Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Guodian Dao De Jing chapter 5

Expand Messages
  • Thomas
    The Guodian tomb text (300 B.C.) of chapter 5 of the Dao De Jing only contains the core of the chapter as we now know it. And doesn t contain the initial
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 1, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      The Guodian tomb text (300 B.C.) of chapter 5 of the Dao De Jing only
      contains the core of the chapter as we now know it. And doesn't contain the
      initial anit-"ren" (anti-Goodness), anti-Confucian attack. So it is likely
      that this core was updated later with an anti-Confucian introduction and a
      conclusion. Here's how it's made up (transl. LaFargue):

      Later anti-Confucian introduction:
      "Heaven and Earth are not Good (ren)
      they treat the thousands of things like straw dogs.
      The wise person is not Good
      he treats the hundred clans like straw dogs."

      Older middle part - in Guodian:
      "The space between Heaven and Earth
      isn't it like bellows?
      Empty but not shrivelled up,
      set in motion and always more comes out."

      Later ending:
      "Much talking quickly exhausting
      It can't compare to watching over what is inside."

      Henricks explains that D.C. Lau (LaFargue follows this idea too) already had
      suspected that the first 2 sections were pasted together later, with "Heaven
      and Earth" as only real connection. There are other possible theories, one
      being that the Guodian DDJ was just a teacher's digest and that a more
      complete DDJ did exist in 300 B.C. The owner of the Guodian slips was
      probably a royal teacher in philosophy. The Guodian Daoist texts published
      by Robert Henricks http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0231118163 make up
      just 10%, 90% of the text are still kept secretly in China and are
      Confucian! This makes me wonder about this clear-cut separation we make
      between Confucianism and Daoism, because here we have a court instructor who
      wanted to be buried with his favorite texts of BOTH schools! Greetings,
      Thomas
      My Daoist page:
      http://www.geocities.com/hrt236/dao.html
    • lisa
      Thomas wrote: [...] The Guodian Daoist texts published ... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0231118163 make up ... make ... instructor
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 1, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        "Thomas" <trs236@b...> wrote:

        [...]

        The Guodian Daoist texts published
        > by Robert Henricks
        http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0231118163 make up
        > just 10%, 90% of the text are still kept secretly in China and are
        > Confucian! This makes me wonder about this clear-cut separation we
        make
        > between Confucianism and Daoism, because here we have a court
        instructor who
        > wanted to be buried with his favorite texts of BOTH schools!
        Greetings,
        > Thomas
        > My Daoist page:
        > http://www.geocities.com/hrt236/dao.html

        It isn't really that surprising to me either. A very good friend of
        mine said that people in China start out as Confucians and then slide
        into Daoism. The more I read, learn, and experience, it seems almost
        as if there is a 3rd, and maybe even a 4th transformation that takes
        place, where a person returns to Confucianism with a renewed
        understanding of what the "weights and measures" are really saying
        being the 3rd, and maybe knowing the mechanics of it all and not
        really thinking about them being the 4th.

        Lisa
      • lisa
        ... [...] The Guodian Daoist texts published ... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0231118163 make up ... Do you know why they are being kept secretly?
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 1, 2000
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In TaoTalk@egroups.com, "Thomas" <trs236@b...> wrote:

          [...]

          The Guodian Daoist texts published
          > by Robert Henricks
          http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0231118163 make up
          > just 10%, 90% of the text are still kept secretly in China and are
          > Confucian!

          Do you know why they are being kept secretly? Who has access to them
          now?

          Lisa
        • Thomas
          ... De : lisa ... I probably exagerated. From what I read in Henricks it could be that the texts are not completely published in Chinese.
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 1, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            ----- Message d'origine -----
            De : "lisa " <oneof10k@...>
            > Do you know why they are being kept secretly? Who has access to them
            > now?
            >
            I probably exagerated. From what I read in Henricks it could be that the
            texts are not completely published in Chinese. I'm not sure. He writes: "It
            is important to have translations and studies of these new texts as soon as
            possible."
            Thomas

            P.S. to George Henry: I do practice Zen meditation, although somewhat
            occasionally. I also find that concentrating on my breathing in daily life,
            which I learned from Zen, is helpful to relax at times, and very useful when
            I have trouble falling asleep because of worries :)
          • George Henry
            ... hmm.. from my perspective.. meditation implies a practise.. a Chuangist has no specific practise.. the losing of one s self a life long endeavour.. one
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 2, 2000
            • 0 Attachment
              On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Thomas wrote:

              >
              > ----- Message d'origine -----
              > De : "lisa " <oneof10k@...>
              > > Do you know why they are being kept secretly? Who has access to them
              > > now?
              > >
              > I probably exagerated. From what I read in Henricks it could be that the
              > texts are not completely published in Chinese. I'm not sure. He writes: "It
              > is important to have translations and studies of these new texts as soon as
              > possible."
              > Thomas
              >
              > P.S. to George Henry: I do practice Zen meditation, although somewhat
              > occasionally. I also find that concentrating on my breathing in daily life,
              > which I learned from Zen, is helpful to relax at times, and very useful when
              > I have trouble falling asleep because of worries :)

              hmm.. from my perspective..

              meditation implies a practise.. a Chuangist has no specific
              practise.. the losing of one's self a life long endeavour..
              one falls asleep when tired or bored. the conditions for
              awakening or a 'new' realization entails the dismantling
              the concept of self. it is not a bromide. IMOH.

              ---george
            • trs236@belgacom.net
              ... Good point. About losing the self, if it s a total loss it sounds rather Buddhist... Hall & Ames (Thinking from the Han) write that the Daoist sage shifts
              Message 6 of 6 , Nov 5, 2000
              • 0 Attachment
                > meditation implies a practise.. a Chuangist has no specific
                > practise.. the losing of one's self a life long endeavour..
                > one falls asleep when tired or bored. the conditions for
                > awakening or a 'new' realization entails the dismantling
                > the concept of self. it is not a bromide. IMOH.

                Good point. About losing the self, if it's a total loss it sounds
                rather Buddhist... Hall & Ames (Thinking from the Han) write that the
                Daoist sage shifts from an objectifying [ordinary] self to a
                deferential self: "a self not only aware of the transitory relevance
                of any sort of discriminations, but capable at times of attaining
                that "soft focus" that allows her to mirror the world as it is. This
                *real* world is an indefinite complex of overlapping orders, which
                may be entertained from an indefinite number of perspectives, each
                perspective characterized by a particular focus that calls for a
                deferential relation between the [deferential] self and the
                things, events, or processes constituting these foci."
                "The deferential self has moved beyond the conventional,
                discriminating, language of mankind, and has listened to the piping
                of tian [heaven] which consist of 'blowing out a myriad different
                things, causing each of them to be itself, and all of them to take
                what they want. (Zhuangzi)"
                Greetings,
                Thomas
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.