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RE: [TalkAntietam] A/SM visit follow up

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  • Thomas G. Clemens
    That happens way too often, sorry. Contact me off-line with your address and I ll send them along. Don t worry about cost, it ll make up for my snapping at
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 3, 2012
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      That happens way too often, sorry. Contact me off-line with your address and I'll send them along. Don't worry about cost, it'll make up for my snapping at you. :-)
      Tom Clemens
      ________________________________
      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of MikeL49NYVI@... [MikeL49NYVI@...]
      Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 11:46 PM
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] A/SM visit follow up



      Thank you Tom:
      I would love some copies, and will gladly pay for any cost incurred.
      Alberger was the major of the 49th, and the Mayor of Buffalo's brother. He
      was wounded in the face by a shell fragment during the battle, and
      disabled.

      We have a difficult time finding letters and artifacts from the 49th. We
      suspect that they were in a GAR hall in Buffalo, and were supposed to end up
      at the Historical Society. They never got there.

      Mike L



      In a message dated 6/2/2012 11:40:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      tgclemens@...<mailto:tgclemens%40hagerstowncc.edu> writes:

      Agreed Mike, email is a difficult way to communicate. And I note by your
      address that you have an interest in the 49th NY, one of the 6th Corps
      regiment engaged on the 17th. In the Battlefield Board Papers are 5 or 6
      letters from veterans of the 49th, interested in copies? Mostly from someone
      named Alberger.
      Tom Clemens
      ________________________________
      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> [TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>] on
      behalf of MikeL49NYVI@...<mailto:MikeL49NYVI%40aol.com> [MikeL49NYVI@...<mailto:MikeL49NYVI%40aol.com>]
      Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 11:25 PM
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] A/SM visit follow up

      Tom, Gerry:

      I had no intention of being arrogant, or challenging, that is always
      the problem with e-mails and forums. I fully acknowledged that most of you
      know more about the entire campaign than I do. And I never think I am the
      last word on any subject. That is why I began with saying I was looking
      for a
      decent discussion.
      Also, I was on my way to a memorial service for my Great Aunt, and
      noticed I was running very late. (My 83 year old mom can get feisty) and
      while
      I felt some of my wording, especially the last sentence was "weak" I didn't
      want to redo the entire thing all over again. So I hoped that it would
      read OK.

      I guess it didn't......
      For that I do apologize

      Interestingly enough I am about to leave for Sharpsburg, to look over the
      reenactment site, and spend a bit of time on the battlefield. I have to do
      it in one day, - work issues

      I have been called many things, some printable, some not. "Commander of the
      Galaxy"
      and "Empire Builder" are my personal favorites.

      Mike Lavis

      In a message dated 6/2/2012 11:07:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      tgclemens@...<mailto:tgclemens%40hagerstowncc.edu><mailto:tgclemens%40hagerstowncc.edu> writes:

      Mike,
      I di not intend to insult you. If you'd brought up your points as
      questions or for discussion instead of arrogantly and directly challenging
      my
      statement I would have responded differently. As far as I am concerned, you
      started it. I responded inkind. If you intended otherwise it sure didn't
      show. But I did enjoy being called His Holiness, never heard that before.
      Tom Clemens
      ________________________________
      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      [TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>] on
      behalf of G E Mayers
      [gerry1952@...<mailto:gerry1952%40verizon.net><mailto:gerry1952%40verizon.net>]
      Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 10:40 PM
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] A/SM visit follow up

      Dear Mike;

      I myself nor anyone else, intended to insult you on this or any other
      board. However, perhaps you should have stated you were making "general"
      comments?

      If you can indicate what you have already read on the Campaign and battle
      and then offer specific areas for discussion (friendly, agree to disagree,
      etc.), I think we can all benefit....

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      "True patriotism sometimes requires of men to act exactly contrary, at one
      period, to that which it does at another, and the motive which impels
      them--the desire to do right--is precisely the same. The circumstances
      which
      govern their actions change; and their conduct must conform to the new
      order
      of things." -- Robert E. Lee

      -----Original Message-----
      From:
      TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><
      mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>]
      On Behalf Of
      MikeL49NYVI@...<mailto:MikeL49NYVI%40aol.com><mailto:MikeL49NYVI%40aol.com><mailto:MikeL49NYVI%40aol.com>
      Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 9:27 PM
      To:
      TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] A/SM visit follow up

      Yes, Gerry I knew exactly who His Holiness was before I wrote that. I also
      knew that I was opening myself up to what I hoped was a decent come back by
      someone who knows more about the subject than I do.

      I generalized some of my comments in order to be brief, and figuring that
      since everyone here knows a lot about the subject I didn't need to
      elaborate, or quote chapter and verse on everything. Much of what I said
      has been
      discussed since the end of the battle itself.

      However what I did not expect was a series of insults and the attitude
      that seems to say
      "How dare you question ME? I am far superior to you and everyone else,
      therefore I can pass judgement upon lowly insignificant peons and say
      whatever I wish about them. And then have all my adoring public
      congratulate me on
      my great intellect."

      I was once told by a Pastor that you can tell the maturity of a man by how
      he treats others. I have found that to be true, 100% of the time.

      Anything else I might say, or any response to the points raised would
      most likely degenerate into more of the same tone as Tom's and I do not
      think
      this forum would be the better for it.

      I think it best that I be removed from this mailing list. I can't respect
      anyone who treats people in this manner, no matter who they may be.

      Very Sincerely
      Mike Lavis

      In a message dated 6/2/2012 3:38:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      gerry1952@...<mailto:gerry1952%40verizon.net><mailto:gerry1
      952%40verizon.net><mailto:gerry1952%40verizon.net> writes:

      Good refutes Tom!

      Mike, I know Tom Clemens personally, and he is one of the few persons I
      would unhesitatingly say is a "True Expert" on the campaign and battle.

      Taken at the Flood by Harsh is a very good read and well worth the study;
      the companion book Sounding the Shallows is also good as it is Dr Harsh's
      research notes for TATF.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      "True patriotism sometimes requires of men to act exactly contrary, at one
      period, to that which it does at another, and the motive which impels
      them--the desire to do right--is precisely the same. The circumstances
      which
      govern their actions change; and their conduct must conform to the new
      order
      of things." -- Robert E. Lee

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From:
      _TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto
      :_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>_
      (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><
      mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>)
      >
      [mailto:_TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com
      ><mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>_
      (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><
      mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>)
      ]On Behalf Of
      > Thomas G. Clemens
      > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 3:22 PM
      > To:
      _TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto
      :_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>_
      (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><
      mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>)
      > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] A/SM visit follow up
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From:
      _TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto
      :_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>_
      (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><
      mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>)
      >
      [_TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>_
      (mailto:TalkAntietam@ya
      hoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>) ]
      on behalf of
      >
      _MikeL49NYVI@...<mailto:_MikeL49NYVI%40aol.com><mailto:_MikeL49NYVI%40aol.com><mailto:_MikeL49NYVI%40aol.com>_
      (mailto:MikeL49NYVI@...<mailto:MikeL49NYVI%40aol.com><mailto:MikeL49NYVI%40aol.com><mailto:MikeL49NYVI
      %40aol.com>)
      [_MikeL49NYVI@...<mailto:_MikeL49NYVI%40aol.com><mailto:_MikeL49NYVI%40aol.com><mailto:_MikeL49NYVI%40a
      ol.com>_
      (mailto:MikeL49NYVI@...<mailto:MikeL49NYVI%40aol.com><mailto:MikeL49NYVI%40aol.com><mailto:MikeL49NYVI
      %40aol.com>) ]
      > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 9:23 AM
      > To:
      _TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto
      :_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>_
      (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><
      mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>)
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] A/SM visit follow up
      >
      >
      >
      > See my comments below, I don't mind an interesting
      > discussion, but it would be nice to do some research first.
      >
      >
      >
      > Just for the sake of an interesting discussion:
      >
      > True, McClellan did revitalize the army, however, the
      > 2nd and the 6th
      > Corps had not been beaten at 2nd Bull Run. In fact
      > Mac's slowness in sending
      > them to Pope (in defiance of orders) could have been taken as
      > insubordination or even traitorous.
      >
      >
      >
      > Or extreme sanity in the face of panic. Sending the
      > 6th Corps into without artillery or trains into an
      > unknown situation was ludicrous and he said so.
      >
      > So, it was not the entire army that was beaten down.
      >
      >
      >
      > No, but those not beaten were demoralized at being
      > withdrawn from 20 miles of Richmond in defiance of any
      > logical strategy.
      >
      > He was given the opportunity of a lifetime when Lee's
      > orders were
      > discovered. Yet he moved at his own pace and allowed
      > Harpers Ferry to be
      > taken, and for Lee to concentrate at Sharpsburg. 70
      > miles in 13 days comes out
      > to about 5-1/2 miles a day. They could not have been
      > mistaken for Jackson's
      > "Foot Cavalry" at that rate.
      >
      >
      >
      > Too little space to furnish all arguments, but when
      > 191 was found his army was already in motion, no CS
      > infantry closer than 12 miles at best, no evidence of
      > the size of Lee's army, CS cavalry blocking Hagan's
      > Gap until 2 p.m., and by the time 191 was verified as
      > accurate, it was dark. He moved quickly the next day
      > and drove Lee's forces from two gaps in the afternoon,
      > one after dark, and making Lee's army retreat after dark.
      >
      > Once he got to Sharpsburg, he wasted an entire day,
      > sitting there, and
      > then telegraphed his punch by having the 1st and 12
      > corps move into
      > position the night before the battle. Lee and
      > Stonewall knew exactly where to
      > concentrate their brigades.
      >
      >
      >
      > He didn't sit the whole day, and the facts are
      > indisputable. He reconnoitered, placed artillery,
      > formulated a plan and ordered Hooker across the creek
      > by 1:00, even though he could not see across the creek
      > until 9:00.
      >
      >
      > He allowed Burnside to have a childish tantrum, which
      > made for a very
      > awkward chain of command, and a delay in getting
      > orders acted upon.
      >
      >
      >
      > See OR 19, pt. 2, for his orders to Burnside. Firm,
      > direct and to the point. And no, Burnside had no
      > tantrum, but was reluctant.
      >
      > He never left the Pry House yard to see what was
      > actually going on
      > during the battle, and had the entire 5th corps and
      > most of the 6th sit there,
      > and do nothing when the fight hung in the balance.
      >
      >
      >
      > Again this is easily and demonstrably disproved. For
      > instance, he rode across the creek in early afternoon
      > to East Woods, not returning until after 4. Have you
      > really read anything on the battle? Sykes' division
      > crossed Middle bridge and was engaged, suffered 109
      > casualties, while two of Morrell's brigades were sent
      > to, and then recalled from, East Woods. Sixth Corps
      > was sent to same place, lost 439 casualties, and was
      > under bombardment on the 17th and 18th.
      >
      > And to be frank, he really didn't "drive" Lee off the
      > battlefield.
      > The Confederates sat there the next day, almost daring
      > Mac to attack again.
      > They then left that night, when they were good and
      > ready to leave.
      >
      >
      >
      > Any casual study of the ANV will show they were
      > shattered, and if they didn't leave until were good
      > and ready to leave it begs the question, Why did they leave?
      >
      >
      > From my humble perspective and that of many
      > contemporaries, historians
      > and authors I'd say these are issues that invite the
      > need for a defense.
      >
      >
      >
      > If any professional historian wrote the inaccuracies
      > you cite above they need to be drummed out of the
      > profession. Read Joseph Harsh, Taken at the Flood,
      > Ethan Rafuse, McClellan's War and either edition of
      > Ezra Carman's manuscript of the campaign.
      >
      > Mike Lavis
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > In a message dated 6/1/2012 1:27:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      >
      _tgclemens@...<mailto:_tgclemens%40hagerstowncc.edu><mailto:_tgclemens%40hagerstowncc.edu><mailto:_tgclemens%40hagerstowncc.edu>_
      (mailto:tgclemens@...<mailto:tgclemens%40hagerstowncc.edu><mailto:tgclemens%40hagerstowncc.edu><mail
      to:tgclemens%40hagerstowncc.edu>)
      <mailto:tgclemens%40hagerstow
      > ncc.edu> writes:
      >
      > McClellan took a a beaten, dispirited and demoralized
      > force, in three days
      > had it ready to take the field. From Sept. 6 to Sept.
      > 19 he marched that
      > army 70 miles, fought two battles where he drove Lee's
      > army from the field,
      > forcing him to retreat night from one of them. Why
      > would he need
      > defending????? Name me another commander who did that.
      > Tom Clemens
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From:
      >
      _TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>_
      (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><
      mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>)
      <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yaho
      > ogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      [mailto:_TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com
      ><mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>_
      (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><
      mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>)
      <mailto:TalkAntieta
      > m%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>]
      > On Behalf Of certainreasons
      > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 12:41 AM
      > To:
      >
      _TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:_TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>_
      (mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com<mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com><
      mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>)
      <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yaho
      > ogroups.com><mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] A/SM visit follow up
      >
      > Hello All, Thanks for the helpful replies! Some
      > scatter shot responses - I
      > have some familiarity with the Maryland Campaign,
      > having read several
      > accounts of varying detail, most recently the Hoptak
      > book on South Mountain.
      > What do you folks think of his defense of McClellan?
      > Is it controversial
      > among buffs? The standard accounts always put the
      > blame for not destroying
      > Lee's Army on McC.The Priest book focusing on soldiers
      > memoirs at Antietam is a
      > favorite. Just received the Rafuse battlefield guide,
      > have not looked at
      > it yet. Not familiar with "Taken At the Flood" - is it
      > a book? Has anyone
      > used the Civil War Trails map to visit the historical
      > markers? I was
      > considering the AT for exploring South Mt., 45 min
      > each way is no problem, a few
      > hours to reach Crampton's Gap perhaps...is the South
      > Mt. Inn in the same
      > structure or the same site as the oft-mentioned
      > Mountain House? If I hire a
      > guide, how far in advance do I need to arrange it?
      > What are the going rates?
      > Am plan ning to v
      > isit next Thursday & Friday and as a general approach
      > plan to stay close
      > to a chronological order if feasible. Again, thanks
      > for the help, Chris
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
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      >
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      >
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      >
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      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
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      >
      >

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