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Mansfield's route

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  • Pa128th@aol.com
    In a message dated 7/10/02 10:21:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@qis.net ... Ron: The mortuary canon was over by where the 10th Me had been sent over to
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 10, 2002
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      In a message dated 7/10/02 10:21:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@...
      writes:


      > This has them heading
      > almost due south into the east woods which is at least a third of a mile,
      > maybe even half a mile west of where the Mansfield mortuary cannon is
      > located. Just can't figure out why Mansfield himself would be that far
      > east as his Corps moves to the attack (off to the west). Of course the
      > short answer is he was getting himself killed.
      >

      Ron:

      The mortuary canon was over by where the 10th Me had been sent over to the
      east side of the Smoketown Rd. Have you checked out "The CW Journals of John
      Mead Gould"? He was a major in the 10th Me. I think you can find some
      interesting stuff.

      It appears from various research that Mansfield did not have his staff
      officers with him at Antietam and he was deploying his troops himself.
      Mansfield had several "green" troops with him (like he wasn't green
      himself!), and had a fear they would all run.

      This is a quote from Alpheus Williams, . From the Cannon's Mouth. p. 125

      "Mansfield ordered the men to march in tight columns, despite protests from
      his subordinates. . . . "I had five new regiments without drill or
      discipline. (The 5 regiments were the 124-125-128 Pa, 13th NJ and 107th NY.)
      General Mansfield was greatly excited. . . . Feeling that our heavy masses
      of raw troops were sadly exposed, I begged him to let me deploy them in line
      of battle, in which the men present by two ranks or rows instead of twenty,
      as we were marching, but I could not move him. He was positive that all the
      new regiments would run away."

      Paula




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ron Church
      Paula, Thanks again, I am not familiar with ... J.M.Gould Do you know where I might find them? This is very interesting! It makes you wonder that if he
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 10, 2002
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        Paula,

        Thanks again, I am not familiar with "... J.M.Gould" Do you know where I
        might find them?
        This is very interesting! It makes you wonder that if he had so little
        faith in his men, how in heavens name did he expect them to be able to wheel
        right and come up into lines of battle while under fire which they would
        have had to do if they were to fall in on Hooker's left.

        Ron



        > Ron:
        >
        > The mortuary canon was over by where the 10th Me had been sent over to the
        > east side of the Smoketown Rd. Have you checked out "The CW Journals of
        John
        > Mead Gould"? He was a major in the 10th Me. I think you can find some
        > interesting stuff.
        >
        > It appears from various research that Mansfield did not have his staff
        > officers with him at Antietam and he was deploying his troops himself.
        > Mansfield had several "green" troops with him (like he wasn't green
        > himself!), and had a fear they would all run.
        >
        > This is a quote from Alpheus Williams, . From the Cannon's Mouth. p. 125
        >
        > "Mansfield ordered the men to march in tight columns, despite protests
        from
        > his subordinates. . . . "I had five new regiments without drill or
        > discipline. (The 5 regiments were the 124-125-128 Pa, 13th NJ and 107th
        NY.)
        > General Mansfield was greatly excited. . . . Feeling that our heavy
        masses
        > of raw troops were sadly exposed, I begged him to let me deploy them in
        line
        > of battle, in which the men present by two ranks or rows instead of
        twenty,
        > as we were marching, but I could not move him. He was positive that all
        the
        > new regiments would run away."
        >
        > Paula
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • NJ Rebel
        Ron, The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into Maryland. There realistically
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 10, 2002
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          Ron,

          The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which
          had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
          Maryland.

          There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be properly
          drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn how
          to load while fighting!!!!!!

          Your humble servant,
          Gerry Mayers
          Pvt., CS Signals,
          Longstreet's Corps

          A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

          "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
          on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
          Edward Lee

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Ron Church" <rchurch@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:28 PM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


          > Paula,
          >
          > Thanks again, I am not familiar with "... J.M.Gould" Do you
          know where I
          > might find them?
          > This is very interesting! It makes you wonder that if he had
          so little
          > faith in his men, how in heavens name did he expect them to be
          able to wheel
          > right and come up into lines of battle while under fire which
          they would
          > have had to do if they were to fall in on Hooker's left.
          >
          > Ron
          >
          >
          >
          > > Ron:
          > >
          > > The mortuary canon was over by where the 10th Me had been
          sent over to the
          > > east side of the Smoketown Rd. Have you checked out "The CW
          Journals of
          > John
          > > Mead Gould"? He was a major in the 10th Me. I think you can
          find some
          > > interesting stuff.
          > >
          > > It appears from various research that Mansfield did not
          have his staff
          > > officers with him at Antietam and he was deploying his troops
          himself.
          > > Mansfield had several "green" troops with him (like he wasn't
          green
          > > himself!), and had a fear they would all run.
          > >
          > > This is a quote from Alpheus Williams, . From the Cannon's
          Mouth. p. 125
          > >
          > > "Mansfield ordered the men to march in tight columns, despite
          protests
          > from
          > > his subordinates. . . . "I had five new regiments without
          drill or
          > > discipline. (The 5 regiments were the 124-125-128 Pa, 13th NJ
          and 107th
          > NY.)
          > > General Mansfield was greatly excited. . . . Feeling that
          our heavy
          > masses
          > > of raw troops were sadly exposed, I begged him to let me
          deploy them in
          > line
          > > of battle, in which the men present by two ranks or rows
          instead of
          > twenty,
          > > as we were marching, but I could not move him. He was
          positive that all
          > the
          > > new regiments would run away."
          > >
          > > Paula
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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        • Pa128th@aol.com
          In a message dated 7/10/02 11:30:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@qis.net ... Ron: You can buy it in book format: The CW Journals of John Mead Gould, ed
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 10, 2002
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            In a message dated 7/10/02 11:30:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@...
            writes:


            > I am not familiar with "... J.M.Gould" Do you know where I
            > might find them?
            >

            Ron:

            You can buy it in book format: The CW Journals of John Mead Gould, ed by Wm.
            B. Jordan. ISBN: 0-935523-63-4 It is a pricy book - IIRC I paid $50.00 a
            couple of years ago - but for my research on the 128th, it was worth it.

            Paula






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ron Church
            ... From: NJ Rebel To: Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield s
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 11, 2002
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


              > Ron,
              >
              > The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which
              > had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
              > Maryland.
              >
              > There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be properly
              > drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn how
              > to load while fighting!!!!!!
              >
              > Your humble servant,
              > Gerry Mayers
              > Pvt., CS Signals,
              > Longstreet's Corps

              Gerry,

              All true. It might also be said there wasn't enough time to train their
              commander either.

              Ron
            • TR Livesey
              If you mean their commander to be Mansfield, whatever problems he may have encountered on Sept 17, lack of training was not one of them. Mansfield graduated
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 12, 2002
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                If you mean 'their commander' to be Mansfield, whatever
                problems he may have encountered on Sept 17, lack of
                training was not one of them. Mansfield graduated 2nd
                in his class at West Point, served in the Mexican
                War and earned three brevets.

                It is rather unfortunate that his last act - mistaking
                enemy troops for his own - has come to be what he is
                most remembered for. The truth is he was coming on to
                a very chaotic battlefield, and Hooker apparently
                made little or no attempt to give any information or
                direction to the XII Corps commander.

                TR Livesey

                tlivesey@...
                http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam

                Ron Church wrote:
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM
                > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route
                >
                > > Ron,
                > >
                > > The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which
                > > had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
                > > Maryland.
                > >
                > > There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be properly
                > > drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn how
                > > to load while fighting!!!!!!
                > >
                > > Your humble servant,
                > > Gerry Mayers
                > > Pvt., CS Signals,
                > > Longstreet's Corps
                >
                > Gerry,
                >
                > All true. It might also be said there wasn't enough time to train their
                > commander either.
                >
                > Ron
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • NJ Rebel
                Todd, Paula, Ron and all, Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at one point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his XII
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 14, 2002
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                  Todd, Paula, Ron and all,

                  Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at one
                  point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his XII
                  Corps on the field Joe Hooker had already been wounded and was,
                  unfortunately, out of the tactical situation and thereby unable
                  to inform Mansfield of the actual situation.

                  Your humble servant,
                  Gerry Mayers
                  Pvt., CS Signals,
                  Longstreet's Corps

                  A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                  "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                  on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                  Edward Lee

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "TR Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 12:08 AM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


                  > If you mean 'their commander' to be Mansfield, whatever
                  > problems he may have encountered on Sept 17, lack of
                  > training was not one of them. Mansfield graduated 2nd
                  > in his class at West Point, served in the Mexican
                  > War and earned three brevets.
                  >
                  > It is rather unfortunate that his last act - mistaking
                  > enemy troops for his own - has come to be what he is
                  > most remembered for. The truth is he was coming on to
                  > a very chaotic battlefield, and Hooker apparently
                  > made little or no attempt to give any information or
                  > direction to the XII Corps commander.
                  >
                  > TR Livesey
                  >
                  > tlivesey@...
                  > http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam
                  >
                  > Ron Church wrote:
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                  > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route
                  > >
                  > > > Ron,
                  > > >
                  > > > The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments
                  which
                  > > > had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
                  > > > Maryland.
                  > > >
                  > > > There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be
                  properly
                  > > > drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn
                  how
                  > > > to load while fighting!!!!!!
                  > > >
                  > > > Your humble servant,
                  > > > Gerry Mayers
                  > > > Pvt., CS Signals,
                  > > > Longstreet's Corps
                  > >
                  > > Gerry,
                  > >
                  > > All true. It might also be said there wasn't enough time to
                  train their
                  > > commander either.
                  > >
                  > > Ron
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                  Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Ron Church
                  Gerry, I m not sure just how much information Hooker had conveyed to Mansfield, perhaps some of the others can shed more light on this. But I do have some
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 14, 2002
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                    Gerry,

                    I'm not sure just how much information Hooker had conveyed to Mansfield,
                    perhaps some of the others can shed more light on this. But I do have some
                    information regarding timing that might be of interest; BG Alpheus Williams
                    (now commanding XII Corps) states in his report "While the deployment was
                    going on, and before the leading regiments were fully engaged, it was
                    reported to me that the veteran and distinguished commander of the corps was
                    mortally wounded. I at once reported to Major-General Hooker on the field,
                    took from him such direction as the pressing exigencies would permit, and
                    hastened to make a disposition of the corps to meet them".

                    Williams doesn't mention anything about Hooker having been wounded. From the
                    NPS maps, Mansfield reached the "deployment" area at about 8:00 so
                    Mansfield's wounding may have happened between 8:00 and 8:30.

                    Hooker in his report states, "While my wound was being examined by the
                    surgeon, Sumner's corps appeared on the field on my immediate right, and I
                    have an indistinct recollection of having seen Sedgwick's division pass to
                    the front." Since Sumner entered the West Woods at about 9:00 it would be
                    possible that the two commanders were wounded within the same half hour.

                    Given the "exigencies" Williams referred to, unless Hooker and Mansfield met
                    or communicated earlier, it doesn't look like there was much time for
                    coordination at the corps level once the battle started.

                    Ron Church
                    Manchester MD


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 9:06 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


                    > Todd, Paula, Ron and all,
                    >
                    > Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at one
                    > point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his XII
                    > Corps on the field Joe Hooker had already been wounded and was,
                    > unfortunately, out of the tactical situation and thereby unable
                    > to inform Mansfield of the actual situation.
                    >
                    > Your humble servant,
                    > Gerry Mayers
                    > Pvt., CS Signals,
                    > Longstreet's Corps
                  • NJ Rebel
                    Ron: IIRC, once Hooker s units reached the area of The Cornfield, the orchestrated plan that Mac wanted Hooker to perform on the left flank of the Confedere
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 14, 2002
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                      Ron:

                      IIRC, once Hooker's units reached the area of The Cornfield, the
                      orchestrated "plan" that Mac wanted Hooker to perform on the left
                      flank of the Confedere line went to pieces. The battle started to
                      take on a life of its own.......

                      Your humble servant,
                      Gerry Mayers
                      Pvt., CS Signals,
                      Longstreet's Corps

                      A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                      "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                      on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                      Edward Lee

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Ron Church" <rchurch@...>
                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 11:27 PM
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


                      > Gerry,
                      >
                      > I'm not sure just how much information Hooker had conveyed to
                      Mansfield,
                      > perhaps some of the others can shed more light on this. But I
                      do have some
                      > information regarding timing that might be of interest; BG
                      Alpheus Williams
                      > (now commanding XII Corps) states in his report "While the
                      deployment was
                      > going on, and before the leading regiments were fully engaged,
                      it was
                      > reported to me that the veteran and distinguished commander of
                      the corps was
                      > mortally wounded. I at once reported to Major-General Hooker
                      on the field,
                      > took from him such direction as the pressing exigencies would
                      permit, and
                      > hastened to make a disposition of the corps to meet them".
                      >
                      > Williams doesn't mention anything about Hooker having been
                      wounded. From the
                      > NPS maps, Mansfield reached the "deployment" area at about 8:00
                      so
                      > Mansfield's wounding may have happened between 8:00 and 8:30.
                      >
                      > Hooker in his report states, "While my wound was being examined
                      by the
                      > surgeon, Sumner's corps appeared on the field on my immediate
                      right, and I
                      > have an indistinct recollection of having seen Sedgwick's
                      division pass to
                      > the front." Since Sumner entered the West Woods at about 9:00
                      it would be
                      > possible that the two commanders were wounded within the same
                      half hour.
                      >
                      > Given the "exigencies" Williams referred to, unless Hooker and
                      Mansfield met
                      > or communicated earlier, it doesn't look like there was much
                      time for
                      > coordination at the corps level once the battle started.
                      >
                      > Ron Church
                      > Manchester MD
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 9:06 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route
                      >
                      >
                      > > Todd, Paula, Ron and all,
                      > >
                      > > Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at
                      one
                      > > point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his
                      XII
                      > > Corps on the field Joe Hooker had already been wounded and
                      was,
                      > > unfortunately, out of the tactical situation and thereby
                      unable
                      > > to inform Mansfield of the actual situation.
                      > >
                      > > Your humble servant,
                      > > Gerry Mayers
                      > > Pvt., CS Signals,
                      > > Longstreet's Corps
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                      Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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                      ------~->
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
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