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Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops

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  • Dave
    Gerry, I don t disagree. But, for the folks playing the game, they would have a much better chance of having heard of the Iron Brigade rather than the 17 MI
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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      Gerry, I don't disagree. But, for the folks playing the game, they
      would have a much better chance of having heard of the Iron Brigade
      rather than the 17 MI or equivalent units. They would expect them to
      perform far better than other units based on their performance in this
      battle, plus Gettysburg and beyond (although that is inaccurate in this
      context). They have a more legendary character, you might say. Same
      with the Irish Brigade, I would think. Sort of artistic license,
      perhaps. But, Sid Meier was and is known for having as much or more
      historical accuracy in his games as anyone, while remaining playable.

      Dave

      G E Mayers wrote:
      > Dear Dave,
      >
      > "Green" troops is an understandable quantification, since these
      > would largely be the nine month and three year units hurriedly
      > rushed to the AoP to participate in the campaign. A good and
      > historical example of this would be both the Twentieth Maine
      > Volunteer Infantry and the Thirteenth New Jersey. A typical nine
      > month unit would be either the One-hundred-twenty-eigth
      > Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry or the One-hundred-thirtieth
      > Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry.
      >
      > In the trained category, a unit such as the Seventeenth Michigan
      > would be placed. It was a green unit but had spent much of the
      > summer of 1862 in being properly drilled before being sent to
      > join the main Eastern Federal army.
      >
      > The Iron Brigade did, from what I have read overall, acquit
      > itself quite well during the fighting around the West
      > Woods-Miller Cornfield sector earlier in the morning of September
      > 17th. That is still not to say that some members of the brigade
      > did run or retreat, but their combat experience is better than
      > that of the green units of the Twelfth Army Corps.
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:51 PM
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops
      >
      >
      >
      >> Gerry, having played this game years ago, the developers
      >> probably
      >> resorted to labeling troops "crack" or "green" based on their
      >> historical
      >> performance during the actual battle, and the particular weight
      >> they
      >> wanted to give to each unit. In all these games, the more
      >> experienced
      >> units will rally faster, become less fatigued, be less apt to
      >> break and
      >> run, and so on. They wanted to reflect this in the game.
      >> Couldn't very
      >> well have the Iron Brigade lose cohesion at the first shots,
      >> even though
      >> that could have historically happened based on their limited
      >> battle
      >> experience. All wargames use this technique, afaik.
      >>
      >> Dave McGowan
      >>
      >> G E Mayers wrote:
      >>
      >>> Dean,
      >>>
      >>> Something else you might find interesting... if you look at
      >>> the
      >>> OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you
      >>> will
      >>> find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
      >>> Meier for the Antietam game.
      >>>
      >>> Yr. Obt. Svt.
      >>> G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >>>
      >>> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
      >>> even
      >>> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      >>> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
      >>> from
      >>> the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      >>> ----- Original Message -----
      >>> From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...
      >>> <mailto:d.essig%40comcast.net>>
      >>> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      >>> <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
      >>> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:38 PM
      >>> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of
      >>> troops
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>> That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an
      >>>>> OOB
      >>>>> for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else
      >>>>> out
      >>>>> there.
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>> No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed
      >>>> at
      >>>> the
      >>>> website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat
      >>>> by
      >>>> Carmen
      >>>> himself.
      >>>>
      >>>> Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so
      >>>> ago
      >>>> on the
      >>>> list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded
      >>>> the
      >>>> categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer
      >>>> game.
      >>>>
      >>>> Dean
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
      >>
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      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
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    • Thomas Clemens
      Joining this late, have been reading letters to Carman from the NYPL all afternoon. My favorite quote so far today is Heysinger called Capt. Means of the
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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        Joining this late, have been reading letters to Carman from the NYPL all afternoon. My favorite quote so far today is Heysinger called Capt. Means of the Loudoun Rangers " a damned rebel deserter." Fun stuff.
        Dean is absolutely correct, Carman never designated any troops green, blue, or anything else. Remeber he was leading a green regiment there. Sid Meirs bought the typescript of the Carman manuscript from Joe to put in teh game, and the OOB went with it. They ignored all the stuff leading up to the Antietam, which I think is a very interesting portion of the mss. But it did help Joe fund his research & writing. Complicated asthe ANV OOB can be, and it is, the Union OOB portrayed by Carman is much more reflective of the army after the battle than before it. Likely the OOB will not be in Vol. I but when I put it in Vol. II I want to note when units actually joined the AOP. Those five cavalry brigades, as Larry F can tell you, are a joke. Up until the 17th Lee had more cavalry than McClellan.


        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College


        >>> Dave <gewehr@...> 01/02/10 4:29 PM >>>
        Gerry, I don't disagree. But, for the folks playing the game, they
        would have a much better chance of having heard of the Iron Brigade
        rather than the 17 MI or equivalent units. They would expect them to
        perform far better than other units based on their performance in this
        battle, plus Gettysburg and beyond (although that is inaccurate in this
        context). They have a more legendary character, you might say. Same
        with the Irish Brigade, I would think. Sort of artistic license,
        perhaps. But, Sid Meier was and is known for having as much or more
        historical accuracy in his games as anyone, while remaining playable.

        Dave

        G E Mayers wrote:
        > Dear Dave,
        >
        > "Green" troops is an understandable quantification, since these
        > would largely be the nine month and three year units hurriedly
        > rushed to the AoP to participate in the campaign. A good and
        > historical example of this would be both the Twentieth Maine
        > Volunteer Infantry and the Thirteenth New Jersey. A typical nine
        > month unit would be either the One-hundred-twenty-eigth
        > Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry or the One-hundred-thirtieth
        > Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry.
        >
        > In the trained category, a unit such as the Seventeenth Michigan
        > would be placed. It was a green unit but had spent much of the
        > summer of 1862 in being properly drilled before being sent to
        > join the main Eastern Federal army.
        >
        > The Iron Brigade did, from what I have read overall, acquit
        > itself quite well during the fighting around the West
        > Woods-Miller Cornfield sector earlier in the morning of September
        > 17th. That is still not to say that some members of the brigade
        > did run or retreat, but their combat experience is better than
        > that of the green units of the Twelfth Army Corps.
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:51 PM
        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops
        >
        >
        >
        >> Gerry, having played this game years ago, the developers
        >> probably
        >> resorted to labeling troops "crack" or "green" based on their
        >> historical
        >> performance during the actual battle, and the particular weight
        >> they
        >> wanted to give to each unit. In all these games, the more
        >> experienced
        >> units will rally faster, become less fatigued, be less apt to
        >> break and
        >> run, and so on. They wanted to reflect this in the game.
        >> Couldn't very
        >> well have the Iron Brigade lose cohesion at the first shots,
        >> even though
        >> that could have historically happened based on their limited
        >> battle
        >> experience. All wargames use this technique, afaik.
        >>
        >> Dave McGowan
        >>
        >> G E Mayers wrote:
        >>
        >>> Dean,
        >>>
        >>> Something else you might find interesting... if you look at
        >>> the
        >>> OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you
        >>> will
        >>> find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
        >>> Meier for the Antietam game.
        >>>
        >>> Yr. Obt. Svt.
        >>> G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >>>
        >>> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
        >>> even
        >>> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        >>> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
        >>> from
        >>> the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        >>> ----- Original Message -----
        >>> From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...
        >>> <mailto:d.essig%40comcast.net>>
        >>> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        >>> <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
        >>> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:38 PM
        >>> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of
        >>> troops
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>> That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an
        >>>>> OOB
        >>>>> for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else
        >>>>> out
        >>>>> there.
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>> No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed
        >>>> at
        >>>> the
        >>>> website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat
        >>>> by
        >>>> Carmen
        >>>> himself.
        >>>>
        >>>> Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so
        >>>> ago
        >>>> on the
        >>>> list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded
        >>>> the
        >>>> categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer
        >>>> game.
        >>>>
        >>>> Dean
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>
        >> ------------------------------------
        >>
        >>
        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
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        >
        >
        >



        ------------------------------------


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      • Dean Essig
        ... By trail and error (using the Supplemental OR) I came to the same conclusion. Once cut down to the units available and less the ones being used as provost,
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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          On Jan 2, 2010, at 7:05 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

          > Those five cavalry brigades, as Larry F can tell you, are a joke.

          By trail and error (using the Supplemental OR) I came to the same
          conclusion. Once cut down to the units available and less the ones
          being used as provost, you end up with essentially one brigade under
          Pleasonton. It is shown that way in my game.

          I think the OR/Carmen/everywhere 5-bde organization is the October
          one, not the one in place at the battle.

          Dean

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Trying to find numbers of troopers in their saddles isn t easy so I decided to discount the numbers based on numbers mentioned during the campaign. It has
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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            Trying to find numbers of troopers in their saddles isn't easy so I decided to discount the numbers based on numbers mentioned during the campaign.

            It has become clear to me why the cav on both sides simply could not do more than it was doing--it lacked the numbers. Both Lee and Mac expected more from their horsemen but I believed they understood why it couldn't do more. Still, I expected more from Stuart than Pleasonton.
            Larry



            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dean Essig <d.essig@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Jan 2, 2010, at 7:05 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:
            >
            > > Those five cavalry brigades, as Larry F can tell you, are a joke.
            >
            > By trail and error (using the Supplemental OR) I came to the same
            > conclusion. Once cut down to the units available and less the ones
            > being used as provost, you end up with essentially one brigade under
            > Pleasonton. It is shown that way in my game.
            >
            > I think the OR/Carmen/everywhere 5-bde organization is the October
            > one, not the one in place at the battle.
            >
            > Dean
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • joseph_pierro
            Lol! This question seems to come up again every six months or so. Those color designmations, as have been explained by others here, were the addition of the
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 7, 2010
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              Lol! This question seems to come up again every six months or so.

              Those "color" designmations, as have been explained by others here, were the addition of the GAME DESIGNER. They do not come from Carman.

              This whole Table of Organization exercise provides a useful lesson in historical research. If you look in several sources and they all say the same thing, it's probably the correct answer, right?

              Well . . . not necessarily. It could be that everyone is simply QUOTING from one another -- or all from the same, initial, FLAWED source.

              The ToO in the back of Carman's manuscript -- as is the case with nearly EVERY ToO in EVERY Antietam book, is simply reprinted from the Antietam volume of the OR. (In fact, if you go through Carman's original manuscript, a few of the ToO pages therein aren't even in his handwriting. They're printed pages torn out of a copy of the OR itself.

              The ToOs in the OR are not contemporary documents (such as the reports and dispatches). Those were drafetd by the EDITORS decades after the fact. For a battle like Antietam, where the AoP was receiving units as fast as Halleck and the War Department could ship them to meet up with McCellan, the final composition is a bit difficult to pin down on a particular day. Federal cavalry units that arrived in the aftermath of the battle were "counted" as part of the AoP Order of Battle.

              --joseph pierro
            • joseph_pierro
              Actually, I should amend what I said before. Carman used the OR ToO as the BASIS of the one in his manuscript, but he did make a few corrections. The units are
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 7, 2010
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                Actually, I should amend what I said before.

                Carman used the OR ToO as the BASIS of the one in his manuscript, but he did make a few corrections. The units are nearly identical, but Carman did take exception to the ORs assigment of one or two regiments (and whether one or two CS batteries should be designated as part of an infantry brigade).

                In addition, in a few cases he gave different commanding officers for units than what the OR ToO had.

                So in sum, Carman's ToO is merely a slight tweaking of what was published in the OR. He didn't craft it from scratch. He started with what the OR provided and then made a few corrections whenever he came across something that contradicted what the OR stated, but he never made a comprehensive effort to "proofread" or "factcheck" the OR ToO. Carman's ToO is not THE definitive accounting (if in fact the truth of every unit -- particularly in the AoP -- can ever be known). If the OR ToO contained an error, there's a chance it was carried over into Carman's version. As is true of those in Murfin, Sears, etc. (Sears in particular states quite candidly that he took his ToO from the OR.)

                That, btw, is the standard practice in most every ToO you find in the back of a modern study of a Civil War battle. With rare exceptions (Harsh comes to mind) the author isn't starting from scratch; they're just copying straight from the OR.

                So just because your favorite book on a particular CW battle has a ToO that matches the OR ToO exactly, that DOESN'T necessarily mean that teh information is 100% accurate. It just means your book copied it from the OR.
              • G E Mayers
                Dear Jake, All that makes sense. But what does ToO mean? I gather it means the same as OOB but what do the initials stand for? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 7, 2010
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                  Dear Jake,

                  All that makes sense. But what does ToO mean? I gather it means
                  the same as OOB but what do the initials stand for?

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 3:22 PM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Carman and designations of troops



                  <snip>In addition, in a few cases he gave different commanding
                  officers for units than what the OR ToO had.
                  <snip>
                • joseph_pierro
                  Table of Organization
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 7, 2010
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                    Table of Organization

                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Jake,
                    >
                    > All that makes sense. But what does ToO mean? I gather it means
                    > the same as OOB but what do the initials stand for?
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 3:22 PM
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Carman and designations of troops
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > <snip>In addition, in a few cases he gave different commanding
                    > officers for units than what the OR ToO had.
                    > <snip>
                    >
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