records, at least one for all IBM major subsidiaries and country-level legal entities. Where does typing "IBM" leave your search result set?


              Kind regards,
              Gabriel
              ----------
              http://ie.linkedin.com/in/gabrieltanase


              On 9 August 2011 04:52, deddy205ar <deddy@...> wrote:


              Alice -

              Let it be said that I am NOT looking to taxonomy to help.  I just don't think
              taxonomy is the right approach for this issue.

              In the context of using two CRMs (both with highly similar tag/keyword
              mechanisms) I focus on findability over hierarchical organization.

              A fundamental challenge is that I cannot export the tags out of the CRM.
              Therefore I'm restricted to a tiny window that only shows twenty tags at
              a time.

              I could potentially pull the tags out to a spreadsheet, but the synchronization
              effort would be ugly.   So far I'm assuming there are no individual use
              taxonomy tools (for Macintosh).  Perhaps a glossary tool?


              This particular CRM has a wonderful search mechanism... don't know what
              the precise term is... "type ahead" perhaps?  As I enter characters the list
              gets shorter & shorter.  Very powerful.  Very fast.  No special characters or
              operators.  When searching for a company, entering 4 keystrokes is heavy
              typing.

              But search is only useful when I know what I'm looking for.

              Tags work when I want to know say who has "DBMS - Model 204".  Or maybe
              "DBMS - Model 204" and "DBMS - DB2".

              However there's trouble when I'm not paying attention, already have "SaaS"
              in the keyword list & enter "Cloud Computing"... synonyms as far as I'm
              concerned.  Notice that the "C" & the "S" are far apart & therefore hard to see.

              - David


              --- In TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com, "Alice" <aredmondneal@...> wrote:
              >
              > David and Gabriel,
              >
              > I've been eager to see what develops on this, beyond the one specific tool suggested. I expect it will be hard to meet the requirements outlined below in a CRM system. Several of the features are integral parts of taxonomy management, but are very unlikely to be found in other than dedicated taxonomy tools. Even taxonomy modules offered in content management systems don't have this degree of "standard taxonomy stuff". To achieve these functions, it will probably be necessary to link a strong dedicated taxonomy tool to whatever software is chosen to meet the other needs.
              >
              > Alice
              >


            • deddy205ar
              Gabe - ... From what I ve read (many times)... taxonomy = hierarchy. I m just believing what I ve read. Have I been misled? Is taxonomy being abused? ...
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 9 6:32 AM
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                Gabe -


                --- In TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com, Gabriel Tanase <gabtanase@...> wrote:

                >
                > As many others, you still seem to believe that a taxonomy, any taxonomy,
                > imposes a strict hierarchical organization on the classified things.

                From what I've read (many times)... taxonomy = hierarchy. I'm just believing
                what I've read. Have I been misled? Is "taxonomy" being abused?


                >
                > Anyway, since you're not looking to taxonomy for help... none of this should
                > matter ;-)
                >

                If there's something that would help & it's called "dirt" I'd take a look.



                >
                > I also have to say that your requirement for fast finding is somewhat
                > extreme.
                >

                Not at all extreme. I've got it & it works. I assume such functionality is
                built into other tools.

                If I enter "BM" I get a list of 50, this time including DBMS & WebMethods.


                >
                > Expecting to find *the* correct record by just typing 3 characters or less,
                > even when you know "exactly" what you're looking for, is, IMHO, just not
                > realistic when working with large entity / document sets.
                > To take an example that is surely familiar: imagine your CRM is not storing
                > just one record representing IBM Corporation (and all its subsidiaries and
                > legal entities), instead you have separate records, at least one for all IBM
                > major subsidiaries and country-level legal entities. Where does typing "IBM"
                > leave your search result set?
                >

                By typing "IBM" I get a list of 46 IBM locations & from there I can focus on what
                I want... including "IBM Corp. - Ireland" (Ok... out-of-date, but close enough for
                memory.)

                But this searchability is not what my problem is.

                I need something to "control" the tags in my tag list.

                - David
              • Claude Baudoin
                Hello, Taxonomy DOES imply hierarchy if you look at the definitions of controlled vocabularies in the Z39.19 standard. The addition of hierarchy is actually
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 10 12:21 PM
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                  Hello,

                   

                  Taxonomy DOES imply hierarchy if you look at the definitions of controlled vocabularies in the Z39.19 standard. The addition of hierarchy is actually the defining feature that makes a controlled vocabulary a taxonomy, as opposed to the level below that, synonym rings.

                   

                  But this doesn’t mean that a taxonomy is a single tree, and is strictly tree-shaped. Two things that add a twist are:

                  ·         Polyhierarchy

                  ·         Facets (in Sharepoint 2010, they actually call each facet a separate taxonomy)

                   

                  That’s my take from both reading the standard and working on a client’s taxonomy right now.

                   

                  Regards,

                  Claude Baudoin

                • Patrick Lambe
                  A matrix is also a useful taxonomy structure P Patrick Lambe weblog: www.greenchameleon.com website: www.straitsknowledge.com book: www.organisingknowledge.com
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 10 7:53 PM
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                    A matrix is also a useful taxonomy structure

                    P

                    Patrick Lambe

                    website: www.straitsknowledge.com

                    Have you seen our new KM Planning Toolkit?  








                    On Aug 11, 2011, at 3:21 AM, Claude Baudoin wrote:

                     

                    Hello,

                     

                    Taxonomy DOES imply hierarchy if you look at the definitions of controlled vocabularies in the Z39.19 standard. The addition of hierarchy is actually the defining feature that makes a controlled vocabulary a taxonomy, as opposed to the level below that, synonym rings.

                     

                    But this doesn’t mean that a taxonomy is a single tree, and is strictly tree-shaped. Two things that add a twist are:

                    ·     ;     Polyhierarchy

                    ·         Facets (in Sharepoint 2010, they actually call each facet a separate taxonomy)

                     

                    That’s my take from both reading the standard and working on a client’s taxonomy right now.

                     

                    Regards,

                    Claude Baudoin

                    < /div>


                  • Matt Moore
                    David, How many keywords do you have? How many are added per month? How many people use these systems? Who adds the keywords? Apologies if the answers to these
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 13 8:36 PM
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                      David,

                      How many keywords do you have? How many are added per month?

                      How many people use these systems?

                      Who adds the keywords?

                      Apologies if the answers to these questions have been posted already.

                      BTW the search technology you describe is called "predictive search". It's cute but it won't work miracles. You'd have to have a synonym list for it to refer to if you want it to offer synonyms.

                      Cheers,

                      Matt Moore

                      On Aug 9, 2011, at 1:52 PM, "deddy205ar" <deddy@...> wrote:

                       



                      Alice -

                      Let it be said that I am NOT looking to taxonomy to help. I just don't think
                      taxonomy is the right approach for this issue.

                      In the context of using two CRMs (both with highly similar tag/keyword
                      mechanisms) I focus on findability over hierarchical organization.

                      A fundamental challenge is that I cannot export the tags out of the CRM.
                      Therefore I'm restricted to a tiny window that only shows twenty tags at
                      a time.

                      I could potentially pull the tags out to a spreadsheet, but the synchronization
                      effort would be ugly. So far I'm assuming there are no individual use
                      taxonomy tools (for Macintosh). Perhaps a glossary tool?

                      This particular CRM has a wonderful search mechanism... don't know what
                      the precise term is... "type ahead" perhaps? As I enter characters the list
                      gets shorter & shorter. Very powerful. Very fast. No special characters or
                      operators. When searching for a company, entering 4 keystrokes is heavy
                      typing.

                      But search is only useful when I know what I'm looking for.

                      Tags work when I want to know say who has "DBMS - Model 204". Or maybe
                      "DBMS - Model 204" and "DBMS - DB2".

                      However there's trouble when I'm not paying attention, already have "SaaS"
                      in the keyword list & enter "Cloud Computing"... synonyms as far as I'm
                      concerned. Notice that the "C" & the "S" are far apart & therefore hard to see.

                      - David

                      --- In TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com, "Alice" <aredmondneal@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > David and Gabriel,
                      >
                      > I've been eager to see what develops on this, beyond the one specific tool suggested. I expect it will be hard to meet the requirements outlined below in a CRM system. Several of the features are integral parts of taxonomy management, but are very unlikely to be found in other than dedicated taxonomy tools. Even taxonomy modules offered in content management systems don't have this degree of "standard taxonomy stuff". To achieve these functions, it will probably be necessary to link a strong dedicated taxonomy tool to whatever software is chosen to meet the other needs.
                      >
                      > Alice
                      >
                      > --- In TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com, Gabriel Tanase <gabtanase@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello again, David,
                      > >
                      > > I've given you some pointers to lists of taxonomy tools in a previous reply.
                      > > On reflection though, I don't think you need standalone taxonomy editors,
                      > > desktop or otherwise.
                      > >
                      > > What I think you're after is a desktop / individual-level CRM package with
                      > > - basic CRM functionality for your entities of interest: companies and
                      > > people, including capacity to define 'custom' attributes for entities
                      > > - document and links management, allowing attachment of documents,
                      > > clippings, URLs etc. to those entity records
                      > > and the following add-ons:
                      > > - a glossary / taxonomy editor which allows you to define
                      > > - tags, including definitions for them (which is what I assume you mean
                      > > when talking about "attaching meaning to tags")
                      > > - relationships between tags (to relate tags / terms as synonyms, related
                      > > terms, more specialized / more generic terms - all standard taxonomy stuff,
                      > > which does NOT restrict you to a hierarchical structure)
                      > > - a search facility that allows searching your database of entities using
                      > > not only standard and custom entity attributes, but also the tags and
                      > > relationships between these
                      > >
                      > > It is especially the last part - the search capability using
                      > > taxonomy-organized tags - that I don't think exists in any desktop-level CRM
                      > > package. I'd love to hear from others I am wrong - which is why I am copying
                      > > this to the taxonomy group.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Kind regards,
                      > > Gabriel
                      > > ----------
                      > > http://ie.linkedin.com/in/gabrieltanase
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On 4 August 2011 16:33, deddy205ar <deddy@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > All -
                      > > >
                      > > > Do folks here in their metadata duties make use of tags/keywords?
                      > > > (I'm using "tag" & "keyword" as synonyms. Tag is easier to type than
                      > > > keyword.)
                      > > >
                      > > > I've found tags very useful for organizing digital stuff when there's no
                      > > > SINGLE correct way of organizing.
                      > > >
                      > > > BUT... there are challenges:
                      > > >
                      > > > - so far I've not found any mechanism to hang meaning(s) to a tag
                      > > >
                      > > > - the synonym problem (I put "SaaS" into my list... & later put "Cloud
                      > > > Computing" in also... & later found the hidden redundancy).
                      > > >
                      > > > Suggestions, pointers, help?
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > This may not be the right forum for this question, but worth a try...
                      > > >
                      > > > - David
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > ----------------------------------------------------
                      > > > Post message: dm-discuss@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Subscribe: dm-discuss-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Unsubscribe: dm-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > List owner: dm-discuss-owner@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >

                    • deddy205ar
                      Matt - Don t know how many tags (synonym for keyword for me... quicker to type) I have since there s no practical way to count them. Previous system got up to
                      Message 10 of 10 , Aug 31 5:12 AM
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                        Matt -

                        Don't know how many tags (synonym for keyword for me... quicker to type) I have since there's no practical way to count them.

                        Previous system got up to about 800 in 10 different "categories" over 15 years of use.

                        I'm the only person who uses the system & adds tags.

                        Since it is a multi-user/client-server system, I do need to ask what happens when multiple users want to add tags? Maybe only an administrator can do that? Just don't know.

                        - David


                        --- In TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com, Matt Moore <innotecture@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > David,
                        >
                        > How many keywords do you have? How many are added per month?
                        >
                        > How many people use these systems?
                        >
                        > Who adds the keywords?
                        >
                        > Apologies if the answers to these questions have been posted already.
                        >
                        > BTW the search technology you describe is called "predictive search". It's cute but it won't work miracles. You'd have to have a synonym list for it to refer to if you want it to offer synonyms.
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        >
                        > Matt Moore
                        >
                        > On Aug 9, 2011, at 1:52 PM, "deddy205ar" <deddy@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Alice -
                        > >
                        > > Let it be said that I am NOT looking to taxonomy to help. I just don't think
                        > > taxonomy is the right approach for this issue.
                        > >
                        > > In the context of using two CRMs (both with highly similar tag/keyword
                        > > mechanisms) I focus on findability over hierarchical organization.
                        > >
                        > > A fundamental challenge is that I cannot export the tags out of the CRM.
                        > > Therefore I'm restricted to a tiny window that only shows twenty tags at
                        > > a time.
                        > >
                        > > I could potentially pull the tags out to a spreadsheet, but the synchronization
                        > > effort would be ugly. So far I'm assuming there are no individual use
                        > > taxonomy tools (for Macintosh). Perhaps a glossary tool?
                        > >
                        > > This particular CRM has a wonderful search mechanism... don't know what
                        > > the precise term is... "type ahead" perhaps? As I enter characters the list
                        > > gets shorter & shorter. Very powerful. Very fast. No special characters or
                        > > operators. When searching for a company, entering 4 keystrokes is heavy
                        > > typing.
                        > >
                        > > But search is only useful when I know what I'm looking for.
                        > >
                        > > Tags work when I want to know say who has "DBMS - Model 204". Or maybe
                        > > "DBMS - Model 204" and "DBMS - DB2".
                        > >
                        > > However there's trouble when I'm not paying attention, already have "SaaS"
                        > > in the keyword list & enter "Cloud Computing"... synonyms as far as I'm
                        > > concerned. Notice that the "C" & the "S" are far apart & therefore hard to see.
                        > >
                        > > - David
                        > >
                        > > --- In TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com, "Alice" <aredmondneal@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > David and Gabriel,
                        > > >
                        > > > I've been eager to see what develops on this, beyond the one specific tool suggested. I expect it will be hard to meet the requirements outlined below in a CRM system. Several of the features are integral parts of taxonomy management, but are very unlikely to be found in other than dedicated taxonomy tools. Even taxonomy modules offered in content management systems don't have this degree of "standard taxonomy stuff". To achieve these functions, it will probably be necessary to link a strong dedicated taxonomy tool to whatever software is chosen to meet the other needs.
                        > > >
                        > > > Alice
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com, Gabriel Tanase <gabtanase@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hello again, David,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I've given you some pointers to lists of taxonomy tools in a previous reply.
                        > > > > On reflection though, I don't think you need standalone taxonomy editors,
                        > > > > desktop or otherwise.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > What I think you're after is a desktop / individual-level CRM package with
                        > > > > - basic CRM functionality for your entities of interest: companies and
                        > > > > people, including capacity to define 'custom' attributes for entities
                        > > > > - document and links management, allowing attachment of documents,
                        > > > > clippings, URLs etc. to those entity records
                        > > > > and the following add-ons:
                        > > > > - a glossary / taxonomy editor which allows you to define
                        > > > > - tags, including definitions for them (which is what I assume you mean
                        > > > > when talking about "attaching meaning to tags")
                        > > > > - relationships between tags (to relate tags / terms as synonyms, related
                        > > > > terms, more specialized / more generic terms - all standard taxonomy stuff,
                        > > > > which does NOT restrict you to a hierarchical structure)
                        > > > > - a search facility that allows searching your database of entities using
                        > > > > not only standard and custom entity attributes, but also the tags and
                        > > > > relationships between these
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It is especially the last part - the search capability using
                        > > > > taxonomy-organized tags - that I don't think exists in any desktop-level CRM
                        > > > > package. I'd love to hear from others I am wrong - which is why I am copying
                        > > > > this to the taxonomy group.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Kind regards,
                        > > > > Gabriel
                        > > > > ----------
                        > > > > http://ie.linkedin.com/in/gabrieltanase
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On 4 August 2011 16:33, deddy205ar <deddy@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > All -
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Do folks here in their metadata duties make use of tags/keywords?
                        > > > > > (I'm using "tag" & "keyword" as synonyms. Tag is easier to type than
                        > > > > > keyword.)
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I've found tags very useful for organizing digital stuff when there's no
                        > > > > > SINGLE correct way of organizing.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > BUT... there are challenges:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > - so far I've not found any mechanism to hang meaning(s) to a tag
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > - the synonym problem (I put "SaaS" into my list... & later put "Cloud
                        > > > > > Computing" in also... & later found the hidden redundancy).
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Suggestions, pointers, help?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > This may not be the right forum for this question, but worth a try...
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > - David
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ------------------------------------
                        > > > > >
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                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
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