Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route

Expand Messages
  • Ron Church
    Paula, Thanks again, I am not familiar with ... J.M.Gould Do you know where I might find them? This is very interesting! It makes you wonder that if he
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 10 8:28 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Paula,

      Thanks again, I am not familiar with "... J.M.Gould" Do you know where I
      might find them?
      This is very interesting! It makes you wonder that if he had so little
      faith in his men, how in heavens name did he expect them to be able to wheel
      right and come up into lines of battle while under fire which they would
      have had to do if they were to fall in on Hooker's left.

      Ron



      > Ron:
      >
      > The mortuary canon was over by where the 10th Me had been sent over to the
      > east side of the Smoketown Rd. Have you checked out "The CW Journals of
      John
      > Mead Gould"? He was a major in the 10th Me. I think you can find some
      > interesting stuff.
      >
      > It appears from various research that Mansfield did not have his staff
      > officers with him at Antietam and he was deploying his troops himself.
      > Mansfield had several "green" troops with him (like he wasn't green
      > himself!), and had a fear they would all run.
      >
      > This is a quote from Alpheus Williams, . From the Cannon's Mouth. p. 125
      >
      > "Mansfield ordered the men to march in tight columns, despite protests
      from
      > his subordinates. . . . "I had five new regiments without drill or
      > discipline. (The 5 regiments were the 124-125-128 Pa, 13th NJ and 107th
      NY.)
      > General Mansfield was greatly excited. . . . Feeling that our heavy
      masses
      > of raw troops were sadly exposed, I begged him to let me deploy them in
      line
      > of battle, in which the men present by two ranks or rows instead of
      twenty,
      > as we were marching, but I could not move him. He was positive that all
      the
      > new regiments would run away."
      >
      > Paula
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • NJ Rebel
      Ron, The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into Maryland. There realistically
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 10 8:31 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Ron,

        The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which
        had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
        Maryland.

        There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be properly
        drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn how
        to load while fighting!!!!!!

        Your humble servant,
        Gerry Mayers
        Pvt., CS Signals,
        Longstreet's Corps

        A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

        "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
        on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
        Edward Lee

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Ron Church" <rchurch@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:28 PM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


        > Paula,
        >
        > Thanks again, I am not familiar with "... J.M.Gould" Do you
        know where I
        > might find them?
        > This is very interesting! It makes you wonder that if he had
        so little
        > faith in his men, how in heavens name did he expect them to be
        able to wheel
        > right and come up into lines of battle while under fire which
        they would
        > have had to do if they were to fall in on Hooker's left.
        >
        > Ron
        >
        >
        >
        > > Ron:
        > >
        > > The mortuary canon was over by where the 10th Me had been
        sent over to the
        > > east side of the Smoketown Rd. Have you checked out "The CW
        Journals of
        > John
        > > Mead Gould"? He was a major in the 10th Me. I think you can
        find some
        > > interesting stuff.
        > >
        > > It appears from various research that Mansfield did not
        have his staff
        > > officers with him at Antietam and he was deploying his troops
        himself.
        > > Mansfield had several "green" troops with him (like he wasn't
        green
        > > himself!), and had a fear they would all run.
        > >
        > > This is a quote from Alpheus Williams, . From the Cannon's
        Mouth. p. 125
        > >
        > > "Mansfield ordered the men to march in tight columns, despite
        protests
        > from
        > > his subordinates. . . . "I had five new regiments without
        drill or
        > > discipline. (The 5 regiments were the 124-125-128 Pa, 13th NJ
        and 107th
        > NY.)
        > > General Mansfield was greatly excited. . . . Feeling that
        our heavy
        > masses
        > > of raw troops were sadly exposed, I begged him to let me
        deploy them in
        > line
        > > of battle, in which the men present by two ranks or rows
        instead of
        > twenty,
        > > as we were marching, but I could not move him. He was
        positive that all
        > the
        > > new regiments would run away."
        > >
        > > Paula
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
        Sponsor ---------------------~-->
        > Free $5 Love Reading
        > Risk Free!
        > http://us.click.yahoo.com/TPvn8A/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/GmiolB/TM
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------
        ------~->
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • Pa128th@aol.com
        In a message dated 7/10/02 11:30:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@qis.net ... Ron: You can buy it in book format: The CW Journals of John Mead Gould, ed
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 10 8:40 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          In a message dated 7/10/02 11:30:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@...
          writes:


          > I am not familiar with "... J.M.Gould" Do you know where I
          > might find them?
          >

          Ron:

          You can buy it in book format: The CW Journals of John Mead Gould, ed by Wm.
          B. Jordan. ISBN: 0-935523-63-4 It is a pricy book - IIRC I paid $50.00 a
          couple of years ago - but for my research on the 128th, it was worth it.

          Paula






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ron Church
          ... From: NJ Rebel To: Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield s
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 11 3:57 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


            > Ron,
            >
            > The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which
            > had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
            > Maryland.
            >
            > There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be properly
            > drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn how
            > to load while fighting!!!!!!
            >
            > Your humble servant,
            > Gerry Mayers
            > Pvt., CS Signals,
            > Longstreet's Corps

            Gerry,

            All true. It might also be said there wasn't enough time to train their
            commander either.

            Ron
          • TR Livesey
            If you mean their commander to be Mansfield, whatever problems he may have encountered on Sept 17, lack of training was not one of them. Mansfield graduated
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 12 9:08 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              If you mean 'their commander' to be Mansfield, whatever
              problems he may have encountered on Sept 17, lack of
              training was not one of them. Mansfield graduated 2nd
              in his class at West Point, served in the Mexican
              War and earned three brevets.

              It is rather unfortunate that his last act - mistaking
              enemy troops for his own - has come to be what he is
              most remembered for. The truth is he was coming on to
              a very chaotic battlefield, and Hooker apparently
              made little or no attempt to give any information or
              direction to the XII Corps commander.

              TR Livesey

              tlivesey@...
              http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam

              Ron Church wrote:
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM
              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route
              >
              > > Ron,
              > >
              > > The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which
              > > had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
              > > Maryland.
              > >
              > > There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be properly
              > > drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn how
              > > to load while fighting!!!!!!
              > >
              > > Your humble servant,
              > > Gerry Mayers
              > > Pvt., CS Signals,
              > > Longstreet's Corps
              >
              > Gerry,
              >
              > All true. It might also be said there wasn't enough time to train their
              > commander either.
              >
              > Ron
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • NJ Rebel
              Todd, Paula, Ron and all, Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at one point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his XII
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 14 6:06 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                Todd, Paula, Ron and all,

                Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at one
                point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his XII
                Corps on the field Joe Hooker had already been wounded and was,
                unfortunately, out of the tactical situation and thereby unable
                to inform Mansfield of the actual situation.

                Your humble servant,
                Gerry Mayers
                Pvt., CS Signals,
                Longstreet's Corps

                A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                Edward Lee

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "TR Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 12:08 AM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


                > If you mean 'their commander' to be Mansfield, whatever
                > problems he may have encountered on Sept 17, lack of
                > training was not one of them. Mansfield graduated 2nd
                > in his class at West Point, served in the Mexican
                > War and earned three brevets.
                >
                > It is rather unfortunate that his last act - mistaking
                > enemy troops for his own - has come to be what he is
                > most remembered for. The truth is he was coming on to
                > a very chaotic battlefield, and Hooker apparently
                > made little or no attempt to give any information or
                > direction to the XII Corps commander.
                >
                > TR Livesey
                >
                > tlivesey@...
                > http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam
                >
                > Ron Church wrote:
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM
                > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route
                > >
                > > > Ron,
                > > >
                > > > The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments
                which
                > > > had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
                > > > Maryland.
                > > >
                > > > There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be
                properly
                > > > drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn
                how
                > > > to load while fighting!!!!!!
                > > >
                > > > Your humble servant,
                > > > Gerry Mayers
                > > > Pvt., CS Signals,
                > > > Longstreet's Corps
                > >
                > > Gerry,
                > >
                > > All true. It might also be said there wasn't enough time to
                train their
                > > commander either.
                > >
                > > Ron
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                Sponsor ---------------------~-->
                > Save on REALTOR Fees
                > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/GmiolB/TM
                > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                ------~->
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
              • Ron Church
                Gerry, I m not sure just how much information Hooker had conveyed to Mansfield, perhaps some of the others can shed more light on this. But I do have some
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 14 8:27 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Gerry,

                  I'm not sure just how much information Hooker had conveyed to Mansfield,
                  perhaps some of the others can shed more light on this. But I do have some
                  information regarding timing that might be of interest; BG Alpheus Williams
                  (now commanding XII Corps) states in his report "While the deployment was
                  going on, and before the leading regiments were fully engaged, it was
                  reported to me that the veteran and distinguished commander of the corps was
                  mortally wounded. I at once reported to Major-General Hooker on the field,
                  took from him such direction as the pressing exigencies would permit, and
                  hastened to make a disposition of the corps to meet them".

                  Williams doesn't mention anything about Hooker having been wounded. From the
                  NPS maps, Mansfield reached the "deployment" area at about 8:00 so
                  Mansfield's wounding may have happened between 8:00 and 8:30.

                  Hooker in his report states, "While my wound was being examined by the
                  surgeon, Sumner's corps appeared on the field on my immediate right, and I
                  have an indistinct recollection of having seen Sedgwick's division pass to
                  the front." Since Sumner entered the West Woods at about 9:00 it would be
                  possible that the two commanders were wounded within the same half hour.

                  Given the "exigencies" Williams referred to, unless Hooker and Mansfield met
                  or communicated earlier, it doesn't look like there was much time for
                  coordination at the corps level once the battle started.

                  Ron Church
                  Manchester MD


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 9:06 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


                  > Todd, Paula, Ron and all,
                  >
                  > Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at one
                  > point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his XII
                  > Corps on the field Joe Hooker had already been wounded and was,
                  > unfortunately, out of the tactical situation and thereby unable
                  > to inform Mansfield of the actual situation.
                  >
                  > Your humble servant,
                  > Gerry Mayers
                  > Pvt., CS Signals,
                  > Longstreet's Corps
                • NJ Rebel
                  Ron: IIRC, once Hooker s units reached the area of The Cornfield, the orchestrated plan that Mac wanted Hooker to perform on the left flank of the Confedere
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 14 8:31 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ron:

                    IIRC, once Hooker's units reached the area of The Cornfield, the
                    orchestrated "plan" that Mac wanted Hooker to perform on the left
                    flank of the Confedere line went to pieces. The battle started to
                    take on a life of its own.......

                    Your humble servant,
                    Gerry Mayers
                    Pvt., CS Signals,
                    Longstreet's Corps

                    A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                    "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                    on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                    Edward Lee

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Ron Church" <rchurch@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 11:27 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


                    > Gerry,
                    >
                    > I'm not sure just how much information Hooker had conveyed to
                    Mansfield,
                    > perhaps some of the others can shed more light on this. But I
                    do have some
                    > information regarding timing that might be of interest; BG
                    Alpheus Williams
                    > (now commanding XII Corps) states in his report "While the
                    deployment was
                    > going on, and before the leading regiments were fully engaged,
                    it was
                    > reported to me that the veteran and distinguished commander of
                    the corps was
                    > mortally wounded. I at once reported to Major-General Hooker
                    on the field,
                    > took from him such direction as the pressing exigencies would
                    permit, and
                    > hastened to make a disposition of the corps to meet them".
                    >
                    > Williams doesn't mention anything about Hooker having been
                    wounded. From the
                    > NPS maps, Mansfield reached the "deployment" area at about 8:00
                    so
                    > Mansfield's wounding may have happened between 8:00 and 8:30.
                    >
                    > Hooker in his report states, "While my wound was being examined
                    by the
                    > surgeon, Sumner's corps appeared on the field on my immediate
                    right, and I
                    > have an indistinct recollection of having seen Sedgwick's
                    division pass to
                    > the front." Since Sumner entered the West Woods at about 9:00
                    it would be
                    > possible that the two commanders were wounded within the same
                    half hour.
                    >
                    > Given the "exigencies" Williams referred to, unless Hooker and
                    Mansfield met
                    > or communicated earlier, it doesn't look like there was much
                    time for
                    > coordination at the corps level once the battle started.
                    >
                    > Ron Church
                    > Manchester MD
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 9:06 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route
                    >
                    >
                    > > Todd, Paula, Ron and all,
                    > >
                    > > Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at
                    one
                    > > point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his
                    XII
                    > > Corps on the field Joe Hooker had already been wounded and
                    was,
                    > > unfortunately, out of the tactical situation and thereby
                    unable
                    > > to inform Mansfield of the actual situation.
                    > >
                    > > Your humble servant,
                    > > Gerry Mayers
                    > > Pvt., CS Signals,
                    > > Longstreet's Corps
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                    Sponsor ---------------------~-->
                    > Save on REALTOR Fees
                    > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/GmiolB/TM
                    > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                    ------~->
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.