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Re: [TalkAntietam] America's Bloodiest Day

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  • Bud Wilkinson
    Hi Tom, I ve seen various estimates on the number of deaths at Antietam that run as high as 6,000 or so. One figure that can t be calculated is the many from
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 10, 2002
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      Hi Tom,

      I've seen various estimates on the number of deaths at Antietam that run as
      high as 6,000
      or so. One figure that can't be calculated is the many from both sides
      that died as a
      result of wounds received on that day. I wouldn't be surprised if it
      exceeded another
      1,000.

      Terry Bell and I will, as usual, be in the Sharpsburg area for the
      weekend. Maybe we will
      run across one another again.

      Regards,
      Bud

      At 08:08 AM 9/10/02 -0400, Tom wrote:
      > >From a recent edition of Blue & Gray Magazine....
      >
      >Recently revised figures on the deaths in terrorist attacks on September 11
      >indicate that the Battle of Antietam is still the bloodiest day in American
      >history. Not counting the 19 hijackers, the current death toll from the 4
      >plane crashes is 3019, including foreigners aboard the planes and
      >non-American citizens who died in the WTC.
      >
      >Though greater than the 2388 American lives lost at Pearl Harbor, the number
      >of deaths in the 9-11 attack does not exceed the estimated 3600 Union and
      >Confederate soldiers (Americans all) who died in the one-day Battle of
      >Antietam (some estimates run well over 4000).
      >
      >Tom Shay
    • Bill and Glenna Jo Christen
      ... At Fox s Gap, the Seventeenth Michigan casualties were 27 killed and 114 wounded. Of the wounded, 17 died before the middle of December 1862. At Antietam,
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 10, 2002
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        Bud Wilkinson wrote:

        > One figure that can't be calculated is the many from both sides that died as a
        > result of wounds received on that day. I wouldn't be surprised if it exceeded
        > another 1,000.

        At Fox's Gap, the Seventeenth Michigan casualties were 27 killed and 114 wounded.
        Of the wounded, 17 died before the middle of December 1862.

        At Antietam, the regiment lost 18 killed and 87 wounded. At least 6 of the
        wounded died within a few months of the battle.

        It seems to me that the final death toll at Antietam could be five to ten
        (perhaps fifteen) percent higher than the number listed on rosters as killed that
        day.

        Bill Christen
      • rotbaron@aol.com
        In a message dated 09/10/2002 7:44:46 AM EST, gwilk@ohio.net writes:
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 10, 2002
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          In a message dated 09/10/2002 7:44:46 AM EST, gwilk@... writes:
          << Terry Bell and I will, as usual, be in the Sharpsburg area for the
          weekend. Maybe we will run across one another again. >>

          Indeed, I hope our paths cross again. I am attending the re-enactment events
          on Friday (crowds shouldn't be as horrendous as weekend) and then joining
          Rangers for the hikes on Saturday (with a quick trip into the Festival in
          between hikes).

          I'll likely be wearing an Irish Brigade t-shirt!

          Tom Shay
        • NJ Rebel
          Bill and Bud, Somewhere in my reading, I remember reading (maybe in Kathleen Ernst s groundbreaking book Too Scared to Cry ??) that farmers for weeks after the
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 10, 2002
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            Bill and Bud,

            Somewhere in my reading, I remember reading (maybe in Kathleen
            Ernst's groundbreaking book Too Scared to Cry ??) that farmers
            for weeks after the battle found corpses under bushes, etc. etc.
            Those corpses would not have been put down in either army's KIA
            column but probably in the MIA column, no?

            Your humble servant,
            Gerry Mayers
            Pvt., CS Signals,
            Longstreet's Corps

            A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

            "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
            on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
            Edward Lee

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 9:28 AM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] America's Bloodiest Day


            >
            >
            > Bud Wilkinson wrote:
            >
            > > One figure that can't be calculated is the many from both
            sides that died as a
            > > result of wounds received on that day. I wouldn't be
            surprised if it exceeded
            > > another 1,000.
            >
            > At Fox's Gap, the Seventeenth Michigan casualties were 27
            killed and 114 wounded.
            > Of the wounded, 17 died before the middle of December 1862.
            >
            > At Antietam, the regiment lost 18 killed and 87 wounded. At
            least 6 of the
            > wounded died within a few months of the battle.
            >
            > It seems to me that the final death toll at Antietam could be
            five to ten
            > (perhaps fifteen) percent higher than the number listed on
            rosters as killed that
            > day.
            >
            > Bill Christen
            >
            >
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          • NJ Rebel
            Bud, If you will be stopping by the reenactment, let me know. I would like to have the oppty to finally meet you after all the years on the old ADG etc. Your
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 10, 2002
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              Bud,

              If you will be stopping by the reenactment, let me know. I would
              like to have the oppty to finally meet you after all the years on
              the old ADG etc.

              Your humble servant,
              Gerry Mayers
              Pvt., CS Signals,
              Longstreet's Corps

              A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

              "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
              on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
              Edward Lee

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Bud Wilkinson" <gwilk@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:43 AM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] America's Bloodiest Day


              > Hi Tom,
              >
              > I've seen various estimates on the number of deaths at Antietam
              that run as
              > high as 6,000
              > or so. One figure that can't be calculated is the many from
              both sides
              > that died as a
              > result of wounds received on that day. I wouldn't be surprised
              if it
              > exceeded another
              > 1,000.
              >
              > Terry Bell and I will, as usual, be in the Sharpsburg area for
              the
              > weekend. Maybe we will
              > run across one another again.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Bud
              >
              > At 08:08 AM 9/10/02 -0400, Tom wrote:
              > > >From a recent edition of Blue & Gray Magazine....
              > >
              > >Recently revised figures on the deaths in terrorist attacks on
              September 11
              > >indicate that the Battle of Antietam is still the bloodiest
              day in American
              > >history. Not counting the 19 hijackers, the current death toll
              from the 4
              > >plane crashes is 3019, including foreigners aboard the planes
              and
              > >non-American citizens who died in the WTC.
              > >
              > >Though greater than the 2388 American lives lost at Pearl
              Harbor, the number
              > >of deaths in the 9-11 attack does not exceed the estimated
              3600 Union and
              > >Confederate soldiers (Americans all) who died in the one-day
              Battle of
              > >Antietam (some estimates run well over 4000).
              > >
              > >Tom Shay
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
              Sponsor ---------------------~-->
              > Plan to Sell a Home?
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              ------~->
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
            • Bill and Glenna Jo Christen
              ... The 17th had two missing...one deserted one returned (no info). these were probably wounded that crawled off to die. Bill
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 10, 2002
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                NJ Rebel wrote:

                > ... that farmers for weeks after the battle found corpses under bushes,
                > etc. etc. Those corpses would not have been put down in either army's KIA
                > column but probably in the MIA column, no?

                The 17th had two missing...one deserted one returned (no info).

                these were probably wounded that crawled off to die.

                Bill
              • Curt Johnson
                The various factors and multipliers are well known, although the literature is somewhat obscure. I posted this previously on another discussion group: I refer
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 10, 2002
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                  The various factors and multipliers are well known, although the literature is somewhat obscure. I posted this previously on another discussion group:

                  I refer you and anyone else with an interest in this subject to the late
                  Col. Trevor N. Dupuy's _Attrition: Forecasting Battle Casualties and
                  Equipment Losses in Modern War_. Falls Church, Va.: NOVA Pubs., 1995.
                  ISBN: 0-9638692-3-X. See esp. pp. 48-54, which discuss personnel attrition
                  relationships. In the Civil War, the ratio of WIA to KIA was 4.55. The
                  ratio of surviving wounded to battle deaths and died of wounds was 2.38.
                  These relationships have been fairly consistent since about 1700.

                  There is a massive body of literature on attrition, and much of it is
                  accessible via interlibrary loan, but the Dupuy work (to which I
                  contributed) is the best summary and analysis of all of the various studies
                  and predecessor works.

                  Curt Johnson
                  McLean, Va.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Bill and Glenna Jo Christen
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 9:28 AM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] America's Bloodiest Day




                  Bud Wilkinson wrote:

                  > One figure that can't be calculated is the many from both sides that died as a
                  > result of wounds received on that day. I wouldn't be surprised if it exceeded
                  > another 1,000.

                  At Fox's Gap, the Seventeenth Michigan casualties were 27 killed and 114 wounded.
                  Of the wounded, 17 died before the middle of December 1862.

                  At Antietam, the regiment lost 18 killed and 87 wounded. At least 6 of the
                  wounded died within a few months of the battle.

                  It seems to me that the final death toll at Antietam could be five to ten
                  (perhaps fifteen) percent higher than the number listed on rosters as killed that
                  day.

                  Bill Christen


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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • TR Livesey
                  I don t know exactly what counts as bloody , but on Sept. 8, 1900 (Sept. is not a good month for Americans), some 5000 people are to have perished in a
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 10, 2002
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                    I don't know exactly what counts as 'bloody', but on
                    Sept. 8, 1900 (Sept. is not a good month for Americans),
                    some 5000 people are to have perished in a Hurricane
                    that struck Galveston island. Nature is apparently
                    still man's worst adversary.

                    TR Livesey

                    rotbaron@... wrote:
                    >
                    > >From a recent edition of Blue & Gray Magazine....
                    >
                    > Recently revised figures on the deaths in terrorist attacks on September 11
                    > indicate that the Battle of Antietam is still the bloodiest day in American
                    > history. Not counting the 19 hijackers, the current death toll from the 4
                    > plane crashes is 3019, including foreigners aboard the planes and
                    > non-American citizens who died in the WTC.
                    >
                    > Though greater than the 2388 American lives lost at Pearl Harbor, the number
                    > of deaths in the 9-11 attack does not exceed the estimated 3600 Union and
                    > Confederate soldiers (Americans all) who died in the one-day Battle of
                    > Antietam (some estimates run well over 4000).
                    >
                    > Tom Shay
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Pa128th@aol.com
                    In a message dated 9/10/02 10:40:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Good point - what are they counting as bloody? I always thought it was casualties, not just
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 10, 2002
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                      In a message dated 9/10/02 10:40:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                      tlivesey@... writes:


                      > I don't know exactly what counts as 'bloody', but on
                      > Sept. 8, 1900 (Sept. is not a good month for Americans),
                      > some 5000 people are to have perished in a Hurricane
                      > that struck Galveston island. Nature is apparently
                      > still man's worst adversary.
                      >

                      Good point - what are they counting as bloody? I always thought it was
                      casualties, not just deaths. That's why Antietam was at the top of the list.
                      (I thought.)

                      Paula


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Bill and Glenna Jo Christen
                      ... 114 divided by 27 = 4.22 114 divided by (27+17) = 2.59 ... 87 divided by 18 = 4.83 87 divided by 24 = 3.62 (not sure exactly how many wounded died within
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 10, 2002
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                        Curt Johnson wrote:

                        > In the Civil War, the ratio of WIA to KIA was 4.55. The
                        > ratio of surviving wounded to battle deaths and died of wounds was 2.38.
                        > These relationships have been fairly consistent since about 1700.
                        >
                        > At Fox's Gap, the Seventeenth Michigan casualties were 27 killed and 114 wounded.
                        > Of the wounded, 17 died before the middle of December 1862.

                        114 divided by 27 = 4.22
                        114 divided by (27+17) = 2.59

                        > At Antietam, the regiment lost 18 killed and 87 wounded. At least 6 of the
                        > wounded died within a few months of the battle.

                        87 divided by 18 = 4.83
                        87 divided by 24 = 3.62 (not sure exactly how many wounded died within three months)

                        Interesting ratios...I'll will look into the Dupuy work.

                        I did a study of Michigan units of the "died of disease" versus "killed and died of wounds ". The ratio ranged from 156:1 to 1:1. The average for Michigan
                        troops was 2.4:1 Some other writers have quoted a there or four to one ratio. It depends on the particular regiments and their exposure to combat, unit
                        history, and the statistical sample size.

                        Bill Christen
                      • Bud Wilkinson
                        We will be in Sharpsburg tomorrow afternoon. After some time on the battlefield we normally stop at the Antietam Gallery to see JIm Kehoe. We also will make
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 11, 2002
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                          We will be in Sharpsburg tomorrow afternoon. After some time on the
                          battlefield we normally stop at the Antietam Gallery to see JIm Kehoe.
                          We also will make our annual visit to Harpers Ferry and spend most
                          of Saturday at the Heritage Festival. Our tickets for the reenactment
                          are for Sunday only. We'll look for the your IB t-shirt on Saturday.

                          Bud

                          At 10:47 AM 9/10/02 -0400, Tom wrote:
                          >In a message dated 09/10/2002 7:44:46 AM EST, gwilk@... writes:
                          ><< Terry Bell and I will, as usual, be in the Sharpsburg area for the
                          >weekend. Maybe we will run across one another again. >>
                          >
                          >Indeed, I hope our paths cross again. I am attending the re-enactment events
                          >on Friday (crowds shouldn't be as horrendous as weekend) and then joining
                          >Rangers for the hikes on Saturday (with a quick trip into the Festival in
                          >between hikes).
                          >
                          >I'll likely be wearing an Irish Brigade t-shirt!
                          >
                          >Tom Shay
                        • NJ Rebel
                          Bud, Sunday will be the AP Hill assault reenactment... I should be around my camp area earlier that day.. I will be part of Gen. Maupin s Confederate Command
                          Message 12 of 16 , Sep 11, 2002
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                            Bud,

                            Sunday will be the AP Hill assault reenactment... I should be
                            around my camp area earlier that day.. I will be part of Gen.
                            Maupin's Confederate Command HQ area... Stop by if you have time.

                            Your humble servant,
                            Gerry Mayers
                            Pvt., CS Signals,
                            Longstreet's Corps

                            A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                            "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                            on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                            Edward Lee

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Bud Wilkinson" <gwilk@...>
                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:19 AM
                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] America's Bloodiest Day


                            > We will be in Sharpsburg tomorrow afternoon. After some time
                            on the
                            > battlefield we normally stop at the Antietam Gallery to see JIm
                            Kehoe.
                            > We also will make our annual visit to Harpers Ferry and spend
                            most
                            > of Saturday at the Heritage Festival. Our tickets for the
                            reenactment
                            > are for Sunday only. We'll look for the your IB t-shirt on
                            Saturday.
                            >
                            > Bud
                            >
                          • Bud Wilkinson
                            Gerry, Will do...... what is the scheduled time for the AP Hill event? We want to be sure to get to the site on Rench Rd. early!! I remember the traffic in
                            Message 13 of 16 , Sep 11, 2002
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                              Gerry,
                              Will do...... what is the scheduled time for the AP Hill event?
                              We want to be sure to get to the site on Rench Rd. early!!
                              I remember the traffic in '97, although it was much easier
                              getting in than getting out. :>)

                              Bud

                              At 09:06 AM 9/11/02 -0400, Gerrywrote:
                              >Bud,
                              >
                              >Sunday will be the AP Hill assault reenactment... I should be
                              >around my camp area earlier that day.. I will be part of Gen.
                              >Maupin's Confederate Command HQ area... Stop by if you have time.
                              >
                              >Your humble servant,
                              >Gerry Mayers
                              >Pvt., CS Signals,
                              >Longstreet's Corps
                            • rotbaron@aol.com
                              In a message dated 09/11/2002 9:17:16 AM EST, gwilk@ohio.net writes: The A.P. Hill s Attack scenario
                              Message 14 of 16 , Sep 11, 2002
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                                In a message dated 09/11/2002 9:17:16 AM EST, gwilk@... writes:
                                << what is the scheduled time for the AP Hill event? >>

                                The A.P. Hill's Attack scenario is at 2 PM.

                                A full schedule is at:
                                http://www.antietamreenactment.org/events.htm


                                Tom Shay
                              • Bud Wilkinson
                                Thanks Tom.........
                                Message 15 of 16 , Sep 11, 2002
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                                  Thanks Tom.........

                                  At 10:34 AM 9/11/02 -0400, Tom wrote:
                                  >In a message dated 09/11/2002 9:17:16 AM EST, gwilk@... writes:
                                  ><< what is the scheduled time for the AP Hill event? >>
                                  >
                                  >The A.P. Hill's Attack scenario is at 2 PM.
                                  >
                                  >A full schedule is at:
                                  >http://www.antietamreenactment.org/events.htm
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Tom Shay
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