Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: [Tanka] variations on a bent oak

Expand Messages
  • Debi Bender
    Hi Cindy, Thanks once again. The main thing that I m doing in these variation on a theme exercises is checking how the structures/words/images stand when
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 1, 2000
      Hi Cindy,

      Thanks once again. The main thing that I'm doing in these "variation on a
      theme" exercises is checking how the structures/words/images stand when the
      tanka is separated into two haiku at the pivot, and also when it is
      reworded/rewritten as sijo or other forms. (I don't think tanka must separate
      easily into two haiku at all times, so the exercise is specific to whatever
      tanka I've chosen to play with)...

      ...So the two resulting haiku are simply the two parts of the tanka, split,
      and slightly reworded if needed, since the last 2 lines of tanka are sometimes
      too long for haiku. These two haiku and the 2 parts of the tanka are different
      aspects of one scene; I'm not trying to say the same thing twice in two
      different ways. It is an exercise I'm doing to sharpen my wording. I like
      doing the sijo best, I think, because it goes further into scenes than haiku
      and tanka. Doing the tanka and ku first, helps me to narrow my focus of the
      image for writing the sijo, like choosing several colors on a palette to make
      the painting, or several notes in a musical phrase to set the melody or theme.
      Besides that, it's fun to do.

      I understand the aversion to the harshness of two "t" sounds in "permanent
      bent". I liked the hardness for this particular person and poem. The "potted
      plants," phrase has the same hardness (although I like "bedding" since bed and
      sleep have relationship to death or impermanance, too). "Od gal's" also has a
      hard edge, implied, not auditory, but rather a harder image than "woman," or
      "gardener". My experimental juxtaposition of harsh/soft sounds & images with
      permanance/impermanance and life/death may be a little too much for the short,
      lyrical sijo form.
      The many lively, popping "p's" in the last line may make for too much of a
      tongue twister, also. "it's" preceding "shadows" was a tongue twister for me,
      so I replaced it with "the".

      I may get too experimental for the classicist of any genre, but I love both
      tradition and form as well as playing with it, even if it becomes something
      other than the genre, and even if it is unsuccessful. To me, the end product
      is not as important as what I'm hopefully learning along the way, and your
      input helps me to learn and see from other viewpoints. Again, you also help me
      to better understand my own intent in writing this poem, too, since so much of
      it is done from impression and sense, while the meanings and purposes of the
      images and metaphors come from the subconscious or unconscious...like dreams.
      You help me to interpret and/or define my "dream" by making me examine it more
      closely.

      I think the "sijo" may end up as:

      Permanent bent of one oak tree, she leans into a shadowed bed.
      Which potted plants might thrive beyond the shortened reach of summer's light?
      The old gal's polyester shares pink shades with her impatiens.

      Maybe not a lyrical or well done sijo, I'm not sure. There are also some
      structure flaws like the syllable count in "she leans/into a shadowed bed" and
      "The old gal's polyester/" with no breaks...but I appreciate your input that
      has made me reexamine it, rethink it, reword it, etc. It may not be borscht
      yet.

      Thanks, my friend,

      Debi



      Hi Debi,

      I almost "considered" not commenting originally because I'm
      not a gardener. It's not because I don't live in Florida. My biggest
      blunder in my critique, however, was when I stated I liked the second
      version of your haiku the best. These haiku were two different scenes
      entirely.
      My reason on choosing "bend" instead of "bent" had nothing
      to do with improper usage. It had to do with sound. The "ent" in
      permanent followed by the "ent" in bent sounded too harsh. What I call
      the pow pow effect. It's hard to read aloud. In your sijo, I like "potting"
      better than "bedding." In my opinion, I would go with "old woman."

      Thanks.

      Cindy

      Debi Bender wrote:

      > Thanks, Cindy, for the thoughtful c/c. I forget not everyone lives in
      Florida
      > where impatiens are a regular and popular choice to plant in beds around the
      > multitudinous oak trees, since they can take the shade. To me, it seems a
      > natural to understand that the old woman is also "bent" as she looks over
      her
      > potted plant choices for spring planting around her oak tree and chooses
      pink
      > impatiens. Perhaps "bedding" plants would be a better choice of words,
      > although I didn't want to use an "ing" word in the sijo, so chose "potted."
      > But plants can be "potted" without being "bedding" plants, so "potted" is a
      > weak choice.
      >


      > Debi writes:
      >
      > Here is a revision with "bedding" used. Does it make it any more clear for
      > you? Or does the "bent oak" still seem to need clarification? I really don't
      > like saying..."at the bent oak," or another prepositional phrase since, to
      me,
      > it erases the image that she is bending, too...it removes the implied link
      > between her and the tree that I see. -Debi
      >
      > variations on a bent oak
      > from the neighborhood this afternoon...
      >
      > (tanka)
      >
      > bent oak
      > an old woman considers
      > bedding plants
      > impatiens the same shade
      > as her pink polyester
      >
      > ------
      > Cindy wrote:
      > I like your second version much better. It shows the scene as it is. The
      > first
      > version is not as clear. -Cindy
      >
      > Debi writes:
      >
      > I've changed "potting" to "bedding" here, too. I don't like the idea of
      > "shade" plants which would be the other choice. The other thought is to say
      > "with the bent oak". Nah. That would be a run-on sentence-ku. - Debi
      >
      > (2 haiku)
      >
      > bent oak
      > an old woman considers
      > bedding plants
      >
      > potted plants
      > impatiens the pink
      > of her polyester
      >
      > ---
      >
      > Cindy wrote:
      > It's should be its. After permanent, I would use "bend" instead. Also,
      > I would not use the informal "old gal's." It doesn't fit with the beautiful
      > flow of the rest of the sijo. I think your sijo is the strongest followed
      > by the second version of your haiku. You do the little details so well.
      > For example, "permanent" ties in with the polyester fabric, "permanent
      press."
      > I'm sure, as always, you planned it that way. Keep up the good work,
      Debi! -
      > Cindy
      >
      > Debi writes:
      >
      > Yes, you saw rightly...the words have layers of meaning...and No, on this
      poem
      > I want "bent," because it I'm using it as a noun which means "a strong
      > inclination," which includes both the hard visual strength of the tree's
      angle
      > and the old woman's will to live; That will is reflected in spring
      gardening,
      > thinking about which plants will thrive where sunlight is shortened under
      the
      > old bent oak. Her life/light is also shortened by years, and she wants to
      get
      > the most beauty and enjoyment out of even the deep shadows of her life.
      She's
      > a bit of a character, which "permanent bent" also expresses...she has
      > qualities and quirks (impatiens/impatience/leans - preference for pinks and
      > reds) that have set like cement - (and she has a hunchback).
      >
      > I'll have to think about changing "old gal's" since this is a more detailed
      > poem than the tanka and haiku and goes further into the scene, as you say. I
      > thought about "old girl's" but didn't like it as much. "Old woman's" is ok
      > here, but in this variation, I still find "old gal's" more fitting. I'll
      > experiment with "bedding" and "old girl's" here - "Old woman's" is more
      > formal, but I think it loses it's piss and vinegar which is the strong will
      of
      > the tree and the woman. The strength and age of an old oak, its "permanent
      > bent" and the permanent press of "polyester" (and "thrive beyond") are
      > contrasted against the impermanence of life as seen in "impatiens," which
      are
      > seasonal, her last years in "the old gal's", the "shortened reach of summer
      > light," "shadowed" and "shades" as approaching darkness/death, and "boughs"
      > also sounding as being bowed over with age. Pink is a paled shade of red, a
      > life color.
      >
      > (These were not things I was thinking about as I wrote the poem; it was the
      > language/message of the view that caught my attention and worked its way
      into
      > words).
      >
      > Well, there are some possible revisions below. I'll have to think further
      on
      > the old gal! Thanks for taking the time to critique these. I appreciate it.
      > Debi
      >
      > (sijo) revised "bedding"
      >
      > Permanent bent of one oak tree, she leans into it's shadowed boughs.
      > Which bedding plants might thrive beyond the shortened reach of summer
      light?
      > The old gal's polyester shares pink shades with her impatiens.
      >
      > possible revision #1: (flows formally, but loses p&v/meaning to me)
      >
      > Permanent bend of one oak tree, she leans into its shadowed boughs.
      > Which bedding plants might thrive beyond the shortened reach of summer
      light?
      > The old womans's polyester shares pink shades with her impatiens.
      >
      > possible revision #2:
      >
      > Permanent bent of one oak tree, she leans into its shadowed boughs.
      > Which bedding plants might thrive beyond the shortened reach of summer
      light?
      > The old girls's polyester shares pink shades with her impatiens.
      >
      > Debi Bender
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 2.9%
      > Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
      > http://click.egroups.com/1/936/2/_/203984/_/954563460/
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    • Cindy Tebo
      ... Hi Debi, I almost considered not commenting originally because I m not a gardener. It s not because I don t live in Florida. My biggest blunder in my
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 1, 2000
        Debi Bender wrote:

        > Thanks, Cindy, for the thoughtful c/c. I forget not everyone lives in Florida
        > where impatiens are a regular and popular choice to plant in beds around the
        > multitudinous oak trees, since they can take the shade. To me, it seems a
        > natural to understand that the old woman is also "bent" as she looks over her
        > potted plant choices for spring planting around her oak tree and chooses pink
        > impatiens. Perhaps "bedding" plants would be a better choice of words,
        > although I didn't want to use an "ing" word in the sijo, so chose "potted."
        > But plants can be "potted" without being "bedding" plants, so "potted" is a
        > weak choice.
        >

        Hi Debi,

        I almost "considered" not commenting originally because I'm
        not a gardener. It's not because I don't live in Florida. My biggest
        blunder in my critique, however, was when I stated I liked the second
        version of your haiku the best. These haiku were two different scenes
        entirely.
        My reason on choosing "bend" instead of "bent" had nothing
        to do with improper usage. It had to do with sound. The "ent" in
        permanent followed by the "ent" in bent sounded too harsh. What I call
        the pow pow effect. It's hard to read aloud. In your sijo, I like "potting"
        better than "bedding." In my opinion, I would go with "old woman."

        Thanks.

        Cindy


        > Debi writes:
        >
        > Here is a revision with "bedding" used. Does it make it any more clear for
        > you? Or does the "bent oak" still seem to need clarification? I really don't
        > like saying..."at the bent oak," or another prepositional phrase since, to me,
        > it erases the image that she is bending, too...it removes the implied link
        > between her and the tree that I see. -Debi
        >
        > variations on a bent oak
        > from the neighborhood this afternoon...
        >
        > (tanka)
        >
        > bent oak
        > an old woman considers
        > bedding plants
        > impatiens the same shade
        > as her pink polyester
        >
        > ------
        > Cindy wrote:
        > I like your second version much better. It shows the scene as it is. The
        > first
        > version is not as clear. -Cindy
        >
        > Debi writes:
        >
        > I've changed "potting" to "bedding" here, too. I don't like the idea of
        > "shade" plants which would be the other choice. The other thought is to say
        > "with the bent oak". Nah. That would be a run-on sentence-ku. - Debi
        >
        > (2 haiku)
        >
        > bent oak
        > an old woman considers
        > bedding plants
        >
        > potted plants
        > impatiens the pink
        > of her polyester
        >
        > ---
        >
        > Cindy wrote:
        > It's should be its. After permanent, I would use "bend" instead. Also,
        > I would not use the informal "old gal's." It doesn't fit with the beautiful
        > flow of the rest of the sijo. I think your sijo is the strongest followed
        > by the second version of your haiku. You do the little details so well.
        > For example, "permanent" ties in with the polyester fabric, "permanent press."
        > I'm sure, as always, you planned it that way. Keep up the good work, Debi! -
        > Cindy
        >
        > Debi writes:
        >
        > Yes, you saw rightly...the words have layers of meaning...and No, on this poem
        > I want "bent," because it I'm using it as a noun which means "a strong
        > inclination," which includes both the hard visual strength of the tree's angle
        > and the old woman's will to live; That will is reflected in spring gardening,
        > thinking about which plants will thrive where sunlight is shortened under the
        > old bent oak. Her life/light is also shortened by years, and she wants to get
        > the most beauty and enjoyment out of even the deep shadows of her life. She's
        > a bit of a character, which "permanent bent" also expresses...she has
        > qualities and quirks (impatiens/impatience/leans - preference for pinks and
        > reds) that have set like cement - (and she has a hunchback).
        >
        > I'll have to think about changing "old gal's" since this is a more detailed
        > poem than the tanka and haiku and goes further into the scene, as you say. I
        > thought about "old girl's" but didn't like it as much. "Old woman's" is ok
        > here, but in this variation, I still find "old gal's" more fitting. I'll
        > experiment with "bedding" and "old girl's" here - "Old woman's" is more
        > formal, but I think it loses it's piss and vinegar which is the strong will of
        > the tree and the woman. The strength and age of an old oak, its "permanent
        > bent" and the permanent press of "polyester" (and "thrive beyond") are
        > contrasted against the impermanence of life as seen in "impatiens," which are
        > seasonal, her last years in "the old gal's", the "shortened reach of summer
        > light," "shadowed" and "shades" as approaching darkness/death, and "boughs"
        > also sounding as being bowed over with age. Pink is a paled shade of red, a
        > life color.
        >
        > (These were not things I was thinking about as I wrote the poem; it was the
        > language/message of the view that caught my attention and worked its way into
        > words).
        >
        > Well, there are some possible revisions below. I'll have to think further on
        > the old gal! Thanks for taking the time to critique these. I appreciate it.
        > Debi
        >
        > (sijo) revised "bedding"
        >
        > Permanent bent of one oak tree, she leans into it's shadowed boughs.
        > Which bedding plants might thrive beyond the shortened reach of summer light?
        > The old gal's polyester shares pink shades with her impatiens.
        >
        > possible revision #1: (flows formally, but loses p&v/meaning to me)
        >
        > Permanent bend of one oak tree, she leans into its shadowed boughs.
        > Which bedding plants might thrive beyond the shortened reach of summer light?
        > The old womans's polyester shares pink shades with her impatiens.
        >
        > possible revision #2:
        >
        > Permanent bent of one oak tree, she leans into its shadowed boughs.
        > Which bedding plants might thrive beyond the shortened reach of summer light?
        > The old girls's polyester shares pink shades with her impatiens.
        >
        > Debi Bender
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 2.9%
        > Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
        > http://click.egroups.com/1/936/2/_/203984/_/954563460/
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.