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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the Maryland Campaign

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  • G E Mayers
    Dear Larry, The way I understand Veteran, Trained, Green is as follows: Veteran = Trained and Engaged in at least one to two campaigns and/or battles; Trained
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 8, 2010
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      Dear Larry,

      The way I understand Veteran, Trained, Green is as follows:

      Veteran = Trained and Engaged in at least one to two campaigns and/or battles;

      Trained = Unit has been through a Camp of Instruction (complete cycle) but has yet to fight a battle or engage in a campaign;

      Green = Barely trained (if at all!) and maybe less than 3 weeks in a Camp of Instruction.

      An excellent example of the "Green" category would be the hapless Sixteenth Connecticut, which was basically obliterated by the veterans of (IIRC) Maxcy Gregg's brigade of A P Hill's Light Division down on the Ninth Corps section of the field, as that Union Corps was advancing into Sharpsburg environs from the SW.

      Crack troops might be, for example, A P Hill's Light Division; the same division could also be Elite troops. No idea what Miers meant by the two.


      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:08 AM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the Maryland Campaign


      >
      >
      > Tom Shay,
      >
      > Sid never replied. Tom Clemens does not know if Dr. Harsh gave Sid the numbers but may have, but the ratings are a product of Sid's for his game.
      >
      > Miers has troop quality as follows: Crack, Elite, Veteran, Trained, and Green. I don't understand the difference between "Crack" and "Elite." I can guess at the other 3. I wonder if Miers explained the differences?
      >
      > Larry
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> Will do.
      >> Larry
      >
      >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
      >> wrote:
      >> >
      >> > Larry,
      >> >
      >> > If you get a reply from Sid, please share it with us.
      >> >
      >> > Tom Shay
      >> >
      >> > ----- Original Message -----
      >> > From: eighth_conn_inf
      >> > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      >> > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:14 PM
      >> > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the
      >> Maryland Campaign
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Thanks, Tom--maybe I'll send an e-mail to ask about his numbers.
      >> >
      >> > Larry
      >> >
      >> > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
      >> > wrote:
      >> > >
      >> > > Larry,
      >> > >
      >> > > Sid Meier is Director of Creative Development for Firaxis.
      >> > > Here is the info: http://www.firaxis.com/company/bios.php?
      >> bioid=56 I enjoyed Sid's Antietam PC game. Admittedly it was excessively
      >> > detailed, but that made playing it a fun experience. I found a website with the free add-on for the South Mountain battles and also enjoyed those. For more detailed simulations, I go with Dean Essig's boardgames (such as Shiloh, Antietam, Seven Days). Certainly they take time to learn, but they reward me with a great historical simulation.
      >> > >
      >> > > Tom Shay
      >
      >
      >
    • Dave
      Larry and Gerry, Could the ratings be used for command radii? Combined with your ratings below, I mean, crack needs no leadership points or the leader has a
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 8, 2010
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        Larry and Gerry,

        Could the ratings be used for command radii? Combined with your ratings
        below, I mean, crack needs no leadership points or the leader has a very
        large radii. Green troops have a very small radii, the commander needs
        to be very close to keep unit cohesion. Just conjecture on my part, it's
        been a long time since playing the game. Also, the guys at Norbsoft,
        makers of Gettysburg, Scourge of War, might be of help, or someone on
        their forum might as well. It's an interesting question.

        Dave McGowan


        On 10/8/2010 2:42 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Thanks Gerry.
        >
        > I'd like to know if/how Sid explained the five categories for his
        > game, especially "crack" v. "elite."
        >
        > I think for my purposes, I would divide experience into four
        > categories something like this:
        >
        > 1. Elite: More than two significant battles on the firing line with
        > excellent results, reflecting good leadership, morale, training, etc.
        > (1st Virginia Cav. or Black Horse)
        >
        > 2. Veteran: At least one battle/fight with good results. (6th Penn.
        > Cavalry at the end of the Peninsular/Seven Days Campaigns)
        >
        > 3. Trained: No/minor combat but in service for a period of time maybe
        > more than 6 months with documented training. (6th U.S. Cavalry early
        > during the Peninsular Campaign--first major fight at Williamsburg on 4
        > May 1862--veteran by the end)
        >
        > 4. Green: New in service--maybe less than 3 months, no combat, no
        > training. (16th Conn. as you suggested)
        >
        > Obviously the combat quality of a unit could change over time such as
        > the 8th and 9th NY Cavalry Regiments which went from almost mutinous
        > gangs to good fighting regiments due in important part to leadership.
        >
        > Larry
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Larry,
        > >
        > > The way I understand Veteran, Trained, Green is as follows:
        > >
        > > Veteran = Trained and Engaged in at least one to two campaigns
        > and/or battles;
        > >
        > > Trained = Unit has been through a Camp of Instruction (complete
        > cycle) but has yet to fight a battle or engage in a campaign;
        > >
        > > Green = Barely trained (if at all!) and maybe less than 3 weeks in a
        > Camp of Instruction.
        > >
        > > An excellent example of the "Green" category would be the hapless
        > Sixteenth Connecticut, which was basically obliterated by the veterans
        > of (IIRC) Maxcy Gregg's brigade of A P Hill's Light Division down on
        > the Ninth Corps section of the field, as that Union Corps was
        > advancing into Sharpsburg environs from the SW.
        > >
        > > Crack troops might be, for example, A P Hill's Light Division; the
        > same division could also be Elite troops. No idea what Miers meant by
        > the two.
        > >
        > >
        > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        > >
        > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
        > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
        > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
        > God. --Anonymous
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
        > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
        > > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:08 AM
        > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the Maryland
        > Campaign
        > >
        > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Tom Shay,
        > > >
        > > > Sid never replied. Tom Clemens does not know if Dr. Harsh gave Sid
        > the numbers but may have, but the ratings are a product of Sid's for
        > his game.
        > > >
        > > > Miers has troop quality as follows: Crack, Elite, Veteran,
        > Trained, and Green. I don't understand the difference between "Crack"
        > and "Elite." I can guess at the other 3. I wonder if Miers explained
        > the differences?
        > > >
        > > > Larry
        > > >
        > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "eighth_conn_inf"
        > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
        > > >>
        > > >> Will do.
        > > >> Larry
        > > >
        > > >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
        > > >> wrote:
        > > >> >
        > > >> > Larry,
        > > >> >
        > > >> > If you get a reply from Sid, please share it with us.
        > > >> >
        > > >> > Tom Shay
        >
        >
      • RoteBaron
        Larry, I looked into the game s help file and found the descriptions of the levels, as follows: There are five levels of experience, each adding a different
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 8, 2010
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          Larry,

          I looked into the game's help file and found the descriptions of the levels, as follows:

          There are five levels of experience, each adding a different number of blocks to the regiment's Morale Bar.
          a.. Green troops (2 blocks) have little or no combat experience.
          b.. Trained troops (3 blocks) have been in limited combat and have been in service for a while.
          c.. Veteran troops (4 blocks) have solid combat experience, some positive and negative.
          d.. Crack troops (5 blocks) have solid combat experience, most of it positive and successful.
          e.. Elite troops (6 blocks) are the best troops in your army and will stand with you to the bitter end.
          Tom Shay



          From: eighth_conn_inf
          Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:08 AM
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the Maryland Campaign





          Tom Shay,

          Sid never replied. Tom Clemens does not know if Dr. Harsh gave Sid the numbers but may have, but the ratings are a product of Sid's for his game.

          Miers has troop quality as follows: Crack, Elite, Veteran, Trained, and Green. I don't understand the difference between "Crack" and "Elite." I can guess at the other 3. I wonder if Miers explained the differences?

          Larry

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
          >
          > Will do.
          > Larry

          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Larry,
          > >
          > > If you get a reply from Sid, please share it with us.
          > >
          > > Tom Shay
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: eighth_conn_inf
          > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:14 PM
          > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the
          > Maryland Campaign
          > >
          > >
          > > Thanks, Tom--maybe I'll send an e-mail to ask about his numbers.
          > >
          > > Larry
          > >
          > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Larry,
          > > >
          > > > Sid Meier is Director of Creative Development for Firaxis.
          > > > Here is the info: http://www.firaxis.com/company/bios.php?
          > bioid=56 I enjoyed Sid's Antietam PC game. Admittedly it was excessively
          > > detailed, but that made playing it a fun experience. I found a website with the free add-on for the South Mountain battles and also enjoyed those. For more detailed simulations, I go with Dean Essig's boardgames (such as Shiloh, Antietam, Seven Days). Certainly they take time to learn, but they reward me with a great historical simulation.
          > > >
          > > > Tom Shay





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Tom, Thank you very much for this info which was what I needed to help judge cavalry units during the Maryland Campaign. For me, there is no substantive
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 9, 2010
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            Tom,

            Thank you very much for this info which was what I needed to help judge cavalry units during the Maryland Campaign. For me, there is no substantive difference between crack and elite.

            Dave's idea about command radaii is also a factor. But from what I've read, often green regiments have green leaders but it is true regardless that green/untested units need close supervision as would even trained units. Elite units IMO still need good commanders but know what to do often without detailed oversight.

            Larry

            Could the ratings be used for command radii? Combined with your ratings
            below, I mean, crack needs no leadership points or the leader has a very
            large radii. Green troops have a very small radii, the commander needs
            to be very close to keep unit cohesion. Just conjecture on my part, it's
            been a long time since playing the game. Also, the guys at Norbsoft,
            makers of Gettysburg, Scourge of War, might be of help, or someone on
            their forum might as well. It's an interesting question.



            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...> wrote:
            >
            > Larry,
            >
            > I looked into the game's help file and found the descriptions of the levels, as follows:
            >
            > There are five levels of experience, each adding a different number of blocks to the regiment's Morale Bar.
            > a.. Green troops (2 blocks) have little or no combat experience.
            > b.. Trained troops (3 blocks) have been in limited combat and have been in service for a while.
            > c.. Veteran troops (4 blocks) have solid combat experience, some positive and negative.
            > d.. Crack troops (5 blocks) have solid combat experience, most of it positive and successful.
            > e.. Elite troops (6 blocks) are the best troops in your army and will stand with you to the bitter end.
            > Tom Shay
            >
            >
            >
            > From: eighth_conn_inf
            > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:08 AM
            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the Maryland Campaign
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Tom Shay,
            >
            > Sid never replied. Tom Clemens does not know if Dr. Harsh gave Sid the numbers but may have, but the ratings are a product of Sid's for his game.
            >
            > Miers has troop quality as follows: Crack, Elite, Veteran, Trained, and Green. I don't understand the difference between "Crack" and "Elite." I can guess at the other 3. I wonder if Miers explained the differences?
            >
            > Larry
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Will do.
            > > Larry
            >
            > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Larry,
            > > >
            > > > If you get a reply from Sid, please share it with us.
            > > >
            > > > Tom Shay
            > > >
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: eighth_conn_inf
            > > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:14 PM
            > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the
            > > Maryland Campaign
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Thanks, Tom--maybe I'll send an e-mail to ask about his numbers.
            > > >
            > > > Larry
            > > >
            > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
            > > > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Larry,
            > > > >
            > > > > Sid Meier is Director of Creative Development for Firaxis.
            > > > > Here is the info: http://www.firaxis.com/company/bios.php?
            > > bioid=56 I enjoyed Sid's Antietam PC game. Admittedly it was excessively
            > > > detailed, but that made playing it a fun experience. I found a website with the free add-on for the South Mountain battles and also enjoyed those. For more detailed simulations, I go with Dean Essig's boardgames (such as Shiloh, Antietam, Seven Days). Certainly they take time to learn, but they reward me with a great historical simulation.
            > > > >
            > > > > Tom Shay
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
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