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strength without discipline

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  • lisa
    Hi all, On Sunday morning during my stay with lawrence, I tossed the coins for an i ching reading. The original hexagram was 7, the army, with the first
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 3, 2001
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      Hi all,

      On Sunday morning during my stay with lawrence, I tossed the coins
      for an i ching reading. The original hexagram was 7, the army, with
      the first (changing) line talking about having strength without
      discipline. Wow, it was like a cane being rapped upside my head.

      Thank you, to lawrence, and the cosmic energy that is channeled
      through the text of the i ching. I've had my doubts about the
      underlying benevolence of the i ching from time to time. Perhaps I
      need to accept that it isn't the message as much as the vehicle for
      it that has been the point of speculation for me.

      I'm interested in hearing feedback on the subject of strength without
      discipline. It may be a fact that it is a 'weak' combination; yet if
      we turn to CT's essay advocating on to each his own, does one accept
      one's attributes as-is; or does one try to cultivate what is known to
      be balanced--but risk feeling forever inadequate for not getting to
      that place?

      rgds,
      lisa
    • Michael Corey
      ... Lisa, may i say... i think strength without discipline can be constructive. the path to construction need not always be focused, it just needs to be
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 4, 2001
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        >From: "lisa" <oneof10k@...>
        >Reply-To: TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com
        >To: TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [TaoTalk] strength without discipline
        >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 14:29:12 -0000
        >
        >Hi all,
        >
        >On Sunday morning during my stay with lawrence, I tossed the coins
        >for an i ching reading. The original hexagram was 7, the army, with
        >the first (changing) line talking about having strength without
        >discipline. Wow, it was like a cane being rapped upside my head.
        >
        >Thank you, to lawrence, and the cosmic energy that is channeled
        >through the text of the i ching. I've had my doubts about the
        >underlying benevolence of the i ching from time to time. Perhaps I
        >need to accept that it isn't the message as much as the vehicle for
        >it that has been the point of speculation for me.
        >
        >I'm interested in hearing feedback on the subject of strength without
        >discipline.

        Lisa,

        may i say...
        i think strength without discipline can be constructive. the path to
        construction need not always be focused, it just needs to be delivered. if
        things arrive, then they have a way of being put into place. human artistry
        is like that, human warfare is often like that too (contrary to what many
        strategists have us believe)
        one act of serendipitous success emerging from strength can sway the whole
        foundation, when all the most disciplined special forces in the way may be
        forced back from their position of security by a snowstorm, a prayer, and an
        act of courage.
        we draw from our strength and unleash it into our activities. ironically,
        it is not the strength itself that provides the leverage, but the knowledge
        of how it is to be entailed/used, and how it is embodied in ourselves.
        strength itself is limitless, and once that is known, then the leverage is
        limitless.
        once you know that your own potential for bringing forth strength into
        your own life is not limited by the lack of Strength itself, tho it may be
        limited by adverse conditions [note: 'limited' as in 'chance for success
        slim to none'], then you suffer no delusions of inadequacy.
        the only inadequacy lies in not exploring your own strength.
        discipline happens as an effort to improve the strength that you yourself
        possess. there is a difference b/w improvement and exploration, as well as
        b/w possession and utilization. it will become more clear in a bit what i
        mean by that.
        it is discipline, as a conscious effort, that tells you that you are not
        doing enough to maintain your own balance, and this can lead to negative
        rationales/emotions/karma/discontent. But, if you know you have the
        strength, or will find it when the time comes, then your preparation is
        complete.
        if you are pursuing discipline to increase your own sense of security and
        happiness, then why risk the bad feelings that discipline itself may bring?
        strength is actually easier to come by (tho perhaps not to return to), and
        you will always find strength somewhere else!
        Strength is in the Tao, discipline is more dangerous. i am not sur wher
        discipline lives, tho i do know that it involves conscious reasoning,
        repetition, memory, and some sense of a threat to your well-being that must
        be counterbalanced. from the counterbalancing, the true threat emerges:
        either it is exaggerated, it is truly increased, or it is conjured in the
        first place.
        the true sign of a still disciplined person in the better place of lesser
        danger is one who knows the strength is there when they need it, tho they do
        not require it to give them security. instead, their security is found in
        not pursuing discipline. their security is found in always exploring other
        options, and knowing that strength will be found when the time comes to
        pursue the right option.
        yet, does discipline lie in cultivating the exploration? does discipline
        have a rightful place in scholarship, society, the spirit, and the
        individual? plz read below..

        >It may be a fact that it is a 'weak' combination; yet if
        >we turn to CT's essay advocating on to each his own

        im sorry.. which essay is that?

        >, does one accept
        >one's attributes as-is; or does one try to cultivate what is known to
        >be balanced--but risk feeling forever inadequate for not getting to
        >that place?

        risk is a part of our day-and-night job: living. if you live with
        Strength, you also live with the absence of it. either way, you have it or
        you will have it. no inadequacy is in there.
        sometimes, i think that discipline lies in acceptance; that way, it is
        more of a static affair. cultivation can lead away from discipline, and
        into cultivating new habits, and yes, into risk.
        sometimes, i think that discipline lies in the cultivation, and to wit,
        the cultivation of strength. discipline is the procedural application of
        learning about ones own strength, and utilizing it, but mostly by attempting
        to possess it.
        discipline will become static, tho, if one simply 'focuses on one's
        strengths' which is actually a euphemism for refusing to take risks, to
        stay the course, to not explore, to hold onto what may not be held, and may
        not be a focus on strength at all.
        strength is better used for exploration than security. on the other hand,
        discipline is suited to security. it offers more visible results. true
        strength is well hidden.
        once you know that the cultivation of strength unleashes the potential for
        further strength, and you explore this option, you realize that strength is
        not to be contained. strength is not to be contained by discipline.
        strength, by its very nature as escape from normality, does not lie in
        discipline, although it may emerge from it.
        also, and more regularly , strength may not come out thro discipline.
        strength is sometimes discovered in the most unusual of places, and this is
        normal. this is what we celebrate.
        we celebrate the ones who do something they have never done before, and
        not because of discipline. some may think it is discipline, but discipline
        does not drive their action or success. remember, all the discipline in the
        world can lead to failure. it is the strength they have found at that time,
        and at no other time.
        strength can fix a tragedy. can discipline do that?
        at best, it can carry us thro one, but it will never finalize the tragedy.
        something new and more powerful is needed, and that new thing is either
        strength itself, or is provided thro the weird magic of strength.
        it will also be accompanied by a new piece of knowledge about how to use
        that new strength, which, because of its newness, has no true precedent in
        discipline.

        later,

        Mike C.

        >rgds,
        >lisa
        >


        _________________________________________________________________
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      • Dave Winslow
        I am humbled by such incredible words, and honored to be here to thank you Mike. I think I will ponder them for the rest of the day, maybe the rest of my life.
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 4, 2001
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          I am humbled by such incredible words, and honored to be here to thank
          you Mike. I think I will ponder them for the rest of the day, maybe
          the rest of my life.

          Dave

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Michael Corey <mike_corey@...>
          To: <TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 05:43 AM
          Subject: Re: [TaoTalk] strength without discipline


          > >From: "lisa" <oneof10k@...>
          > >Reply-To: TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com
          > >To: TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com
          > >Subject: [TaoTalk] strength without discipline
          > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 14:29:12 -0000
          > >
          > >Hi all,
          > >
          > >On Sunday morning during my stay with lawrence, I tossed the coins
          > >for an i ching reading. The original hexagram was 7, the army,
          with
          > >the first (changing) line talking about having strength without
          > >discipline. Wow, it was like a cane being rapped upside my head.
          > >
          > >Thank you, to lawrence, and the cosmic energy that is channeled
          > >through the text of the i ching. I've had my doubts about the
          > >underlying benevolence of the i ching from time to time. Perhaps I
          > >need to accept that it isn't the message as much as the vehicle for
          > >it that has been the point of speculation for me.
          > >
          > >I'm interested in hearing feedback on the subject of strength
          without
          > >discipline.
          >
          > Lisa,
          >
          > may i say...
          > i think strength without discipline can be constructive. the path
          to
          > construction need not always be focused, it just needs to be
          delivered. if
          > things arrive, then they have a way of being put into place. human
          artistry
          > is like that, human warfare is often like that too (contrary to what
          many
          > strategists have us believe)
          > one act of serendipitous success emerging from strength can sway
          the whole
          > foundation, when all the most disciplined special forces in the way
          may be
          > forced back from their position of security by a snowstorm, a
          prayer, and an
          > act of courage.
          > we draw from our strength and unleash it into our activities.
          ironically,
          > it is not the strength itself that provides the leverage, but the
          knowledge
          > of how it is to be entailed/used, and how it is embodied in
          ourselves.
          > strength itself is limitless, and once that is known, then the
          leverage is
          > limitless.
          > once you know that your own potential for bringing forth strength
          into
          > your own life is not limited by the lack of Strength itself, tho it
          may be
          > limited by adverse conditions [note: 'limited' as in 'chance for
          success
          > slim to none'], then you suffer no delusions of inadequacy.
          > the only inadequacy lies in not exploring your own strength.
          > discipline happens as an effort to improve the strength that you
          yourself
          > possess. there is a difference b/w improvement and exploration, as
          well as
          > b/w possession and utilization. it will become more clear in a bit
          what i
          > mean by that.
          > it is discipline, as a conscious effort, that tells you that you
          are not
          > doing enough to maintain your own balance, and this can lead to
          negative
          > rationales/emotions/karma/discontent. But, if you know you have the
          > strength, or will find it when the time comes, then your preparation
          is
          > complete.
          > if you are pursuing discipline to increase your own sense of
          security and
          > happiness, then why risk the bad feelings that discipline itself may
          bring?
          > strength is actually easier to come by (tho perhaps not to return
          to), and
          > you will always find strength somewhere else!
          > Strength is in the Tao, discipline is more dangerous. i am not
          sur wher
          > discipline lives, tho i do know that it involves conscious
          reasoning,
          > repetition, memory, and some sense of a threat to your well-being
          that must
          > be counterbalanced. from the counterbalancing, the true threat
          emerges:
          > either it is exaggerated, it is truly increased, or it is conjured
          in the
          > first place.
          > the true sign of a still disciplined person in the better place
          of lesser
          > danger is one who knows the strength is there when they need it, tho
          they do
          > not require it to give them security. instead, their security is
          found in
          > not pursuing discipline. their security is found in always
          exploring other
          > options, and knowing that strength will be found when the time comes
          to
          > pursue the right option.
          > yet, does discipline lie in cultivating the exploration? does
          discipline
          > have a rightful place in scholarship, society, the spirit, and the
          > individual? plz read below..
          >
          > >It may be a fact that it is a 'weak' combination; yet if
          > >we turn to CT's essay advocating on to each his own
          >
          > im sorry.. which essay is that?
          >
          > >, does one accept
          > >one's attributes as-is; or does one try to cultivate what is known
          to
          > >be balanced--but risk feeling forever inadequate for not getting to
          > >that place?
          >
          > risk is a part of our day-and-night job: living. if you live
          with
          > Strength, you also live with the absence of it. either way, you
          have it or
          > you will have it. no inadequacy is in there.
          > sometimes, i think that discipline lies in acceptance; that way,
          it is
          > more of a static affair. cultivation can lead away from discipline,
          and
          > into cultivating new habits, and yes, into risk.
          > sometimes, i think that discipline lies in the cultivation, and to
          wit,
          > the cultivation of strength. discipline is the procedural
          application of
          > learning about ones own strength, and utilizing it, but mostly by
          attempting
          > to possess it.
          > discipline will become static, tho, if one simply 'focuses on
          one's
          > strengths' which is actually a euphemism for refusing to take risks,
          to
          > stay the course, to not explore, to hold onto what may not be held,
          and may
          > not be a focus on strength at all.
          > strength is better used for exploration than security. on the
          other hand,
          > discipline is suited to security. it offers more visible results.
          true
          > strength is well hidden.
          > once you know that the cultivation of strength unleashes the
          potential for
          > further strength, and you explore this option, you realize that stre
          ngth is
          > not to be contained. strength is not to be contained by discipline.
          > strength, by its very nature as escape from normality, does not lie
          in
          > discipline, although it may emerge from it.
          > also, and more regularly , strength may not come out thro
          discipline.
          > strength is sometimes discovered in the most unusual of places, and
          this is
          > normal. this is what we celebrate.
          > we celebrate the ones who do something they have never done
          before, and
          > not because of discipline. some may think it is discipline, but
          discipline
          > does not drive their action or success. remember, all the
          discipline in the
          > world can lead to failure. it is the strength they have found at
          that time,
          > and at no other time.
          > strength can fix a tragedy. can discipline do that?
          > at best, it can carry us thro one, but it will never finalize the
          tragedy.
          > something new and more powerful is needed, and that new thing is
          either
          > strength itself, or is provided thro the weird magic of strength.
          > it will also be accompanied by a new piece of knowledge about how
          to use
          > that new strength, which, because of its newness, has no true
          precedent in
          > discipline.
          >
          > later,
          >
          > Mike C.
          >
          > >rgds,
          > >lisa
          > >
          >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
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        • dobador@aol.com
          Hi Lisa. I ve often wondered about the concept of discipline - who decides what is disciplined, and whether you have enough? There have been times in my life
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 4, 2001
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            Hi Lisa.  I've often wondered about the concept of discipline - who decides what is disciplined, and whether you have enough?  There have been times in my life when I have tried very hard to discipline myself to continue to do something I really didn't want to be doing, but was expected to do - only to learn that the true discipline was in walking away from a situation that simply was not good for me.  I'd been trying to live someone else's life, and was paying a steep price for it.  When I began again to live my own life, balance found itself.
          • lisa
            Mike, this is a mindbogglingly outstanding piece of writing. From whatever well of strength you pulled it from, it is my/our blessings to have read it. Thank
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 4, 2001
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              Mike, this is a mindbogglingly outstanding piece of writing. From
              whatever well of strength you pulled it from, it is my/our blessings
              to have read it. Thank you. Like Dave (and as I wrote you in email)
              let me ponder it a bit and maybe pipe out a harmonizing resonance in
              response :)
              rgds,
              li

              p.s. I copied your post and put it in the files section. Is that ok?


              --- In TaoTalk@y..., "Michael Corey" <mike_corey@h...> wrote:
              > >From: "lisa" <oneof10k@a...>
              > >Reply-To: TaoTalk@y...
              > >To: TaoTalk@y...
              > >Subject: [TaoTalk] strength without discipline
              > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 14:29:12 -0000
              > >
              > >Hi all,
              > >
              > >On Sunday morning during my stay with lawrence, I tossed the coins
              > >for an i ching reading. The original hexagram was 7, the army,
              with
              > >the first (changing) line talking about having strength without
              > >discipline. Wow, it was like a cane being rapped upside my head.
              > >
              > >Thank you, to lawrence, and the cosmic energy that is channeled
              > >through the text of the i ching. I've had my doubts about the
              > >underlying benevolence of the i ching from time to time. Perhaps I
              > >need to accept that it isn't the message as much as the vehicle for
              > >it that has been the point of speculation for me.
              > >
              > >I'm interested in hearing feedback on the subject of strength
              without
              > >discipline.
              >
              > Lisa,
              >
              > may i say...
              > i think strength without discipline can be constructive. the
              path to
              > construction need not always be focused, it just needs to be
              delivered. if
              > things arrive, then they have a way of being put into place. human
              artistry
              > is like that, human warfare is often like that too (contrary to
              what many
              > strategists have us believe)
              > one act of serendipitous success emerging from strength can sway
              the whole
              > foundation, when all the most disciplined special forces in the way
              may be
              > forced back from their position of security by a snowstorm, a
              prayer, and an
              > act of courage.
              > we draw from our strength and unleash it into our activities.
              ironically,
              > it is not the strength itself that provides the leverage, but the
              knowledge
              > of how it is to be entailed/used, and how it is embodied in
              ourselves.
              > strength itself is limitless, and once that is known, then the
              leverage is
              > limitless.
              > once you know that your own potential for bringing forth strength
              into
              > your own life is not limited by the lack of Strength itself, tho it
              may be
              > limited by adverse conditions [note: 'limited' as in 'chance for
              success
              > slim to none'], then you suffer no delusions of inadequacy.
              > the only inadequacy lies in not exploring your own strength.
              > discipline happens as an effort to improve the strength that you
              yourself
              > possess. there is a difference b/w improvement and exploration, as
              well as
              > b/w possession and utilization. it will become more clear in a bit
              what i
              > mean by that.
              > it is discipline, as a conscious effort, that tells you that you
              are not
              > doing enough to maintain your own balance, and this can lead to
              negative
              > rationales/emotions/karma/discontent. But, if you know you have
              the
              > strength, or will find it when the time comes, then your
              preparation is
              > complete.
              > if you are pursuing discipline to increase your own sense of
              security and
              > happiness, then why risk the bad feelings that discipline itself
              may bring?
              > strength is actually easier to come by (tho perhaps not to return
              to), and
              > you will always find strength somewhere else!
              > Strength is in the Tao, discipline is more dangerous. i am not
              sur wher
              > discipline lives, tho i do know that it involves conscious
              reasoning,
              > repetition, memory, and some sense of a threat to your well-being
              that must
              > be counterbalanced. from the counterbalancing, the true threat
              emerges:
              > either it is exaggerated, it is truly increased, or it is conjured
              in the
              > first place.
              > the true sign of a still disciplined person in the better place
              of lesser
              > danger is one who knows the strength is there when they need it,
              tho they do
              > not require it to give them security. instead, their security is
              found in
              > not pursuing discipline. their security is found in always
              exploring other
              > options, and knowing that strength will be found when the time
              comes to
              > pursue the right option.
              > yet, does discipline lie in cultivating the exploration? does
              discipline
              > have a rightful place in scholarship, society, the spirit, and the
              > individual? plz read below..
              >
              > >It may be a fact that it is a 'weak' combination; yet if
              > >we turn to CT's essay advocating on to each his own
              >
              > im sorry.. which essay is that?
              >
              > >, does one accept
              > >one's attributes as-is; or does one try to cultivate what is known
              to
              > >be balanced--but risk feeling forever inadequate for not getting to
              > >that place?
              >
              > risk is a part of our day-and-night job: living. if you live
              with
              > Strength, you also live with the absence of it. either way, you
              have it or
              > you will have it. no inadequacy is in there.
              > sometimes, i think that discipline lies in acceptance; that way,
              it is
              > more of a static affair. cultivation can lead away from
              discipline, and
              > into cultivating new habits, and yes, into risk.
              > sometimes, i think that discipline lies in the cultivation, and
              to wit,
              > the cultivation of strength. discipline is the procedural
              application of
              > learning about ones own strength, and utilizing it, but mostly by
              attempting
              > to possess it.
              > discipline will become static, tho, if one simply 'focuses on
              one's
              > strengths' which is actually a euphemism for refusing to take
              risks, to
              > stay the course, to not explore, to hold onto what may not be
              held, and may
              > not be a focus on strength at all.
              > strength is better used for exploration than security. on the
              other hand,
              > discipline is suited to security. it offers more visible results.
              true
              > strength is well hidden.
              > once you know that the cultivation of strength unleashes the
              potential for
              > further strength, and you explore this option, you realize that
              strength is
              > not to be contained. strength is not to be contained by
              discipline.
              > strength, by its very nature as escape from normality, does not lie
              in
              > discipline, although it may emerge from it.
              > also, and more regularly , strength may not come out thro
              discipline.
              > strength is sometimes discovered in the most unusual of places, and
              this is
              > normal. this is what we celebrate.
              > we celebrate the ones who do something they have never done
              before, and
              > not because of discipline. some may think it is discipline, but
              discipline
              > does not drive their action or success. remember, all the
              discipline in the
              > world can lead to failure. it is the strength they have found at
              that time,
              > and at no other time.
              > strength can fix a tragedy. can discipline do that?
              > at best, it can carry us thro one, but it will never finalize the
              tragedy.
              > something new and more powerful is needed, and that new thing is
              either
              > strength itself, or is provided thro the weird magic of strength.
              > it will also be accompanied by a new piece of knowledge about how
              to use
              > that new strength, which, because of its newness, has no true
              precedent in
              > discipline.
              >
              > later,
              >
              > Mike C.
              >
              > >rgds,
              > >lisa
              > >
              >
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________
              > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
              http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
            • Leroy Flannigan
              Hi I m Leroy, I m new to the list and intrigued by such a wonderful introductory topic as strength without discipline. It opens to an immense field of
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 4, 2001
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                Hi I'm Leroy,

                I'm new to the list and intrigued by such a wonderful
                introductory topic as "strength without discipline."

                It opens to an immense field of wisdom, that where the
                the huge Nothing holds every secret back, locked with
                only a tiny key of "not knowing." The greatest
                movements are those when everything folds back into
                itself as into the center of a mandala, where all the
                factors added together equal zero.

                When parts are seen separately we have phenomenon, and
                fragmented perception that deludes us. It is only
                when we surrender to the pieces beyond us that we can
                go back into that center by being whole (and nothing).


                The path there always by way of what is beyond us. It
                is through what we can never know except by having an
                empty chamber kept clean inside for the universe to
                fill with wonder. Strength that allows this is the
                type that willing forfeits constraints of forced
                discipline, preconceptions and absurd rules the
                universe doesn't use.

                But, it isn't easy and the strength required must be
                one tempered like the strongest diamond to feel the
                pain of it all. The discipline I subscribe to is that
                of a staying power, something not to be taken lightly
                as one's horizons expand.

                Leroy


                Just my thoughts.

                _______________________________________________________
                Build your own website for free and in minutes at http://ca.geocities.com
              • lisa
                Hi Leroy, Welcome to you, and to others newly here. ... Just? lol It is satisfying to see another poet singing dao s resonance with such facility. i feel the
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
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                  Hi Leroy,
                  Welcome to you, and to others newly here.

                  --- In TaoTalk@y..., Leroy Flannigan <leroyflannigan@y...>

                  You wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi I'm Leroy,
                  >
                  > I'm new to the list and intrigued by such a wonderful
                  > introductory topic as "strength without discipline."
                  >
                  > It opens to an immense field of wisdom, that where the
                  > the huge Nothing holds every secret back, locked with
                  > only a tiny key of "not knowing." The greatest
                  > movements are those when everything folds back into
                  > itself as into the center of a mandala, where all the
                  > factors added together equal zero.
                  >
                  > When parts are seen separately we have phenomenon, and
                  > fragmented perception that deludes us. It is only
                  > when we surrender to the pieces beyond us that we can
                  > go back into that center by being whole (and nothing).
                  >
                  >
                  > The path there always by way of what is beyond us. It
                  > is through what we can never know except by having an
                  > empty chamber kept clean inside for the universe to
                  > fill with wonder. Strength that allows this is the
                  > type that willing forfeits constraints of forced
                  > discipline, preconceptions and absurd rules the
                  > universe doesn't use.
                  >
                  > But, it isn't easy and the strength required must be
                  > one tempered like the strongest diamond to feel the
                  > pain of it all. The discipline I subscribe to is that
                  > of a staying power, something not to be taken lightly
                  > as one's horizons expand.
                  >
                  > Leroy
                  >
                  >
                  > Just my thoughts.

                  Just? lol

                  It is satisfying to see another poet singing dao's resonance with
                  such facility.

                  i feel the clockwork ticking,
                  tumblers falling,
                  clicking into place.
                  holding the fragile blossom
                  lightly, inhaling its essence.
                  sighing.
                  thank you.

                  rgds,
                  lisa

                  >
                  > _______________________________________________________
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                • Leroy Flannigan
                  ... Hi Leroy,
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- lisa <oneof10k@...> wrote:
                    Hi Leroy,<BR>
                    <Welcome to you, and to others newly here.

                    Thx lisa.

                    <Just? lol

                    Thanks for that too. Reminds me, on another list
                    someone quoted, "I laugh therefore you are." Thought
                    you might like that one.

                    <It is satisfying to see another poet singing dao's
                    <resonance with such facility.

                    Thanks too.

                    >i feel the clockwork ticking, <BR>
                    >tumblers falling,<BR>
                    <clicking into place.<BR>
                    <holding the fragile blossom<BR>
                    <lightly, inhaling its essence.<BR>
                    <sighing.<BR>
                    <thank you.<BR>

                    Beautiful, trembling poem. The wind goes through it.
                    Did you write it? If so, write some more okay. How
                    about something for lol?

                    Leroy



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                  • Leroy Flannigan
                    Dear Mike, Thank you for your amazing words. I ve just had a chance to carefully read through your post. My thanks go very deeply to you, and I also will
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 6, 2001
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                      Dear Mike,

                      Thank you for your amazing words. I've just had a
                      chance to carefully read through your post. My thanks
                      go very deeply to you, and I also will refer to your
                      words until they are inscribed on my heart like a
                      mantra. I know the strength of Tao you speak of but
                      it's always been something I silently related to
                      without considering any aspect in words. I can't say
                      how much your words have given me an anchor where that
                      strength always is. That sort of strength has always
                      been a guide for me, like a seeing eye dog, but being
                      blind, I didn't realize what it looked like until your
                      post. You certainly drew inspiration from strength as
                      you wrote.

                      Blessings,
                      Om mani padme hum
                      Leroy
                      > Lisa,<BR>
                      > <BR>
                      >   may i say...<BR>
                      >   i think strength without discipline
                      can be constructive.  the <BR>
                      path to <BR>
                      > construction need not always be focused, it just
                      needs to be <BR>
                      delivered.  if <BR>
                      > things arrive, then they have a way of being put
                      into place.  human <BR>
                      artistry <BR>
                      > is like that, human warfare is often like that
                      too (contrary to <BR>
                      what many <BR>
                      > strategists have us believe)<BR>
                      >   one act of serendipitous success
                      emerging from strength can sway <BR>
                      the whole <BR>
                      > foundation, when all the most disciplined special
                      forces in the way <BR>
                      may be <BR>
                      > forced back from their position of security by a
                      snowstorm, a <BR>
                      prayer, and an <BR>
                      > act of courage.<BR>
                      >   we draw from our strength and unleash
                      it into our activities.  <BR>
                      ironically, <BR>
                      > it is not the strength itself that provides the
                      leverage, but the <BR>
                      knowledge <BR>
                      > of how it is to be entailed/used, and how it is
                      embodied in <BR>
                      ourselves.  <BR>
                      > strength itself is limitless, and once that is
                      known, then the <BR>
                      leverage is <BR>
                      > limitless.<BR>
                      >   once you know that your own potential
                      for bringing forth strength <BR>
                      into <BR>
                      > your own life is not limited by the lack of
                      Strength itself, tho it <BR>
                      may be <BR>
                      > limited by adverse conditions [note: 'limited' as
                      in 'chance for <BR>
                      success <BR>
                      > slim to none'], then you suffer no delusions of
                      inadequacy.<BR>
                      > the only inadequacy lies in not exploring your
                      own strength.<BR>
                      >   discipline happens as an effort to
                      improve the strength that you <BR>
                      yourself <BR>
                      > possess.  there is a difference b/w
                      improvement and exploration, as <BR>
                      well as <BR>
                      > b/w possession and utilization.  it will
                      become more clear in a bit <BR>
                      what i <BR>
                      > mean by that.<BR>
                      >   it is discipline, as a conscious
                      effort, that tells you that you <BR>
                      are not <BR>
                      > doing enough to maintain your own balance, and
                      this can lead to <BR>
                      negative <BR>
                      > rationales/emotions/karma/discontent.  But,
                      if you know you have <BR>
                      the <BR>
                      > strength, or will find it when the time comes,
                      then your <BR>
                      preparation is <BR>
                      > complete.<BR>
                      >   if you are pursuing discipline to
                      increase your own sense of <BR>
                      security and <BR>
                      > happiness, then why risk the bad feelings that
                      discipline itself <BR>
                      may bring?  <BR>
                      > strength is actually easier to come by (tho
                      perhaps not to return <BR>
                      to), and <BR>
                      > you will always find strength somewhere else!<BR>
                      >   Strength is in the Tao, discipline is
                      more dangerous.  i am not <BR>
                      sur wher <BR>
                      > discipline lives, tho i do know that it involves
                      conscious <BR>
                      reasoning, <BR>
                      > repetition, memory, and some sense of a threat to
                      your well-being <BR>
                      that must <BR>
                      > be counterbalanced.  from the
                      counterbalancing, the true threat <BR>
                      emerges:  <BR>
                      > either it is exaggerated, it is truly increased,
                      or it is conjured <BR>
                      in the <BR>
                      > first place.<BR>
                      >    the true sign of a still
                      disciplined person in the better place <BR>
                      of lesser <BR>
                      > danger is one who knows the strength is there
                      when they need it, <BR>
                      tho they do <BR>
                      > not require it to give them security. 
                      instead, their security is <BR>
                      found in <BR>
                      > not pursuing discipline.  their security is
                      found in always <BR>
                      exploring other <BR>
                      > options, and knowing that strength will be found
                      when the time <BR>
                      comes to <BR>
                      > pursue the right option.<BR>
                      >    yet, does discipline lie in
                      cultivating the exploration?  does <BR>
                      discipline <BR>
                      > have a rightful place in scholarship, society,
                      the spirit, and the <BR>
                      > individual?  plz read below..<BR>
                      > <BR>
                      > >It may be a fact that it is a 'weak'
                      combination; yet if<BR>
                      > >we turn to CT's essay advocating on to each
                      his own<BR>
                      > <BR>
                      > im sorry.. which essay is that?<BR>
                      > <BR>
                      > >, does one accept<BR>
                      > >one's attributes as-is; or does one try to
                      cultivate what is known <BR>
                      to<BR>
                      > >be balanced--but risk feeling forever
                      inadequate for not getting to<BR>
                      > >that place?<BR>
                      > <BR>
                      >   risk is a part of our day-and-night
                      job:  living.  if you live <BR>
                      with <BR>
                      > Strength, you also live with the absence of
                      it.  either way, you <BR>
                      have it or <BR>
                      > you will have it.  no inadequacy is in
                      there.<BR>
                      >   sometimes, i think that discipline
                      lies in acceptance; that way, <BR>
                      it is <BR>
                      > more of a static affair.  cultivation can
                      lead away from <BR>
                      discipline, and <BR>
                      > into cultivating new habits, and yes, into
                      risk.<BR>
                      >   sometimes, i think that discipline
                      lies in the cultivation, and <BR>
                      to wit, <BR>
                      > the cultivation of strength.  discipline is
                      the procedural <BR>
                      application of <BR>
                      > learning about ones own strength, and utilizing
                      it, but mostly by <BR>
                      attempting <BR>
                      > to possess it.<BR>
                      >   discipline will become static, tho,
                      if one simply 'focuses on <BR>
                      one's <BR>
                      > strengths' which is actually a euphemism for
                      refusing to take <BR>
                      risks, to<BR>
                      > stay the course, to not explore, to hold onto
                      what may not be <BR>
                      held,  and may <BR>
                      > not be a focus on strength at all.<BR>
                      >   strength is better used for
                      exploration than security.  on the <BR>
                      other hand, <BR>
                      > discipline is suited to security.  it offers
                      more visible results.  <BR>
                      true <BR>
                      > strength is well hidden.<BR>
                      >   once you know that the cultivation of
                      strength unleashes the <BR>
                      potential for <BR>
                      > further strength, and you explore this option,
                      you realize that <BR>
                      strength is <BR>
                      > not to be contained.  strength is not to be
                      contained by <BR>
                      discipline. <BR>
                      > strength, by its very nature as escape from
                      normality, does not lie <BR>
                      in <BR>
                      > discipline, although it may emerge from it.<BR>
                      >   also, and more regularly , strength
                      may not come out thro <BR>
                      discipline.  <BR>
                      > strength is sometimes discovered in the most
                      unusual of places, and <BR>
                      this is <BR>
                      > normal.  this is what we celebrate.<BR>
                      >    we celebrate the ones who do
                      something they have never done <BR>
                      before, and <BR>
                      > not because of discipline.  some may think
                      it is discipline, but <BR>
                      discipline <BR>
                      > does not drive their action or success. 
                      remember, all the <BR>
                      discipline in the <BR>
                      > world can lead to failure.  it is the
                      strength they have found at <BR>
                      that time, <BR>
                      > and at no other time.<BR>
                      >   strength can fix a tragedy.  can
                      discipline do that?<BR>
                      >   at best, it can carry us thro one,
                      but it will never finalize the <BR>
                      tragedy. <BR>
                      > something new and more powerful is needed, and
                      that new thing is <BR>
                      either <BR>
                      > strength itself, or is provided thro the weird
                      magic of strength.<BR>
                      >   it will also be accompanied by a new
                      piece of knowledge about how <BR>
                      to use <BR>
                      > that new strength, which, because of its newness,
                      has no true <BR>
                      precedent in <BR>
                      > discipline.<BR>
                      > <BR>
                      > later,<BR>
                      > <BR>
                      > Mike C.<BR>
                      > <BR>
                      > >rgds,<BR>
                      > >lisa<BR>
                      > ><BR>
                      > <BR>
                      > <BR>
                      >
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                    • Dave Winslow
                      From: Michael Corey Subject: Re: [TaoTalk] strength without discipline ... thank ... that they ... Thanks, scrutiny continues, and I
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 6, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        From: Michael Corey <mike_corey@...>

                        Subject: Re: [TaoTalk] strength without discipline


                        > >From: "Dave Winslow" <David@...>

                        > >I am humbled by such incredible words, and honored to be here to
                        thank
                        > >you Mike. I think I will ponder them for the rest of the day, maybe
                        > >the rest of my life.
                        > >
                        > >Dave
                        >
                        > Dave,
                        >
                        > I find your comments refreshing, and i thank you. i only hope
                        that they
                        > will hold up under your intense scrutiny ;)

                        Thanks, scrutiny continues, and I look forward to your next post.

                        > i must admit i am not always in the habit of going into such
                        detail, but
                        > i believe (and all your responses have confirmed) that the way of
                        expression
                        > i have followed below has immediate consequences for understanding.
                        it not
                        > only helps to carry the thought into semantic clarity, but mental
                        clarity on
                        > the part of the author.

                        Yes, is it not like teaching? We learn what we do not know as we try
                        to tell others. We learn to preempt misunderstandings by anticipating
                        the readers differing meanings for words. Careful listening or reading
                        is vital to the process.

                        I have big problems along this lines, as my words are often thought to
                        be antagonistic when my intent is to be provocative.

                        > before i used this style much, i noticed it first and foremost in
                        > Heidegger. whether or not the references of the words are exact or
                        abstract,
                        > they have a habit of falling into place, and this is great fun.
                        > i notice a similar style of reading and writing of the Tao, its
                        > 'scriptures' and its translations, which is actually what i wish to
                        point
                        > out. i find the works of the Tao refreshing in their simplicity of
                        semantic
                        > content, and their universality of context.
                        > i am happy to continue this practise :)

                        I am most happy to learn from you.

                        >
                        > later,
                        >
                        > Mike C.
                        >
                        > PS. ironically, i seek _discipline_ in this arena of expression ;)

                        "Irony rules"

                        Dave
                      • Michael Corey
                        ... Dave, I find your comments refreshing, and i thank you. i only hope that they will hold up under your intense scrutiny ;) i must admit i am not always in
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 6, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          >From: "Dave Winslow" <David@...>
                          >Reply-To: TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: <TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com>
                          >Subject: Re: [TaoTalk] strength without discipline
                          >Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 09:23:32 -0500
                          >
                          >I am humbled by such incredible words, and honored to be here to thank
                          >you Mike. I think I will ponder them for the rest of the day, maybe
                          >the rest of my life.
                          >
                          >Dave

                          Dave,

                          I find your comments refreshing, and i thank you. i only hope that they
                          will hold up under your intense scrutiny ;)
                          i must admit i am not always in the habit of going into such detail, but
                          i believe (and all your responses have confirmed) that the way of expression
                          i have followed below has immediate consequences for understanding. it not
                          only helps to carry the thought into semantic clarity, but mental clarity on
                          the part of the author.
                          before i used this style much, i noticed it first and foremost in
                          Heidegger. whether or not the references of the words are exact or abstract,
                          they have a habit of falling into place, and this is great fun.
                          i notice a similar style of reading and writing of the Tao, its
                          'scriptures' and its translations, which is actually what i wish to point
                          out. i find the works of the Tao refreshing in their simplicity of semantic
                          content, and their universality of context.
                          i am happy to continue this practise :)

                          later,

                          Mike C.

                          PS. ironically, i seek _discipline_ in this arena of expression ;)

                          >----- Original Message -----
                          >From: Michael Corey <mike_corey@...>
                          >To: <TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com>
                          >Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 05:43 AM
                          >Subject: Re: [TaoTalk] strength without discipline
                          >
                          >
                          > > >From: "lisa" <oneof10k@...>
                          > > >Reply-To: TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com
                          > > >To: TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com
                          > > >Subject: [TaoTalk] strength without discipline
                          > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 14:29:12 -0000
                          > > >
                          > > >Hi all,
                          > > >
                          > > >On Sunday morning during my stay with lawrence, I tossed the coins
                          > > >for an i ching reading. The original hexagram was 7, the army,
                          >with
                          > > >the first (changing) line talking about having strength without
                          > > >discipline. Wow, it was like a cane being rapped upside my head.
                          > > >
                          > > >Thank you, to lawrence, and the cosmic energy that is channeled
                          > > >through the text of the i ching. I've had my doubts about the
                          > > >underlying benevolence of the i ching from time to time. Perhaps I
                          > > >need to accept that it isn't the message as much as the vehicle for
                          > > >it that has been the point of speculation for me.
                          > > >
                          > > >I'm interested in hearing feedback on the subject of strength
                          >without
                          > > >discipline.
                          > >
                          > > Lisa,
                          > >
                          > > may i say...
                          > > i think strength without discipline can be constructive. the path
                          >to
                          > > construction need not always be focused, it just needs to be
                          >delivered. if
                          > > things arrive, then they have a way of being put into place. human
                          >artistry
                          > > is like that, human warfare is often like that too (contrary to what
                          >many
                          > > strategists have us believe)
                          > > one act of serendipitous success emerging from strength can sway
                          >the whole
                          > > foundation, when all the most disciplined special forces in the way
                          >may be
                          > > forced back from their position of security by a snowstorm, a
                          >prayer, and an
                          > > act of courage.
                          > > we draw from our strength and unleash it into our activities.
                          >ironically,
                          > > it is not the strength itself that provides the leverage, but the
                          >knowledge
                          > > of how it is to be entailed/used, and how it is embodied in
                          >ourselves.
                          > > strength itself is limitless, and once that is known, then the
                          >leverage is
                          > > limitless.
                          > > once you know that your own potential for bringing forth strength
                          >into
                          > > your own life is not limited by the lack of Strength itself, tho it
                          >may be
                          > > limited by adverse conditions [note: 'limited' as in 'chance for
                          >success
                          > > slim to none'], then you suffer no delusions of inadequacy.
                          > > the only inadequacy lies in not exploring your own strength.
                          > > discipline happens as an effort to improve the strength that you
                          >yourself
                          > > possess. there is a difference b/w improvement and exploration, as
                          >well as
                          > > b/w possession and utilization. it will become more clear in a bit
                          >what i
                          > > mean by that.
                          > > it is discipline, as a conscious effort, that tells you that you
                          >are not
                          > > doing enough to maintain your own balance, and this can lead to
                          >negative
                          > > rationales/emotions/karma/discontent. But, if you know you have the
                          > > strength, or will find it when the time comes, then your preparation
                          >is
                          > > complete.
                          > > if you are pursuing discipline to increase your own sense of
                          >security and
                          > > happiness, then why risk the bad feelings that discipline itself may
                          >bring?
                          > > strength is actually easier to come by (tho perhaps not to return
                          >to), and
                          > > you will always find strength somewhere else!
                          > > Strength is in the Tao, discipline is more dangerous. i am not
                          >sur wher
                          > > discipline lives, tho i do know that it involves conscious
                          >reasoning,
                          > > repetition, memory, and some sense of a threat to your well-being
                          >that must
                          > > be counterbalanced. from the counterbalancing, the true threat
                          >emerges:
                          > > either it is exaggerated, it is truly increased, or it is conjured
                          >in the
                          > > first place.
                          > > the true sign of a still disciplined person in the better place
                          >of lesser
                          > > danger is one who knows the strength is there when they need it, tho
                          >they do
                          > > not require it to give them security. instead, their security is
                          >found in
                          > > not pursuing discipline. their security is found in always
                          >exploring other
                          > > options, and knowing that strength will be found when the time comes
                          >to
                          > > pursue the right option.
                          > > yet, does discipline lie in cultivating the exploration? does
                          >discipline
                          > > have a rightful place in scholarship, society, the spirit, and the
                          > > individual? plz read below..
                          > >
                          > > >It may be a fact that it is a 'weak' combination; yet if
                          > > >we turn to CT's essay advocating on to each his own
                          > >
                          > > im sorry.. which essay is that?
                          > >
                          > > >, does one accept
                          > > >one's attributes as-is; or does one try to cultivate what is known
                          >to
                          > > >be balanced--but risk feeling forever inadequate for not getting to
                          > > >that place?
                          > >
                          > > risk is a part of our day-and-night job: living. if you live
                          >with
                          > > Strength, you also live with the absence of it. either way, you
                          >have it or
                          > > you will have it. no inadequacy is in there.
                          > > sometimes, i think that discipline lies in acceptance; that way,
                          >it is
                          > > more of a static affair. cultivation can lead away from discipline,
                          >and
                          > > into cultivating new habits, and yes, into risk.
                          > > sometimes, i think that discipline lies in the cultivation, and to
                          >wit,
                          > > the cultivation of strength. discipline is the procedural
                          >application of
                          > > learning about ones own strength, and utilizing it, but mostly by
                          >attempting
                          > > to possess it.
                          > > discipline will become static, tho, if one simply 'focuses on
                          >one's
                          > > strengths' which is actually a euphemism for refusing to take risks,
                          >to
                          > > stay the course, to not explore, to hold onto what may not be held,
                          >and may
                          > > not be a focus on strength at all.
                          > > strength is better used for exploration than security. on the
                          >other hand,
                          > > discipline is suited to security. it offers more visible results.
                          >true
                          > > strength is well hidden.
                          > > once you know that the cultivation of strength unleashes the
                          >potential for
                          > > further strength, and you explore this option, you realize that stre
                          >ngth is
                          > > not to be contained. strength is not to be contained by discipline.
                          > > strength, by its very nature as escape from normality, does not lie
                          >in
                          > > discipline, although it may emerge from it.
                          > > also, and more regularly , strength may not come out thro
                          >discipline.
                          > > strength is sometimes discovered in the most unusual of places, and
                          >this is
                          > > normal. this is what we celebrate.
                          > > we celebrate the ones who do something they have never done
                          >before, and
                          > > not because of discipline. some may think it is discipline, but
                          >discipline
                          > > does not drive their action or success. remember, all the
                          >discipline in the
                          > > world can lead to failure. it is the strength they have found at
                          >that time,
                          > > and at no other time.
                          > > strength can fix a tragedy. can discipline do that?
                          > > at best, it can carry us thro one, but it will never finalize the
                          >tragedy.
                          > > something new and more powerful is needed, and that new thing is
                          >either
                          > > strength itself, or is provided thro the weird magic of strength.
                          > > it will also be accompanied by a new piece of knowledge about how
                          >to use
                          > > that new strength, which, because of its newness, has no true
                          >precedent in
                          > > discipline.
                          > >
                          > > later,
                          > >
                          > > Mike C.
                          > >
                          > > >rgds,
                          > > >lisa
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
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                        • Michael Corey
                          ... *blushes and rubs his neck well, i wouldnt go that far.. but hey, thx. ... that has a nice tune to it. ... while i am not sur it has prepared itself for
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 6, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            >From: "lisa" <oneof10k@...>
                            >Reply-To: TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: [TaoTalk] Re: strength without discipline
                            >Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 01:57:25 -0000
                            >
                            >Mike, this is a mindbogglingly outstanding piece of writing.

                            *blushes and rubs his neck

                            well, i wouldnt go that far.. but hey, thx.

                            >From
                            >whatever well of strength you pulled it from, it is my/our blessings
                            >to have read it. Thank you. Like Dave (and as I wrote you in email)
                            >let me ponder it a bit and maybe pipe out a harmonizing resonance in
                            >response :)

                            that has a nice tune to it.

                            >rgds,
                            >li
                            >
                            >p.s. I copied your post and put it in the files section. Is that ok?

                            while i am not sur it has prepared itself for posterity, i believe the piece
                            consents :)

                            later,

                            Mike C.

                            >
                            >--- In TaoTalk@y..., "Michael Corey" <mike_corey@h...> wrote:
                            > > >From: "lisa" <oneof10k@a...>
                            > > >Reply-To: TaoTalk@y...
                            > > >To: TaoTalk@y...
                            > > >Subject: [TaoTalk] strength without discipline
                            > > >Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 14:29:12 -0000
                            > > >
                            > > >Hi all,
                            > > >
                            > > >On Sunday morning during my stay with lawrence, I tossed the coins
                            > > >for an i ching reading. The original hexagram was 7, the army,
                            >with
                            > > >the first (changing) line talking about having strength without
                            > > >discipline. Wow, it was like a cane being rapped upside my head.
                            > > >
                            > > >Thank you, to lawrence, and the cosmic energy that is channeled
                            > > >through the text of the i ching. I've had my doubts about the
                            > > >underlying benevolence of the i ching from time to time. Perhaps I
                            > > >need to accept that it isn't the message as much as the vehicle for
                            > > >it that has been the point of speculation for me.
                            > > >
                            > > >I'm interested in hearing feedback on the subject of strength
                            >without
                            > > >discipline.
                            > >
                            > > Lisa,
                            > >
                            > > may i say...
                            > > i think strength without discipline can be constructive. the
                            >path to
                            > > construction need not always be focused, it just needs to be
                            >delivered. if
                            > > things arrive, then they have a way of being put into place. human
                            >artistry
                            > > is like that, human warfare is often like that too (contrary to
                            >what many
                            > > strategists have us believe)
                            > > one act of serendipitous success emerging from strength can sway
                            >the whole
                            > > foundation, when all the most disciplined special forces in the way
                            >may be
                            > > forced back from their position of security by a snowstorm, a
                            >prayer, and an
                            > > act of courage.
                            > > we draw from our strength and unleash it into our activities.
                            >ironically,
                            > > it is not the strength itself that provides the leverage, but the
                            >knowledge
                            > > of how it is to be entailed/used, and how it is embodied in
                            >ourselves.
                            > > strength itself is limitless, and once that is known, then the
                            >leverage is
                            > > limitless.
                            > > once you know that your own potential for bringing forth strength
                            >into
                            > > your own life is not limited by the lack of Strength itself, tho it
                            >may be
                            > > limited by adverse conditions [note: 'limited' as in 'chance for
                            >success
                            > > slim to none'], then you suffer no delusions of inadequacy.
                            > > the only inadequacy lies in not exploring your own strength.
                            > > discipline happens as an effort to improve the strength that you
                            >yourself
                            > > possess. there is a difference b/w improvement and exploration, as
                            >well as
                            > > b/w possession and utilization. it will become more clear in a bit
                            >what i
                            > > mean by that.
                            > > it is discipline, as a conscious effort, that tells you that you
                            >are not
                            > > doing enough to maintain your own balance, and this can lead to
                            >negative
                            > > rationales/emotions/karma/discontent. But, if you know you have
                            >the
                            > > strength, or will find it when the time comes, then your
                            >preparation is
                            > > complete.
                            > > if you are pursuing discipline to increase your own sense of
                            >security and
                            > > happiness, then why risk the bad feelings that discipline itself
                            >may bring?
                            > > strength is actually easier to come by (tho perhaps not to return
                            >to), and
                            > > you will always find strength somewhere else!
                            > > Strength is in the Tao, discipline is more dangerous. i am not
                            >sur wher
                            > > discipline lives, tho i do know that it involves conscious
                            >reasoning,
                            > > repetition, memory, and some sense of a threat to your well-being
                            >that must
                            > > be counterbalanced. from the counterbalancing, the true threat
                            >emerges:
                            > > either it is exaggerated, it is truly increased, or it is conjured
                            >in the
                            > > first place.
                            > > the true sign of a still disciplined person in the better place
                            >of lesser
                            > > danger is one who knows the strength is there when they need it,
                            >tho they do
                            > > not require it to give them security. instead, their security is
                            >found in
                            > > not pursuing discipline. their security is found in always
                            >exploring other
                            > > options, and knowing that strength will be found when the time
                            >comes to
                            > > pursue the right option.
                            > > yet, does discipline lie in cultivating the exploration? does
                            >discipline
                            > > have a rightful place in scholarship, society, the spirit, and the
                            > > individual? plz read below..
                            > >
                            > > >It may be a fact that it is a 'weak' combination; yet if
                            > > >we turn to CT's essay advocating on to each his own
                            > >
                            > > im sorry.. which essay is that?
                            > >
                            > > >, does one accept
                            > > >one's attributes as-is; or does one try to cultivate what is known
                            >to
                            > > >be balanced--but risk feeling forever inadequate for not getting to
                            > > >that place?
                            > >
                            > > risk is a part of our day-and-night job: living. if you live
                            >with
                            > > Strength, you also live with the absence of it. either way, you
                            >have it or
                            > > you will have it. no inadequacy is in there.
                            > > sometimes, i think that discipline lies in acceptance; that way,
                            >it is
                            > > more of a static affair. cultivation can lead away from
                            >discipline, and
                            > > into cultivating new habits, and yes, into risk.
                            > > sometimes, i think that discipline lies in the cultivation, and
                            >to wit,
                            > > the cultivation of strength. discipline is the procedural
                            >application of
                            > > learning about ones own strength, and utilizing it, but mostly by
                            >attempting
                            > > to possess it.
                            > > discipline will become static, tho, if one simply 'focuses on
                            >one's
                            > > strengths' which is actually a euphemism for refusing to take
                            >risks, to
                            > > stay the course, to not explore, to hold onto what may not be
                            >held, and may
                            > > not be a focus on strength at all.
                            > > strength is better used for exploration than security. on the
                            >other hand,
                            > > discipline is suited to security. it offers more visible results.
                            >true
                            > > strength is well hidden.
                            > > once you know that the cultivation of strength unleashes the
                            >potential for
                            > > further strength, and you explore this option, you realize that
                            >strength is
                            > > not to be contained. strength is not to be contained by
                            >discipline.
                            > > strength, by its very nature as escape from normality, does not lie
                            >in
                            > > discipline, although it may emerge from it.
                            > > also, and more regularly , strength may not come out thro
                            >discipline.
                            > > strength is sometimes discovered in the most unusual of places, and
                            >this is
                            > > normal. this is what we celebrate.
                            > > we celebrate the ones who do something they have never done
                            >before, and
                            > > not because of discipline. some may think it is discipline, but
                            >discipline
                            > > does not drive their action or success. remember, all the
                            >discipline in the
                            > > world can lead to failure. it is the strength they have found at
                            >that time,
                            > > and at no other time.
                            > > strength can fix a tragedy. can discipline do that?
                            > > at best, it can carry us thro one, but it will never finalize the
                            >tragedy.
                            > > something new and more powerful is needed, and that new thing is
                            >either
                            > > strength itself, or is provided thro the weird magic of strength.
                            > > it will also be accompanied by a new piece of knowledge about how
                            >to use
                            > > that new strength, which, because of its newness, has no true
                            >precedent in
                            > > discipline.
                            > >
                            > > later,
                            > >
                            > > Mike C.
                            > >
                            > > >rgds,
                            > > >lisa
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > _________________________________________________________________
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                          • Leroy Flannigan
                            Hi Mike, >been a guide for me, like a seeing eye dog, but being blind, I didn t realize what it looked like until
                            Message 13 of 25 , Nov 6, 2001
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                              Hi Mike,

                              <<That sort of strength has always<BR>
                              >been a guide for me, like a seeing eye dog, but
                              being blind, I didn't realize what it looked like
                              until your post.<BR>

                              <even when you can see it is often easy to miss what
                              is right under your nose. i know i do.beautiful things
                              about dogs is that they NEVER miss what is under their
                              noses.

                              So true, dogs are my heros, first in line to be gods
                              as far as I'm concerned. They could rule as
                              synonymical palindromes. (whoops, too far?)

                              Funny thing is that when I got your message Yahoo had
                              the add with a retriever in front of a white house.
                              There's Tao at work:)

                              again Blessings,
                              Om mani padme hum (ho)
                              Leroy


                              _______________________________________________________
                              Build your own website for free and in minutes at http://ca.geocities.com
                            • lisa
                              ... The 4-year-old wheeled around the doctor s waiting room on a push bike 2 feet tall. Turning to her mother, she sighed deeply and stated, Oh, how i wish
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 6, 2001
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In TaoTalk@y..., Leroy Flannigan <leroyflannigan@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- lisa <oneof10k@a...> wrote:
                                > Hi Leroy,<BR>
                                > <Welcome to you, and to others newly here.
                                >
                                > Thx lisa.
                                >
                                > <Just? lol
                                >
                                > Thanks for that too. Reminds me, on another list
                                > someone quoted, "I laugh therefore you are." Thought
                                > you might like that one.
                                >
                                > <It is satisfying to see another poet singing dao's
                                > <resonance with such facility.
                                >
                                > Thanks too.
                                >
                                > >i feel the clockwork ticking, <BR>
                                > >tumblers falling,<BR>
                                > <clicking into place.<BR>
                                > <holding the fragile blossom<BR>
                                > <lightly, inhaling its essence.<BR>
                                > <sighing.<BR>
                                > <thank you.<BR>
                                >
                                > Beautiful, trembling poem. The wind goes through it.
                                > Did you write it? If so, write some more okay. How
                                > about something for lol?
                                >
                                > Leroy

                                The 4-year-old wheeled around the doctor's waiting room
                                on a push bike 2 feet tall. Turning to her mother, she sighed deeply
                                and stated, "Oh, how i wish for the good old days."
                                (this actually happened about 3 weeks ago)

                                Your turn!

                                rgds,
                                lisa

                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > _______________________________________________________
                                > Build your own website for free and in minutes at
                                http://ca.geocities.com
                              • Michael Corey
                                ... your welcome :) ... even when you can see it is often easy to miss what is right under your nose. i know i do. beautiful things about dogs is that they
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 6, 2001
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  >From: Leroy Flannigan <leroyflannigan@...>
                                  >Reply-To: TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com
                                  >To: TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com
                                  >Subject: Re: [TaoTalk] Re: strength without discipline
                                  >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 05:15:36 -0500 (EST)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Dear Mike,
                                  >
                                  >Thank you for your amazing words.

                                  your welcome :)

                                  >I've just had a
                                  >chance to carefully read through your post. My thanks
                                  >go very deeply to you, and I also will refer to your
                                  >words until they are inscribed on my heart like a
                                  >mantra. I know the strength of Tao you speak of but
                                  >it's always been something I silently related to
                                  >without considering any aspect in words. I can't say
                                  >how much your words have given me an anchor where that
                                  >strength always is. That sort of strength has always
                                  >been a guide for me, like a seeing eye dog, but being
                                  >blind, I didn't realize what it looked like until your
                                  >post.

                                  even when you can see it is often easy to miss what is right
                                  under your nose. i know i do. beautiful things about dogs
                                  is that they NEVER miss what is under their noses.

                                  >You certainly drew inspiration from strength as
                                  >you wrote.
                                  >
                                  >Blessings,
                                  >Om mani padme hum
                                  >Leroy

                                  likewise,

                                  mike c.

                                  >> Lisa,<BR>
                                  >> <BR>
                                  >>   may i say...<BR>
                                  >>   i think strength without discipline
                                  >can be constructive.  the <BR>
                                  >path to <BR>
                                  >> construction need not always be focused, it just
                                  >needs to be <BR>
                                  >delivered.  if <BR>
                                  >> things arrive, then they have a way of being put
                                  >into place.  human <BR>
                                  >artistry <BR>
                                  >> is like that, human warfare is often like that
                                  >too (contrary to <BR>
                                  >what many <BR>
                                  >> strategists have us believe)<BR>
                                  >>   one act of serendipitous success
                                  >emerging from strength can sway <BR>
                                  >the whole <BR>
                                  >> foundation, when all the most disciplined special
                                  >forces in the way <BR>
                                  >may be <BR>
                                  >> forced back from their position of security by a
                                  >snowstorm, a <BR>
                                  >prayer, and an <BR>
                                  >> act of courage.<BR>
                                  >>   we draw from our strength and unleash
                                  >it into our activities.  <BR>
                                  >ironically, <BR>
                                  >> it is not the strength itself that provides the
                                  >leverage, but the <BR>
                                  >knowledge <BR>
                                  >> of how it is to be entailed/used, and how it is
                                  >embodied in <BR>
                                  >ourselves.  <BR>
                                  >> strength itself is limitless, and once that is
                                  >known, then the <BR>
                                  >leverage is <BR>
                                  >> limitless.<BR>
                                  >>   once you know that your own potential
                                  >for bringing forth strength <BR>
                                  >into <BR>
                                  >> your own life is not limited by the lack of
                                  >Strength itself, tho it <BR>
                                  >may be <BR>
                                  >> limited by adverse conditions [note: 'limited' as
                                  >in 'chance for <BR>
                                  >success <BR>
                                  >> slim to none'], then you suffer no delusions of
                                  >inadequacy.<BR>
                                  >> the only inadequacy lies in not exploring your
                                  >own strength.<BR>
                                  >>   discipline happens as an effort to
                                  >improve the strength that you <BR>
                                  >yourself <BR>
                                  >> possess.  there is a difference b/w
                                  >improvement and exploration, as <BR>
                                  >well as <BR>
                                  >> b/w possession and utilization.  it will
                                  >become more clear in a bit <BR>
                                  >what i <BR>
                                  >> mean by that.<BR>
                                  >>   it is discipline, as a conscious
                                  >effort, that tells you that you <BR>
                                  >are not <BR>
                                  >> doing enough to maintain your own balance, and
                                  >this can lead to <BR>
                                  >negative <BR>
                                  >> rationales/emotions/karma/discontent.  But,
                                  >if you know you have <BR>
                                  >the <BR>
                                  >> strength, or will find it when the time comes,
                                  >then your <BR>
                                  >preparation is <BR>
                                  >> complete.<BR>
                                  >>   if you are pursuing discipline to
                                  >increase your own sense of <BR>
                                  >security and <BR>
                                  >> happiness, then why risk the bad feelings that
                                  >discipline itself <BR>
                                  >may bring?  <BR>
                                  >> strength is actually easier to come by (tho
                                  >perhaps not to return <BR>
                                  >to), and <BR>
                                  >> you will always find strength somewhere else!<BR>
                                  >>   Strength is in the Tao, discipline is
                                  >more dangerous.  i am not <BR>
                                  >sur wher <BR>
                                  >> discipline lives, tho i do know that it involves
                                  >conscious <BR>
                                  >reasoning, <BR>
                                  >> repetition, memory, and some sense of a threat to
                                  >your well-being <BR>
                                  >that must <BR>
                                  >> be counterbalanced.  from the
                                  >counterbalancing, the true threat <BR>
                                  >emerges:  <BR>
                                  >> either it is exaggerated, it is truly increased,
                                  >or it is conjured <BR>
                                  >in the <BR>
                                  >> first place.<BR>
                                  >>    the true sign of a still
                                  >disciplined person in the better place <BR>
                                  >of lesser <BR>
                                  >> danger is one who knows the strength is there
                                  >when they need it, <BR>
                                  >tho they do <BR>
                                  >> not require it to give them security. 
                                  >instead, their security is <BR>
                                  >found in <BR>
                                  >> not pursuing discipline.  their security is
                                  >found in always <BR>
                                  >exploring other <BR>
                                  >> options, and knowing that strength will be found
                                  >when the time <BR>
                                  >comes to <BR>
                                  >> pursue the right option.<BR>
                                  >>    yet, does discipline lie in
                                  >cultivating the exploration?  does <BR>
                                  >discipline <BR>
                                  >> have a rightful place in scholarship, society,
                                  >the spirit, and the <BR>
                                  >> individual?  plz read below..<BR>
                                  >> <BR>
                                  >> >It may be a fact that it is a 'weak'
                                  >combination; yet if<BR>
                                  >> >we turn to CT's essay advocating on to each
                                  >his own<BR>
                                  >> <BR>
                                  >> im sorry.. which essay is that?<BR>
                                  >> <BR>
                                  >> >, does one accept<BR>
                                  >> >one's attributes as-is; or does one try to
                                  >cultivate what is known <BR>
                                  >to<BR>
                                  >> >be balanced--but risk feeling forever
                                  >inadequate for not getting to<BR>
                                  >> >that place?<BR>
                                  >> <BR>
                                  >>   risk is a part of our day-and-night
                                  >job:  living.  if you live <BR>
                                  >with <BR>
                                  >> Strength, you also live with the absence of
                                  >it.  either way, you <BR>
                                  >have it or <BR>
                                  >> you will have it.  no inadequacy is in
                                  >there.<BR>
                                  >>   sometimes, i think that discipline
                                  >lies in acceptance; that way, <BR>
                                  >it is <BR>
                                  >> more of a static affair.  cultivation can
                                  >lead away from <BR>
                                  >discipline, and <BR>
                                  >> into cultivating new habits, and yes, into
                                  >risk.<BR>
                                  >>   sometimes, i think that discipline
                                  >lies in the cultivation, and <BR>
                                  >to wit, <BR>
                                  >> the cultivation of strength.  discipline is
                                  >the procedural <BR>
                                  >application of <BR>
                                  >> learning about ones own strength, and utilizing
                                  >it, but mostly by <BR>
                                  >attempting <BR>
                                  >> to possess it.<BR>
                                  >>   discipline will become static, tho,
                                  >if one simply 'focuses on <BR>
                                  >one's <BR>
                                  >> strengths' which is actually a euphemism for
                                  >refusing to take <BR>
                                  >risks, to<BR>
                                  >> stay the course, to not explore, to hold onto
                                  >what may not be <BR>
                                  >held,  and may <BR>
                                  >> not be a focus on strength at all.<BR>
                                  >>   strength is better used for
                                  >exploration than security.  on the <BR>
                                  >other hand, <BR>
                                  >> discipline is suited to security.  it offers
                                  >more visible results.  <BR>
                                  >true <BR>
                                  >> strength is well hidden.<BR>
                                  >>   once you know that the cultivation of
                                  >strength unleashes the <BR>
                                  >potential for <BR>
                                  >> further strength, and you explore this option,
                                  >you realize that <BR>
                                  >strength is <BR>
                                  >> not to be contained.  strength is not to be
                                  >contained by <BR>
                                  >discipline. <BR>
                                  >> strength, by its very nature as escape from
                                  >normality, does not lie <BR>
                                  >in <BR>
                                  >> discipline, although it may emerge from it.<BR>
                                  >>   also, and more regularly , strength
                                  >may not come out thro <BR>
                                  >discipline.  <BR>
                                  >> strength is sometimes discovered in the most
                                  >unusual of places, and <BR>
                                  >this is <BR>
                                  >> normal.  this is what we celebrate.<BR>
                                  >>    we celebrate the ones who do
                                  >something they have never done <BR>
                                  >before, and <BR>
                                  >> not because of discipline.  some may think
                                  >it is discipline, but <BR>
                                  >discipline <BR>
                                  >> does not drive their action or success. 
                                  >remember, all the <BR>
                                  >discipline in the <BR>
                                  >> world can lead to failure.  it is the
                                  >strength they have found at <BR>
                                  >that time, <BR>
                                  >> and at no other time.<BR>
                                  >>   strength can fix a tragedy.  can
                                  >discipline do that?<BR>
                                  >>   at best, it can carry us thro one,
                                  >but it will never finalize the <BR>
                                  >tragedy. <BR>
                                  >> something new and more powerful is needed, and
                                  >that new thing is <BR>
                                  >either <BR>
                                  >> strength itself, or is provided thro the weird
                                  >magic of strength.<BR>
                                  >>   it will also be accompanied by a new
                                  >piece of knowledge about how <BR>
                                  >to use <BR>
                                  >> that new strength, which, because of its newness,
                                  >has no true <BR>
                                  >precedent in <BR>
                                  >> discipline.<BR>
                                  >> <BR>
                                  >> later,<BR>
                                  >> <BR>
                                  >> Mike C.<BR>
                                  >> <BR>
                                  >> >rgds,<BR>
                                  >> >lisa<BR>
                                  >> ><BR>
                                  >> <BR>
                                  >> <BR>
                                  >>
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                                • lisa
                                  ... [...] ... I defer to a few of my favorite wise humorist authors. Dr. Seuss: I had trouble in getting to Solla-Sellew. Tom Robbins: As a young woman,
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 8, 2001
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                                    --- In TaoTalk@y..., Leroy Flannigan <leroyflannigan@y...> wrote:

                                    [...]

                                    >How
                                    > about something for lol?
                                    >
                                    > Leroy

                                    I defer to a few of my favorite wise humorist authors.

                                    Dr. Seuss:
                                    "I had trouble in getting to Solla-Sellew."

                                    Tom Robbins:
                                    "As a young woman, Patsy had been a cheerleader who yearned to become
                                    a dancer. Why, at fifteen she was Grapefruit Princess of Okaloosa
                                    County! At seventeen, she met and married Verlin Charles, a navy
                                    pilot flying out of Pensacola. Discharged, Verlin moved her to
                                    Virginia, where he had resumed his career as a civil engineer. For
                                    the rest of her life, when Verlin was at work, Patsy would dance at
                                    home alone in cute white boots."

                                    laughing yet?


                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • lisa
                                    ... decides ... times in ... continue to do ... only to ... that ... life, and ... life, ... I hear you, Dobador. Related to discipline are times when I know
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 11, 2001
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                                      --- In TaoTalk@y..., dobador@a... wrote:
                                      > Hi Lisa. I've often wondered about the concept of discipline - who
                                      decides
                                      > what is disciplined, and whether you have enough? There have been
                                      times in
                                      > my life when I have tried very hard to discipline myself to
                                      continue to do
                                      > something I really didn't want to be doing, but was expected to do -
                                      only to
                                      > learn that the true discipline was in walking away from a situation
                                      that
                                      > simply was not good for me. I'd been trying to live someone else's
                                      life, and
                                      > was paying a steep price for it. When I began again to live my own
                                      life,
                                      > balance found itself.

                                      I hear you, Dobador. Related to discipline are times when I know in
                                      my bones that a thing is right for me, but it takes a little self-
                                      push to get me to follow through. For instance, I've been wanting to
                                      visit lawrence for a very long time but never stopped long enough to
                                      say ok, the time is now, what do I need to do to effect it. Once the
                                      decision was made to do it, it took a little discipline to make the
                                      arrangements, and it took a little determination to follow through
                                      when some things didn't fall into place. It was worth the effort,
                                      needless to say.

                                      I'd be interested in hearing your views and others' views on the
                                      difference between externally-based goals and ideals and things that
                                      you can feel in your bones that are worth working towards and that
                                      discipline is called for in effecting.

                                      rgds,
                                      lisa
                                    • lisa
                                      ... beautiful thing about cats is that they sometimes do! dogs are detail-oriented. cats are more into grokking things. unless they are hungry, of course.
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Nov 11, 2001
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                                        --- In TaoTalk@y..., Leroy Flannigan <leroyflannigan@y...> wrote:
                                        > Hi Mike,
                                        >
                                        > <<That sort of strength has always<BR>
                                        > >been a guide for me, like a seeing eye dog, but
                                        > being blind, I didn't realize what it looked like
                                        > until your post.<BR>
                                        >
                                        > <even when you can see it is often easy to miss what
                                        > is right under your nose. i know i do.beautiful things
                                        > about dogs is that they NEVER miss what is under their
                                        > noses.

                                        beautiful thing about cats is that they sometimes do! dogs are
                                        detail-oriented. cats are more into grokking things. unless they
                                        are hungry, of course.

                                        > So true, dogs are my heros, first in line to be gods
                                        > as far as I'm concerned. They could rule as
                                        > synonymical palindromes. (whoops, too far?)

                                        Dogs are mindlessly forgiving and loyal. Cats do so with a mind to
                                        do it. Is one superior to the other? A DOGGOD is more uplifting. A
                                        CATGOD is more satisfying.

                                        > Funny thing is that when I got your message Yahoo had
                                        > the add with a retriever in front of a white house.
                                        > There's Tao at work:)

                                        In the shadow of Socks...

                                        More differences and/or similarities between can- and fel- ines?

                                        rgds,
                                        lisa

                                        >
                                        > again Blessings,
                                        > Om mani padme hum (ho)
                                        > Leroy
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > _______________________________________________________
                                        > Build your own website for free and in minutes at
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                                      • joscann@planet.nl
                                        ... We have a ferret. 12 weeks old (we ve only had her four six weeks now). The whole world is her playpen. A most enlightened beastie! Very much fun to play
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Nov 12, 2001
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                                          >--- In TaoTalk@y..., Leroy Flannigan <leroyflannigan@y...> wrote:
                                          >> Hi Mike,
                                          >>
                                          >> <<That sort of strength has always<BR>
                                          >> >been a guide for me, like a seeing eye dog, but
                                          >> being blind, I didn't realize what it looked like
                                          >> until your post.<BR>
                                          >>
                                          >> <even when you can see it is often easy to miss what
                                          >> is right under your nose. i know i do.beautiful things
                                          >> about dogs is that they NEVER miss what is under their
                                          >> noses.
                                          >
                                          >beautiful thing about cats is that they sometimes do! dogs are
                                          >detail-oriented. cats are more into grokking things. unless they
                                          >are hungry, of course.
                                          >
                                          >> So true, dogs are my heros, first in line to be gods
                                          >> as far as I'm concerned. They could rule as
                                          >> synonymical palindromes. (whoops, too far?)
                                          >
                                          >Dogs are mindlessly forgiving and loyal. Cats do so with a mind to
                                          >do it. Is one superior to the other? A DOGGOD is more uplifting. A
                                          >CATGOD is more satisfying.
                                          >
                                          >> Funny thing is that when I got your message Yahoo had
                                          >> the add with a retriever in front of a white house.
                                          >> There's Tao at work:)
                                          >
                                          >In the shadow of Socks...
                                          >
                                          >More differences and/or similarities between can- and fel- ines?
                                          >
                                          >rgds,
                                          >lisa
                                          >

                                          We have a ferret. 12 weeks old (we've only had her four six weeks now). The whole world is her playpen. A most enlightened beastie! Very much fun to play with and watch.
                                        • Michael Corey
                                          ... any true goal is never externally-based. at least, not the ones that are intended for you; as to be a successful goal, they must be internalized at some
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Nov 12, 2001
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                                            >From: "lisa" <oneof10k@...>
                                            >Reply-To: TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com
                                            >To: TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com
                                            >Subject: [TaoTalk] Re: strength without discipline
                                            >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 23:32:27 -0000
                                            >
                                            >--- In TaoTalk@y..., dobador@a... wrote:
                                            > > Hi Lisa. I've often wondered about the concept of discipline - who
                                            >decides
                                            > > what is disciplined, and whether you have enough? There have been
                                            >times in
                                            > > my life when I have tried very hard to discipline myself to
                                            >continue to do
                                            > > something I really didn't want to be doing, but was expected to do -
                                            > only to
                                            > > learn that the true discipline was in walking away from a situation
                                            >that
                                            > > simply was not good for me. I'd been trying to live someone else's
                                            >life, and
                                            > > was paying a steep price for it. When I began again to live my own
                                            >life,
                                            > > balance found itself.
                                            >
                                            >I hear you, Dobador. Related to discipline are times when I know in
                                            >my bones that a thing is right for me, but it takes a little self-
                                            >push to get me to follow through. For instance, I've been wanting to
                                            >visit lawrence for a very long time but never stopped long enough to
                                            >say ok, the time is now, what do I need to do to effect it. Once the
                                            >decision was made to do it, it took a little discipline to make the
                                            >arrangements, and it took a little determination to follow through
                                            >when some things didn't fall into place. It was worth the effort,
                                            >needless to say.
                                            >
                                            >I'd be interested in hearing your views and others' views on the
                                            >difference between externally-based goals

                                            any true goal is never externally-based. at least, not the ones that are
                                            intended for you; as to be a successful goal, they must be internalized at
                                            some point. this is what happens when a runner trains for a race they wish
                                            to win. they picture themselves winning before it ever happens, and so when
                                            they do it comes as no surprise.
                                            it is an incredibly useful exercise to ask a person (or yourself even)
                                            what their goals are, and then to know whether or not they already imagined
                                            themselves in the winning circle for that particular goal. if not, then the
                                            goal is worse than useless.
                                            this is why they say 'change starts with you'. goals are mostly
                                            formalized when drastic change is needed, but on paper they are less goals
                                            than objects of desire. a company says 'we desire 200% growth', but a
                                            worthwhile goal is actually nothing like that.
                                            a worthwhile goal is both long-term and short-term, and always
                                            comprehensive. a true goal does not contain only the place to which
                                            something moves, but the act of moving itself. in formulating the goal, you
                                            must be aware of where you are NOW. sometimes answering that question will
                                            be more valuable than even the act of putting the goal on paper.
                                            know where you are now, know where you will be, and know what it will take
                                            to get u ther. a goal will cover all this, even if all this is not part of
                                            the original conception. in time, you will consult the goal periodically,
                                            and it will be updated in yur mind. to wit, a goal exists over time, until
                                            that certain pointness of 'goal' is reached.
                                            indeed, if i have been confusing, it is only because 'goal' means both the
                                            guide to reaching something, and the something that is to be reached. at
                                            the same time, having the goal means having much more than the goal.
                                            a similar thing happens with 'good'. you can do what is good because you
                                            are good. in terms of 'goal': you can reach the goal, because you are
                                            goal-y. or is that goalie?

                                            >and ideals and things that
                                            >you can feel in your bones that are worth working towards and that
                                            >discipline is called for in effecting.

                                            our english teacher once got mad as us because we used the word
                                            'effecting' as a verb, when its only intended as a noun 'effect', she told
                                            us, or an adverb 'effective'. personally, i thought that the word was
                                            ineffective itself if it couldnt be all things at once, but hey, you cant
                                            have it all. :)

                                            later,

                                            Mike C.

                                            >rgds,
                                            >lisa



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                                          • dobador@aol.com
                                            Lisa wrote: Related to discipline are times when I know in my bones that a thing is right for me, but it takes a little self- push to get me to follow
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Nov 14, 2001
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                                              Lisa wrote:
                                                  Related to discipline are times when I know in
                                              my bones that a thing is right for me, but it takes a little self-
                                              push to get me to follow through...I'd be interested in hearing your views and others' views on the
                                              difference between externally-based goals and ideals and things that
                                              you can feel in your bones that are worth working towards and that
                                              discipline is called for in effecting.

                                              Overall, what I feel in my bones is always right (for me, anyway).  Externally-based goals cause me much grief, since they are nearly always someone else's idea of right that I'm trying to accommodate.  I try to continue to follow my own path regardless of what is expected of me - usually I'm slowed down by outside influences, but not stopped.  
                                            • Michael Corey
                                              ... does that make the goals bony? :) perhaps a goal that is right DOES have more tangibility to it, can be grasped more readily as it provides the necessary
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Nov 15, 2001
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                                                >From: dobador@...
                                                >Reply-To: TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com
                                                >To: TaoTalk@yahoogroups.com
                                                >Subject: Re: [TaoTalk] Re: strength without discipline
                                                >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:01:32 EST
                                                >
                                                >Lisa wrote:
                                                > Related to discipline are times when I know in
                                                >my bones that a thing is right for me, but it takes a little self-
                                                >push to get me to follow through...I'd be interested in hearing your views
                                                >and others' views on the
                                                >difference between externally-based goals and ideals and things that
                                                >you can feel in your bones that are worth working towards and that
                                                >discipline is called for in effecting.
                                                >
                                                >Overall, what I feel in my bones is always right (for me, anyway).

                                                does that make the goals bony? :) perhaps a goal that is right DOES have
                                                more tangibility to it, can be grasped more readily as it provides the
                                                necessary edges.

                                                later,

                                                Mike C.

                                                >Externally-based goals cause me much grief, since they are nearly always
                                                >someone else's idea of right that I'm trying to accommodate. I try to
                                                >continue to follow my own path regardless of what is expected of me -
                                                >usually
                                                >I'm slowed down by outside influences, but not stopped.
                                                >


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                                              • Leroy Flannigan
                                                ... The 4-year-old wheeled around the doctor s waiting room on a push bike 2 feet tall. Turning to her mother, she sighed deeply and stated, Oh, how i wish for
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Nov 30, 2001
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                                                  --- lisa wrote:

                                                  The 4-year-old wheeled around the doctor's waiting
                                                  room on a push bike 2 feet tall. Turning to her
                                                  mother, she sighed deeply and stated, Oh, how i wish
                                                  for the good old days.(this actually happened about 3
                                                  weeks ago)
                                                  Your turn!

                                                  Hi Lisa,

                                                  Sorry I missed responding. It's a cute observation. I
                                                  can picture it in my mind. Kids are amazing.

                                                  I don't know if I have anything for LOL now.
                                                  I'll be in touch when I think of something!

                                                  Leroy

                                                  PS I like your friendship tree :-)
                                                  Keep the Tao Lisa, it's one's best friend, and after
                                                  that a dog (or a cat of course).



                                                  =====
                                                  No, we don't accomplish our love in a single year
                                                  as the flowers do; an immemorial sap
                                                  ---Rainer Maria Rilke

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                                                • lisa
                                                  ... Hi Leroy :) ... Particularly when you regard them as being prodigious teachers, rather than clay to be molded... my children travel along well on their
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Dec 2, 2001
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                                                    --- In TaoTalk@y..., Leroy Flannigan <leroyflannigan@y...> wrote:
                                                    > --- lisa wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > The 4-year-old wheeled around the doctor's waiting
                                                    > room on a push bike 2 feet tall. Turning to her
                                                    > mother, she sighed deeply and stated, Oh, how i wish
                                                    > for the good old days.(this actually happened about 3
                                                    > weeks ago)
                                                    > Your turn!
                                                    >
                                                    > Hi Lisa,
                                                    >

                                                    Hi Leroy :)

                                                    > Sorry I missed responding. It's a cute observation. I
                                                    > can picture it in my mind. Kids are amazing.

                                                    Particularly when you regard them as being prodigious teachers,
                                                    rather than clay to be molded... my children travel along well on
                                                    their own; and it is only incidentally that I put my paddle in the
                                                    water with them.

                                                    > I don't know if I have anything for LOL now.
                                                    > I'll be in touch when I think of something!

                                                    I'm counting on it!

                                                    >
                                                    > Leroy
                                                    >
                                                    > PS I like your friendship tree :-)

                                                    You would like the keeper of the friendship tree too. Too bad he is
                                                    too shy (for lack of a better term) to post here!


                                                    > Keep the Tao Lisa, it's one's best friend, and after
                                                    > that a dog (or a cat of course).
                                                    >

                                                    Thanks, Leroy. I believe I will :)

                                                    til next (lol) time,

                                                    Lisa

                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > =====
                                                    > No, we don't accomplish our love in a single year
                                                    > as the flowers do; an immemorial sap
                                                    > ---Rainer Maria Rilke
                                                    >
                                                    > _______________________________________________________
                                                    > Build your own website in minutes and for free at
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                                                  • demosthe01
                                                    Tao is your best friend? Like a piece of pitted marble. ... http://ca.geocities.com
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Jan 1, 2002
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                                                      Tao is your best friend?

                                                      Like a piece of pitted marble.

                                                      --- In TaoTalk@y..., Leroy Flannigan <leroyflannigan@y...> wrote:
                                                      > --- lisa wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > The 4-year-old wheeled around the doctor's waiting
                                                      > room on a push bike 2 feet tall. Turning to her
                                                      > mother, she sighed deeply and stated, Oh, how i wish
                                                      > for the good old days.(this actually happened about 3
                                                      > weeks ago)
                                                      > Your turn!
                                                      >
                                                      > Hi Lisa,
                                                      >
                                                      > Sorry I missed responding. It's a cute observation. I
                                                      > can picture it in my mind. Kids are amazing.
                                                      >
                                                      > I don't know if I have anything for LOL now.
                                                      > I'll be in touch when I think of something!
                                                      >
                                                      > Leroy
                                                      >
                                                      > PS I like your friendship tree :-)
                                                      > Keep the Tao Lisa, it's one's best friend, and after
                                                      > that a dog (or a cat of course).
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > =====
                                                      > No, we don't accomplish our love in a single year
                                                      > as the flowers do; an immemorial sap
                                                      > ---Rainer Maria Rilke
                                                      >
                                                      > _______________________________________________________
                                                      > Build your own website in minutes and for free at
                                                      http://ca.geocities.com
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