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Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War? Addendum

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  • G E Mayers
    Tom, Thanks for the link to the footnotes. You might want to contact the author directly via his email link at the end of his piece. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 27, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Tom,

      Thanks for the link to the footnotes.

      You might want to contact the author directly via his email link
      at the end of his piece.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:45 PM
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
      Addendum


      Gerry,
      Go to the bottom and click on the button for the end notes. It
      confused me at first.

      Echoing Gerry, Ryan ignores a number of things that trouble me.
      No mention of the Lee-Davis communications, where states his
      intentions of going to Hagerstown and beyond, not getting into
      the Shenandoah, which he could have easily done from Manassas if
      he'd wanted to. He states that assumption several times, never
      footnoting it. He has some troops out of position time-wise,
      Like Lee & Longstreet in Boonsboro on Sept. 10. NO. Wagons
      leaving Hagerstown for Williamsport on the 13th. NO.
      He also has Lee planning to fight at Sharpsburg based on a map
      in Frederick, so how did he know the terrain in Sharpsburg was
      suitable? What contour map did he looked at? And if it was his
      intention to draw McClellan away from Crampton's and to Turner's
      Gap, why was Turner's held in such small force? If Stuart is
      part of this conspiracy why did he leave Turner's For Crampton's
      Gap? Should not he have "known" where the attack would come? In
      fact, why did Lee go to Hagerstown at all? Why not lay in wait
      to spring the trap? He also suggests Lee knew McClellan was in
      command when he wrote S.O. 191, which is not footnoted, nor
      proven. Joe Harsh had serious doubts, and so do I. The paper and
      handwriting analysis is interesting, but not probative of
      anything. And I wonder if there is universal acceptance of this
      idea that everybody is a competent handwriting analyst.

      Oh, and I have a letter to Carman from Marshall stating that Lee
      did not know 191 had been found until he read McClellan's report
      months later. He also said if they'd know how close McClellan
      was Lee would have left a larger force to guard Turner's Gap. It
      sounds to me like Marshall is faintly criticizing the "Beau
      Sabuer" for lack of intelligence gathering.

      Nice argument counselor, but do you really expect us to convict
      anybody on this evidence?


      Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College



      >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:26 PM >>>

      Tom,

      It bothers me very much that the article is there but not the
      sourcing for the numerous footnotes.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <RoteBaron@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:21 PM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?

      >
      >
      > Joseph Ryan has posted an interesting article online entitled
      > "Special Order 191: Ruse of War?"
      >
      >
      >
      > You can find it at the MHO website
      > http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/
      >
      >
      >
      > His premise is that Lee intentionally planted SO 191 for
      > Federals to find.
      >
      >
      >
      > He states that Lee "had tricked McClellan into thinking,
      > throwing his main weight against Crampton's Gap would expose
      > him to an attack from Lee's main body at Turner's Gap, and now
      > Lee had a good chance to draw McClellan into battle at
      > Sharpsburg."
      >
      >
      >
      > He does raise some interesting points, such as why the found
      > copy is in good shape, when it likely laid in the filed during
      > the all-day storm of Sept 11th.
      >
      >
      >
      > Also, why didn't Lee ever investigate the matter of how the
      > copy got lost.
      >
      >
      >
      > Read the article and let me know your thoughts!
      >
      > Tom Shay
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • RoteBaron
      My thanks to the group for their opinions regarding the SO 191 ruse theory. I was puzzled by many of the author s points and am glad others seemed as
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 27, 2010
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        My thanks to the group for their opinions regarding the SO 191 "ruse" theory.
        I was puzzled by many of the author's points and am glad others seemed as disturbed with them.

        Tom Shay








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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Thomas Clemens
        No, I don t have time for the inevitable argument that would ensue. Dr. Thomas G. Clemens Professor of History Hagerstown Community College ... Tom, Thanks for
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 28, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          No, I don't have time for the inevitable argument that would ensue.

          Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College




          >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:48 PM >>>

          Tom,

          Thanks for the link to the footnotes.

          You might want to contact the author directly via his email link
          at the end of his piece.

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:45 PM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
          Addendum

          Gerry,
          Go to the bottom and click on the button for the end notes. It
          confused me at first.

          Echoing Gerry, Ryan ignores a number of things that trouble me.
          No mention of the Lee-Davis communications, where states his
          intentions of going to Hagerstown and beyond, not getting into
          the Shenandoah, which he could have easily done from Manassas if
          he'd wanted to. He states that assumption several times, never
          footnoting it. He has some troops out of position time-wise,
          Like Lee & Longstreet in Boonsboro on Sept. 10. NO. Wagons
          leaving Hagerstown for Williamsport on the 13th. NO.
          He also has Lee planning to fight at Sharpsburg based on a map
          in Frederick, so how did he know the terrain in Sharpsburg was
          suitable? What contour map did he looked at? And if it was his
          intention to draw McClellan away from Crampton's and to Turner's
          Gap, why was Turner's held in such small force? If Stuart is
          part of this conspiracy why did he leave Turner's For Crampton's
          Gap? Should not he have "known" where the attack would come? In
          fact, why did Lee go to Hagerstown at all? Why not lay in wait
          to spring the trap? He also suggests Lee knew McClellan was in
          command when he wrote S.O. 191, which is not footnoted, nor
          proven. Joe Harsh had serious doubts, and so do I. The paper and
          handwriting analysis is interesting, but not probative of
          anything. And I wonder if there is universal acceptance of this
          idea that everybody is a competent handwriting analyst.

          Oh, and I have a letter to Carman from Marshall stating that Lee
          did not know 191 had been found until he read McClellan's report
          months later. He also said if they'd know how close McClellan
          was Lee would have left a larger force to guard Turner's Gap. It
          sounds to me like Marshall is faintly criticizing the "Beau
          Sabuer" for lack of intelligence gathering.

          Nice argument counselor, but do you really expect us to convict
          anybody on this evidence?

          Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College

          >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:26 PM >>>

          Tom,

          It bothers me very much that the article is there but not the
          sourcing for the numerous footnotes.

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <RoteBaron@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:21 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?

          >
          >
          > Joseph Ryan has posted an interesting article online entitled
          > "Special Order 191: Ruse of War?"
          >
          >
          >
          > You can find it at the MHO website
          > http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/
          >
          >
          >
          > His premise is that Lee intentionally planted SO 191 for
          > Federals to find.
          >
          >
          >
          > He states that Lee "had tricked McClellan into thinking,
          > throwing his main weight against Crampton's Gap would expose
          > him to an attack from Lee's main body at Turner's Gap, and now
          > Lee had a good chance to draw McClellan into battle at
          > Sharpsburg."
          >
          >
          >
          > He does raise some interesting points, such as why the found
          > copy is in good shape, when it likely laid in the filed during
          > the all-day storm of Sept 11th.
          >
          >
          >
          > Also, why didn't Lee ever investigate the matter of how the
          > copy got lost.
          >
          >
          >
          > Read the article and let me know your thoughts!
          >
          > Tom Shay
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • G E Mayers
          Ok. BTW did you ever find the sources you mentioned to me the other week on proper citations for books or other media found on the Internet? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 28, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Ok.

            BTW did you ever find the sources you mentioned to me the other
            week on proper citations for books or other media found on the
            Internet?

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:21 AM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
            Addendum


            No, I don't have time for the inevitable argument that would
            ensue.

            Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College




            >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:48 PM >>>

            Tom,

            Thanks for the link to the footnotes.

            You might want to contact the author directly via his email link
            at the end of his piece.

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:45 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
            Addendum

            Gerry,
            Go to the bottom and click on the button for the end notes. It
            confused me at first.

            Echoing Gerry, Ryan ignores a number of things that trouble me.
            No mention of the Lee-Davis communications, where states his
            intentions of going to Hagerstown and beyond, not getting into
            the Shenandoah, which he could have easily done from Manassas if
            he'd wanted to. He states that assumption several times, never
            footnoting it. He has some troops out of position time-wise,
            Like Lee & Longstreet in Boonsboro on Sept. 10. NO. Wagons
            leaving Hagerstown for Williamsport on the 13th. NO.
            He also has Lee planning to fight at Sharpsburg based on a map
            in Frederick, so how did he know the terrain in Sharpsburg was
            suitable? What contour map did he looked at? And if it was his
            intention to draw McClellan away from Crampton's and to Turner's
            Gap, why was Turner's held in such small force? If Stuart is
            part of this conspiracy why did he leave Turner's For Crampton's
            Gap? Should not he have "known" where the attack would come? In
            fact, why did Lee go to Hagerstown at all? Why not lay in wait
            to spring the trap? He also suggests Lee knew McClellan was in
            command when he wrote S.O. 191, which is not footnoted, nor
            proven. Joe Harsh had serious doubts, and so do I. The paper and
            handwriting analysis is interesting, but not probative of
            anything. And I wonder if there is universal acceptance of this
            idea that everybody is a competent handwriting analyst.

            Oh, and I have a letter to Carman from Marshall stating that Lee
            did not know 191 had been found until he read McClellan's report
            months later. He also said if they'd know how close McClellan
            was Lee would have left a larger force to guard Turner's Gap. It
            sounds to me like Marshall is faintly criticizing the "Beau
            Sabuer" for lack of intelligence gathering.

            Nice argument counselor, but do you really expect us to convict
            anybody on this evidence?

            Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College

            >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:26 PM >>>

            Tom,

            It bothers me very much that the article is there but not the
            sourcing for the numerous footnotes.

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <RoteBaron@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:21 PM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?

            >
            >
            > Joseph Ryan has posted an interesting article online entitled
            > "Special Order 191: Ruse of War?"
            >
            >
            >
            > You can find it at the MHO website
            > http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/
            >
            >
            >
            > His premise is that Lee intentionally planted SO 191 for
            > Federals to find.
            >
            >
            >
            > He states that Lee "had tricked McClellan into thinking,
            > throwing his main weight against Crampton's Gap would expose
            > him to an attack from Lee's main body at Turner's Gap, and now
            > Lee had a good chance to draw McClellan into battle at
            > Sharpsburg."
            >
            >
            >
            > He does raise some interesting points, such as why the found
            > copy is in good shape, when it likely laid in the filed during
            > the all-day storm of Sept 11th.
            >
            >
            >
            > Also, why didn't Lee ever investigate the matter of how the
            > copy got lost.
            >
            >
            >
            > Read the article and let me know your thoughts!
            >
            > Tom Shay
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Thomas Clemens
            I have a print out from our library with the MLA format for citing all kinds of stuff. Give me a fax # and I can send you a copy. Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 28, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              I have a print out from our library with the MLA format for citing all kinds of stuff. Give me a fax # and I can send you a copy.

              Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
              Professor of History
              Hagerstown Community College




              >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/28/2010 9:24 AM >>>

              Ok.

              BTW did you ever find the sources you mentioned to me the other
              week on proper citations for books or other media found on the
              Internet?

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:21 AM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
              Addendum

              No, I don't have time for the inevitable argument that would
              ensue.

              Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
              Professor of History
              Hagerstown Community College

              >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:48 PM >>>

              Tom,

              Thanks for the link to the footnotes.

              You might want to contact the author directly via his email link
              at the end of his piece.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:45 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
              Addendum

              Gerry,
              Go to the bottom and click on the button for the end notes. It
              confused me at first.

              Echoing Gerry, Ryan ignores a number of things that trouble me.
              No mention of the Lee-Davis communications, where states his
              intentions of going to Hagerstown and beyond, not getting into
              the Shenandoah, which he could have easily done from Manassas if
              he'd wanted to. He states that assumption several times, never
              footnoting it. He has some troops out of position time-wise,
              Like Lee & Longstreet in Boonsboro on Sept. 10. NO. Wagons
              leaving Hagerstown for Williamsport on the 13th. NO.
              He also has Lee planning to fight at Sharpsburg based on a map
              in Frederick, so how did he know the terrain in Sharpsburg was
              suitable? What contour map did he looked at? And if it was his
              intention to draw McClellan away from Crampton's and to Turner's
              Gap, why was Turner's held in such small force? If Stuart is
              part of this conspiracy why did he leave Turner's For Crampton's
              Gap? Should not he have "known" where the attack would come? In
              fact, why did Lee go to Hagerstown at all? Why not lay in wait
              to spring the trap? He also suggests Lee knew McClellan was in
              command when he wrote S.O. 191, which is not footnoted, nor
              proven. Joe Harsh had serious doubts, and so do I. The paper and
              handwriting analysis is interesting, but not probative of
              anything. And I wonder if there is universal acceptance of this
              idea that everybody is a competent handwriting analyst.

              Oh, and I have a letter to Carman from Marshall stating that Lee
              did not know 191 had been found until he read McClellan's report
              months later. He also said if they'd know how close McClellan
              was Lee would have left a larger force to guard Turner's Gap. It
              sounds to me like Marshall is faintly criticizing the "Beau
              Sabuer" for lack of intelligence gathering.

              Nice argument counselor, but do you really expect us to convict
              anybody on this evidence?

              Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
              Professor of History
              Hagerstown Community College

              >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:26 PM >>>

              Tom,

              It bothers me very much that the article is there but not the
              sourcing for the numerous footnotes.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <RoteBaron@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:21 PM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?

              >
              >
              > Joseph Ryan has posted an interesting article online entitled
              > "Special Order 191: Ruse of War?"
              >
              >
              >
              > You can find it at the MHO website
              > http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/
              >
              >
              >
              > His premise is that Lee intentionally planted SO 191 for
              > Federals to find.
              >
              >
              >
              > He states that Lee "had tricked McClellan into thinking,
              > throwing his main weight against Crampton's Gap would expose
              > him to an attack from Lee's main body at Turner's Gap, and now
              > Lee had a good chance to draw McClellan into battle at
              > Sharpsburg."
              >
              >
              >
              > He does raise some interesting points, such as why the found
              > copy is in good shape, when it likely laid in the filed during
              > the all-day storm of Sept 11th.
              >
              >
              >
              > Also, why didn't Lee ever investigate the matter of how the
              > copy got lost.
              >
              >
              >
              > Read the article and let me know your thoughts!
              >
              > Tom Shay
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • G E Mayers
              Dear Tom, I asked my wife about the fax number for her work etc. She said it is not exactly a good idea. Can you drop the information in the mail to me if I
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 11, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Tom,

                I asked my wife about the fax number for her work etc. She said it is not exactly a good idea. Can you drop the information in the mail to me if I give you my snail address? Or, if you still have it, can you simply mail me the info?

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:34 AM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War? Addendum


                I have a print out from our library with the MLA format for citing all kinds of stuff. Give me a fax # and I can send you a copy.

                Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College




                >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/28/2010 9:24 AM >>>

                Ok.

                BTW did you ever find the sources you mentioned to me the other
                week on proper citations for books or other media found on the
                Internet?

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:21 AM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
                Addendum

                No, I don't have time for the inevitable argument that would
                ensue.

                Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College

                >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:48 PM >>>

                Tom,

                Thanks for the link to the footnotes.

                You might want to contact the author directly via his email link
                at the end of his piece.

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:45 PM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
                Addendum

                Gerry,
                Go to the bottom and click on the button for the end notes. It
                confused me at first.

                Echoing Gerry, Ryan ignores a number of things that trouble me.
                No mention of the Lee-Davis communications, where states his
                intentions of going to Hagerstown and beyond, not getting into
                the Shenandoah, which he could have easily done from Manassas if
                he'd wanted to. He states that assumption several times, never
                footnoting it. He has some troops out of position time-wise,
                Like Lee & Longstreet in Boonsboro on Sept. 10. NO. Wagons
                leaving Hagerstown for Williamsport on the 13th. NO.
                He also has Lee planning to fight at Sharpsburg based on a map
                in Frederick, so how did he know the terrain in Sharpsburg was
                suitable? What contour map did he looked at? And if it was his
                intention to draw McClellan away from Crampton's and to Turner's
                Gap, why was Turner's held in such small force? If Stuart is
                part of this conspiracy why did he leave Turner's For Crampton's
                Gap? Should not he have "known" where the attack would come? In
                fact, why did Lee go to Hagerstown at all? Why not lay in wait
                to spring the trap? He also suggests Lee knew McClellan was in
                command when he wrote S.O. 191, which is not footnoted, nor
                proven. Joe Harsh had serious doubts, and so do I. The paper and
                handwriting analysis is interesting, but not probative of
                anything. And I wonder if there is universal acceptance of this
                idea that everybody is a competent handwriting analyst.

                Oh, and I have a letter to Carman from Marshall stating that Lee
                did not know 191 had been found until he read McClellan's report
                months later. He also said if they'd know how close McClellan
                was Lee would have left a larger force to guard Turner's Gap. It
                sounds to me like Marshall is faintly criticizing the "Beau
                Sabuer" for lack of intelligence gathering.

                Nice argument counselor, but do you really expect us to convict
                anybody on this evidence?

                Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College

                >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:26 PM >>>

                Tom,

                It bothers me very much that the article is there but not the
                sourcing for the numerous footnotes.

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <RoteBaron@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:21 PM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?

                >
                >
                > Joseph Ryan has posted an interesting article online entitled
                > "Special Order 191: Ruse of War?"
                >
                >
                >
                > You can find it at the MHO website
                > http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/
                >
                >
                >
                > His premise is that Lee intentionally planted SO 191 for
                > Federals to find.
                >
                >
                >
                > He states that Lee "had tricked McClellan into thinking,
                > throwing his main weight against Crampton's Gap would expose
                > him to an attack from Lee's main body at Turner's Gap, and now
                > Lee had a good chance to draw McClellan into battle at
                > Sharpsburg."
                >
                >
                >
                > He does raise some interesting points, such as why the found
                > copy is in good shape, when it likely laid in the filed during
                > the all-day storm of Sept 11th.
                >
                >
                >
                > Also, why didn't Lee ever investigate the matter of how the
                > copy got lost.
                >
                >
                >
                > Read the article and let me know your thoughts!
                >
                > Tom Shay
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Thomas Clemens
                Sure, send me your mailing address. It won t be until I get back to the office again. At this rate, maybe March? Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 11, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sure, send me your mailing address. It won't be until I get back to the office again. At this rate, maybe March?

                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College


                  >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 02/11/10 12:57 PM >>>
                  Dear Tom,

                  I asked my wife about the fax number for her work etc. She said it is not exactly a good idea. Can you drop the information in the mail to me if I give you my snail address? Or, if you still have it, can you simply mail me the info?

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:34 AM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War? Addendum


                  I have a print out from our library with the MLA format for citing all kinds of stuff. Give me a fax # and I can send you a copy.

                  Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College




                  >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/28/2010 9:24 AM >>>

                  Ok.

                  BTW did you ever find the sources you mentioned to me the other
                  week on proper citations for books or other media found on the
                  Internet?

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:21 AM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
                  Addendum

                  No, I don't have time for the inevitable argument that would
                  ensue.

                  Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College

                  >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:48 PM >>>

                  Tom,

                  Thanks for the link to the footnotes.

                  You might want to contact the author directly via his email link
                  at the end of his piece.

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:45 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
                  Addendum

                  Gerry,
                  Go to the bottom and click on the button for the end notes. It
                  confused me at first.

                  Echoing Gerry, Ryan ignores a number of things that trouble me.
                  No mention of the Lee-Davis communications, where states his
                  intentions of going to Hagerstown and beyond, not getting into
                  the Shenandoah, which he could have easily done from Manassas if
                  he'd wanted to. He states that assumption several times, never
                  footnoting it. He has some troops out of position time-wise,
                  Like Lee & Longstreet in Boonsboro on Sept. 10. NO. Wagons
                  leaving Hagerstown for Williamsport on the 13th. NO.
                  He also has Lee planning to fight at Sharpsburg based on a map
                  in Frederick, so how did he know the terrain in Sharpsburg was
                  suitable? What contour map did he looked at? And if it was his
                  intention to draw McClellan away from Crampton's and to Turner's
                  Gap, why was Turner's held in such small force? If Stuart is
                  part of this conspiracy why did he leave Turner's For Crampton's
                  Gap? Should not he have "known" where the attack would come? In
                  fact, why did Lee go to Hagerstown at all? Why not lay in wait
                  to spring the trap? He also suggests Lee knew McClellan was in
                  command when he wrote S.O. 191, which is not footnoted, nor
                  proven. Joe Harsh had serious doubts, and so do I. The paper and
                  handwriting analysis is interesting, but not probative of
                  anything. And I wonder if there is universal acceptance of this
                  idea that everybody is a competent handwriting analyst.

                  Oh, and I have a letter to Carman from Marshall stating that Lee
                  did not know 191 had been found until he read McClellan's report
                  months later. He also said if they'd know how close McClellan
                  was Lee would have left a larger force to guard Turner's Gap. It
                  sounds to me like Marshall is faintly criticizing the "Beau
                  Sabuer" for lack of intelligence gathering.

                  Nice argument counselor, but do you really expect us to convict
                  anybody on this evidence?

                  Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College

                  >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:26 PM >>>

                  Tom,

                  It bothers me very much that the article is there but not the
                  sourcing for the numerous footnotes.

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: <RoteBaron@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:21 PM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?

                  >
                  >
                  > Joseph Ryan has posted an interesting article online entitled
                  > "Special Order 191: Ruse of War?"
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > You can find it at the MHO website
                  > http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > His premise is that Lee intentionally planted SO 191 for
                  > Federals to find.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > He states that Lee "had tricked McClellan into thinking,
                  > throwing his main weight against Crampton's Gap would expose
                  > him to an attack from Lee's main body at Turner's Gap, and now
                  > Lee had a good chance to draw McClellan into battle at
                  > Sharpsburg."
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > He does raise some interesting points, such as why the found
                  > copy is in good shape, when it likely laid in the filed during
                  > the all-day storm of Sept 11th.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Also, why didn't Lee ever investigate the matter of how the
                  > copy got lost.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Read the article and let me know your thoughts!
                  >
                  > Tom Shay
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • G E Mayers
                  Dear Tom, I will send it to your home email address. Thanks! I think you probably will be able to send it to me by snail before March. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 12, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Tom,

                    I will send it to your home email address. Thanks!

                    I think you probably will be able to send it to me by snail before March.

                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:48 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War? Addendum


                    > Sure, send me your mailing address. It won't be until I get back to the office again. At this rate, maybe March?
                    >
                    > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > Professor of History
                    > Hagerstown Community College
                    >
                    >
                    >>>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 02/11/10 12:57 PM >>>
                    > Dear Tom,
                    >
                    > I asked my wife about the fax number for her work etc. She said it is not exactly a good idea. Can you drop the information in the mail to me if I give you my snail address? Or, if you still have it, can you simply mail me the info?
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:34 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War? Addendum
                    >
                    >
                    > I have a print out from our library with the MLA format for citing all kinds of stuff. Give me a fax # and I can send you a copy.
                    >
                    > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                    > Professor of History
                    > Hagerstown Community College
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/28/2010 9:24 AM >>>
                    >
                    > Ok.
                    >
                    > BTW did you ever find the sources you mentioned to me the other
                    > week on proper citations for books or other media found on the
                    > Internet?
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:21 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
                    > Addendum
                    >
                    > No, I don't have time for the inevitable argument that would
                    > ensue.
                    >
                    > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                    > Professor of History
                    > Hagerstown Community College
                    >
                    >>>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:48 PM >>>
                    >
                    > Tom,
                    >
                    > Thanks for the link to the footnotes.
                    >
                    > You might want to contact the author directly via his email link
                    > at the end of his piece.
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:45 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
                    > Addendum
                    >
                    > Gerry,
                    > Go to the bottom and click on the button for the end notes. It
                    > confused me at first.
                    >
                    > Echoing Gerry, Ryan ignores a number of things that trouble me.
                    > No mention of the Lee-Davis communications, where states his
                    > intentions of going to Hagerstown and beyond, not getting into
                    > the Shenandoah, which he could have easily done from Manassas if
                    > he'd wanted to. He states that assumption several times, never
                    > footnoting it. He has some troops out of position time-wise,
                    > Like Lee & Longstreet in Boonsboro on Sept. 10. NO. Wagons
                    > leaving Hagerstown for Williamsport on the 13th. NO.
                    > He also has Lee planning to fight at Sharpsburg based on a map
                    > in Frederick, so how did he know the terrain in Sharpsburg was
                    > suitable? What contour map did he looked at? And if it was his
                    > intention to draw McClellan away from Crampton's and to Turner's
                    > Gap, why was Turner's held in such small force? If Stuart is
                    > part of this conspiracy why did he leave Turner's For Crampton's
                    > Gap? Should not he have "known" where the attack would come? In
                    > fact, why did Lee go to Hagerstown at all? Why not lay in wait
                    > to spring the trap? He also suggests Lee knew McClellan was in
                    > command when he wrote S.O. 191, which is not footnoted, nor
                    > proven. Joe Harsh had serious doubts, and so do I. The paper and
                    > handwriting analysis is interesting, but not probative of
                    > anything. And I wonder if there is universal acceptance of this
                    > idea that everybody is a competent handwriting analyst.
                    >
                    > Oh, and I have a letter to Carman from Marshall stating that Lee
                    > did not know 191 had been found until he read McClellan's report
                    > months later. He also said if they'd know how close McClellan
                    > was Lee would have left a larger force to guard Turner's Gap. It
                    > sounds to me like Marshall is faintly criticizing the "Beau
                    > Sabuer" for lack of intelligence gathering.
                    >
                    > Nice argument counselor, but do you really expect us to convict
                    > anybody on this evidence?
                    >
                    > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                    > Professor of History
                    > Hagerstown Community College
                    >
                    >>>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 1/27/2010 4:26 PM >>>
                    >
                    > Tom,
                    >
                    > It bothers me very much that the article is there but not the
                    > sourcing for the numerous footnotes.
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: <RoteBaron@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:21 PM
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Special Order 191: Ruse of War?
                    >
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Joseph Ryan has posted an interesting article online entitled
                    >> "Special Order 191: Ruse of War?"
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> You can find it at the MHO website
                    >> http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> His premise is that Lee intentionally planted SO 191 for
                    >> Federals to find.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> He states that Lee "had tricked McClellan into thinking,
                    >> throwing his main weight against Crampton's Gap would expose
                    >> him to an attack from Lee's main body at Turner's Gap, and now
                    >> Lee had a good chance to draw McClellan into battle at
                    >> Sharpsburg."
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> He does raise some interesting points, such as why the found
                    >> copy is in good shape, when it likely laid in the filed during
                    >> the all-day storm of Sept 11th.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Also, why didn't Lee ever investigate the matter of how the
                    >> copy got lost.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Read the article and let me know your thoughts!
                    >>
                    >> Tom Shay
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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