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Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route

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  • Ron Church
    Thank you Paula, I ve looked over the maps again and they point out pretty clearly that Greene s Div followed behind Crawford. That is to say; first west to
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 10 7:18 PM
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      Thank you Paula,

      I've looked over the maps again and they point out pretty clearly that
      Greene's Div followed behind Crawford. That is to say; first west to and
      across Smoketown Rd., then south to the battlefield. This has them heading
      almost due south into the east woods which is at least a third of a mile,
      maybe even half a mile west of where the Mansfield mortuary cannon is
      located. Just can't figure out why Mansfield himself would be that far
      east as his Corps moves to the attack (off to the west). Of course the
      short answer is he was getting himself killed.

      Ron Church
      Manchester MD


      > Hi Ron! Welcome to the group. I have researched the movements of the
      128th
      > Pa for several years. They were in Crawford's Brigade, Williams' Div of
      the
      > XII Corp. I can tell you that the latter route matches Crawford's Brigade
      > into battle, until they get to the East Words. At that point - the 10th
      Me
      > breaks off and goes into the East side of the Smoketown Rd.
      >
      > There is also, as you know, some controversy as to where he was wounded.
      He
      > was riding back and forth, deploying his troops, wounded; so it could
      have
      > been on either side of the Smoketown Rd in the area of the East Woods.
      >
      > Paula Gidjunis
    • Pa128th@aol.com
      In a message dated 7/10/02 10:21:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@qis.net ... Ron: The mortuary canon was over by where the 10th Me had been sent over to
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 10 8:11 PM
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        In a message dated 7/10/02 10:21:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@...
        writes:


        > This has them heading
        > almost due south into the east woods which is at least a third of a mile,
        > maybe even half a mile west of where the Mansfield mortuary cannon is
        > located. Just can't figure out why Mansfield himself would be that far
        > east as his Corps moves to the attack (off to the west). Of course the
        > short answer is he was getting himself killed.
        >

        Ron:

        The mortuary canon was over by where the 10th Me had been sent over to the
        east side of the Smoketown Rd. Have you checked out "The CW Journals of John
        Mead Gould"? He was a major in the 10th Me. I think you can find some
        interesting stuff.

        It appears from various research that Mansfield did not have his staff
        officers with him at Antietam and he was deploying his troops himself.
        Mansfield had several "green" troops with him (like he wasn't green
        himself!), and had a fear they would all run.

        This is a quote from Alpheus Williams, . From the Cannon's Mouth. p. 125

        "Mansfield ordered the men to march in tight columns, despite protests from
        his subordinates. . . . "I had five new regiments without drill or
        discipline. (The 5 regiments were the 124-125-128 Pa, 13th NJ and 107th NY.)
        General Mansfield was greatly excited. . . . Feeling that our heavy masses
        of raw troops were sadly exposed, I begged him to let me deploy them in line
        of battle, in which the men present by two ranks or rows instead of twenty,
        as we were marching, but I could not move him. He was positive that all the
        new regiments would run away."

        Paula




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ron Church
        Paula, Thanks again, I am not familiar with ... J.M.Gould Do you know where I might find them? This is very interesting! It makes you wonder that if he
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 10 8:28 PM
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          Paula,

          Thanks again, I am not familiar with "... J.M.Gould" Do you know where I
          might find them?
          This is very interesting! It makes you wonder that if he had so little
          faith in his men, how in heavens name did he expect them to be able to wheel
          right and come up into lines of battle while under fire which they would
          have had to do if they were to fall in on Hooker's left.

          Ron



          > Ron:
          >
          > The mortuary canon was over by where the 10th Me had been sent over to the
          > east side of the Smoketown Rd. Have you checked out "The CW Journals of
          John
          > Mead Gould"? He was a major in the 10th Me. I think you can find some
          > interesting stuff.
          >
          > It appears from various research that Mansfield did not have his staff
          > officers with him at Antietam and he was deploying his troops himself.
          > Mansfield had several "green" troops with him (like he wasn't green
          > himself!), and had a fear they would all run.
          >
          > This is a quote from Alpheus Williams, . From the Cannon's Mouth. p. 125
          >
          > "Mansfield ordered the men to march in tight columns, despite protests
          from
          > his subordinates. . . . "I had five new regiments without drill or
          > discipline. (The 5 regiments were the 124-125-128 Pa, 13th NJ and 107th
          NY.)
          > General Mansfield was greatly excited. . . . Feeling that our heavy
          masses
          > of raw troops were sadly exposed, I begged him to let me deploy them in
          line
          > of battle, in which the men present by two ranks or rows instead of
          twenty,
          > as we were marching, but I could not move him. He was positive that all
          the
          > new regiments would run away."
          >
          > Paula
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • NJ Rebel
          Ron, The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into Maryland. There realistically
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 10 8:31 PM
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            Ron,

            The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which
            had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
            Maryland.

            There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be properly
            drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn how
            to load while fighting!!!!!!

            Your humble servant,
            Gerry Mayers
            Pvt., CS Signals,
            Longstreet's Corps

            A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

            "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
            on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
            Edward Lee

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Ron Church" <rchurch@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:28 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


            > Paula,
            >
            > Thanks again, I am not familiar with "... J.M.Gould" Do you
            know where I
            > might find them?
            > This is very interesting! It makes you wonder that if he had
            so little
            > faith in his men, how in heavens name did he expect them to be
            able to wheel
            > right and come up into lines of battle while under fire which
            they would
            > have had to do if they were to fall in on Hooker's left.
            >
            > Ron
            >
            >
            >
            > > Ron:
            > >
            > > The mortuary canon was over by where the 10th Me had been
            sent over to the
            > > east side of the Smoketown Rd. Have you checked out "The CW
            Journals of
            > John
            > > Mead Gould"? He was a major in the 10th Me. I think you can
            find some
            > > interesting stuff.
            > >
            > > It appears from various research that Mansfield did not
            have his staff
            > > officers with him at Antietam and he was deploying his troops
            himself.
            > > Mansfield had several "green" troops with him (like he wasn't
            green
            > > himself!), and had a fear they would all run.
            > >
            > > This is a quote from Alpheus Williams, . From the Cannon's
            Mouth. p. 125
            > >
            > > "Mansfield ordered the men to march in tight columns, despite
            protests
            > from
            > > his subordinates. . . . "I had five new regiments without
            drill or
            > > discipline. (The 5 regiments were the 124-125-128 Pa, 13th NJ
            and 107th
            > NY.)
            > > General Mansfield was greatly excited. . . . Feeling that
            our heavy
            > masses
            > > of raw troops were sadly exposed, I begged him to let me
            deploy them in
            > line
            > > of battle, in which the men present by two ranks or rows
            instead of
            > twenty,
            > > as we were marching, but I could not move him. He was
            positive that all
            > the
            > > new regiments would run away."
            > >
            > > Paula
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
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          • Pa128th@aol.com
            In a message dated 7/10/02 11:30:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@qis.net ... Ron: You can buy it in book format: The CW Journals of John Mead Gould, ed
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 10 8:40 PM
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              In a message dated 7/10/02 11:30:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@...
              writes:


              > I am not familiar with "... J.M.Gould" Do you know where I
              > might find them?
              >

              Ron:

              You can buy it in book format: The CW Journals of John Mead Gould, ed by Wm.
              B. Jordan. ISBN: 0-935523-63-4 It is a pricy book - IIRC I paid $50.00 a
              couple of years ago - but for my research on the 128th, it was worth it.

              Paula






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ron Church
              ... From: NJ Rebel To: Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield s
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 11 3:57 PM
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


                > Ron,
                >
                > The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which
                > had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
                > Maryland.
                >
                > There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be properly
                > drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn how
                > to load while fighting!!!!!!
                >
                > Your humble servant,
                > Gerry Mayers
                > Pvt., CS Signals,
                > Longstreet's Corps

                Gerry,

                All true. It might also be said there wasn't enough time to train their
                commander either.

                Ron
              • TR Livesey
                If you mean their commander to be Mansfield, whatever problems he may have encountered on Sept 17, lack of training was not one of them. Mansfield graduated
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 12 9:08 PM
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                  If you mean 'their commander' to be Mansfield, whatever
                  problems he may have encountered on Sept 17, lack of
                  training was not one of them. Mansfield graduated 2nd
                  in his class at West Point, served in the Mexican
                  War and earned three brevets.

                  It is rather unfortunate that his last act - mistaking
                  enemy troops for his own - has come to be what he is
                  most remembered for. The truth is he was coming on to
                  a very chaotic battlefield, and Hooker apparently
                  made little or no attempt to give any information or
                  direction to the XII Corps commander.

                  TR Livesey

                  tlivesey@...
                  http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam

                  Ron Church wrote:
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                  > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route
                  >
                  > > Ron,
                  > >
                  > > The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which
                  > > had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
                  > > Maryland.
                  > >
                  > > There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be properly
                  > > drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn how
                  > > to load while fighting!!!!!!
                  > >
                  > > Your humble servant,
                  > > Gerry Mayers
                  > > Pvt., CS Signals,
                  > > Longstreet's Corps
                  >
                  > Gerry,
                  >
                  > All true. It might also be said there wasn't enough time to train their
                  > commander either.
                  >
                  > Ron
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • NJ Rebel
                  Todd, Paula, Ron and all, Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at one point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his XII
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 14 6:06 PM
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                    Todd, Paula, Ron and all,

                    Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at one
                    point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his XII
                    Corps on the field Joe Hooker had already been wounded and was,
                    unfortunately, out of the tactical situation and thereby unable
                    to inform Mansfield of the actual situation.

                    Your humble servant,
                    Gerry Mayers
                    Pvt., CS Signals,
                    Longstreet's Corps

                    A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                    "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                    on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                    Edward Lee

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "TR Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 12:08 AM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


                    > If you mean 'their commander' to be Mansfield, whatever
                    > problems he may have encountered on Sept 17, lack of
                    > training was not one of them. Mansfield graduated 2nd
                    > in his class at West Point, served in the Mexican
                    > War and earned three brevets.
                    >
                    > It is rather unfortunate that his last act - mistaking
                    > enemy troops for his own - has come to be what he is
                    > most remembered for. The truth is he was coming on to
                    > a very chaotic battlefield, and Hooker apparently
                    > made little or no attempt to give any information or
                    > direction to the XII Corps commander.
                    >
                    > TR Livesey
                    >
                    > tlivesey@...
                    > http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam
                    >
                    > Ron Church wrote:
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                    > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM
                    > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route
                    > >
                    > > > Ron,
                    > > >
                    > > > The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments
                    which
                    > > > had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
                    > > > Maryland.
                    > > >
                    > > > There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be
                    properly
                    > > > drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn
                    how
                    > > > to load while fighting!!!!!!
                    > > >
                    > > > Your humble servant,
                    > > > Gerry Mayers
                    > > > Pvt., CS Signals,
                    > > > Longstreet's Corps
                    > >
                    > > Gerry,
                    > >
                    > > All true. It might also be said there wasn't enough time to
                    train their
                    > > commander either.
                    > >
                    > > Ron
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
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                  • Ron Church
                    Gerry, I m not sure just how much information Hooker had conveyed to Mansfield, perhaps some of the others can shed more light on this. But I do have some
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 14 8:27 PM
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                      Gerry,

                      I'm not sure just how much information Hooker had conveyed to Mansfield,
                      perhaps some of the others can shed more light on this. But I do have some
                      information regarding timing that might be of interest; BG Alpheus Williams
                      (now commanding XII Corps) states in his report "While the deployment was
                      going on, and before the leading regiments were fully engaged, it was
                      reported to me that the veteran and distinguished commander of the corps was
                      mortally wounded. I at once reported to Major-General Hooker on the field,
                      took from him such direction as the pressing exigencies would permit, and
                      hastened to make a disposition of the corps to meet them".

                      Williams doesn't mention anything about Hooker having been wounded. From the
                      NPS maps, Mansfield reached the "deployment" area at about 8:00 so
                      Mansfield's wounding may have happened between 8:00 and 8:30.

                      Hooker in his report states, "While my wound was being examined by the
                      surgeon, Sumner's corps appeared on the field on my immediate right, and I
                      have an indistinct recollection of having seen Sedgwick's division pass to
                      the front." Since Sumner entered the West Woods at about 9:00 it would be
                      possible that the two commanders were wounded within the same half hour.

                      Given the "exigencies" Williams referred to, unless Hooker and Mansfield met
                      or communicated earlier, it doesn't look like there was much time for
                      coordination at the corps level once the battle started.

                      Ron Church
                      Manchester MD


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 9:06 PM
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


                      > Todd, Paula, Ron and all,
                      >
                      > Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at one
                      > point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his XII
                      > Corps on the field Joe Hooker had already been wounded and was,
                      > unfortunately, out of the tactical situation and thereby unable
                      > to inform Mansfield of the actual situation.
                      >
                      > Your humble servant,
                      > Gerry Mayers
                      > Pvt., CS Signals,
                      > Longstreet's Corps
                    • NJ Rebel
                      Ron: IIRC, once Hooker s units reached the area of The Cornfield, the orchestrated plan that Mac wanted Hooker to perform on the left flank of the Confedere
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 14 8:31 PM
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                        Ron:

                        IIRC, once Hooker's units reached the area of The Cornfield, the
                        orchestrated "plan" that Mac wanted Hooker to perform on the left
                        flank of the Confedere line went to pieces. The battle started to
                        take on a life of its own.......

                        Your humble servant,
                        Gerry Mayers
                        Pvt., CS Signals,
                        Longstreet's Corps

                        A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                        "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                        on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                        Edward Lee

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Ron Church" <rchurch@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 11:27 PM
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


                        > Gerry,
                        >
                        > I'm not sure just how much information Hooker had conveyed to
                        Mansfield,
                        > perhaps some of the others can shed more light on this. But I
                        do have some
                        > information regarding timing that might be of interest; BG
                        Alpheus Williams
                        > (now commanding XII Corps) states in his report "While the
                        deployment was
                        > going on, and before the leading regiments were fully engaged,
                        it was
                        > reported to me that the veteran and distinguished commander of
                        the corps was
                        > mortally wounded. I at once reported to Major-General Hooker
                        on the field,
                        > took from him such direction as the pressing exigencies would
                        permit, and
                        > hastened to make a disposition of the corps to meet them".
                        >
                        > Williams doesn't mention anything about Hooker having been
                        wounded. From the
                        > NPS maps, Mansfield reached the "deployment" area at about 8:00
                        so
                        > Mansfield's wounding may have happened between 8:00 and 8:30.
                        >
                        > Hooker in his report states, "While my wound was being examined
                        by the
                        > surgeon, Sumner's corps appeared on the field on my immediate
                        right, and I
                        > have an indistinct recollection of having seen Sedgwick's
                        division pass to
                        > the front." Since Sumner entered the West Woods at about 9:00
                        it would be
                        > possible that the two commanders were wounded within the same
                        half hour.
                        >
                        > Given the "exigencies" Williams referred to, unless Hooker and
                        Mansfield met
                        > or communicated earlier, it doesn't look like there was much
                        time for
                        > coordination at the corps level once the battle started.
                        >
                        > Ron Church
                        > Manchester MD
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 9:06 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route
                        >
                        >
                        > > Todd, Paula, Ron and all,
                        > >
                        > > Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at
                        one
                        > > point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his
                        XII
                        > > Corps on the field Joe Hooker had already been wounded and
                        was,
                        > > unfortunately, out of the tactical situation and thereby
                        unable
                        > > to inform Mansfield of the actual situation.
                        > >
                        > > Your humble servant,
                        > > Gerry Mayers
                        > > Pvt., CS Signals,
                        > > Longstreet's Corps
                        >
                        >
                        >
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