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Re: [TalkAntietam] Hill's Light Division March

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  • troyacool@yahoo.com
    Sorry about that- yes it s Les Jensen and his articles in the CMH, that lays out the type system. Doubt they were Federal trousers, but could be captured. Sent
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 28, 2012
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      Sorry about that- yes it's Les Jensen and his articles in the CMH, that lays out the type system.
      Doubt they were Federal trousers, but could be captured.
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

      -----Original Message-----
      From: "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
      Sender: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 08:03:50
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Reply-To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Hill's Light Division March

      Dear Mike,

      I agree... Troy could be right. Yes, Les Jensen is the one, IIRC, who actually put the labels of Richmond Deport I, II, III on the jackets.I find it very interesting that no surviving examples (so far as is known) of Type I remain, but plenty of the transitional style between I and II, and probably between II and III.

      When it went to Chickamauga, the two divisions of Longstreet's Corps that went west were all outfitted with kersey blue trowsers according to research Don Troiani did for one of his paintings. The trowsers may have been appropriated from dead Yankees.

      Hope this helps!

      Gerry

      -----Original Message-----
      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of MikeL49NYVI@...
      Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 7:16 AM
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Hill's Light Division March



      Hi Gerry:

      While I am very new to the study of CSA coats, I believe that Troy has
      it correct. I have seen where the Stonewall Brigade got new English
      Uniforms in early '63 which would have been the Tait jackets, and a cadet gray.
      Some of this type of coat appears to have been issued without the shoulder
      straps, and some with them.

      Another place I looked says that the study and research is still going on,
      as far as when the Type III's were made. From what I have seen, it seems
      to depend upon the amount of available cloth, and how many uniforms they had
      to make.

      And someone else may know a lot more about this, but I do not see a
      labeling of the jackets being done, just producing what they could, with what
      they had to work with. The labels( I, II, III )is a more modern terminology
      way to distinguish them.

      Mike L



      In a message dated 6/27/2012 11:17:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      gerry1952@... writes:

      Mike;

      I thought Depot III uniforms were not issued until 1864 at the earliest?

      Gerry

      -----Original Message-----
      From: _TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com)
      [mailto:_TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_
      (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com) ]On Behalf Of _MikeL49NYVI@..._ (mailto:MikeL49NYVI@...)
      Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:19 PM
      To: _TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com)
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Hill's Light Division March

      I have a semi-related story:
      We have been researching the 1st Texas for a CSA impression, and have
      ben getting a lot of background material from the 1st Texas in Houston.
      While
      discussing uniform coats, he told me that the 1st received new Richmond
      Depot III coats from England, which were cadet gray, after Gettysburg. It
      seems that there was so much blue in them, that at Chickamaugua, their own
      friends from Longstreet's Corps mistook them for Federals, and fired a
      couple
      volleys at them.
      So, it was not uncommon to mistake friend from foe, in any battle. Even
      when wearing the right uniform.

      Mike Lavis

      In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:12:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      _tgclemens@..._ (mailto:tgclemens@...) writes:

      Thanks Mike. I am always skeptical of regimental histories, too much
      post-war influence on the writes. I do not doubt that some guys were
      wearing
      captured clothing, but I doubt enough of them to fool anyone to think they
      were a Union unit. I recall somewhere, no time to look now, a CS soldier
      saying unlike others, he only took underclothing, not wanting to be shot
      mistakenly. Good stuff!

      ________________________________
      From: _TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com)
      [_TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com) ]
      on
      behalf of Jim Rosebrock [_pointsalines@..._
      (mailto:pointsalines@...) ]
      Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:55 AM
      To: _TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com)
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Hill's Light Division March

      Michael,
      Are William Morris's letters found in a book on the 27th North Carolina?
      Regards
      Jim Rosebrock

      ________________________________
      From: Michael Hardy
      <_mchardy@..._ (mailto:mchardy@...)
      <mailto:mchardy%40michaelchardy.com>>
      To: "_TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com)
      <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>"
      <_TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com)
      <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
      Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 10:25 AM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Hill's Light Division March

      Teej - Capt.
      William Morris, commanding the 37th North Carolina Troops, Branch's
      brigade,
      Light Division, writes home on September 23, 1862: “…we went to harpers
      Ferry & captured
      Twelve Thousand yankeys and all of there arms & stores. they surrendered
      without Much fighting. We had a fine time at harpers fery. Got Plenty
      Shugar & Coffee, in fact all
      most any thing we could wish, clothing, etc.”
      He writes again
      on September 28, 1862: “I have Clothes plenty to Doo Me all winter as we
      all
      Got what we wanted at Harpers Ferry.”
      There are
      probably other examples in other letter sets. I just happen to be more
      familiar
      with the 37th NCT.
      Kindest Regards,
      Michael
      North Carolina and the Civil War blog
      2010-11 North Carolina Historian of the Year

      ________________________________

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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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    • G E Mayers
      Mike; I do believe by 1863 it was an established practice pretty much across the armies of the CS that supply needs would be made up in part from captured
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 28, 2012
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        Mike;

        I do believe by 1863 it was an established practice pretty much across the armies of the CS that supply needs would be made up in part from captured stocks and taken from the bodies of the enemy. Trowsers were indeed taken and appropriated, as happened before the sunken road wall at Fredericksburg in December, 1862. And the troops there belonged to Longstreet's Corps.

        BTW the painting I referenced that Don Troiani did is found on page 159 of his book "Don Troiani's Regiments & Uniforms of the Civil War." If you have that book, you can also take a peek at page 145 as well.

        Gerry

        Gerry

        -----Original Message-----
        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of troyacool@...
        Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 8:10 AM
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Hill's Light Division March



        Sorry about that- yes it's Les Jensen and his articles in the CMH, that lays out the type system.
        Doubt they were Federal trousers, but could be captured.
        Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

        -----Original Message-----
        From: "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
        Sender: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 08:03:50
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Reply-To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Hill's Light Division March

        Dear Mike,

        I agree... Troy could be right. Yes, Les Jensen is the one, IIRC, who actually put the labels of Richmond Deport I, II, III on the jackets.I find it very interesting that no surviving examples (so far as is known) of Type I remain, but plenty of the transitional style between I and II, and probably between II and III.

        When it went to Chickamauga, the two divisions of Longstreet's Corps that went west were all outfitted with kersey blue trowsers according to research Don Troiani did for one of his paintings. The trowsers may have been appropriated from dead Yankees.

        Hope this helps!

        Gerry

        -----Original Message-----
        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of MikeL49NYVI@...
        Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 7:16 AM
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Hill's Light Division March



        Hi Gerry:

        While I am very new to the study of CSA coats, I believe that Troy has
        it correct. I have seen where the Stonewall Brigade got new English
        Uniforms in early '63 which would have been the Tait jackets, and a cadet gray.
        Some of this type of coat appears to have been issued without the shoulder
        straps, and some with them.

        Another place I looked says that the study and research is still going on,
        as far as when the Type III's were made. From what I have seen, it seems
        to depend upon the amount of available cloth, and how many uniforms they had
        to make.

        And someone else may know a lot more about this, but I do not see a
        labeling of the jackets being done, just producing what they could, with what
        they had to work with. The labels( I, II, III )is a more modern terminology
        way to distinguish them.

        Mike L



        In a message dated 6/27/2012 11:17:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        gerry1952@... writes:

        Mike;

        I thought Depot III uniforms were not issued until 1864 at the earliest?

        Gerry

        -----Original Message-----
        From: _TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com)
        [mailto:_TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_
        (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com) ]On Behalf Of _MikeL49NYVI@..._ (mailto:MikeL49NYVI@...)
        Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:19 PM
        To: _TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com)
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Hill's Light Division March

        I have a semi-related story:
        We have been researching the 1st Texas for a CSA impression, and have
        ben getting a lot of background material from the 1st Texas in Houston.
        While
        discussing uniform coats, he told me that the 1st received new Richmond
        Depot III coats from England, which were cadet gray, after Gettysburg. It
        seems that there was so much blue in them, that at Chickamaugua, their own
        friends from Longstreet's Corps mistook them for Federals, and fired a
        couple
        volleys at them.
        So, it was not uncommon to mistake friend from foe, in any battle. Even
        when wearing the right uniform.

        Mike Lavis

        In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:12:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        _tgclemens@..._ (mailto:tgclemens@...) writes:

        Thanks Mike. I am always skeptical of regimental histories, too much
        post-war influence on the writes. I do not doubt that some guys were
        wearing
        captured clothing, but I doubt enough of them to fool anyone to think they
        were a Union unit. I recall somewhere, no time to look now, a CS soldier
        saying unlike others, he only took underclothing, not wanting to be shot
        mistakenly. Good stuff!

        ________________________________
        From: _TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com)
        [_TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com) ]
        on
        behalf of Jim Rosebrock [_pointsalines@..._
        (mailto:pointsalines@...) ]
        Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:55 AM
        To: _TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com)
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Hill's Light Division March

        Michael,
        Are William Morris's letters found in a book on the 27th North Carolina?
        Regards
        Jim Rosebrock

        ________________________________
        From: Michael Hardy
        <_mchardy@..._ (mailto:mchardy@...)
        <mailto:mchardy%40michaelchardy.com>>
        To: "_TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com)
        <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>"
        <_TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com)
        <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
        Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 10:25 AM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Hill's Light Division March

        Teej - Capt.
        William Morris, commanding the 37th North Carolina Troops, Branch's
        brigade,
        Light Division, writes home on September 23, 1862: “…we went to harpers
        Ferry & captured
        Twelve Thousand yankeys and all of there arms & stores. they surrendered
        without Much fighting. We had a fine time at harpers fery. Got Plenty
        Shugar & Coffee, in fact all
        most any thing we could wish, clothing, etc.”
        He writes again
        on September 28, 1862: “I have Clothes plenty to Doo Me all winter as we
        all
        Got what we wanted at Harpers Ferry.”
        There are
        probably other examples in other letter sets. I just happen to be more
        familiar
        with the 37th NCT.
        Kindest Regards,
        Michael
        North Carolina and the Civil War blog
        2010-11 North Carolina Historian of the Year

        ________________________________

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • DPowell334@AOL.COM
        The trowsers were all part of the new uniform issue that most regiments in the two divisions received in late August or early September, just before the move.
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 28, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          The trowsers were all part of the new uniform issue that most regiments in
          the two divisions received in late August or early September, just before
          the move. There are numerous references to those issues in the letters and
          diaries of Kershaw's Benning's, Robertson's, and other troops.

          Dave Powell


          In a message dated 6/28/2012 7:04:03 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
          gerry1952@... writes:

          When it went to Chickamauga, the two divisions of Longstreet's Corps that
          went west were all outfitted with kersey blue trowsers according to
          research Don Troiani did for one of his paintings. The trowsers may have been
          appropriated from dead Yankees.

          Hope this helps!




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Brett Bondurant
          Thanks for all the great discussion on this. My reenactment unit and I plan to participate in the reenactment of the march of Hill s Light Division on Sept. 7
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 28, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks for all the great discussion on this. My reenactment unit and I
            plan to participate in the reenactment of the march of Hill's Light
            Division on Sept. 7 and I just wanted to portray his men's attire as
            closely as possible.


            Thanks,

            Brett Bondurant

            On 6/28/2012 9:14 AM, DPowell334@... wrote:
            >
            > The trowsers were all part of the new uniform issue that most
            > regiments in
            > the two divisions received in late August or early September, just before
            > the move. There are numerous references to those issues in the letters
            > and
            > diaries of Kershaw's Benning's, Robertson's, and other troops.
            >
            > Dave Powell
            >
            >
            > In a message dated 6/28/2012 7:04:03 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
            > gerry1952@... <mailto:gerry1952%40verizon.net> writes:
            >
            > When it went to Chickamauga, the two divisions of Longstreet's Corps that
            > went west were all outfitted with kersey blue trowsers according to
            > research Don Troiani did for one of his paintings. The trowsers may
            > have been
            > appropriated from dead Yankees.
            >
            > Hope this helps!
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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