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am trying to learn tanka here / workshop or not?

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  • Gene Murtha
    Why would anyone think Welch would knock anyone s poetry is beyond me, other then to try to improve it; I don t get it? There was NO attack on Karina, this
    Message 1 of 5 , May 1 12:01 AM
      Why would anyone think Welch would knock anyone's poetry is beyond
      me, other then to try to improve it; I don't get it? There was
      NO attack on Karina, this was a commentary to improve Karina's
      imagery. Thank god that I am not an editor!

      I've been a member here for almost 2 years and obviously I have
      learned nothing. Folks tell me tanka is like a tan renga, and I
      don't get it, since they are not close in my opinion, other than 5
      lines.

      Attack me folks, I have just posted two tanka-like poems in the past
      two days, are these tanka or not, and please feel free to rip them
      appart.

      Sincerely,

      Gene
    • Nicholas Teele
      Gene, I am sure you are right. What went on was a very lively discussion of Karina s poem in an attempt interpret it and in some cases offer suggestions about
      Message 2 of 5 , May 1 1:39 AM
        Gene,

        I am sure you are right. What went on was a very
        lively discussion of Karina's poem in an attempt
        interpret it and in some cases offer suggestions about
        it.

        And the comments in my last post were an observation
        of what appears to be a difference in what I expected
        when I joined this group and what I have found out
        since then, not an attack or criticism. It's an
        observation that has built up over the last couple of
        months. I did not mean to imply that a haiku-based
        (or haiku-born??) approach to writing tanka in English
        is wrong, only that I was very surprised by it.

        People writing tanka in English have to make their own
        rules, based on their own experiences. I'm not sure
        how much going back to the rules of writing tanka (or
        waka) in Japanese will help. Welch and Reichhold
        appear to me to be two of the leaders here in trying
        to help determine what a tanka might should be in
        English, and I will defer to them and others who have
        been active here much longer than I have to answer
        your question. And I do hope that you get comments on
        your tanka.

        If you are interested in what a tanka is to a
        Japanese, I would recommend the works of Makoto Ueda,
        Steven Carter, and Earl Miner & Robert Brower
        (especially their Japanese Court Poetry or Miner's
        Introduction to Japanese Courty Poetry). There are
        English translations of a number of essays dealing
        with Japanese poetics as well.

        Best wishes,

        Nick

        --- Gene Murtha <Genemurt@...> wrote:
        > Why would anyone think Welch would knock anyone's
        > poetry is beyond
        > me, other then to try to improve it; I don't get it?
        > There was
        > NO attack on Karina, this was a commentary to
        > improve Karina's
        > imagery. Thank god that I am not an editor!
        >
        > I've been a member here for almost 2 years and
        > obviously I have
        > learned nothing. Folks tell me tanka is like a tan
        > renga, and I
        > don't get it, since they are not close in my
        > opinion, other than 5
        > lines.
        >
        > Attack me folks, I have just posted two tanka-like
        > poems in the past
        > two days, are these tanka or not, and please feel
        > free to rip them
        > appart.
        >
        > Sincerely,
        >
        > Gene
        >
        >
      • Catdanzing@aol.com
        Nick, Perhaps you could explain why haiku and tanka are so very different in Japanese? It may be a cultural and/or linguistic difference that is not
        Message 3 of 5 , May 1 8:46 AM
          Nick,

          Perhaps you could explain why haiku and tanka are so very different in
          Japanese? It may be a cultural and/or linguistic difference that is not crossable
          but I would like to u nderstand the idea that someone who writes haiku would
          not also write tanka and vice versa.

          I do not see tanka as haiku with a couple extra lines but the forms do feel
          closely related, in English at least.

          Norla


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nicholas Teele
          Norla, Please let me take some time to work on a real answer to your question, and then get back to you. I m afraid that if I start an answer now I may
          Message 4 of 5 , May 1 10:01 AM
            Norla,

            Please let me take some time to work on a "real"
            answer to your question, and then get back to you.
            I'm afraid that if I start an answer now I may
            invariably and unintentionally imply something that
            may not be true.

            Perhaps it is safe to say, however, that haiku and
            tanka are conceptually very different. This means, in
            part, that they involve two different ways of
            perceiving and interacting with reality.



            I think that most of the people posting here do feel
            that there is a clear and meaningful difference
            between a tanka and a haiku, and am sorry if it seemed
            I implied otherwise.

            Nick






            --- Catdanzing@... wrote:
            > Nick,
            >
            > Perhaps you could explain why haiku and tanka are
            > so very different in
            > Japanese? It may be a cultural and/or linguistic
            > difference that is not crossable
            > but I would like to u nderstand the idea that
            > someone who writes haiku would
            > not also write tanka and vice versa.
            >
            > I do not see tanka as haiku with a couple extra
            > lines but the forms do feel
            > closely related, in English at least.
            >
            > Norla
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >
          • Catdanzing@aol.com
            Nick, Take your time. My question was a true question, not a challenge. I am interested in languages and the differences that occur between cultures and
            Message 5 of 5 , May 1 11:56 AM
              Nick,

              Take your time. My question was a true question, not a challenge. I am
              interested in languages and the differences that occur between cultures and people
              based on the differences among their languages.

              I remember the total conceptual change that my mind went through when I took
              Russian in high school and discovered that there were no articles and very
              little use of the personal possessive "my/mine". If one says "mother" with no
              indictaor, it means "my mother", the assumption being that if you were
              referring to someone else's mother you would have said so. Imagine what such a
              difference does to that way the two different people think. I know that even small
              language differences can cause anything from conflict to fascination among
              people - just watching Americans and Canadians or French and Cajuns talk to each
              other in the "same" language.

              So I figured that the significant differences between Japanese and English
              must make a great difference to the way they view and construct poetry.

              No apology needed, as there was no insult taken. Your viewpoint as a
              scholar/poet versed in both languages must be quite different from that of both
              sides.

              Norla


              > Subj: Re: [Tanka] and haiku
              > Date: 5/1/2004 10:14:53 AM US Mountain Standard Time
              > From: nickteele@...
              > Reply-to: Tanka@yahoogroups.com
              > To: Tanka@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent from the Internet
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Norla,
              >
              > Please let me take some time to work on a "real"
              > answer to your question, and then get back to you.
              > I'm afraid that if I start an answer now I may
              > invariably and unintentionally imply something that
              > may not be true.
              >
              > Perhaps it is safe to say, however, that haiku and
              > tanka are conceptually very different. This means, in
              > part, that they involve two different ways of
              > perceiving and interacting with reality.
              >
              >
              >
              > I think that most of the people posting here do feel
              > that there is a clear and meaningful difference
              > between a tanka and a haiku, and am sorry if it seemed
              > I implied otherwise.
              >
              > Nick
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- Catdanzing@... wrote:
              > >Nick,
              > >
              > >Perhaps you could explain why haiku and tanka are
              > >so very different in
              > >Japanese? It may be a cultural and/or linguistic
              > >difference that is not crossable
              > >but I would like to u nderstand the idea that
              > >someone who writes haiku would
              > >not also write tanka and vice versa.
              > >
              > >I do not see tanka as haiku with a couple extra
              > >lines but the forms do feel
              > >closely related, in English at least.
              > >
              > >Norla
              > >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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