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4123RE: [TaxoCoP] Re: Fwd: [CODE4LIB] TemaTres 1.4 released! : TemaTres is an open source vocabulary server

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  • Seth Earley
    Aug 2, 2011
    • 0 Attachment

      Thank you Patrick.  I appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts.  I would say you accurately conveyed the dilemma and position.  We do have a taxonomy tool called Wordmap, which we have not spent any time promoting here on the list. 

       

      I do welcome the examination of boundaries and would like to have additional people making the assessments.  In fact I would invite anyone who has a point of view to help us review and update policies.  Please contact Sharon@... off list if you would be interested in moderating, helping to produce programs, conducting research, contacting vendors, etc in support of the goals of the community. 

       

      We might have a vendor focused call series that we can run from time to time.  Or invite customers of vendors to present their experiences with particular tools.

       

      I agree with your points Patrick about what makes a vendor relationship a problem.   I enjoy interesting technology but don’t like some of the tactics I have seen over the years used by some companies. (Which goes for services firms as well as product firms…)

       

      In any case, this is a good opportunity to decide on the future direction of the list.  Here is one comment I received off list:

       

      “I'm on a discussion group with over 3400 members.  The list owner is VERY VERY strict about his no advertising policy.  That would include the 'educational' webinars as well.  No advertising is no advertising.  Some very large and busy groups have a strict policy except for one day a week "Off-Topic Monday" for instance.  “

       

      There are a range of possibilities that can be explored.  I would like to have a volunteer lead this effort to define policies (which takes the focus from my nefarious plans.  <smile>)  We can set up a call to discuss with interested parties and draft a new set of guidelines.  We can then reach out to software vendors and solicit contributions if that makes sense. 

       

      Seth

       

      Seth Earley

      CEO
      _____________________________

      EARLEY & ASSOCIATES, Inc.
      Cell: 781-820-8080

      Email: seth@...  

      Web: www.earley.com

       

      Follow me on twitter: sethearley

      Connect with me on  LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/sethearley   

       

      From: TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Lambe
      Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 4:29 AM
      To: TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [TaxoCoP] Re: Fwd: [CODE4LIB] TemaTres 1.4 released! : TemaTres is an open source vocabulary server

       

       

      I didn't think from Seth's original email that he was trying to shut down such contributions. I thought he was reminding us of a convention we've had, and inviting us to consider whether we wanted to change that.

       

      All of my three-person company are actively involved in a non-profit KM society here in Singapore. So I know that there are occupational hazards in being a vendor when you are also seeking to promote professional knowledge in a non-profit setting. It's so easy to be accused of self-interest. And it's difficult to balance the legitimate demands of a business (earn enough money to pay my employees and my family) with giving away free time and expertise and helping other people learn with no certain tangible reward from it.

       

      I think one needs to have a certain level of conscious altruism to do it (ie not be so conscious of ROI matters when contributing - you'd go crazy). I think one needs to have a very clear sense of role-shift - community role vs market/business role, and not mix them up. But it is extremely disappointing when what you consider to be altruistic contributions (no tangible rewards) seem to be thrown back at you as "you're just doing free marketing". I can't see into Seth's mind, but I can remember occasions when the phrase "ungrateful bastards" has gone through my mind. Of course, all this is in the heat of the moment - and the few people who criticise too easily overshadow the many people who are appreciative.

       

      My own sense of Seth's engagement in this forum is that he is very good at managing the distinction/balance between business interest and community interest. If anything I suspect this discussion arises from hyper-sensitivity on his part about vendor technology pitches, because he has an interest in a technology tool and is ultra-cautious about letting that affect his participation here. So I actually think some of the disingenuity comments are rather unfair, although I accept they may reflect genuine perceptions.

       

      Good professional forums (and this is a good one) don't happen spontaneously - somebody needs to steward them, and I think we should credit Seth (and other key contributors) for providing that very steady stewardship.

       

      To me the key question is, WOULD we be flooded with irritating and non-educational vendor pitches if we allowed the kind of emails that started this? Well I think not, if we say we only want messages of major releases or initiatives or features, and no more than one announcement - ie set boundaries, and then make sure the first couple of people to cross the boundary are clearly reminded. We are adults, after all.

       

      I agree with the members who say that the technology piece is a useful one to know about. Vendors are not evil just because they are vendors. They are evil when they tell lies, spam us, or waste our time. And we should want vendors of good products and services to make money, otherwise how do we buy good products and services, and how do we learn from the expertise they put into their products and services?

       

      This still leaves Seth with a hyper-sensitivity problem - if vendor emails are allowed, he'll still be open to accusations of over-exploiting that opportunity if his company happens to make better use of the facility than other vendors. Maybe the solution is to broaden the circle of moderators, so he doesn't have to attract all the slings and arrows of outraged taxonomists every time he - quite correctly - invites us to consider the boundaries we want to put in place for ourselves.

       

      P

       

      Patrick Lambe

       

      website: www.straitsknowledge.com

       

      Have you seen our new KM Planning Toolkit?  

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

      On Aug 2, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Seth Earley wrote:



       

       

      Hi Matt,

       

      There has never been any restriction on announcements from other companies as long as they focused on a topic of interest to the group.  There have been many announcements of Webinars  and conferences on this list over the years other than those produced by my organization.

       

      I find it hard to believe that you think our topics are not of interest to KM professionals.  According to my records you have been to a few out of the over 100 calls that we have delivered over the past five years.   We consistently hear that our events are of value and provide free approaches and methodologies for the community. 

       

      Here is a note I sent to a couple of folks off list.  I am sending this so that people understand the perspective that I have on this group and how I will adapt the group to suit the needs of the community . 

       

      -------

      Vendor Pitches versus Educational Calls:

       

      As one of my notes indicated, yes, our calls are part of a marketing activity.  However we do not pitch our services as the topic of the call.  I think there is a difference between doing a call as education and getting some marketing out of that versus doing a call to just sell services. 

       

      We have worked over the years to contribute to the community and educate the industry.  I have also tried to maintain a spam free tone for the group. 

       

      We give away a great deal of IP in our calls (I have been told by many people) and competitors consistently attend the calls. 

       

      So to characterize our calls as being about selling services is a little unfair in my opinion – there are more non  prospects on these calls than prospects.

       

      There is a significant cost to running these calls and in actuality, most of the attendees are not people who buy from us.  There is a pretty large group who attend call after call in some cases year after year.  We have actually been considering charging for the calls again so my comment was not flip (I realize it may have appeared that way after I sent it off)

       

      In any case, I will survey the list members to understand what kinds of information they would like to see.  If I take away the product pitching prohibition then we may see a significant change to the tone of the list.  I have nothing against vendor information, but I do see lists with a great deal of announcements without contributions of members or interactions on the list.    Many vendor pitches are little more than marketing points with little practitioner value. 

      -------------------------  

       

      As I say, there has never been a restriction on vendors promoting educational calls that were not direct product pitches.  This is consistent with most conferences where I have spoken at over the past several years.  If the group wants product pitches we can certainly accommodate this. 

       

      Your comment: “Selective enforcement (by a vendor representative, no less) of policies on who gets to post what to this list does more, I would venture, to stifle participation than additional vendor postings will. “

       

      Our policies have been consistent.  I am the list founder and have put a great deal of energy into this list maintaining a tone of helpfulness and community. I very rarely restrict any information or ban a member. (Perhaps one message and one member over the past 6 years).   The last time that I had feedback on a vendor’s product pitch was from another vendor who thought that things were being selectively enforced in the other direction – that we were letting too many vendors talk about their products. 

       

      Realize also that a call can cost several thousands of dollars and the entire call series over the past 6 years has provided less than a dozen opportunities. Clearly this is good marketing but is not effective selling.  We would be better off not putting any attention into the group and focusing on paid sponsorships of conferences where we could pitch at will… J

       

      Most of the time, these events appeal to practitioners who are interested in learning how to do these types of projects (contrary to your assertion).  But again, if people are no longer interested in these calls or have moved beyond them, we are better off charging for those who still have an interest in the topics.  As I say, I will go with a survey to get to the needs of the full group.  We’ll see. Based on this limited feedback I am leaning toward discontinuing them (which we have considered at a number of points in the past) or once again charging for the information.  

       

      There are a couple of other moderators who might want to speak up.  Or we can use this as an opportunity to recruit new moderators. 

       

      If you value this group an care about the tone, then let me know (preferably off list at this point).   If you value the free calls, let us know that as well. 

       

      Thanks. 

                                                                                                                                                                                          

      Seth

       

      Seth Earley

      CEO
      _____________________________

      EARLEY & ASSOCIATES, Inc.
      Cell: 781-820-8080

      Email: seth@...  

      Web: www.earley.com

       

      Follow me on twitter: sethearley

      Connect with me on  LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/sethearley   

       

      From: TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt Johnson
      Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 6:26 PM
      To: TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [TaxoCoP] Re: Fwd: [CODE4LIB] TemaTres 1.4 released! : TemaTres is an open source vocabulary server

       

       

      Hi Seth,

       

      If charging for the webinars would mean that vendor-related postings apart from Earley’s could also be shared with this list, then I would request that you do just that.  The number I’ve registered for over the years have been consistently oriented towards the needs of business stakeholders rather than taxonomists and other KM professionals, who I imagine (hope?) comprise a majority of the list’s membership.  Consequently, their educational value to this audience is fairly limited relative to their promotional value.

       

      Selective enforcement (by a vendor representative, no less) of policies on who gets to post what to this list does more, I would venture, to stifle participation than additional vendor postings will. 

       

      Respectfully,

       

      Matt Johnson

      Program Manager, Information Standards, eServices

      EMC Corporation

       

       

      Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 4:43 PM

      Subject: RE: [TaxoCoP] Re: Fwd: [CODE4LIB] TemaTres 1.4 released! : TemaTres is an open source vocabulary server

       

       

      Perhaps we should go back to charging for them…

      Seth

      Seth Earley

      CEO
      _____________________________

      EARLEY & ASSOCIATES, Inc.
      Cell: 781-820-8080

      Email: seth@...  

      Web: www.earley.com

      Follow me on twitter: sethearley

      Connect with me on  LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/sethearley   

      From: TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clint
      Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 4:06 PM
      To: TaxoCoP@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [TaxoCoP] Re: Fwd: [CODE4LIB] TemaTres 1.4 released! : TemaTres is an open source vocabulary server

       

      I would like to hear about any software that may help me do my job better and easier. Considering how little software there truly is for taxonomy, I wouldn't be overly concerned about the board being overrun with announcements.

      And the Seth Earley & Assoc 'educational' webinars are about selling consulting services as much as they are educational.

      Clint Elmore
      Taxonomic Data Governance Czar
      Sears Holding Corporation

      --- In mailto:TaxoCoP%40yahoogroups.com, Seth Earley <seth@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi John O',
      >
      > As the group founder I have tried to have a consistent policy around not directly promoting products and services on the list. I consider announcements around webinars to be educational as opposed to product or service promotion. Of course those are in support of a marketing effort but the events don't focus directly on a product or offering but rather on a topic of interest to the group.
      >
      > For example, a webinar might have Smartlogic as a sponsor or speaker but the topic would be about faceted search, etc
      >
      > Perhaps you can point to some instances of direct promotion so I am clear on what you consider to be inconsistent with regard to the policy. (Let's take that exchange off list since it is likely to not be of interest to the community)
      >
      > I am trying to be fair to vendors and service providers while maintaining the educational tone and purpose of the group.
      >
      > I am open to suggestions as to how this can be addressed moving forward.
      >
      > Seth
      >
      > Seth Earley
      > CEO
      > Earley & Associates, Inc
      > 781-820-8080
      > seth@...
      > www.earley.com
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: mailto:TaxoCoP%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:TaxoCoP%40yahoogroups.com>
      > To: mailto:TaxoCoP%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:TaxoCoP%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Sat Jul 30 22:27:28 2011
      > Subject: Re: [TaxoCoP] Fwd: [CODE4LIB] TemaTres 1.4 released! : TemaTres is an open source vocabulary server
      >
      >
      >
      > Seth;
      >
      > Given the long history of this group supporting paid-for services (including yours) and other products I find this admonition a bit disingeuous. You can't have it both ways, even if you disagree with the approach taken by TemaTres, so decide whether all vendors should be excluded from marketing their wares here or open it up to everyone.
      >
      > John O'
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Seth Earley [mailto:seth@...]
      > Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 02:19 PM
      > To: mailto:TaxoCoP%40yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [TaxoCoP] Fwd: [CODE4LIB] TemaTres 1.4 released! : TemaTres is an open source vocabulary server
      >
      >
      > Hi Marijane,
      >
      > Though the info is appreciated, we discourage product announcements on the list (to be fair to the other vendors).
      > I am open to suggestions as to how we might handle these in the future...
      >
      > Seth
      > Seth
      >
      > Seth Earley
      > CEO
      > Earley & Associates, Inc
      > 781-820-8080
      > seth@...
      > www.earley.com
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: mailto:TaxoCoP%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:TaxoCoP%40yahoogroups.com>
      > To: mailto:TaxoCoP%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:TaxoCoP%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Sat Jul 30 11:48:09 2011
      > Subject: [TaxoCoP] Fwd: [CODE4LIB] TemaTres 1.4 released! : TemaTres is an open source vocabulary server
      >
      >
      > Hi TaxoCoP,
      >
      > The TemaTres folks have released a new version of their vocabulary management server. Details below.
      >
      > -marijane
      >
      > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
      > From: diego ferreyra <tematres@...<mailto:tematres@...>>
      > Date: Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:56 PM
      > Subject: [CODE4LIB] TemaTres 1.4 released! : TemaTres is an open source vocabulary server
      > To: CODE4LIB@...<mailto:CODE4LIB@...>
      >
      >
      > We have the glad to invite to test the beta version of Tematres 1.4
      >
      > TemaTres is a web tool to manage, publish and exploit controlled
      > vocabularies and other formals representation of knowledge ( thesauri,
      > taxonomies, glossaries, etc) .
      >
      > This release includes the following fixes and improvements:
      >
      > - Quality indicators about controlled vocabularies
      > The Quality assurance was improved with reports about the following
      > quality indicators:
      > - Free Terms
      > - Terms without hierarchical relationships
      > - Average number of words per term
      > - Terms per N Broader terms
      > - Terms per N narrower terms and depth
      > - Terms words with not supported prefixes or suffixes
      >
      > For more details:
      > MARTÍNEZ, A.M.a et al. Concepto, forma y longitud de los términos
      > preferentes del tesauro: una
      > propuesta de indicadores de calidad. Anales de Documentación, 2010,
      > vol. 13, p. 185-195.
      > http://revistas.um.es/analesdoc/article/view/107151
      >
      > MARTÍNEZ, A.M.a et al. Indicadores para evaluar el vocabulario y la
      > estructura sistemática de un tesauro. I Jornada de Intercambio y
      > Reflexión acerca de la Investigación en Bibliotecología, La Plata, 6-7
      > de diciembre de 2010. Facultad de Humanidades y Ciencias de la
      > Educación de la Universidad Nacional de La Plata.
      > http://www.jornadabibliotecologia.fahce.unlp.edu.ar/jornada-2010/martinez
      >
      >
      >
      > - User-defined notes
      > Has been added management capabilities to manage and create
      > user-defined notes. (Thanks to Observatorio Estatal de la Discapacidad
      > - Spain: http://www.observatoriodeladiscapacidad.es/)
      >
      > - Advanced configuration options
      > Has been added detailed configuration options available to the
      > administrator of the controlled vocabulary.
      >
      > - Import controlled vocabularies
      > Now TemaTres can import controlled vocabulary from plain tagged text.
      > For example:
      >
      >
      > - IMS VDEX Scheme (Vocabulary Definition and Exchange)
      > Now with TemaTres you can Display, export and publish terms and
      > controlled vocabularies through VDEX IMS XML schema (Vocabulary
      > Definition and Exchange). http://www.imsglobal.org/vdex/
      >
      >
      > - Controlled vocabularies RESTful Services
      > TemaTres have support for web services accessible through a clear and
      > simple syntax. The service support a wide variety of queries and data
      > can be viewed in XML, JSON or SKOS-Core.
      >
      > Examples
      >
      > Status:
      > http://www.vocabularyserver.com/gemet/en/api/
      >
      > Terms beginning with the letter B:
      > http://www.vocabularyserver.com/gemet/en/api/letter/b
      > http://www.vocabularyserver.com/gemet/en/api/letter/b/skos
      > http://www.vocabularyserver.com/gemet/en/api/letter/b/json
      >
      > Search Terms :
      > http://www.vocabularyserver.com/gemet/en/api/search/fish/
      > http://www.vocabularyserver.com/gemet/en/api/search/fish/json
      > http://www.vocabularyserver.com/gemet/en/api/search/fish/skos
      >
      > Vocabulary Data
      > http://www.vocabularyserver.com/gemet/pt/api/fetchVocabularyData
      >
      > Top of vocabulary terms
      > http://www.vocabularyserver.com/gemet/pt/api/fetchTopTerms
      >
      > - Minor bugs was solved and was added some minor features
      >
      >
      >
      > Apologies for any cross-posting. Any comments and suggestions are welcomed
      >
      >
      > Diego Ferreyra
      > http://www.vocabularyserver.com<http://www.vocabularyserver.com/>
      >

       

       

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