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Carman

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  • NJ Rebel
    Tom, Will your work on the Carman manuscript be published and made available to all the students of the battle? Also Tom Shay mentioned something about the
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 14, 2002
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      Tom,

      Will your work on the Carman manuscript be published and made
      available to all the students of the battle?

      Also Tom Shay mentioned something about the rangers Mike and
      Brian B. not being in agreement with the alignment of the Irish
      Brigade as in the Bilby/O'Neill book.

      I do not have the relevant portions of Meagher's report in front
      of me, but if Meagher had his men attack the lane head on, would
      he not have mentioned such rather than forming his brigade into
      left and right wings in the general shape of a V ?

      Your humble servant,
      Gerry Mayers
      Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
      Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

      A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

      "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
      on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
      Edward Lee
    • rotbaron@aol.com
      Gerry, I know we ve tackled this subject before, but I m still not convinced where Meagher s regiments hit the Sunken Road. The Bilby/O Neill book (especially
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 15, 2002
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        Gerry,

        I know we've tackled this subject before, but I'm still not convinced where
        Meagher's regiments hit the Sunken Road.
        The Bilby/O'Neill book (especially their map showing 2 regiments along land
        south of tower) is drastically different from other accounts.
        Considering it was a fairly straight-forward assault, I'm amazed there is
        such a variance of opinion.

        I walked this ground two weeks ago, but am unsure just how much the terrain
        has changed. I did note that the lane south of tower is almost ground-level.
        I don't have copy of Carman maps of this fight.

        Carman text states.....

        The conformation of the ground determined the position of the troops.
        Kimball's right wing was west of Roulette's lane, on a hill sloping south to
        the Sunken Road and east to the lane. Its right, the 14th Indiana, was about
        80 yards from the angle of the Sunken Road in front, its left, the 8th Ohio
        rested on the Roulette lane 105 yards from its mouth. This position gave a
        direct fire to the front upon the right of Rodes Brigade and the 2nd North
        Carolina of Anderson's, and an enfilading fire upon the left of the 14th
        North Carolina, east of the mouth of the lane, from which it suffered
        terribly. Immediately east of the lane the ridge was higher, sloping both
        west and south, and on a grassy knoll 100 yards from the mouth of the lane
        and overlooking it, was the company of the 8th Ohio. From this point the
        crest of the ridge trends southeast, gradually nearing the Sunken Road, and
        on it, to the rear and left of the Ohio company were the 132nd Pennsylvania
        and 7th West Virginia, the left of the latter about 100 yards from the road.

        Some more snips from Carman...

        Meagher was close to the 69th New York on the right of his brigade.. when it
        ascended the ridge its right was 80 yards from the Sunken Road its left much
        nearer, the whole line on the top of the ridge and much exposed. Meagher
        permitted the regiment to fire five or six volleys, when it was ordered to
        stop firing and charge and a like order was sent to the 63rd and 88th New
        York on the left. After an advance of about 30 yards the order to charge was
        counter-manded and the 69th fell back to its first position and resumed
        firing. The left of the line was gradually advanced to within 100 yards of
        the road, the right standing fast.

        Beyond a slight depression in the ridge, which was held by the 29th
        Massachusetts...were drawn up the 63rd and 88th New York. The 63rd was on the
        right and received several deadly volleys without replying, by which it was
        greatly thinned. The charge it was ordered to make by Meagher failed, owing
        to its heavy losses the first few minutes. The men began firing with round
        ball and buckshot, the brigade being armed with smooth bores, and an officer
        states that "it was give and take until ammunition ran out." The nature and
        severity of the contest is graphically and touchingly told in the report of
        Lieutenant Colonel Fowler:

        On the left of the 63rd was the 88th New York. As it came into position it
        received the same deadly fire as had the 63rd, and returned it.

        We have stated that the 29th Massachusetts covered a depression in the ridge
        between the 69th and 63rd New York. It had been under heavy infantry and
        artillery fire in its advance, which it returned, but on reaching its
        position about 100 yards from the road ceased firing for it could not see the
        enemy in the road, nor could the enemy see it, as it was in the depression
        between the higher ground on its right and left and the ridge along the
        Sunken Road completely sheltered it, but it had a good range on the cornfield
        in the rear of the road, which was on higher ground opening wide before it,
        its shots cutting down the green stalks of corn as would a scythe and having
        their effect upon the enemy, who were hiding there or who came up as support
        to those in the road,
        and from these it received a severe fire.

        Tom Shay
      • NJ Rebel
        Tom writes: Beyond a slight depression in the ridge, which was held by the 29th ... 63rd was on the ... which it was ... failed, owing ... with round
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 15, 2002
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          Tom writes:
          <snip>> Beyond a slight depression in the ridge, which was held
          by the 29th
          > Massachusetts...were drawn up the 63rd and 88th New York. The
          63rd was on the
          > right and received several deadly volleys without replying, by
          which it was
          > greatly thinned. The charge it was ordered to make by Meagher
          failed, owing
          > to its heavy losses the first few minutes. The men began firing
          with round
          > ball and buckshot, the brigade being armed with smooth bores,
          and an officer
          > states that "it was give and take until ammunition ran out."<

          I will comment further at a later time on the entire post but I
          wanted to mention something I just learned this weekend about
          smoothbore buck and ball loads and how the load acted when
          discharged from the M1842 Springfield.

          The new Second Sergeant of my reeenacting company recently had
          the opportunity to live fire his M1842 reproduction at a target
          range in a controlled situation. He found the main ball, the .69
          calibre one, went straight and took out the heart area of the
          Union dummy target. The buckshot portion of the buck and ball
          load, fanned out and hit the dummy targets to the left and right
          of the target where the .69 calibre round had hit.

          As to the position of the IB at the Sunken Road, I think you and
          I might have to walk the ground and try to plot the positions as
          you indicated in the entire post.

          It would be interesting to see what documentary evidence the
          rangers can put together to refute the Bilby/O'Neil viewpoint.

          Your humble servant,
          Gerry Mayers
          Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
          Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

          A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

          "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
          on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
          Edward Lee
        • Dave
          I have a few questions: Is it worth getting Carman, even if I have to sell the family dog? I have the Carman maps, the Trailhead and the NPS map. Are there
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 1, 2008
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            I have a few questions:

            Is it worth getting Carman, even if I have to sell the family dog?

            I have the Carman maps, the Trailhead and the NPS map. Are there any
            other maps? Didn't I hear somewhere that someone was going to do a
            "Maps of Antietam" book in the same manner as Gottfried's "Maps of
            Gettysburg"?

            I've heard that Priest was unreliable as a source. Is this true, and in
            which ways? I wasn't very impressed with his Gettysburg work, but I'm
            too ignorant to judge his Antietam or South Moutain books (I have both).

            Did anyone post any pictures of the fording?
          • G E Mayers
            Dear Dave, Jake Pierro published his book on the entire Carman manuscript but from what I understand, there are no maps. Priest is good for getting an idea
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 1, 2008
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              Dear Dave,

              Jake Pierro published his book on the entire Carman manuscript
              but from what I understand, there are no maps.

              Priest is good for getting an idea about the chaos of the battle
              etc but in many of his footnotes, the information is not accurate
              or wrongly cited. The maps in his Before Antietam book are not
              properly drawn.

              If you have the Trailhead Graphics map which has the
              typographical contours on it, that is a very good map indeed.

              If you go to the official NPS website for
              Antietam...www.nps.gov/anti... there are downloadable pdf files
              for some of the trails you can hike at the field. Other trail
              hike guides can be had at the Visitor Center.


              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 4:06 PM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Carman


              >I have a few questions:
              >
              > Is it worth getting Carman, even if I have to sell the family
              > dog?
              >
              > I have the Carman maps, the Trailhead and the NPS map. Are
              > there any
              > other maps? Didn't I hear somewhere that someone was going to
              > do a
              > "Maps of Antietam" book in the same manner as Gottfried's "Maps
              > of
              > Gettysburg"?
              >
              > I've heard that Priest was unreliable as a source. Is this
              > true, and in
              > which ways? I wasn't very impressed with his Gettysburg work,
              > but I'm
              > too ignorant to judge his Antietam or South Moutain books (I
              > have both).
              >
              > Did anyone post any pictures of the fording?
              >
            • James W. Durney
              ... The Carman Ms was to be published w/o maps. Jake Pierro published his book they way Carman would have published his work. ... I enjoyed the Priest book
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 2, 2008
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                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Dear Dave,
                >
                > Jake Pierro published his book on the entire Carman manuscript
                > but from what I understand, there are no maps.

                The Carman Ms was to be published w/o maps. Jake Pierro published
                his book they way Carman would have published his work.
                >
                > Priest is good for getting an idea about the chaos of the battle
                > etc but in many of his footnotes, the information is not accurate
                > or wrongly cited. The maps in his Before Antietam book are not
                > properly drawn.

                I enjoyed the Priest book and think it is one of the more readable
                accounts of the battle. His "errors", IMO, are overstated and give
                the impression that the work is comprised.
                >
                > If you have the Trailhead Graphics map which has the
                > typographical contours on it, that is a very good map indeed.
                >

                Trailhead Graphics are some of the best battlefield maps you can buy.

                >
              • G E Mayers
                James; While Priest s books are readable they do have errors in them. I have knowledge of at least a couple instances in the footnotes where the wrong and
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 2, 2008
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                  James;

                  While Priest's books are readable they do have errors in them. I
                  have knowledge of at least a couple instances in the footnotes
                  where the wrong and totally unrelated source is quoted and also
                  where the information is just simply wrong.

                  The maps in the Before Antietam book are not properly drawn to
                  scale. For the Antietam book, I am sure he could have received
                  permission to use the Carmen/Cope maps rather than having his own
                  made.

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 10:29 AM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Dave,
                  >
                  > Jake Pierro published his book on the entire Carman manuscript
                  > but from what I understand, there are no maps.

                  The Carman Ms was to be published w/o maps. Jake Pierro
                  published
                  his book they way Carman would have published his work.
                  >
                  > Priest is good for getting an idea about the chaos of the
                  > battle
                  > etc but in many of his footnotes, the information is not
                  > accurate
                  > or wrongly cited. The maps in his Before Antietam book are not
                  > properly drawn.

                  I enjoyed the Priest book and think it is one of the more
                  readable
                  accounts of the battle. His "errors", IMO, are overstated and
                  give
                  the impression that the work is comprised.
                  >
                  > If you have the Trailhead Graphics map which has the
                  > typographical contours on it, that is a very good map indeed.
                  >

                  Trailhead Graphics are some of the best battlefield maps you can
                  buy.

                  >
                • James W. Durney
                  ... Gerry, ISTM that all books have errors in them, I ve yet to find someone that isn t upset about something. A few years ago, I looked into the errors in
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 3, 2008
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                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > James;
                    >
                    > While Priest's books are readable they do have errors in them. I
                    > have knowledge of at least a couple instances in the footnotes
                    > where the wrong and totally unrelated source is quoted and also
                    > where the information is just simply wrong.
                    >
                    > The maps in the Before Antietam book are not properly drawn to
                    > scale. For the Antietam book, I am sure he could have received
                    > permission to use the Carmen/Cope maps rather than having his own
                    > made.
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    >

                    Gerry,

                    ISTM that all books have errors in them, I've yet to find someone that
                    isn't upset about something. A few years ago, I looked into the errors
                    in Priest's book on Antietam. I don't recall finding anything that
                    should be classed as major. The worst error is in his South Mt. book
                    and involves a footnote citing Nolan's Iron Brigade book. The Preist
                    books are very readable.

                    IMO, nothing but the Bible should be taken as gospel.
                  • Thomas Clemens
                    Priest insists the famous episode of Longstreet s staff manning the guns of the Washington Artillery happened along the Harpers Ferry Road during the IX Corps
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 3, 2008
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                      Priest insists the famous episode of Longstreet's staff manning the guns of the Washington Artillery happened along the Harpers Ferry Road during the IX Corps attack. Several sources, including the OR's make it clear it was in the edge of the Piper Orchard behind Sunken Road. I call that "major." There are other similar errors.


                      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      Professor of History
                      Hagerstown Community College


                      >>> "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...> 10/03/08 12:21 PM >>>
                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > James;
                      >
                      > While Priest's books are readable they do have errors in them. I
                      > have knowledge of at least a couple instances in the footnotes
                      > where the wrong and totally unrelated source is quoted and also
                      > where the information is just simply wrong.
                      >
                      > The maps in the Before Antietam book are not properly drawn to
                      > scale. For the Antietam book, I am sure he could have received
                      > permission to use the Carmen/Cope maps rather than having his own
                      > made.
                      >
                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      >
                      >

                      Gerry,

                      ISTM that all books have errors in them, I've yet to find someone that
                      isn't upset about something. A few years ago, I looked into the errors
                      in Priest's book on Antietam. I don't recall finding anything that
                      should be classed as major. The worst error is in his South Mt. book
                      and involves a footnote citing Nolan's Iron Brigade book. The Preist
                      books are very readable.

                      IMO, nothing but the Bible should be taken as gospel.
                    • G E Mayers
                      I found some other errors in the Before Antietam book and there are some mis matching footnotes in the Antietam book. That is sloppy editorship at worse and
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 3, 2008
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                        I found some other errors in the Before Antietam book and there
                        are some mis matching footnotes in the Antietam book. That is
                        sloppy editorship at worse and intellectual dishonesty at best.

                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 12:21 PM
                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > James;
                        >
                        > While Priest's books are readable they do have errors in them.
                        > I
                        > have knowledge of at least a couple instances in the footnotes
                        > where the wrong and totally unrelated source is quoted and also
                        > where the information is just simply wrong.
                        >
                        > The maps in the Before Antietam book are not properly drawn to
                        > scale. For the Antietam book, I am sure he could have received
                        > permission to use the Carmen/Cope maps rather than having his
                        > own
                        > made.
                        >
                        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        >
                        >

                        Gerry,

                        ISTM that all books have errors in them, I've yet to find someone
                        that
                        isn't upset about something. A few years ago, I looked into the
                        errors
                        in Priest's book on Antietam. I don't recall finding anything
                        that
                        should be classed as major. The worst error is in his South Mt.
                        book
                        and involves a footnote citing Nolan's Iron Brigade book. The
                        Preist
                        books are very readable.

                        IMO, nothing but the Bible should be taken as gospel.
                      • Dave
                        As an item of interest regarding Priest, I noticed that Stephen Recker doesn t have Soldiers Battle listed among his Antietam books on his guide page. He
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 3, 2008
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                          As an item of interest regarding Priest, I noticed that Stephen Recker
                          doesn't
                          have "Soldiers Battle" listed among his Antietam books on his guide page.
                          He does have Priest's South Mountain book listed.

                          Dave

                          G E Mayers wrote:
                          >
                          > James;
                          >
                          > While Priest's books are readable they do have errors in them. I
                          > have knowledge of at least a couple instances in the footnotes
                          > where the wrong and totally unrelated source is quoted and also
                          > where the information is just simply wrong.
                          >
                          > The maps in the Before Antietam book are not properly drawn to
                          > scale. For the Antietam book, I am sure he could have received
                          > permission to use the Carmen/Cope maps rather than having his own
                          > made.
                          >
                          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                          >
                          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...
                          > <mailto:JWD2044%40hotmail.com>>
                          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                          > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 10:29 AM
                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Dear Dave,
                          > >
                          > > Jake Pierro published his book on the entire Carman manuscript
                          > > but from what I understand, there are no maps.
                          >
                          > The Carman Ms was to be published w/o maps. Jake Pierro
                          > published
                          > his book they way Carman would have published his work.
                          > >
                          > > Priest is good for getting an idea about the chaos of the
                          > > battle
                          > > etc but in many of his footnotes, the information is not
                          > > accurate
                          > > or wrongly cited. The maps in his Before Antietam book are not
                          > > properly drawn.
                          >
                          > I enjoyed the Priest book and think it is one of the more
                          > readable
                          > accounts of the battle. His "errors", IMO, are overstated and
                          > give
                          > the impression that the work is comprised.
                          > >
                          > > If you have the Trailhead Graphics map which has the
                          > > typographical contours on it, that is a very good map indeed.
                          > >
                          >
                          > Trailhead Graphics are some of the best battlefield maps you can
                          > buy.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                        • G E Mayers
                          Maybe that is because there is not a lot of published material available on South Mountain. But there is a ton of better stuff on Antietam.... Yr. Obt. Svt. G
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 3, 2008
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                            Maybe that is because there is not a lot of published material
                            available on South Mountain. But there is a ton of better stuff
                            on Antietam....

                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 5:36 PM
                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                            > As an item of interest regarding Priest, I noticed that Stephen
                            > Recker
                            > doesn't
                            > have "Soldiers Battle" listed among his Antietam books on his
                            > guide page.
                            > He does have Priest's South Mountain book listed.
                            >
                            > Dave
                            >
                            > G E Mayers wrote:
                            >>
                            >> James;
                            >>
                            >> While Priest's books are readable they do have errors in them.
                            >> I
                            >> have knowledge of at least a couple instances in the footnotes
                            >> where the wrong and totally unrelated source is quoted and
                            >> also
                            >> where the information is just simply wrong.
                            >>
                            >> The maps in the Before Antietam book are not properly drawn to
                            >> scale. For the Antietam book, I am sure he could have received
                            >> permission to use the Carmen/Cope maps rather than having his
                            >> own
                            >> made.
                            >>
                            >> Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            >> G E "Gerry" Mayers
                            >>
                            >> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
                            >> even
                            >> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            >> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                            >> from
                            >> the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            >> ----- Original Message -----
                            >> From: "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...
                            >> <mailto:JWD2044%40hotmail.com>>
                            >> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            >> <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                            >> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 10:29 AM
                            >> Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman
                            >>
                            >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            >> <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "G E Mayers"
                            >> <gerry1952@...>
                            >> wrote:
                            >> >
                            >> > Dear Dave,
                            >> >
                            >> > Jake Pierro published his book on the entire Carman
                            >> > manuscript
                            >> > but from what I understand, there are no maps.
                            >>
                            >> The Carman Ms was to be published w/o maps. Jake Pierro
                            >> published
                            >> his book they way Carman would have published his work.
                            >> >
                            >> > Priest is good for getting an idea about the chaos of the
                            >> > battle
                            >> > etc but in many of his footnotes, the information is not
                            >> > accurate
                            >> > or wrongly cited. The maps in his Before Antietam book are
                            >> > not
                            >> > properly drawn.
                            >>
                            >> I enjoyed the Priest book and think it is one of the more
                            >> readable
                            >> accounts of the battle. His "errors", IMO, are overstated and
                            >> give
                            >> the impression that the work is comprised.
                            >> >
                            >> > If you have the Trailhead Graphics map which has the
                            >> > typographical contours on it, that is a very good map
                            >> > indeed.
                            >> >
                            >>
                            >> Trailhead Graphics are some of the best battlefield maps you
                            >> can
                            >> buy.
                            >>
                            >> >
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                          • Stephen Recker
                            That is exactly the case. Stephen
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 3, 2008
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                              That is exactly the case.

                              Stephen

                              On Friday, October 3, 2008, at 06:19 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                              > Maybe that is because there is not a lot of published material
                              > available on South Mountain. But there is a ton of better stuff
                              > on Antietam....
                              >
                            • Dave
                              Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases, unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle itself? How then does a newbie to
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases,
                                unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle itself?
                                How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about tracing
                                movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I can get
                                them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like Pfanz for
                                Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle movements?
                                Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the kind of
                                detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's the
                                battle itself that is foggy.

                                That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.

                                Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few weeks?

                                Dave

                                Stephen Recker wrote:
                                >
                                > That is exactly the case.
                                >
                                > Stephen
                                >
                                > On Friday, October 3, 2008, at 06:19 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                >
                                > > Maybe that is because there is not a lot of published material
                                > > available on South Mountain. But there is a ton of better stuff
                                > > on Antietam....
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                              • Dean Essig
                                I d go with Murfin, but as you don t think it is detailed enough, Camen is _the_ source for detail. Just have some good maps handy, like the downloadable
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                  I'd go with Murfin, but as you don't think it is detailed enough,
                                  Camen is _the_ source for detail. Just have some good maps handy,
                                  like the downloadable Carmen Cope maps to follow visually.

                                  Dean

                                  On Oct 4, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Dave wrote:

                                  > Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases,
                                  > unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle itself?
                                  > How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about tracing
                                  > movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I can get
                                  > them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like Pfanz for
                                  > Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle movements?
                                  > Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the kind of
                                  > detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's the
                                  > battle itself that is foggy.
                                  >
                                  > That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.
                                  >
                                  > Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few weeks?



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • G E Mayers
                                  Dear Dave, For the larger scheme of things, the maps in Murfin are pretty good. The bookstore at the Antietam VC should have a three part series of maps which
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                    Dear Dave,

                                    For the larger scheme of things, the maps in Murfin are pretty
                                    good. The bookstore at the Antietam VC should have a three part
                                    series of maps which cover the three main phases of the battle. I
                                    have only the maps done for the first phase (i.e. North Woods,
                                    East Woods, Cornfield etc).

                                    The general NPS brochure, which you can download via the NPS
                                    Antietam website, also is good.

                                    As to the movement of different brigades etc. I would suggest you
                                    consider investing in the TravelBrains Antietam. It is a very
                                    good program.

                                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
                                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 12:55 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                                    > Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases,
                                    > unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle
                                    > itself?
                                    > How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about tracing
                                    > movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I
                                    > can get
                                    > them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like
                                    > Pfanz for
                                    > Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle
                                    > movements?
                                    > Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the
                                    > kind of
                                    > detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's
                                    > the
                                    > battle itself that is foggy.
                                    >
                                    > That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.
                                    >
                                    > Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few
                                    > weeks?
                                    >
                                    > Dave
                                    >
                                    > Stephen Recker wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >> That is exactly the case.
                                    >>
                                    >> Stephen
                                    >>
                                    >> On Friday, October 3, 2008, at 06:19 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >> > Maybe that is because there is not a lot of published
                                    >> > material
                                    >> > available on South Mountain. But there is a ton of better
                                    >> > stuff
                                    >> > on Antietam....
                                    >> >
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • G E Mayers
                                    Dean, I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where can you find them online to download? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian,
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                      Dean,

                                      I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where
                                      can you find them online to download?

                                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
                                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 12:59 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                                      > I'd go with Murfin, but as you don't think it is detailed
                                      > enough,
                                      > Camen is _the_ source for detail. Just have some good maps
                                      > handy,
                                      > like the downloadable Carmen Cope maps to follow visually.
                                      >
                                      > Dean
                                      >
                                      > On Oct 4, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Dave wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some
                                      >> cases,
                                      >> unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle
                                      >> itself?
                                      >> How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about
                                      >> tracing
                                      >> movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I
                                      >> can get
                                      >> them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like
                                      >> Pfanz for
                                      >> Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle
                                      >> movements?
                                      >> Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the
                                      >> kind of
                                      >> detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's
                                      >> the
                                      >> battle itself that is foggy.
                                      >>
                                      >> That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.
                                      >>
                                      >> Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few
                                      >> weeks?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • James W. Durney
                                      ... itself? ... get ... for ... weeks? ... I m not sure that what we know is what happened. During combat, few people check details like time or try to
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases,
                                        > unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle
                                        itself?
                                        > How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about tracing
                                        > movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I can
                                        get
                                        > them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like Pfanz
                                        for
                                        > Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle movements?
                                        > Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the kind of
                                        > detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's the
                                        > battle itself that is foggy.
                                        >
                                        > That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.
                                        >
                                        > Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few
                                        weeks?
                                        >
                                        >

                                        I'm not sure that what we "know" is what happened. During combat,
                                        few people check details like time or try to determine where they are
                                        in the woods, fileds or hills. The majority are trying to stay alive
                                        while trying to kill someone. After it is all over, in sime cases
                                        years later, they "remember" these details for histories.

                                        While not Antietam, Oliver Norton's "Attack and Defense of Little
                                        Round Top" is the best example of how history is made that I know of.
                                      • Dean Essig
                                        Sure Gerry... Available right here (make sure that whole ugly thing is one line on your browser): http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                          Sure Gerry...

                                          Available right here (make sure that whole ugly thing is one line on
                                          your browser):

                                          http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
                                          collId=milmap&action=browse&fileName=gmd384m/g3842m/g3842am/
                                          gcw0247000/ct_browse.db&displayType=3&maxCols=3&recNum=0&itemLink=r?
                                          ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+@band(g3842am+gcw0247000))&title2=Atlas+of+the
                                          +battlefield+of+Antietam+%2f+&linkText=Back+to+bibliographic+information

                                          Dean

                                          On Oct 4, 2008, at 7:18 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                                          > I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where
                                          > can you find them online to download?



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • G E Mayers
                                          Dean, It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line. If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need to go, I can search for it myself. Yr.
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                            Dean,

                                            It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line.

                                            If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need to
                                            go, I can search for it myself.

                                            Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                            G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
                                            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 10:36 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                                            > Sure Gerry...
                                            >
                                            > Available right here (make sure that whole ugly thing is one
                                            > line on
                                            > your browser):
                                            >
                                            > http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
                                            > collId=milmap&action=browse&fileName=gmd384m/g3842m/g3842am/
                                            > gcw0247000/ct_browse.db&displayType=3&maxCols=3&recNum=0&itemLink=r?
                                            > ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+@band(g3842am+gcw0247000))&title2=Atlas+of+the
                                            > +battlefield+of+Antietam+%2f+&linkText=Back+to+bibliographic+information
                                            >
                                            > Dean
                                            >
                                            > On Oct 4, 2008, at 7:18 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                            >
                                            >> I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where
                                            >> can you find them online to download?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Dean Essig
                                            Follow the link below http://aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=1 And click on the online link in the paragraph headed Campaign Maps . ... [Non-text portions
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                                              Follow the link below

                                              http://aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=1

                                              And click on the "online" link in the paragraph headed "Campaign Maps".


                                              On Oct 4, 2008, at 10:27 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                                              > It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line.
                                              >
                                              > If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need to
                                              > go, I can search for it myself.



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • G E Mayers
                                              Dear Dean, I have the Antietam on the Web website already bookmarked and have used the campaign maps. What I need is the actual Cope Carman maps. The link Dave
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                                                Dear Dean,

                                                I have the Antietam on the Web website already bookmarked and
                                                have used the campaign maps. What I need is the actual Cope
                                                Carman maps. The link Dave gave me will work provided I can copy
                                                the entire URL string.

                                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
                                                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 9:01 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                                                > Follow the link below
                                                >
                                                > http://aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=1
                                                >
                                                > And click on the "online" link in the paragraph headed
                                                > "Campaign Maps".
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > On Oct 4, 2008, at 10:27 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                                >
                                                >> It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line.
                                                >>
                                                >> If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need
                                                >> to
                                                >> go, I can search for it myself.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • Dean Essig
                                                The source links on that page I sent takes you to the actual Carmen- Cope maps. I just sent the AotW address because it had a one word hyperlink you could
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                                                  The source links on that page I sent takes you to the actual Carmen-
                                                  Cope maps. I just sent the AotW address because it had a one word
                                                  hyperlink you could click to get there.

                                                  All 14 maps, fully downloadable.

                                                  On Oct 5, 2008, at 8:36 AM, G E Mayers wrote:

                                                  > I have the Antietam on the Web website already bookmarked and
                                                  > have used the campaign maps. What I need is the actual Cope
                                                  > Carman maps. The link Dave gave me will work provided I can copy
                                                  > the entire URL string.



                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Stephen Recker
                                                  Funny you should mention this. I just read Tom Desjadin s These Honored Dead: How the Story of Gettysburg Shaped American Memory in which he disputes the
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                                                    Funny you should mention this. I just read Tom Desjadin's "These
                                                    Honored Dead: How the Story of Gettysburg Shaped American Memory" in
                                                    which he disputes the accuracy of Norton's "Attack and Defense" much as
                                                    Harsh deconstructs Walker in "Taken at the Flood".

                                                    Stephen


                                                    On Saturday, October 4, 2008, at 09:26 PM, James W. Durney wrote:

                                                    > While not Antietam, Oliver Norton's "Attack and Defense of Little
                                                    > Round Top" is the best example of how history is made that I know of.
                                                    >
                                                  • James W. Durney
                                                    However, history is that version. I ve said it many times, I m not sure we know what we think we do. ... in ... much as ... of.
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                                                      However, "history" is that version. I've said it many times, I'm not
                                                      sure we know what we think we do.


                                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                                                      wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Funny you should mention this. I just read Tom Desjadin's "These
                                                      > Honored Dead: How the Story of Gettysburg Shaped American Memory"
                                                      in
                                                      > which he disputes the accuracy of Norton's "Attack and Defense"
                                                      much as
                                                      > Harsh deconstructs Walker in "Taken at the Flood".
                                                      >
                                                      > Stephen
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > On Saturday, October 4, 2008, at 09:26 PM, James W. Durney wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > > While not Antietam, Oliver Norton's "Attack and Defense of Little
                                                      > > Round Top" is the best example of how history is made that I know
                                                      of.
                                                      > >
                                                      >
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