Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Mansfield's route

Expand Messages
  • Pa128th@aol.com
    In a message dated 7/8/02 6:16:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@qis.net ... Hi Ron! Welcome to the group. I have researched the movements of the 128th Pa
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 10, 2002
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      In a message dated 7/8/02 6:16:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@...
      writes:


      > I have seen several different maps which show somewhat different routes of
      > approach for Mansfield's XII Corps. Some show him as moving west from the
      > Line farm across Smoketown Road, then south (which would be along the west
      > side of S'town Rd), through the gap between the East and North Woods, then
      > south along the face of the East Woods Others show him as moving south from
      > the Line Farm (along the west side of S'town Rd) then sweeping right (west)
      > and coming through the East Woods. Given where he was wounded I tend to
      > think the latter is probably correct but would appreciate any input the
      > group might have.
      >

      Hi Ron! Welcome to the group. I have researched the movements of the 128th
      Pa for several years. They were in Crawford's Brigade, Williams' Div of the
      XII Corp. I can tell you that the latter route matches Crawford's Brigade
      into battle, until they get to the East Words. At that point - the 10th Me
      breaks off and goes into the East side of the Smoketown Rd.

      There is also, as you know, some controversy as to where he was wounded. He
      was riding back and forth, deploying his troops, wounded; so it could have
      been on either side of the Smoketown Rd in the area of the East Woods.

      Paula Gidjunis


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ron Church
      Thank you Paula, I ve looked over the maps again and they point out pretty clearly that Greene s Div followed behind Crawford. That is to say; first west to
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 10, 2002
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Thank you Paula,

        I've looked over the maps again and they point out pretty clearly that
        Greene's Div followed behind Crawford. That is to say; first west to and
        across Smoketown Rd., then south to the battlefield. This has them heading
        almost due south into the east woods which is at least a third of a mile,
        maybe even half a mile west of where the Mansfield mortuary cannon is
        located. Just can't figure out why Mansfield himself would be that far
        east as his Corps moves to the attack (off to the west). Of course the
        short answer is he was getting himself killed.

        Ron Church
        Manchester MD


        > Hi Ron! Welcome to the group. I have researched the movements of the
        128th
        > Pa for several years. They were in Crawford's Brigade, Williams' Div of
        the
        > XII Corp. I can tell you that the latter route matches Crawford's Brigade
        > into battle, until they get to the East Words. At that point - the 10th
        Me
        > breaks off and goes into the East side of the Smoketown Rd.
        >
        > There is also, as you know, some controversy as to where he was wounded.
        He
        > was riding back and forth, deploying his troops, wounded; so it could
        have
        > been on either side of the Smoketown Rd in the area of the East Woods.
        >
        > Paula Gidjunis
      • Pa128th@aol.com
        In a message dated 7/10/02 10:21:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@qis.net ... Ron: The mortuary canon was over by where the 10th Me had been sent over to
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 10, 2002
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          In a message dated 7/10/02 10:21:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@...
          writes:


          > This has them heading
          > almost due south into the east woods which is at least a third of a mile,
          > maybe even half a mile west of where the Mansfield mortuary cannon is
          > located. Just can't figure out why Mansfield himself would be that far
          > east as his Corps moves to the attack (off to the west). Of course the
          > short answer is he was getting himself killed.
          >

          Ron:

          The mortuary canon was over by where the 10th Me had been sent over to the
          east side of the Smoketown Rd. Have you checked out "The CW Journals of John
          Mead Gould"? He was a major in the 10th Me. I think you can find some
          interesting stuff.

          It appears from various research that Mansfield did not have his staff
          officers with him at Antietam and he was deploying his troops himself.
          Mansfield had several "green" troops with him (like he wasn't green
          himself!), and had a fear they would all run.

          This is a quote from Alpheus Williams, . From the Cannon's Mouth. p. 125

          "Mansfield ordered the men to march in tight columns, despite protests from
          his subordinates. . . . "I had five new regiments without drill or
          discipline. (The 5 regiments were the 124-125-128 Pa, 13th NJ and 107th NY.)
          General Mansfield was greatly excited. . . . Feeling that our heavy masses
          of raw troops were sadly exposed, I begged him to let me deploy them in line
          of battle, in which the men present by two ranks or rows instead of twenty,
          as we were marching, but I could not move him. He was positive that all the
          new regiments would run away."

          Paula




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ron Church
          Paula, Thanks again, I am not familiar with ... J.M.Gould Do you know where I might find them? This is very interesting! It makes you wonder that if he
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 10, 2002
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Paula,

            Thanks again, I am not familiar with "... J.M.Gould" Do you know where I
            might find them?
            This is very interesting! It makes you wonder that if he had so little
            faith in his men, how in heavens name did he expect them to be able to wheel
            right and come up into lines of battle while under fire which they would
            have had to do if they were to fall in on Hooker's left.

            Ron



            > Ron:
            >
            > The mortuary canon was over by where the 10th Me had been sent over to the
            > east side of the Smoketown Rd. Have you checked out "The CW Journals of
            John
            > Mead Gould"? He was a major in the 10th Me. I think you can find some
            > interesting stuff.
            >
            > It appears from various research that Mansfield did not have his staff
            > officers with him at Antietam and he was deploying his troops himself.
            > Mansfield had several "green" troops with him (like he wasn't green
            > himself!), and had a fear they would all run.
            >
            > This is a quote from Alpheus Williams, . From the Cannon's Mouth. p. 125
            >
            > "Mansfield ordered the men to march in tight columns, despite protests
            from
            > his subordinates. . . . "I had five new regiments without drill or
            > discipline. (The 5 regiments were the 124-125-128 Pa, 13th NJ and 107th
            NY.)
            > General Mansfield was greatly excited. . . . Feeling that our heavy
            masses
            > of raw troops were sadly exposed, I begged him to let me deploy them in
            line
            > of battle, in which the men present by two ranks or rows instead of
            twenty,
            > as we were marching, but I could not move him. He was positive that all
            the
            > new regiments would run away."
            >
            > Paula
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • NJ Rebel
            Ron, The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into Maryland. There realistically
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 10, 2002
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              Ron,

              The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which
              had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
              Maryland.

              There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be properly
              drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn how
              to load while fighting!!!!!!

              Your humble servant,
              Gerry Mayers
              Pvt., CS Signals,
              Longstreet's Corps

              A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

              "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
              on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
              Edward Lee

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Ron Church" <rchurch@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:28 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


              > Paula,
              >
              > Thanks again, I am not familiar with "... J.M.Gould" Do you
              know where I
              > might find them?
              > This is very interesting! It makes you wonder that if he had
              so little
              > faith in his men, how in heavens name did he expect them to be
              able to wheel
              > right and come up into lines of battle while under fire which
              they would
              > have had to do if they were to fall in on Hooker's left.
              >
              > Ron
              >
              >
              >
              > > Ron:
              > >
              > > The mortuary canon was over by where the 10th Me had been
              sent over to the
              > > east side of the Smoketown Rd. Have you checked out "The CW
              Journals of
              > John
              > > Mead Gould"? He was a major in the 10th Me. I think you can
              find some
              > > interesting stuff.
              > >
              > > It appears from various research that Mansfield did not
              have his staff
              > > officers with him at Antietam and he was deploying his troops
              himself.
              > > Mansfield had several "green" troops with him (like he wasn't
              green
              > > himself!), and had a fear they would all run.
              > >
              > > This is a quote from Alpheus Williams, . From the Cannon's
              Mouth. p. 125
              > >
              > > "Mansfield ordered the men to march in tight columns, despite
              protests
              > from
              > > his subordinates. . . . "I had five new regiments without
              drill or
              > > discipline. (The 5 regiments were the 124-125-128 Pa, 13th NJ
              and 107th
              > NY.)
              > > General Mansfield was greatly excited. . . . Feeling that
              our heavy
              > masses
              > > of raw troops were sadly exposed, I begged him to let me
              deploy them in
              > line
              > > of battle, in which the men present by two ranks or rows
              instead of
              > twenty,
              > > as we were marching, but I could not move him. He was
              positive that all
              > the
              > > new regiments would run away."
              > >
              > > Paula
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
              Sponsor ---------------------~-->
              > Free $5 Love Reading
              > Risk Free!
              > http://us.click.yahoo.com/TPvn8A/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/GmiolB/TM
              > ---------------------------------------------------------------
              ------~->
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
            • Pa128th@aol.com
              In a message dated 7/10/02 11:30:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@qis.net ... Ron: You can buy it in book format: The CW Journals of John Mead Gould, ed
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 10, 2002
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                In a message dated 7/10/02 11:30:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rchurch@...
                writes:


                > I am not familiar with "... J.M.Gould" Do you know where I
                > might find them?
                >

                Ron:

                You can buy it in book format: The CW Journals of John Mead Gould, ed by Wm.
                B. Jordan. ISBN: 0-935523-63-4 It is a pricy book - IIRC I paid $50.00 a
                couple of years ago - but for my research on the 128th, it was worth it.

                Paula






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ron Church
                ... From: NJ Rebel To: Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield s
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 11, 2002
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


                  > Ron,
                  >
                  > The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which
                  > had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
                  > Maryland.
                  >
                  > There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be properly
                  > drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn how
                  > to load while fighting!!!!!!
                  >
                  > Your humble servant,
                  > Gerry Mayers
                  > Pvt., CS Signals,
                  > Longstreet's Corps

                  Gerry,

                  All true. It might also be said there wasn't enough time to train their
                  commander either.

                  Ron
                • TR Livesey
                  If you mean their commander to be Mansfield, whatever problems he may have encountered on Sept 17, lack of training was not one of them. Mansfield graduated
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 12, 2002
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    If you mean 'their commander' to be Mansfield, whatever
                    problems he may have encountered on Sept 17, lack of
                    training was not one of them. Mansfield graduated 2nd
                    in his class at West Point, served in the Mexican
                    War and earned three brevets.

                    It is rather unfortunate that his last act - mistaking
                    enemy troops for his own - has come to be what he is
                    most remembered for. The truth is he was coming on to
                    a very chaotic battlefield, and Hooker apparently
                    made little or no attempt to give any information or
                    direction to the XII Corps commander.

                    TR Livesey

                    tlivesey@...
                    http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam

                    Ron Church wrote:
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route
                    >
                    > > Ron,
                    > >
                    > > The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments which
                    > > had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
                    > > Maryland.
                    > >
                    > > There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be properly
                    > > drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn how
                    > > to load while fighting!!!!!!
                    > >
                    > > Your humble servant,
                    > > Gerry Mayers
                    > > Pvt., CS Signals,
                    > > Longstreet's Corps
                    >
                    > Gerry,
                    >
                    > All true. It might also be said there wasn't enough time to train their
                    > commander either.
                    >
                    > Ron
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • NJ Rebel
                    Todd, Paula, Ron and all, Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at one point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his XII
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 14, 2002
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Todd, Paula, Ron and all,

                      Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at one
                      point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his XII
                      Corps on the field Joe Hooker had already been wounded and was,
                      unfortunately, out of the tactical situation and thereby unable
                      to inform Mansfield of the actual situation.

                      Your humble servant,
                      Gerry Mayers
                      Pvt., CS Signals,
                      Longstreet's Corps

                      A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                      "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                      on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                      Edward Lee

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "TR Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 12:08 AM
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


                      > If you mean 'their commander' to be Mansfield, whatever
                      > problems he may have encountered on Sept 17, lack of
                      > training was not one of them. Mansfield graduated 2nd
                      > in his class at West Point, served in the Mexican
                      > War and earned three brevets.
                      >
                      > It is rather unfortunate that his last act - mistaking
                      > enemy troops for his own - has come to be what he is
                      > most remembered for. The truth is he was coming on to
                      > a very chaotic battlefield, and Hooker apparently
                      > made little or no attempt to give any information or
                      > direction to the XII Corps commander.
                      >
                      > TR Livesey
                      >
                      > tlivesey@...
                      > http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam
                      >
                      > Ron Church wrote:
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                      > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:31 PM
                      > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route
                      > >
                      > > > Ron,
                      > > >
                      > > > The XII Corps was largely composed of nine month regiments
                      which
                      > > > had been hurriedly raised to meet the move of the ANV into
                      > > > Maryland.
                      > > >
                      > > > There realistically wasn't enough time for them to be
                      properly
                      > > > drilled and etc. Some units, IIRC, the 13th NJ had to learn
                      how
                      > > > to load while fighting!!!!!!
                      > > >
                      > > > Your humble servant,
                      > > > Gerry Mayers
                      > > > Pvt., CS Signals,
                      > > > Longstreet's Corps
                      > >
                      > > Gerry,
                      > >
                      > > All true. It might also be said there wasn't enough time to
                      train their
                      > > commander either.
                      > >
                      > > Ron
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                      Sponsor ---------------------~-->
                      > Save on REALTOR Fees
                      > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/GmiolB/TM
                      > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                      ------~->
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Ron Church
                      Gerry, I m not sure just how much information Hooker had conveyed to Mansfield, perhaps some of the others can shed more light on this. But I do have some
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 14, 2002
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Gerry,

                        I'm not sure just how much information Hooker had conveyed to Mansfield,
                        perhaps some of the others can shed more light on this. But I do have some
                        information regarding timing that might be of interest; BG Alpheus Williams
                        (now commanding XII Corps) states in his report "While the deployment was
                        going on, and before the leading regiments were fully engaged, it was
                        reported to me that the veteran and distinguished commander of the corps was
                        mortally wounded. I at once reported to Major-General Hooker on the field,
                        took from him such direction as the pressing exigencies would permit, and
                        hastened to make a disposition of the corps to meet them".

                        Williams doesn't mention anything about Hooker having been wounded. From the
                        NPS maps, Mansfield reached the "deployment" area at about 8:00 so
                        Mansfield's wounding may have happened between 8:00 and 8:30.

                        Hooker in his report states, "While my wound was being examined by the
                        surgeon, Sumner's corps appeared on the field on my immediate right, and I
                        have an indistinct recollection of having seen Sedgwick's division pass to
                        the front." Since Sumner entered the West Woods at about 9:00 it would be
                        possible that the two commanders were wounded within the same half hour.

                        Given the "exigencies" Williams referred to, unless Hooker and Mansfield met
                        or communicated earlier, it doesn't look like there was much time for
                        coordination at the corps level once the battle started.

                        Ron Church
                        Manchester MD


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 9:06 PM
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


                        > Todd, Paula, Ron and all,
                        >
                        > Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at one
                        > point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his XII
                        > Corps on the field Joe Hooker had already been wounded and was,
                        > unfortunately, out of the tactical situation and thereby unable
                        > to inform Mansfield of the actual situation.
                        >
                        > Your humble servant,
                        > Gerry Mayers
                        > Pvt., CS Signals,
                        > Longstreet's Corps
                      • NJ Rebel
                        Ron: IIRC, once Hooker s units reached the area of The Cornfield, the orchestrated plan that Mac wanted Hooker to perform on the left flank of the Confedere
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 14, 2002
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Ron:

                          IIRC, once Hooker's units reached the area of The Cornfield, the
                          orchestrated "plan" that Mac wanted Hooker to perform on the left
                          flank of the Confedere line went to pieces. The battle started to
                          take on a life of its own.......

                          Your humble servant,
                          Gerry Mayers
                          Pvt., CS Signals,
                          Longstreet's Corps

                          A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                          "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                          on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                          Edward Lee

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Ron Church" <rchurch@...>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 11:27 PM
                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route


                          > Gerry,
                          >
                          > I'm not sure just how much information Hooker had conveyed to
                          Mansfield,
                          > perhaps some of the others can shed more light on this. But I
                          do have some
                          > information regarding timing that might be of interest; BG
                          Alpheus Williams
                          > (now commanding XII Corps) states in his report "While the
                          deployment was
                          > going on, and before the leading regiments were fully engaged,
                          it was
                          > reported to me that the veteran and distinguished commander of
                          the corps was
                          > mortally wounded. I at once reported to Major-General Hooker
                          on the field,
                          > took from him such direction as the pressing exigencies would
                          permit, and
                          > hastened to make a disposition of the corps to meet them".
                          >
                          > Williams doesn't mention anything about Hooker having been
                          wounded. From the
                          > NPS maps, Mansfield reached the "deployment" area at about 8:00
                          so
                          > Mansfield's wounding may have happened between 8:00 and 8:30.
                          >
                          > Hooker in his report states, "While my wound was being examined
                          by the
                          > surgeon, Sumner's corps appeared on the field on my immediate
                          right, and I
                          > have an indistinct recollection of having seen Sedgwick's
                          division pass to
                          > the front." Since Sumner entered the West Woods at about 9:00
                          it would be
                          > possible that the two commanders were wounded within the same
                          half hour.
                          >
                          > Given the "exigencies" Williams referred to, unless Hooker and
                          Mansfield met
                          > or communicated earlier, it doesn't look like there was much
                          time for
                          > coordination at the corps level once the battle started.
                          >
                          > Ron Church
                          > Manchester MD
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "NJ Rebel" <gerry1952@...>
                          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 9:06 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Mansfield's route
                          >
                          >
                          > > Todd, Paula, Ron and all,
                          > >
                          > > Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading at
                          one
                          > > point or another that by the time Mansfield actually had his
                          XII
                          > > Corps on the field Joe Hooker had already been wounded and
                          was,
                          > > unfortunately, out of the tactical situation and thereby
                          unable
                          > > to inform Mansfield of the actual situation.
                          > >
                          > > Your humble servant,
                          > > Gerry Mayers
                          > > Pvt., CS Signals,
                          > > Longstreet's Corps
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                          Sponsor ---------------------~-->
                          > Save on REALTOR Fees
                          > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/GmiolB/TM
                          > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                          ------~->
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.