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Re: [TalkAntietam] Smithfield (Middleway) VA Bridge

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  • G E Mayers
    Why would Carman make mention of a bridge in W. Va? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one s
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 17, 2010
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      Why would Carman make mention of a bridge in W. Va?

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 8:06 PM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Smithfield (Middleway) VA Bridge


      OR Atlas 1864 maps show a bridge to the east of Smithfield, WV
      (VA in 1862) in Jefferson County. I have found nothing in Carman,
      Tischler, regimental histories, etc., showing a bridge to the
      west of Smithfield on the Opequon therefore, I believe that there
      was not a bridge there in September 1862 or earlier but built
      later clearly by 1864 maybe by Union troops.

      Does anyone have any evidence that there was a bridge there in
      1862? There is a ford nearby.

      Thanks,

      Larry
    • Ian Workman
      Larry, I believe that bridge is on the 1850 map of Jefferson County. If i get a chance I will check it out. There were sideloader shells recovered from under
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 17, 2010
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        Larry,

        I believe that bridge is on the 1850 map of Jefferson County. If i get a
        chance I will check it out. There were sideloader shells recovered from
        under the bridge. This would date the dropped ordinance to after 1863.

        Sincerely,
        Ian Workman

        On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 8:06 PM, eighth_conn_inf
        <eighth_conn_inf@...>wrote:

        >
        >
        > OR Atlas 1864 maps show a bridge to the east of Smithfield, WV (VA in 1862)
        > in Jefferson County. I have found nothing in Carman, Tischler, regimental
        > histories, etc., showing a bridge to the west of Smithfield on the Opequon
        > therefore, I believe that there was not a bridge there in September 1862 or
        > earlier but built later clearly by 1864 maybe by Union troops.
        >
        > Does anyone have any evidence that there was a bridge there in 1862? There
        > is a ford nearby.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Larry
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • G E Mayers
        What are sideloader shells? Ones that would be loaded into a Henry rifle? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage,
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 17, 2010
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          What are sideloader shells? Ones that would be loaded into a
          Henry rifle?

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Ian Workman" <cwdigger@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 10:51 PM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Smithfield (Middleway) VA Bridge


          > Larry,
          >
          > I believe that bridge is on the 1850 map of Jefferson County.
          > If i get a
          > chance I will check it out. There were sideloader shells
          > recovered from
          > under the bridge. This would date the dropped ordinance to
          > after 1863.
          >
          > Sincerely,
          > Ian Workman
          >
          > On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 8:06 PM, eighth_conn_inf
          > <eighth_conn_inf@...>wrote:
          >
          >>
          >>
          >> OR Atlas 1864 maps show a bridge to the east of Smithfield, WV
          >> (VA in 1862)
          >> in Jefferson County. I have found nothing in Carman, Tischler,
          >> regimental
          >> histories, etc., showing a bridge to the west of Smithfield on
          >> the Opequon
          >> therefore, I believe that there was not a bridge there in
          >> September 1862 or
          >> earlier but built later clearly by 1864 maybe by Union troops.
          >>
          >> Does anyone have any evidence that there was a bridge there in
          >> 1862? There
          >> is a ford nearby.
          >>
          >> Thanks,
          >>
          >> Larry
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Ian, Thank you. I e-mailed the Jefferson County Historical Society but have nothing yet. I see one of their journals I see on the 1852 map of Jefferson County
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 18, 2010
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            Ian,

            Thank you. I e-mailed the Jefferson County Historical Society but have nothing yet. I see one of their journals

            I see on the 1852 map of Jefferson County by S. Howell Brown from the LOC that it shows what appears to be a bridge to the west of Middleway along with two fords upstream on the Opequon. Strange that there is no mention in any relevant materials referencing a bridge during the 1862 Maryland Campaign but only for the 1864 campaigns.

            Gerry--West Virginia was not a state in 1862; Carman in his Harpers Ferry Chapter mentions Smithfield twice.

            I see Smithfield (Middleway) is a topic in two Jefferson County Historical Society journals--December 1952 about the battle of Smithfield and the second, December 1980, the Middleway Symposium. Anyone have those?

            Larry

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Ian Workman <cwdigger@...> wrote:
            >
            > Larry,
            >
            > I believe that bridge is on the 1850 map of Jefferson County. If i get a
            > chance I will check it out. There were sideloader shells recovered from
            > under the bridge. This would date the dropped ordinance to after 1863.
            >
            > Sincerely,
            > Ian Workman
            >
            > On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 8:06 PM, eighth_conn_inf
            > <eighth_conn_inf@...>wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > OR Atlas 1864 maps show a bridge to the east of Smithfield, WV (VA in 1862)
            > > in Jefferson County. I have found nothing in Carman, Tischler, regimental
            > > histories, etc., showing a bridge to the west of Smithfield on the Opequon
            > > therefore, I believe that there was not a bridge there in September 1862 or
            > > earlier but built later clearly by 1864 maybe by Union troops.
            > >
            > > Does anyone have any evidence that there was a bridge there in 1862? There
            > > is a ford nearby.
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > >
            > > Larry
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • G E Mayers
            Dear Larry, I stand corrected re Carman using it in his MS for the Maryland Campaign. Yes, I do know W Va was not yet a state in 1862, but what was it called
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 18, 2010
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              Dear Larry,

              I stand corrected re Carman using it in his MS for the Maryland
              Campaign.

              Yes, I do know W Va was not yet a state in 1862, but what was it
              called by the pro Unionists trying to establish a "loyal"
              government there before it became a state?

              And I have a mention of the Seventh WVa in my book but I call it
              the Seventh Virginia (Union) or Seventh Virginia (Yankee).

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 8:26 AM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Smithfield (Middleway) VA Bridge


              Ian,

              Thank you. I e-mailed the Jefferson County Historical Society but
              have nothing yet. I see one of their journals

              I see on the 1852 map of Jefferson County by S. Howell Brown from
              the LOC that it shows what appears to be a bridge to the west of
              Middleway along with two fords upstream on the Opequon. Strange
              that there is no mention in any relevant materials referencing a
              bridge during the 1862 Maryland Campaign but only for the 1864
              campaigns.

              Gerry--West Virginia was not a state in 1862; Carman in his
              Harpers Ferry Chapter mentions Smithfield twice.

              I see Smithfield (Middleway) is a topic in two Jefferson County
              Historical Society journals--December 1952 about the battle of
              Smithfield and the second, December 1980, the Middleway
              Symposium. Anyone have those?

              Larry

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Ian Workman <cwdigger@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Larry,
              >
              > I believe that bridge is on the 1850 map of Jefferson County.
              > If i get a
              > chance I will check it out. There were sideloader shells
              > recovered from
              > under the bridge. This would date the dropped ordinance to
              > after 1863.
              >
              > Sincerely,
              > Ian Workman
              >
              > On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 8:06 PM, eighth_conn_inf
              > <eighth_conn_inf@...>wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > OR Atlas 1864 maps show a bridge to the east of Smithfield,
              > > WV (VA in 1862)
              > > in Jefferson County. I have found nothing in Carman,
              > > Tischler, regimental
              > > histories, etc., showing a bridge to the west of Smithfield
              > > on the Opequon
              > > therefore, I believe that there was not a bridge there in
              > > September 1862 or
              > > earlier but built later clearly by 1864 maybe by Union
              > > troops.
              > >
              > > Does anyone have any evidence that there was a bridge there
              > > in 1862? There
              > > is a ford nearby.
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > >
              > > Larry
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • G E Mayers
              Larry; I recall something using the word Kanawha but not sure..... Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption,
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 18, 2010
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                Larry;

                I recall something using the word "Kanawha" but not sure.....

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 9:04 AM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Smithfield (Middleway) VA Bridge


                Gerry,

                I've never read it being called anything other than "Virginia" by
                anyone during this time. These border counties in Virginia were
                apparently difficult places to live as both Confederate and Union
                forces were around constantly not just during campaigns or
                battles. Partisans on both sides made life miserable in general
                in Loudoun, Jefferson, Clarke, Berkeley, and Morgan Counties with
                Mosby of course being the best known. I'm not sure that Unionists
                were in a large majority in Jefferson, Berkeley or Morgan
                Counties in the future WV "Panhandle."

                Larry

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Dear Larry,
                >
                > I stand corrected re Carman using it in his MS for the Maryland
                > Campaign.
                >
                > Yes, I do know W Va was not yet a state in 1862, but what was
                > it
                > called by the pro Unionists trying to establish a "loyal"
                > government there before it became a state?
                >
                > And I have a mention of the Seventh WVa in my book but I call
                > it
                > the Seventh Virginia (Union) or Seventh Virginia (Yankee).
                >
                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                >
                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                > from
                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              • eighth_conn_inf
                Gerry, That was one of the names suggested for the new state carved out of Virginia: State of Kanawha From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Unrecognized state
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 18, 2010
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                  Gerry,

                  That was one of the names suggested for the new state carved out of Virginia:

                  State of Kanawha
                  From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                  Unrecognized state of the United States 1861 – 1863
                  - Commonwealth of Virginia secedes from the United States and joins the Confederacy April 16, 1861
                  - Wheeling Convention secedes from Virginia August 20, 1861
                  - Admitted to the Union June 20, 1863

                  Kanawha was a proposed name for what later became the U.S. state of West Virginia, formed on October 24, 1861. It consisted of most of the northwestern counties of Virginia, which decided to secede from Virginia after Virginia joined the Confederate States of America on April 17, 1861 at the beginning of the American Civil War (1861–1865). The separation had been approved by the loyalist Wheeling Convention on August 20, 1861. The name of "Kanawha", based on the Kanawha River, was proposed by the convention as the name for the new state.

                  During the First Constitutional Convention, on December 3, 1861, Harmon Sinsel, of Taylor County, made a motion to strike the word Kanawha from the new state constitution. The discussion regarding the motion revealed concerns of possible confusion between the State of Kanawha and the County of Kanawha within the same state. Additionally, there was an expressed desire among the convention members to reflect their Virginian heritage. After much debate, the motion passed 30-14 and a new name was sought.

                  During the subsequent discussion, where names such as "Allegheny", "Augusta", "Columbia", "New Virginia", "Vandalia", "West Virginia" and "Western Virginia" were suggested, it was decided that roll would be called and each member of the Convention would answer their name with their preferred name for the new State. If one of the names reached a majority vote, it would be selected as the new name for the State. Upon vote, 30 of the 44 members had selected "West Virginia". Having reached a majority, the name for the new State officially became West Virginia.

                  About eighteen months later, West Virginia was formally admitted to the Union on June 20, 1863.



                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Larry;
                  >
                  > I recall something using the word "Kanawha" but not sure.....
                  >
                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  >
                  > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                  > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 9:04 AM
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Smithfield (Middleway) VA Bridge
                  >
                  >
                  > Gerry,
                  >
                  > I've never read it being called anything other than "Virginia" by
                  > anyone during this time. These border counties in Virginia were
                  > apparently difficult places to live as both Confederate and Union
                  > forces were around constantly not just during campaigns or
                  > battles. Partisans on both sides made life miserable in general
                  > in Loudoun, Jefferson, Clarke, Berkeley, and Morgan Counties with
                  > Mosby of course being the best known. I'm not sure that Unionists
                  > were in a large majority in Jefferson, Berkeley or Morgan
                  > Counties in the future WV "Panhandle."
                  >
                  > Larry
                  >
                • Ian Workman
                  Hello, Sideloader shells are Confederate manufactured cannonballs. They had a hole in the side of them that was later filled with lead, brass, or iron. The
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 18, 2010
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                    Hello,

                    Sideloader shells are Confederate manufactured cannonballs. They had a hole
                    in the side of them that was later filled with lead, brass, or iron. The
                    case shot balls and the hot sulfer matrix were poured into the balls and let
                    cool. Once the matrix was hardened the side loader hole was plugged. They
                    then drilled a powder chamber through the hole where the fuse was to be
                    placed. Once the powder charge was in place in went the fuse adaptor and the
                    shell was ready for firing.

                    It is also important to notice that there were several skirmishes at this
                    bridge. The weapon of choice for the federal troops was the Spencer carbine.


                    Sincerely,
                    Ian Workman

                    On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 10:01 AM, eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...
                    > wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > Gerry,
                    >
                    > That was one of the names suggested for the new state carved out of
                    > Virginia:
                    >
                    > State of Kanawha
                    > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                    >
                    > Unrecognized state of the United States 1861 � 1863
                    > - Commonwealth of Virginia secedes from the United States and joins the
                    > Confederacy April 16, 1861
                    > - Wheeling Convention secedes from Virginia August 20, 1861
                    > - Admitted to the Union June 20, 1863
                    >
                    > Kanawha was a proposed name for what later became the U.S. state of West
                    > Virginia, formed on October 24, 1861. It consisted of most of the
                    > northwestern counties of Virginia, which decided to secede from Virginia
                    > after Virginia joined the Confederate States of America on April 17, 1861 at
                    > the beginning of the American Civil War (1861�1865). The separation had been
                    > approved by the loyalist Wheeling Convention on August 20, 1861. The name of
                    > "Kanawha", based on the Kanawha River, was proposed by the convention as the
                    > name for the new state.
                    >
                    > During the First Constitutional Convention, on December 3, 1861, Harmon
                    > Sinsel, of Taylor County, made a motion to strike the word Kanawha from the
                    > new state constitution. The discussion regarding the motion revealed
                    > concerns of possible confusion between the State of Kanawha and the County
                    > of Kanawha within the same state. Additionally, there was an expressed
                    > desire among the convention members to reflect their Virginian heritage.
                    > After much debate, the motion passed 30-14 and a new name was sought.
                    >
                    > During the subsequent discussion, where names such as "Allegheny",
                    > "Augusta", "Columbia", "New Virginia", "Vandalia", "West Virginia" and
                    > "Western Virginia" were suggested, it was decided that roll would be called
                    > and each member of the Convention would answer their name with their
                    > preferred name for the new State. If one of the names reached a majority
                    > vote, it would be selected as the new name for the State. Upon vote, 30 of
                    > the 44 members had selected "West Virginia". Having reached a majority, the
                    > name for the new State officially became West Virginia.
                    >
                    > About eighteen months later, West Virginia was formally admitted to the
                    > Union on June 20, 1863.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "G E
                    > Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Larry;
                    > >
                    > > I recall something using the word "Kanawha" but not sure.....
                    > >
                    > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    > >
                    > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                    > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                    > > Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 9:04 AM
                    > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Smithfield (Middleway) VA Bridge
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Gerry,
                    > >
                    > > I've never read it being called anything other than "Virginia" by
                    > > anyone during this time. These border counties in Virginia were
                    > > apparently difficult places to live as both Confederate and Union
                    > > forces were around constantly not just during campaigns or
                    > > battles. Partisans on both sides made life miserable in general
                    > > in Loudoun, Jefferson, Clarke, Berkeley, and Morgan Counties with
                    > > Mosby of course being the best known. I'm not sure that Unionists
                    > > were in a large majority in Jefferson, Berkeley or Morgan
                    > > Counties in the future WV "Panhandle."
                    > >
                    > > Larry
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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