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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Abandoned artillery limber near Dunker Church in Gardner's photo.

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  • Thomas Clemens
    Scott, I don t remember reading anything about which battery might have lost it in the BB letters, but will let you know if I find anything. Thomas G. Clemens
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 15 8:50 AM
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      Scott, I don't remember reading anything about which battery might have lost it in the BB letters, but will let you know if I find anything.


      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College


      >>> "ScottH" <sdhann@...> 07/15/10 11:01 AM >>>
      Thanks "Gerry." The limber most definitely belonged to one of Stephen D. Lee's batteries, but which one? There's a few possibilities. I've seen recent maps that show how Lee's battalion was arrayed, but I'm not 100% convinced of their accuracy. It's wishful thinking that the limber in question belonged to Rhett's Battery (my ancestor's unit).





      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Scott,
      >
      > To the best of my knowledge, that destroyed limber was in the area where Stephen Dill Lee had posted his artillery battalion, that later became Alexander's, on the morning of September 17th.
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "ScottH" <sdhann@...>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:56 AM
      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Abandoned artillery limber near Dunker Church in Gardner's photo.
      >
      >
      > > Has anyone ever identified which Confederate battery lost the limber in the foreground of the famous Alexander Gardner photo taken on September 19, 1862 with Dunker Church in the background?
      > >
      > > Lieutenant-Colonel P. T. Manning, Chief of Ordinance, Right Wing, reported the following losses at Sharpsburg in his report of October 14, 1862:
      > >
      > > "Lee's Battalion Artillery.-Captain. T. C. Jordan's battery, one 12-pounder howitzer caisson. Captain A. B. Rhett's battery, one 12-pounder howitzer limber. Captain W. W. Parker's battery, rear chests 12-pounder howitzer caisson. Captain G. V. Moody's battery, one forge in Potomac. Captain Pichegru Wooldfolk's Jr.'s battery, one 12-pounder howitzer and limber. Captain Morman's [M. N. Moorman - see his reply] battery, two 10-pounder Parrott guns and rear carriage of caisson. Captain Maurin's [see his reply] battery (Pryor's brigade), one 10-pounder rifle (Parrott) and caisson. One caisson was destroyed by the enemy's shell during the fight."
      > >
      > >
      >
    • RoteBaron
      I only can offer this, which is from Frassanito s ANTIETAM: The Photographic Legacy of America s Bloodiest Day : Stationed during the battle where the
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 16 4:17 PM
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        I only can offer this, which is from Frassanito's "ANTIETAM: The Photographic Legacy of America's Bloodiest Day":

        "Stationed during the battle where the abandoned limber chest stands in the photograph was Capt. W.W. Parker's (Virginia) Battery of Col. S.D. Lee's Artillery Battalion, and it is possible that the limber chest, as well as the eight dead men visible here, belonged to that battery."

        Tom Shay



        From: ScottH
        Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:56 AM
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Abandoned artillery limber near Dunker Church in Gardner's photo.



        Has anyone ever identified which Confederate battery lost the limber in the foreground of the famous Alexander Gardner photo taken on September 19, 1862 with Dunker Church in the background?

        Lieutenant-Colonel P. T. Manning, Chief of Ordinance, Right Wing, reported the following losses at Sharpsburg in his report of October 14, 1862:

        "Lee's Battalion Artillery.-Captain. T. C. Jordan's battery, one 12-pounder howitzer caisson. Captain A. B. Rhett's battery, one 12-pounder howitzer limber. Captain W. W. Parker's battery, rear chests 12-pounder howitzer caisson. Captain G. V. Moody's battery, one forge in Potomac. Captain Pichegru Wooldfolk's Jr.'s battery, one 12-pounder howitzer and limber. Captain Morman's [M. N. Moorman - see his reply] battery, two 10-pounder Parrott guns and rear carriage of caisson. Captain Maurin's [see his reply] battery (Pryor's brigade), one 10-pounder rifle (Parrott) and caisson. One caisson was destroyed by the enemy's shell during the fight."



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • ScottH
        Thanks Tom, Frassanito s book was one of the first places I looked. However, according to Manning s report, Parker s Battery lost rear chests 12-pounder
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 16 5:05 PM
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          Thanks Tom, Frassanito's book was one of the first places I looked. However, according to Manning's report, Parker's Battery lost "rear chests 12-pounder howitzer caisson" which I would NOT take to mean the entire limber which we see in the photo.

          Blue & Gray magazine ran an issue titled "Artillery Hell" which featured maps of the various batteries during the battle. However, I've found discrepancies between those and other maps.

          On the site of the abandoned limber (or near to it) is a government wayside. If I knew precisely how the batteries were arrayed I could possibly narrow down which battery was MOST LIKELY to have lost that limber given their position in line.




          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...> wrote:
          >
          > I only can offer this, which is from Frassanito's "ANTIETAM: The Photographic Legacy of America's Bloodiest Day":
          >
          > "Stationed during the battle where the abandoned limber chest stands in the photograph was Capt. W.W. Parker's (Virginia) Battery of Col. S.D. Lee's Artillery Battalion, and it is possible that the limber chest, as well as the eight dead men visible here, belonged to that battery."
          >
          > Tom Shay
          >
          >
          >
          > From: ScottH
          > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:56 AM
          > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Abandoned artillery limber near Dunker Church in Gardner's photo.
          >
          >
          >
          > Has anyone ever identified which Confederate battery lost the limber in the foreground of the famous Alexander Gardner photo taken on September 19, 1862 with Dunker Church in the background?
          >
          > Lieutenant-Colonel P. T. Manning, Chief of Ordinance, Right Wing, reported the following losses at Sharpsburg in his report of October 14, 1862:
          >
          > "Lee's Battalion Artillery.-Captain. T. C. Jordan's battery, one 12-pounder howitzer caisson. Captain A. B. Rhett's battery, one 12-pounder howitzer limber. Captain W. W. Parker's battery, rear chests 12-pounder howitzer caisson. Captain G. V. Moody's battery, one forge in Potomac. Captain Pichegru Wooldfolk's Jr.'s battery, one 12-pounder howitzer and limber. Captain Morman's [M. N. Moorman - see his reply] battery, two 10-pounder Parrott guns and rear carriage of caisson. Captain Maurin's [see his reply] battery (Pryor's brigade), one 10-pounder rifle (Parrott) and caisson. One caisson was destroyed by the enemy's shell during the fight."
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Thomas Clemens
          Scott, Frasanito is correct that Parker s occupied that spot. Krick the Elder mentions it in his book on Parker s battery, although, sadly, he refers to the
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 19 10:34 AM
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            Scott,
            Frasanito is correct that Parker's occupied that spot. Krick the Elder mentions it in his book on Parker's battery, although, sadly, he refers to the limber as a caisson, and should know better. He probably does by now. There were a number of guns that had trouble withdrawing, and Krick describes that too. One of the men in Parker's battery later claimed to recognize his brother as one of thebodies, but Krick doubts it, and I agree.


            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College


            >>> "ScottH" <sdhann@...> 07/16/10 8:05 PM >>>
            Thanks Tom, Frassanito's book was one of the first places I looked. However, according to Manning's report, Parker's Battery lost "rear chests 12-pounder howitzer caisson" which I would NOT take to mean the entire limber which we see in the photo.

            Blue & Gray magazine ran an issue titled "Artillery Hell" which featured maps of the various batteries during the battle. However, I've found discrepancies between those and other maps.

            On the site of the abandoned limber (or near to it) is a government wayside. If I knew precisely how the batteries were arrayed I could possibly narrow down which battery was MOST LIKELY to have lost that limber given their position in line.




            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...> wrote:
            >
            > I only can offer this, which is from Frassanito's "ANTIETAM: The Photographic Legacy of America's Bloodiest Day":
            >
            > "Stationed during the battle where the abandoned limber chest stands in the photograph was Capt. W.W. Parker's (Virginia) Battery of Col. S.D. Lee's Artillery Battalion, and it is possible that the limber chest, as well as the eight dead men visible here, belonged to that battery."
            >
            > Tom Shay
            >
            >
            >
            > From: ScottH
            > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:56 AM
            > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Abandoned artillery limber near Dunker Church in Gardner's photo.
            >
            >
            >
            > Has anyone ever identified which Confederate battery lost the limber in the foreground of the famous Alexander Gardner photo taken on September 19, 1862 with Dunker Church in the background?
            >
            > Lieutenant-Colonel P. T. Manning, Chief of Ordinance, Right Wing, reported the following losses at Sharpsburg in his report of October 14, 1862:
            >
            > "Lee's Battalion Artillery.-Captain. T. C. Jordan's battery, one 12-pounder howitzer caisson. Captain A. B. Rhett's battery, one 12-pounder howitzer limber. Captain W. W. Parker's battery, rear chests 12-pounder howitzer caisson. Captain G. V. Moody's battery, one forge in Potomac. Captain Pichegru Wooldfolk's Jr.'s battery, one 12-pounder howitzer and limber. Captain Morman's [M. N. Moorman - see his reply] battery, two 10-pounder Parrott guns and rear carriage of caisson. Captain Maurin's [see his reply] battery (Pryor's brigade), one 10-pounder rifle (Parrott) and caisson. One caisson was destroyed by the enemy's shell during the fight."
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • ScottH
            Tom, Thanks much for the information. It s appreciated. Where can I find the most accurate maps of the battle that would detail the positions of the batteries
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 19 4:29 PM
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              Tom,

              Thanks much for the information. It's appreciated.

              Where can I find the most accurate maps of the battle that would detail the positions of the batteries in Lee's Battalion? I'm curious to know which batteries, closest to Parker, reported a limber lost.

              Scott



              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
              >
              > Scott,
              > Frasanito is correct that Parker's occupied that spot. Krick the Elder mentions it in his book on Parker's battery, although, sadly, he refers to the limber as a caisson, and should know better. He probably does by now. There were a number of guns that had trouble withdrawing, and Krick describes that too. One of the men in Parker's battery later claimed to recognize his brother as one of thebodies, but Krick doubts it, and I agree.
              >
              >
              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > Professor of History
              > Hagerstown Community College
              >
              >
              > >>> "ScottH" <sdhann@...> 07/16/10 8:05 PM >>>
              > Thanks Tom, Frassanito's book was one of the first places I looked. However, according to Manning's report, Parker's Battery lost "rear chests 12-pounder howitzer caisson" which I would NOT take to mean the entire limber which we see in the photo.
              >
              > Blue & Gray magazine ran an issue titled "Artillery Hell" which featured maps of the various batteries during the battle. However, I've found discrepancies between those and other maps.
              >
              > On the site of the abandoned limber (or near to it) is a government wayside. If I knew precisely how the batteries were arrayed I could possibly narrow down which battery was MOST LIKELY to have lost that limber given their position in line.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I only can offer this, which is from Frassanito's "ANTIETAM: The Photographic Legacy of America's Bloodiest Day":
              > >
              > > "Stationed during the battle where the abandoned limber chest stands in the photograph was Capt. W.W. Parker's (Virginia) Battery of Col. S.D. Lee's Artillery Battalion, and it is possible that the limber chest, as well as the eight dead men visible here, belonged to that battery."
              > >
              > > Tom Shay
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > From: ScottH
              > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:56 AM
              > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Abandoned artillery limber near Dunker Church in Gardner's photo.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Has anyone ever identified which Confederate battery lost the limber in the foreground of the famous Alexander Gardner photo taken on September 19, 1862 with Dunker Church in the background?
              > >
              > > Lieutenant-Colonel P. T. Manning, Chief of Ordinance, Right Wing, reported the following losses at Sharpsburg in his report of October 14, 1862:
              > >
              > > "Lee's Battalion Artillery.-Captain. T. C. Jordan's battery, one 12-pounder howitzer caisson. Captain A. B. Rhett's battery, one 12-pounder howitzer limber. Captain W. W. Parker's battery, rear chests 12-pounder howitzer caisson. Captain G. V. Moody's battery, one forge in Potomac. Captain Pichegru Wooldfolk's Jr.'s battery, one 12-pounder howitzer and limber. Captain Morman's [M. N. Moorman - see his reply] battery, two 10-pounder Parrott guns and rear carriage of caisson. Captain Maurin's [see his reply] battery (Pryor's brigade), one 10-pounder rifle (Parrott) and caisson. One caisson was destroyed by the enemy's shell during the fight."
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
            • Thomas Clemens
              Scott, I don t think you ll find out. Carman s map only shows the battalion, or at least part of it, but not individual batteries. We know Woolfolk was on
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 19 6:33 PM
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                Scott,
                I don't think you'll find out. Carman's map only shows the battalion, or at least part of it, but not individual batteries. We know Woolfolk was on the right, making Parker next, or perhaps third from the right. Only Lee wrote a report, did not mention specific batteries losing a limber, but does say Wolfolk left a gun on the field due to lose of horses, drivers, etc. he doesn't say it, but perhaps also a limber to move it????

                >>> "ScottH" <sdhann@...> 07/19/10 7:29 PM >>>
                Tom,

                Thanks much for the information. It's appreciated.

                Where can I find the most accurate maps of the battle that would detail the positions of the batteries in Lee's Battalion? I'm curious to know which batteries, closest to Parker, reported a limber lost.

                Scott



                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                >
                > Scott,
                > Frasanito is correct that Parker's occupied that spot. Krick the Elder mentions it in his book on Parker's battery, although, sadly, he refers to the limber as a caisson, and should know better. He probably does by now. There were a number of guns that had trouble withdrawing, and Krick describes that too. One of the men in Parker's battery later claimed to recognize his brother as one of thebodies, but Krick doubts it, and I agree.
                >
                >
                > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > Professor of History
                > Hagerstown Community College
                >
                >
                > >>> "ScottH" <sdhann@...> 07/16/10 8:05 PM >>>
                > Thanks Tom, Frassanito's book was one of the first places I looked. However, according to Manning's report, Parker's Battery lost "rear chests 12-pounder howitzer caisson" which I would NOT take to mean the entire limber which we see in the photo.
                >
                > Blue & Gray magazine ran an issue titled "Artillery Hell" which featured maps of the various batteries during the battle. However, I've found discrepancies between those and other maps.
                >
                > On the site of the abandoned limber (or near to it) is a government wayside. If I knew precisely how the batteries were arrayed I could possibly narrow down which battery was MOST LIKELY to have lost that limber given their position in line.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I only can offer this, which is from Frassanito's "ANTIETAM: The Photographic Legacy of America's Bloodiest Day":
                > >
                > > "Stationed during the battle where the abandoned limber chest stands in the photograph was Capt. W.W. Parker's (Virginia) Battery of Col. S.D. Lee's Artillery Battalion, and it is possible that the limber chest, as well as the eight dead men visible here, belonged to that battery."
                > >
                > > Tom Shay
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > From: ScottH
                > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:56 AM
                > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Abandoned artillery limber near Dunker Church in Gardner's photo.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Has anyone ever identified which Confederate battery lost the limber in the foreground of the famous Alexander Gardner photo taken on September 19, 1862 with Dunker Church in the background?
                > >
                > > Lieutenant-Colonel P. T. Manning, Chief of Ordinance, Right Wing, reported the following losses at Sharpsburg in his report of October 14, 1862:
                > >
                > > "Lee's Battalion Artillery.-Captain. T. C. Jordan's battery, one 12-pounder howitzer caisson. Captain A. B. Rhett's battery, one 12-pounder howitzer limber. Captain W. W. Parker's battery, rear chests 12-pounder howitzer caisson. Captain G. V. Moody's battery, one forge in Potomac. Captain Pichegru Wooldfolk's Jr.'s battery, one 12-pounder howitzer and limber. Captain Morman's [M. N. Moorman - see his reply] battery, two 10-pounder Parrott guns and rear carriage of caisson. Captain Maurin's [see his reply] battery (Pryor's brigade), one 10-pounder rifle (Parrott) and caisson. One caisson was destroyed by the enemy's shell during the fight."
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
              • G E Mayers
                Dear Scott, You can try the website for Antietam on the Web or the Library of Congress holdings of the Cope-Carman maps. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 19 8:43 PM
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                  Dear Scott,

                  You can try the website for Antietam on the Web or the Library of Congress holdings of the Cope-Carman maps.

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "ScottH" <sdhann@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 7:29 PM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Abandoned artillery limber near Dunker Church in Gardner's photo.


                  > Tom,
                  >
                  > Thanks much for the information. It's appreciated.
                  >
                  > Where can I find the most accurate maps of the battle that would detail the positions of the batteries in Lee's Battalion? I'm curious to know which batteries, closest to Parker, reported a limber lost.
                  >
                  > Scott
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> Scott,
                  >> Frasanito is correct that Parker's occupied that spot. Krick the Elder mentions it in his book on Parker's battery, although, sadly, he refers to the limber as a caisson, and should know better. He probably does by now. There were a number of guns that had trouble withdrawing, and Krick describes that too. One of the men in Parker's battery later claimed to recognize his brother as one of thebodies, but Krick doubts it, and I agree.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  >> Professor of History
                  >> Hagerstown Community College
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> >>> "ScottH" <sdhann@...> 07/16/10 8:05 PM >>>
                  >> Thanks Tom, Frassanito's book was one of the first places I looked. However, according to Manning's report, Parker's Battery lost "rear chests 12-pounder howitzer caisson" which I would NOT take to mean the entire limber which we see in the photo.
                  >>
                  >> Blue & Gray magazine ran an issue titled "Artillery Hell" which featured maps of the various batteries during the battle. However, I've found discrepancies between those and other maps.
                  >>
                  >> On the site of the abandoned limber (or near to it) is a government wayside. If I knew precisely how the batteries were arrayed I could possibly narrow down which battery was MOST LIKELY to have lost that limber given their position in line.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@> wrote:
                  >> >
                  >> > I only can offer this, which is from Frassanito's "ANTIETAM: The Photographic Legacy of America's Bloodiest Day":
                  >> >
                  >> > "Stationed during the battle where the abandoned limber chest stands in the photograph was Capt. W.W. Parker's (Virginia) Battery of Col. S.D. Lee's Artillery Battalion, and it is possible that the limber chest, as well as the eight dead men visible here, belonged to that battery."
                  >> >
                  >> > Tom Shay
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > From: ScottH
                  >> > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:56 AM
                  >> > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  >> > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Abandoned artillery limber near Dunker Church in Gardner's photo.
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > Has anyone ever identified which Confederate battery lost the limber in the foreground of the famous Alexander Gardner photo taken on September 19, 1862 with Dunker Church in the background?
                  >> >
                  >> > Lieutenant-Colonel P. T. Manning, Chief of Ordinance, Right Wing, reported the following losses at Sharpsburg in his report of October 14, 1862:
                  >> >
                  >> > "Lee's Battalion Artillery.-Captain. T. C. Jordan's battery, one 12-pounder howitzer caisson. Captain A. B. Rhett's battery, one 12-pounder howitzer limber. Captain W. W. Parker's battery, rear chests 12-pounder howitzer caisson. Captain G. V. Moody's battery, one forge in Potomac. Captain Pichegru Wooldfolk's Jr.'s battery, one 12-pounder howitzer and limber. Captain Morman's [M. N. Moorman - see his reply] battery, two 10-pounder Parrott guns and rear carriage of caisson. Captain Maurin's [see his reply] battery (Pryor's brigade), one 10-pounder rifle (Parrott) and caisson. One caisson was destroyed by the enemy's shell during the fight."
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
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