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Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War? Addendum

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  • Thomas Clemens
    Sure, send me your mailing address. It won t be until I get back to the office again. At this rate, maybe March? Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 11, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Sure, send me your mailing address. It won't be until I get back to the office again. At this rate, maybe March?

      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College


      >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 02/11/10 12:57 PM >>>
      Dear Tom,

      I asked my wife about the fax number for her work etc. She said it is not exactly a good idea. Can you drop the information in the mail to me if I give you my snail address? Or, if you still have it, can you simply mail me the info?

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:34 AM
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War? Addendum


      I have a print out from our library with the MLA format for citing all kinds of stuff. Give me a fax # and I can send you a copy.

      Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College




      >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/28/2010 9:24 AM >>>

      Ok.

      BTW did you ever find the sources you mentioned to me the other
      week on proper citations for books or other media found on the
      Internet?

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:21 AM
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
      Addendum

      No, I don't have time for the inevitable argument that would
      ensue.

      Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College

      >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:48 PM >>>

      Tom,

      Thanks for the link to the footnotes.

      You might want to contact the author directly via his email link
      at the end of his piece.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:45 PM
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
      Addendum

      Gerry,
      Go to the bottom and click on the button for the end notes. It
      confused me at first.

      Echoing Gerry, Ryan ignores a number of things that trouble me.
      No mention of the Lee-Davis communications, where states his
      intentions of going to Hagerstown and beyond, not getting into
      the Shenandoah, which he could have easily done from Manassas if
      he'd wanted to. He states that assumption several times, never
      footnoting it. He has some troops out of position time-wise,
      Like Lee & Longstreet in Boonsboro on Sept. 10. NO. Wagons
      leaving Hagerstown for Williamsport on the 13th. NO.
      He also has Lee planning to fight at Sharpsburg based on a map
      in Frederick, so how did he know the terrain in Sharpsburg was
      suitable? What contour map did he looked at? And if it was his
      intention to draw McClellan away from Crampton's and to Turner's
      Gap, why was Turner's held in such small force? If Stuart is
      part of this conspiracy why did he leave Turner's For Crampton's
      Gap? Should not he have "known" where the attack would come? In
      fact, why did Lee go to Hagerstown at all? Why not lay in wait
      to spring the trap? He also suggests Lee knew McClellan was in
      command when he wrote S.O. 191, which is not footnoted, nor
      proven. Joe Harsh had serious doubts, and so do I. The paper and
      handwriting analysis is interesting, but not probative of
      anything. And I wonder if there is universal acceptance of this
      idea that everybody is a competent handwriting analyst.

      Oh, and I have a letter to Carman from Marshall stating that Lee
      did not know 191 had been found until he read McClellan's report
      months later. He also said if they'd know how close McClellan
      was Lee would have left a larger force to guard Turner's Gap. It
      sounds to me like Marshall is faintly criticizing the "Beau
      Sabuer" for lack of intelligence gathering.

      Nice argument counselor, but do you really expect us to convict
      anybody on this evidence?

      Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College

      >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:26 PM >>>

      Tom,

      It bothers me very much that the article is there but not the
      sourcing for the numerous footnotes.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <RoteBaron@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:21 PM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?

      >
      >
      > Joseph Ryan has posted an interesting article online entitled
      > "Special Order 191: Ruse of War?"
      >
      >
      >
      > You can find it at the MHO website
      > http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/
      >
      >
      >
      > His premise is that Lee intentionally planted SO 191 for
      > Federals to find.
      >
      >
      >
      > He states that Lee "had tricked McClellan into thinking,
      > throwing his main weight against Crampton's Gap would expose
      > him to an attack from Lee's main body at Turner's Gap, and now
      > Lee had a good chance to draw McClellan into battle at
      > Sharpsburg."
      >
      >
      >
      > He does raise some interesting points, such as why the found
      > copy is in good shape, when it likely laid in the filed during
      > the all-day storm of Sept 11th.
      >
      >
      >
      > Also, why didn't Lee ever investigate the matter of how the
      > copy got lost.
      >
      >
      >
      > Read the article and let me know your thoughts!
      >
      > Tom Shay
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • G E Mayers
      Dear Tom, I will send it to your home email address. Thanks! I think you probably will be able to send it to me by snail before March. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 12, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Tom,

        I will send it to your home email address. Thanks!

        I think you probably will be able to send it to me by snail before March.

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:48 PM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War? Addendum


        > Sure, send me your mailing address. It won't be until I get back to the office again. At this rate, maybe March?
        >
        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > Professor of History
        > Hagerstown Community College
        >
        >
        >>>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 02/11/10 12:57 PM >>>
        > Dear Tom,
        >
        > I asked my wife about the fax number for her work etc. She said it is not exactly a good idea. Can you drop the information in the mail to me if I give you my snail address? Or, if you still have it, can you simply mail me the info?
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:34 AM
        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War? Addendum
        >
        >
        > I have a print out from our library with the MLA format for citing all kinds of stuff. Give me a fax # and I can send you a copy.
        >
        > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
        > Professor of History
        > Hagerstown Community College
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >>>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/28/2010 9:24 AM >>>
        >
        > Ok.
        >
        > BTW did you ever find the sources you mentioned to me the other
        > week on proper citations for books or other media found on the
        > Internet?
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:21 AM
        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
        > Addendum
        >
        > No, I don't have time for the inevitable argument that would
        > ensue.
        >
        > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
        > Professor of History
        > Hagerstown Community College
        >
        >>>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:48 PM >>>
        >
        > Tom,
        >
        > Thanks for the link to the footnotes.
        >
        > You might want to contact the author directly via his email link
        > at the end of his piece.
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:45 PM
        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
        > Addendum
        >
        > Gerry,
        > Go to the bottom and click on the button for the end notes. It
        > confused me at first.
        >
        > Echoing Gerry, Ryan ignores a number of things that trouble me.
        > No mention of the Lee-Davis communications, where states his
        > intentions of going to Hagerstown and beyond, not getting into
        > the Shenandoah, which he could have easily done from Manassas if
        > he'd wanted to. He states that assumption several times, never
        > footnoting it. He has some troops out of position time-wise,
        > Like Lee & Longstreet in Boonsboro on Sept. 10. NO. Wagons
        > leaving Hagerstown for Williamsport on the 13th. NO.
        > He also has Lee planning to fight at Sharpsburg based on a map
        > in Frederick, so how did he know the terrain in Sharpsburg was
        > suitable? What contour map did he looked at? And if it was his
        > intention to draw McClellan away from Crampton's and to Turner's
        > Gap, why was Turner's held in such small force? If Stuart is
        > part of this conspiracy why did he leave Turner's For Crampton's
        > Gap? Should not he have "known" where the attack would come? In
        > fact, why did Lee go to Hagerstown at all? Why not lay in wait
        > to spring the trap? He also suggests Lee knew McClellan was in
        > command when he wrote S.O. 191, which is not footnoted, nor
        > proven. Joe Harsh had serious doubts, and so do I. The paper and
        > handwriting analysis is interesting, but not probative of
        > anything. And I wonder if there is universal acceptance of this
        > idea that everybody is a competent handwriting analyst.
        >
        > Oh, and I have a letter to Carman from Marshall stating that Lee
        > did not know 191 had been found until he read McClellan's report
        > months later. He also said if they'd know how close McClellan
        > was Lee would have left a larger force to guard Turner's Gap. It
        > sounds to me like Marshall is faintly criticizing the "Beau
        > Sabuer" for lack of intelligence gathering.
        >
        > Nice argument counselor, but do you really expect us to convict
        > anybody on this evidence?
        >
        > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
        > Professor of History
        > Hagerstown Community College
        >
        >>>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:26 PM >>>
        >
        > Tom,
        >
        > It bothers me very much that the article is there but not the
        > sourcing for the numerous footnotes.
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: <RoteBaron@...>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:21 PM
        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
        >
        >>
        >>
        >> Joseph Ryan has posted an interesting article online entitled
        >> "Special Order 191: Ruse of War?"
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> You can find it at the MHO website
        >> http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> His premise is that Lee intentionally planted SO 191 for
        >> Federals to find.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> He states that Lee "had tricked McClellan into thinking,
        >> throwing his main weight against Crampton's Gap would expose
        >> him to an attack from Lee's main body at Turner's Gap, and now
        >> Lee had a good chance to draw McClellan into battle at
        >> Sharpsburg."
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> He does raise some interesting points, such as why the found
        >> copy is in good shape, when it likely laid in the filed during
        >> the all-day storm of Sept 11th.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Also, why didn't Lee ever investigate the matter of how the
        >> copy got lost.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Read the article and let me know your thoughts!
        >>
        >> Tom Shay
        >>
        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
        >>
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
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