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Re: [TalkAntietam] Carman

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  • NJ Rebel
    Tom writes: Beyond a slight depression in the ridge, which was held by the 29th ... 63rd was on the ... which it was ... failed, owing ... with round
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 15, 2002
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      Tom writes:
      <snip>> Beyond a slight depression in the ridge, which was held
      by the 29th
      > Massachusetts...were drawn up the 63rd and 88th New York. The
      63rd was on the
      > right and received several deadly volleys without replying, by
      which it was
      > greatly thinned. The charge it was ordered to make by Meagher
      failed, owing
      > to its heavy losses the first few minutes. The men began firing
      with round
      > ball and buckshot, the brigade being armed with smooth bores,
      and an officer
      > states that "it was give and take until ammunition ran out."<

      I will comment further at a later time on the entire post but I
      wanted to mention something I just learned this weekend about
      smoothbore buck and ball loads and how the load acted when
      discharged from the M1842 Springfield.

      The new Second Sergeant of my reeenacting company recently had
      the opportunity to live fire his M1842 reproduction at a target
      range in a controlled situation. He found the main ball, the .69
      calibre one, went straight and took out the heart area of the
      Union dummy target. The buckshot portion of the buck and ball
      load, fanned out and hit the dummy targets to the left and right
      of the target where the .69 calibre round had hit.

      As to the position of the IB at the Sunken Road, I think you and
      I might have to walk the ground and try to plot the positions as
      you indicated in the entire post.

      It would be interesting to see what documentary evidence the
      rangers can put together to refute the Bilby/O'Neil viewpoint.

      Your humble servant,
      Gerry Mayers
      Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
      Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

      A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

      "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
      on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
      Edward Lee
    • Dave
      I have a few questions: Is it worth getting Carman, even if I have to sell the family dog? I have the Carman maps, the Trailhead and the NPS map. Are there
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 1, 2008
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        I have a few questions:

        Is it worth getting Carman, even if I have to sell the family dog?

        I have the Carman maps, the Trailhead and the NPS map. Are there any
        other maps? Didn't I hear somewhere that someone was going to do a
        "Maps of Antietam" book in the same manner as Gottfried's "Maps of
        Gettysburg"?

        I've heard that Priest was unreliable as a source. Is this true, and in
        which ways? I wasn't very impressed with his Gettysburg work, but I'm
        too ignorant to judge his Antietam or South Moutain books (I have both).

        Did anyone post any pictures of the fording?
      • G E Mayers
        Dear Dave, Jake Pierro published his book on the entire Carman manuscript but from what I understand, there are no maps. Priest is good for getting an idea
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 1, 2008
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          Dear Dave,

          Jake Pierro published his book on the entire Carman manuscript
          but from what I understand, there are no maps.

          Priest is good for getting an idea about the chaos of the battle
          etc but in many of his footnotes, the information is not accurate
          or wrongly cited. The maps in his Before Antietam book are not
          properly drawn.

          If you have the Trailhead Graphics map which has the
          typographical contours on it, that is a very good map indeed.

          If you go to the official NPS website for
          Antietam...www.nps.gov/anti... there are downloadable pdf files
          for some of the trails you can hike at the field. Other trail
          hike guides can be had at the Visitor Center.


          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 4:06 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Carman


          >I have a few questions:
          >
          > Is it worth getting Carman, even if I have to sell the family
          > dog?
          >
          > I have the Carman maps, the Trailhead and the NPS map. Are
          > there any
          > other maps? Didn't I hear somewhere that someone was going to
          > do a
          > "Maps of Antietam" book in the same manner as Gottfried's "Maps
          > of
          > Gettysburg"?
          >
          > I've heard that Priest was unreliable as a source. Is this
          > true, and in
          > which ways? I wasn't very impressed with his Gettysburg work,
          > but I'm
          > too ignorant to judge his Antietam or South Moutain books (I
          > have both).
          >
          > Did anyone post any pictures of the fording?
          >
        • James W. Durney
          ... The Carman Ms was to be published w/o maps. Jake Pierro published his book they way Carman would have published his work. ... I enjoyed the Priest book
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 2, 2008
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            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Dear Dave,
            >
            > Jake Pierro published his book on the entire Carman manuscript
            > but from what I understand, there are no maps.

            The Carman Ms was to be published w/o maps. Jake Pierro published
            his book they way Carman would have published his work.
            >
            > Priest is good for getting an idea about the chaos of the battle
            > etc but in many of his footnotes, the information is not accurate
            > or wrongly cited. The maps in his Before Antietam book are not
            > properly drawn.

            I enjoyed the Priest book and think it is one of the more readable
            accounts of the battle. His "errors", IMO, are overstated and give
            the impression that the work is comprised.
            >
            > If you have the Trailhead Graphics map which has the
            > typographical contours on it, that is a very good map indeed.
            >

            Trailhead Graphics are some of the best battlefield maps you can buy.

            >
          • G E Mayers
            James; While Priest s books are readable they do have errors in them. I have knowledge of at least a couple instances in the footnotes where the wrong and
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 2, 2008
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              James;

              While Priest's books are readable they do have errors in them. I
              have knowledge of at least a couple instances in the footnotes
              where the wrong and totally unrelated source is quoted and also
              where the information is just simply wrong.

              The maps in the Before Antietam book are not properly drawn to
              scale. For the Antietam book, I am sure he could have received
              permission to use the Carmen/Cope maps rather than having his own
              made.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 10:29 AM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Dear Dave,
              >
              > Jake Pierro published his book on the entire Carman manuscript
              > but from what I understand, there are no maps.

              The Carman Ms was to be published w/o maps. Jake Pierro
              published
              his book they way Carman would have published his work.
              >
              > Priest is good for getting an idea about the chaos of the
              > battle
              > etc but in many of his footnotes, the information is not
              > accurate
              > or wrongly cited. The maps in his Before Antietam book are not
              > properly drawn.

              I enjoyed the Priest book and think it is one of the more
              readable
              accounts of the battle. His "errors", IMO, are overstated and
              give
              the impression that the work is comprised.
              >
              > If you have the Trailhead Graphics map which has the
              > typographical contours on it, that is a very good map indeed.
              >

              Trailhead Graphics are some of the best battlefield maps you can
              buy.

              >
            • James W. Durney
              ... Gerry, ISTM that all books have errors in them, I ve yet to find someone that isn t upset about something. A few years ago, I looked into the errors in
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 3, 2008
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                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                >
                > James;
                >
                > While Priest's books are readable they do have errors in them. I
                > have knowledge of at least a couple instances in the footnotes
                > where the wrong and totally unrelated source is quoted and also
                > where the information is just simply wrong.
                >
                > The maps in the Before Antietam book are not properly drawn to
                > scale. For the Antietam book, I am sure he could have received
                > permission to use the Carmen/Cope maps rather than having his own
                > made.
                >
                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                >
                >

                Gerry,

                ISTM that all books have errors in them, I've yet to find someone that
                isn't upset about something. A few years ago, I looked into the errors
                in Priest's book on Antietam. I don't recall finding anything that
                should be classed as major. The worst error is in his South Mt. book
                and involves a footnote citing Nolan's Iron Brigade book. The Preist
                books are very readable.

                IMO, nothing but the Bible should be taken as gospel.
              • Thomas Clemens
                Priest insists the famous episode of Longstreet s staff manning the guns of the Washington Artillery happened along the Harpers Ferry Road during the IX Corps
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 3, 2008
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                  Priest insists the famous episode of Longstreet's staff manning the guns of the Washington Artillery happened along the Harpers Ferry Road during the IX Corps attack. Several sources, including the OR's make it clear it was in the edge of the Piper Orchard behind Sunken Road. I call that "major." There are other similar errors.


                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College


                  >>> "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...> 10/03/08 12:21 PM >>>
                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > James;
                  >
                  > While Priest's books are readable they do have errors in them. I
                  > have knowledge of at least a couple instances in the footnotes
                  > where the wrong and totally unrelated source is quoted and also
                  > where the information is just simply wrong.
                  >
                  > The maps in the Before Antietam book are not properly drawn to
                  > scale. For the Antietam book, I am sure he could have received
                  > permission to use the Carmen/Cope maps rather than having his own
                  > made.
                  >
                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  >
                  >

                  Gerry,

                  ISTM that all books have errors in them, I've yet to find someone that
                  isn't upset about something. A few years ago, I looked into the errors
                  in Priest's book on Antietam. I don't recall finding anything that
                  should be classed as major. The worst error is in his South Mt. book
                  and involves a footnote citing Nolan's Iron Brigade book. The Preist
                  books are very readable.

                  IMO, nothing but the Bible should be taken as gospel.
                • G E Mayers
                  I found some other errors in the Before Antietam book and there are some mis matching footnotes in the Antietam book. That is sloppy editorship at worse and
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 3, 2008
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                    I found some other errors in the Before Antietam book and there
                    are some mis matching footnotes in the Antietam book. That is
                    sloppy editorship at worse and intellectual dishonesty at best.

                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 12:21 PM
                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > James;
                    >
                    > While Priest's books are readable they do have errors in them.
                    > I
                    > have knowledge of at least a couple instances in the footnotes
                    > where the wrong and totally unrelated source is quoted and also
                    > where the information is just simply wrong.
                    >
                    > The maps in the Before Antietam book are not properly drawn to
                    > scale. For the Antietam book, I am sure he could have received
                    > permission to use the Carmen/Cope maps rather than having his
                    > own
                    > made.
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    >

                    Gerry,

                    ISTM that all books have errors in them, I've yet to find someone
                    that
                    isn't upset about something. A few years ago, I looked into the
                    errors
                    in Priest's book on Antietam. I don't recall finding anything
                    that
                    should be classed as major. The worst error is in his South Mt.
                    book
                    and involves a footnote citing Nolan's Iron Brigade book. The
                    Preist
                    books are very readable.

                    IMO, nothing but the Bible should be taken as gospel.
                  • Dave
                    As an item of interest regarding Priest, I noticed that Stephen Recker doesn t have Soldiers Battle listed among his Antietam books on his guide page. He
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 3, 2008
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                      As an item of interest regarding Priest, I noticed that Stephen Recker
                      doesn't
                      have "Soldiers Battle" listed among his Antietam books on his guide page.
                      He does have Priest's South Mountain book listed.

                      Dave

                      G E Mayers wrote:
                      >
                      > James;
                      >
                      > While Priest's books are readable they do have errors in them. I
                      > have knowledge of at least a couple instances in the footnotes
                      > where the wrong and totally unrelated source is quoted and also
                      > where the information is just simply wrong.
                      >
                      > The maps in the Before Antietam book are not properly drawn to
                      > scale. For the Antietam book, I am sure he could have received
                      > permission to use the Carmen/Cope maps rather than having his own
                      > made.
                      >
                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      >
                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...
                      > <mailto:JWD2044%40hotmail.com>>
                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                      > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 10:29 AM
                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Dear Dave,
                      > >
                      > > Jake Pierro published his book on the entire Carman manuscript
                      > > but from what I understand, there are no maps.
                      >
                      > The Carman Ms was to be published w/o maps. Jake Pierro
                      > published
                      > his book they way Carman would have published his work.
                      > >
                      > > Priest is good for getting an idea about the chaos of the
                      > > battle
                      > > etc but in many of his footnotes, the information is not
                      > > accurate
                      > > or wrongly cited. The maps in his Before Antietam book are not
                      > > properly drawn.
                      >
                      > I enjoyed the Priest book and think it is one of the more
                      > readable
                      > accounts of the battle. His "errors", IMO, are overstated and
                      > give
                      > the impression that the work is comprised.
                      > >
                      > > If you have the Trailhead Graphics map which has the
                      > > typographical contours on it, that is a very good map indeed.
                      > >
                      >
                      > Trailhead Graphics are some of the best battlefield maps you can
                      > buy.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                    • G E Mayers
                      Maybe that is because there is not a lot of published material available on South Mountain. But there is a ton of better stuff on Antietam.... Yr. Obt. Svt. G
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 3, 2008
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                        Maybe that is because there is not a lot of published material
                        available on South Mountain. But there is a ton of better stuff
                        on Antietam....

                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 5:36 PM
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                        > As an item of interest regarding Priest, I noticed that Stephen
                        > Recker
                        > doesn't
                        > have "Soldiers Battle" listed among his Antietam books on his
                        > guide page.
                        > He does have Priest's South Mountain book listed.
                        >
                        > Dave
                        >
                        > G E Mayers wrote:
                        >>
                        >> James;
                        >>
                        >> While Priest's books are readable they do have errors in them.
                        >> I
                        >> have knowledge of at least a couple instances in the footnotes
                        >> where the wrong and totally unrelated source is quoted and
                        >> also
                        >> where the information is just simply wrong.
                        >>
                        >> The maps in the Before Antietam book are not properly drawn to
                        >> scale. For the Antietam book, I am sure he could have received
                        >> permission to use the Carmen/Cope maps rather than having his
                        >> own
                        >> made.
                        >>
                        >> Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        >> G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        >>
                        >> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
                        >> even
                        >> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        >> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                        >> from
                        >> the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        >> ----- Original Message -----
                        >> From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...
                        >> <mailto:JWD2044%40hotmail.com>>
                        >> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        >> <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                        >> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 10:29 AM
                        >> Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman
                        >>
                        >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        >> <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "G E Mayers"
                        >> <gerry1952@...>
                        >> wrote:
                        >> >
                        >> > Dear Dave,
                        >> >
                        >> > Jake Pierro published his book on the entire Carman
                        >> > manuscript
                        >> > but from what I understand, there are no maps.
                        >>
                        >> The Carman Ms was to be published w/o maps. Jake Pierro
                        >> published
                        >> his book they way Carman would have published his work.
                        >> >
                        >> > Priest is good for getting an idea about the chaos of the
                        >> > battle
                        >> > etc but in many of his footnotes, the information is not
                        >> > accurate
                        >> > or wrongly cited. The maps in his Before Antietam book are
                        >> > not
                        >> > properly drawn.
                        >>
                        >> I enjoyed the Priest book and think it is one of the more
                        >> readable
                        >> accounts of the battle. His "errors", IMO, are overstated and
                        >> give
                        >> the impression that the work is comprised.
                        >> >
                        >> > If you have the Trailhead Graphics map which has the
                        >> > typographical contours on it, that is a very good map
                        >> > indeed.
                        >> >
                        >>
                        >> Trailhead Graphics are some of the best battlefield maps you
                        >> can
                        >> buy.
                        >>
                        >> >
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                      • Stephen Recker
                        That is exactly the case. Stephen
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 3, 2008
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                          That is exactly the case.

                          Stephen

                          On Friday, October 3, 2008, at 06:19 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                          > Maybe that is because there is not a lot of published material
                          > available on South Mountain. But there is a ton of better stuff
                          > on Antietam....
                          >
                        • Dave
                          Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases, unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle itself? How then does a newbie to
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                            Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases,
                            unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle itself?
                            How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about tracing
                            movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I can get
                            them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like Pfanz for
                            Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle movements?
                            Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the kind of
                            detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's the
                            battle itself that is foggy.

                            That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.

                            Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few weeks?

                            Dave

                            Stephen Recker wrote:
                            >
                            > That is exactly the case.
                            >
                            > Stephen
                            >
                            > On Friday, October 3, 2008, at 06:19 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                            >
                            > > Maybe that is because there is not a lot of published material
                            > > available on South Mountain. But there is a ton of better stuff
                            > > on Antietam....
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                          • Dean Essig
                            I d go with Murfin, but as you don t think it is detailed enough, Camen is _the_ source for detail. Just have some good maps handy, like the downloadable
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                              I'd go with Murfin, but as you don't think it is detailed enough,
                              Camen is _the_ source for detail. Just have some good maps handy,
                              like the downloadable Carmen Cope maps to follow visually.

                              Dean

                              On Oct 4, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Dave wrote:

                              > Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases,
                              > unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle itself?
                              > How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about tracing
                              > movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I can get
                              > them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like Pfanz for
                              > Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle movements?
                              > Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the kind of
                              > detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's the
                              > battle itself that is foggy.
                              >
                              > That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.
                              >
                              > Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few weeks?



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • G E Mayers
                              Dear Dave, For the larger scheme of things, the maps in Murfin are pretty good. The bookstore at the Antietam VC should have a three part series of maps which
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                Dear Dave,

                                For the larger scheme of things, the maps in Murfin are pretty
                                good. The bookstore at the Antietam VC should have a three part
                                series of maps which cover the three main phases of the battle. I
                                have only the maps done for the first phase (i.e. North Woods,
                                East Woods, Cornfield etc).

                                The general NPS brochure, which you can download via the NPS
                                Antietam website, also is good.

                                As to the movement of different brigades etc. I would suggest you
                                consider investing in the TravelBrains Antietam. It is a very
                                good program.

                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
                                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 12:55 PM
                                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                                > Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases,
                                > unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle
                                > itself?
                                > How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about tracing
                                > movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I
                                > can get
                                > them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like
                                > Pfanz for
                                > Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle
                                > movements?
                                > Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the
                                > kind of
                                > detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's
                                > the
                                > battle itself that is foggy.
                                >
                                > That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.
                                >
                                > Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few
                                > weeks?
                                >
                                > Dave
                                >
                                > Stephen Recker wrote:
                                >>
                                >> That is exactly the case.
                                >>
                                >> Stephen
                                >>
                                >> On Friday, October 3, 2008, at 06:19 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                >>
                                >> > Maybe that is because there is not a lot of published
                                >> > material
                                >> > available on South Mountain. But there is a ton of better
                                >> > stuff
                                >> > on Antietam....
                                >> >
                                >>
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                              • G E Mayers
                                Dean, I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where can you find them online to download? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian,
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                  Dean,

                                  I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where
                                  can you find them online to download?

                                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
                                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 12:59 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                                  > I'd go with Murfin, but as you don't think it is detailed
                                  > enough,
                                  > Camen is _the_ source for detail. Just have some good maps
                                  > handy,
                                  > like the downloadable Carmen Cope maps to follow visually.
                                  >
                                  > Dean
                                  >
                                  > On Oct 4, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Dave wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some
                                  >> cases,
                                  >> unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle
                                  >> itself?
                                  >> How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about
                                  >> tracing
                                  >> movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I
                                  >> can get
                                  >> them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like
                                  >> Pfanz for
                                  >> Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle
                                  >> movements?
                                  >> Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the
                                  >> kind of
                                  >> detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's
                                  >> the
                                  >> battle itself that is foggy.
                                  >>
                                  >> That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.
                                  >>
                                  >> Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few
                                  >> weeks?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                • James W. Durney
                                  ... itself? ... get ... for ... weeks? ... I m not sure that what we know is what happened. During combat, few people check details like time or try to
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases,
                                    > unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle
                                    itself?
                                    > How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about tracing
                                    > movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I can
                                    get
                                    > them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like Pfanz
                                    for
                                    > Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle movements?
                                    > Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the kind of
                                    > detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's the
                                    > battle itself that is foggy.
                                    >
                                    > That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.
                                    >
                                    > Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few
                                    weeks?
                                    >
                                    >

                                    I'm not sure that what we "know" is what happened. During combat,
                                    few people check details like time or try to determine where they are
                                    in the woods, fileds or hills. The majority are trying to stay alive
                                    while trying to kill someone. After it is all over, in sime cases
                                    years later, they "remember" these details for histories.

                                    While not Antietam, Oliver Norton's "Attack and Defense of Little
                                    Round Top" is the best example of how history is made that I know of.
                                  • Dean Essig
                                    Sure Gerry... Available right here (make sure that whole ugly thing is one line on your browser): http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                      Sure Gerry...

                                      Available right here (make sure that whole ugly thing is one line on
                                      your browser):

                                      http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
                                      collId=milmap&action=browse&fileName=gmd384m/g3842m/g3842am/
                                      gcw0247000/ct_browse.db&displayType=3&maxCols=3&recNum=0&itemLink=r?
                                      ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+@band(g3842am+gcw0247000))&title2=Atlas+of+the
                                      +battlefield+of+Antietam+%2f+&linkText=Back+to+bibliographic+information

                                      Dean

                                      On Oct 4, 2008, at 7:18 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                                      > I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where
                                      > can you find them online to download?



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • G E Mayers
                                      Dean, It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line. If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need to go, I can search for it myself. Yr.
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                        Dean,

                                        It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line.

                                        If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need to
                                        go, I can search for it myself.

                                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
                                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 10:36 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                                        > Sure Gerry...
                                        >
                                        > Available right here (make sure that whole ugly thing is one
                                        > line on
                                        > your browser):
                                        >
                                        > http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
                                        > collId=milmap&action=browse&fileName=gmd384m/g3842m/g3842am/
                                        > gcw0247000/ct_browse.db&displayType=3&maxCols=3&recNum=0&itemLink=r?
                                        > ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+@band(g3842am+gcw0247000))&title2=Atlas+of+the
                                        > +battlefield+of+Antietam+%2f+&linkText=Back+to+bibliographic+information
                                        >
                                        > Dean
                                        >
                                        > On Oct 4, 2008, at 7:18 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                        >
                                        >> I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where
                                        >> can you find them online to download?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Dean Essig
                                        Follow the link below http://aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=1 And click on the online link in the paragraph headed Campaign Maps . ... [Non-text portions
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                                          Follow the link below

                                          http://aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=1

                                          And click on the "online" link in the paragraph headed "Campaign Maps".


                                          On Oct 4, 2008, at 10:27 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                                          > It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line.
                                          >
                                          > If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need to
                                          > go, I can search for it myself.



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • G E Mayers
                                          Dear Dean, I have the Antietam on the Web website already bookmarked and have used the campaign maps. What I need is the actual Cope Carman maps. The link Dave
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                                            Dear Dean,

                                            I have the Antietam on the Web website already bookmarked and
                                            have used the campaign maps. What I need is the actual Cope
                                            Carman maps. The link Dave gave me will work provided I can copy
                                            the entire URL string.

                                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
                                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 9:01 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                                            > Follow the link below
                                            >
                                            > http://aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=1
                                            >
                                            > And click on the "online" link in the paragraph headed
                                            > "Campaign Maps".
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On Oct 4, 2008, at 10:27 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                            >
                                            >> It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line.
                                            >>
                                            >> If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need
                                            >> to
                                            >> go, I can search for it myself.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Dean Essig
                                            The source links on that page I sent takes you to the actual Carmen- Cope maps. I just sent the AotW address because it had a one word hyperlink you could
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                                              The source links on that page I sent takes you to the actual Carmen-
                                              Cope maps. I just sent the AotW address because it had a one word
                                              hyperlink you could click to get there.

                                              All 14 maps, fully downloadable.

                                              On Oct 5, 2008, at 8:36 AM, G E Mayers wrote:

                                              > I have the Antietam on the Web website already bookmarked and
                                              > have used the campaign maps. What I need is the actual Cope
                                              > Carman maps. The link Dave gave me will work provided I can copy
                                              > the entire URL string.



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Stephen Recker
                                              Funny you should mention this. I just read Tom Desjadin s These Honored Dead: How the Story of Gettysburg Shaped American Memory in which he disputes the
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                                                Funny you should mention this. I just read Tom Desjadin's "These
                                                Honored Dead: How the Story of Gettysburg Shaped American Memory" in
                                                which he disputes the accuracy of Norton's "Attack and Defense" much as
                                                Harsh deconstructs Walker in "Taken at the Flood".

                                                Stephen


                                                On Saturday, October 4, 2008, at 09:26 PM, James W. Durney wrote:

                                                > While not Antietam, Oliver Norton's "Attack and Defense of Little
                                                > Round Top" is the best example of how history is made that I know of.
                                                >
                                              • James W. Durney
                                                However, history is that version. I ve said it many times, I m not sure we know what we think we do. ... in ... much as ... of.
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                                                  However, "history" is that version. I've said it many times, I'm not
                                                  sure we know what we think we do.


                                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Funny you should mention this. I just read Tom Desjadin's "These
                                                  > Honored Dead: How the Story of Gettysburg Shaped American Memory"
                                                  in
                                                  > which he disputes the accuracy of Norton's "Attack and Defense"
                                                  much as
                                                  > Harsh deconstructs Walker in "Taken at the Flood".
                                                  >
                                                  > Stephen
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > On Saturday, October 4, 2008, at 09:26 PM, James W. Durney wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > While not Antietam, Oliver Norton's "Attack and Defense of Little
                                                  > > Round Top" is the best example of how history is made that I know
                                                  of.
                                                  > >
                                                  >
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