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Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops

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  • G E Mayers
    Dear Dean, That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an OOB for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else out there. Yr. Obt. Svt.
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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      Dear Dean,

      That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an OOB
      for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else out
      there.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:28 PM
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops


      > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:21 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
      >
      >> I would suggest you read Harsh's Taken at the Flood for ANVa
      >> strengths and also his companion volume Sounding the Shallows,
      >> before commenting on any funny business a la Carman!
      >
      > Gerry,
      >
      > I have and those OOBs are NOT Carmen's, they are Sid Miers'.
      > Feel
      > free to not take my word for it.
      >
      > Good day, sir.
      >
      > Dean
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
    • Dean Essig
      ... No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed at the website s OOB. Harsh s work is the gold standard, only beat by Carmen himself. Unless
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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        On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

        > That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an OOB
        > for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else out
        > there.
        >

        No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed at the
        website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat by Carmen
        himself.

        Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so ago on the
        list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded the
        categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer game.

        Dean
      • G E Mayers
        Larry, Be as that may, I am hoping Tom Clemens will comment on the original post, since he is perhaps -- next to Jake Pierro -- the one most familiar with
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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          Larry,

          Be as that may, I am hoping Tom Clemens will comment on the
          original post, since he is perhaps -- next to Jake Pierro -- the
          one most familiar with Carman's manuscript.

          I do believe Carman had a designation for the various regimental
          commands to reflect their level of combat experience/expertise.
          Interestingly enough, Harsh does allude to this, because in his
          Sounding the Shallows (IIRC), he mentions that the Confederate
          troop strengths per regiment as given by Carman actually were
          done on the Federal model (present for duty) rather than the
          Confederate model (muskets only) and consequently, the numbers
          favor the Federals.

          I would be very interested in what differentiated Crack vs Elite
          troops. According to the OOB in Carman (or Sid Meier, if that is
          where it came from), the Midwestern Brigade ("Iron Brigade")
          commanded by Gibbon at Sharpsburg was given the designation of
          "Crack troops" -- even though the first engagement for the
          command was Brawner's Farm about three to four weeks earlier.

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:26 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Carman and designations of troops


          Jake Pierro has many footnotes in his Appendix B of his Carman
          book for the OOB of the ANV which prove helpful. Likely Tom
          Clemens will also delve into the OOB issues in his new book.

          Larry

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I would suggest you read Harsh's Taken at the Flood for ANVa
          > strengths and also his companion volume Sounding the Shallows,
          > before commenting on any funny business a la Carman!
          >
          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          >
          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
          > from
          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:13 PM
          > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of
          > troops
          >
          >
          > > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:09 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
          > >
          > >> Actually the OOB is in itself an error.
          > >
          > > There is a lot of funny-business going on in there, certainly
          > > _not_
          > > up to Gen. Carmen's standards !
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          >
        • G E Mayers
          Dear Dean, Again, be as that may, I answered Larry s post about much the same thoughts. I would like much to hear what Tom Carman Clemens has to say about
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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            Dear Dean,

            Again, be as that may, I answered Larry's post about much the
            same thoughts. I would like much to hear what Tom "Carman"
            Clemens has to say about that!

            ;)

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:38 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops


            >
            > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
            >
            >> That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an
            >> OOB
            >> for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else
            >> out
            >> there.
            >>
            >
            > No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed at
            > the
            > website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat by
            > Carmen
            > himself.
            >
            > Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so ago
            > on the
            > list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded the
            > categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer
            > game.
            >
            > Dean
            >
          • G E Mayers
            Dean, Something else you might find interesting... if you look at the OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you will find it pretty much
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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              Dean,

              Something else you might find interesting... if you look at the
              OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you will
              find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
              Meier for the Antietam game.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:38 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops


              >
              > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
              >
              >> That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an
              >> OOB
              >> for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else
              >> out
              >> there.
              >>
              >
              > No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed at
              > the
              > website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat by
              > Carmen
              > himself.
              >
              > Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so ago
              > on the
              > list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded the
              > categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer
              > game.
              >
              > Dean
              >
            • Dean Essig
              ... Not surprising, popular book available for a game designer to copy down. Compare it to the Carmen OOB in Pierro s book, that should convince you. [Non-text
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:41 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                > Something else you might find interesting... if you look at the
                > OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you will
                > find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
                > Meier for the Antietam game.

                Not surprising, popular book available for a game designer to copy down.

                Compare it to the Carmen OOB in Pierro's book, that should convince you.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dave
                Gerry, having played this game years ago, the developers probably resorted to labeling troops crack or green based on their historical performance during
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                  Gerry, having played this game years ago, the developers probably
                  resorted to labeling troops "crack" or "green" based on their historical
                  performance during the actual battle, and the particular weight they
                  wanted to give to each unit. In all these games, the more experienced
                  units will rally faster, become less fatigued, be less apt to break and
                  run, and so on. They wanted to reflect this in the game. Couldn't very
                  well have the Iron Brigade lose cohesion at the first shots, even though
                  that could have historically happened based on their limited battle
                  experience. All wargames use this technique, afaik.

                  Dave McGowan

                  G E Mayers wrote:
                  >
                  > Dean,
                  >
                  > Something else you might find interesting... if you look at the
                  > OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you will
                  > find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
                  > Meier for the Antietam game.
                  >
                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  >
                  > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@... <mailto:d.essig%40comcast.net>>
                  > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                  > Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:38 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops
                  >
                  > >
                  > > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an
                  > >> OOB
                  > >> for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else
                  > >> out
                  > >> there.
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > > No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed at
                  > > the
                  > > website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat by
                  > > Carmen
                  > > himself.
                  > >
                  > > Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so ago
                  > > on the
                  > > list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded the
                  > > categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer
                  > > game.
                  > >
                  > > Dean
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                • G E Mayers
                  I do not have Pierro s book here. If someone has a way (maybe a project for you, Brian???) to compare the two side by side, that would be an interesting
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                    I do not have Pierro's book here. If someone has a way (maybe a
                    project for you, Brian???) to compare the two side by side, that
                    would be an interesting project.....

                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:46 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops


                    > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:41 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                    >
                    >> Something else you might find interesting... if you look at
                    >> the
                    >> OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you
                    >> will
                    >> find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
                    >> Meier for the Antietam game.
                    >
                    > Not surprising, popular book available for a game designer to
                    > copy down.
                    >
                    > Compare it to the Carmen OOB in Pierro's book, that should
                    > convince you.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                  • G E Mayers
                    Dear Dave, Green troops is an understandable quantification, since these would largely be the nine month and three year units hurriedly rushed to the AoP to
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                      Dear Dave,

                      "Green" troops is an understandable quantification, since these
                      would largely be the nine month and three year units hurriedly
                      rushed to the AoP to participate in the campaign. A good and
                      historical example of this would be both the Twentieth Maine
                      Volunteer Infantry and the Thirteenth New Jersey. A typical nine
                      month unit would be either the One-hundred-twenty-eigth
                      Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry or the One-hundred-thirtieth
                      Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry.

                      In the trained category, a unit such as the Seventeenth Michigan
                      would be placed. It was a green unit but had spent much of the
                      summer of 1862 in being properly drilled before being sent to
                      join the main Eastern Federal army.

                      The Iron Brigade did, from what I have read overall, acquit
                      itself quite well during the fighting around the West
                      Woods-Miller Cornfield sector earlier in the morning of September
                      17th. That is still not to say that some members of the brigade
                      did run or retreat, but their combat experience is better than
                      that of the green units of the Twelfth Army Corps.

                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:51 PM
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops


                      > Gerry, having played this game years ago, the developers
                      > probably
                      > resorted to labeling troops "crack" or "green" based on their
                      > historical
                      > performance during the actual battle, and the particular weight
                      > they
                      > wanted to give to each unit. In all these games, the more
                      > experienced
                      > units will rally faster, become less fatigued, be less apt to
                      > break and
                      > run, and so on. They wanted to reflect this in the game.
                      > Couldn't very
                      > well have the Iron Brigade lose cohesion at the first shots,
                      > even though
                      > that could have historically happened based on their limited
                      > battle
                      > experience. All wargames use this technique, afaik.
                      >
                      > Dave McGowan
                      >
                      > G E Mayers wrote:
                      >>
                      >> Dean,
                      >>
                      >> Something else you might find interesting... if you look at
                      >> the
                      >> OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you
                      >> will
                      >> find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
                      >> Meier for the Antietam game.
                      >>
                      >> Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      >> G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      >>
                      >> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
                      >> even
                      >> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      >> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                      >> from
                      >> the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      >> ----- Original Message -----
                      >> From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...
                      >> <mailto:d.essig%40comcast.net>>
                      >> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      >> <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                      >> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:38 PM
                      >> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of
                      >> troops
                      >>
                      >> >
                      >> > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                      >> >
                      >> >> That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an
                      >> >> OOB
                      >> >> for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else
                      >> >> out
                      >> >> there.
                      >> >>
                      >> >
                      >> > No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed
                      >> > at
                      >> > the
                      >> > website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat
                      >> > by
                      >> > Carmen
                      >> > himself.
                      >> >
                      >> > Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so
                      >> > ago
                      >> > on the
                      >> > list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded
                      >> > the
                      >> > categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer
                      >> > game.
                      >> >
                      >> > Dean
                      >> >
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Dave
                      Gerry, I don t disagree. But, for the folks playing the game, they would have a much better chance of having heard of the Iron Brigade rather than the 17 MI
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                        Gerry, I don't disagree. But, for the folks playing the game, they
                        would have a much better chance of having heard of the Iron Brigade
                        rather than the 17 MI or equivalent units. They would expect them to
                        perform far better than other units based on their performance in this
                        battle, plus Gettysburg and beyond (although that is inaccurate in this
                        context). They have a more legendary character, you might say. Same
                        with the Irish Brigade, I would think. Sort of artistic license,
                        perhaps. But, Sid Meier was and is known for having as much or more
                        historical accuracy in his games as anyone, while remaining playable.

                        Dave

                        G E Mayers wrote:
                        > Dear Dave,
                        >
                        > "Green" troops is an understandable quantification, since these
                        > would largely be the nine month and three year units hurriedly
                        > rushed to the AoP to participate in the campaign. A good and
                        > historical example of this would be both the Twentieth Maine
                        > Volunteer Infantry and the Thirteenth New Jersey. A typical nine
                        > month unit would be either the One-hundred-twenty-eigth
                        > Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry or the One-hundred-thirtieth
                        > Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry.
                        >
                        > In the trained category, a unit such as the Seventeenth Michigan
                        > would be placed. It was a green unit but had spent much of the
                        > summer of 1862 in being properly drilled before being sent to
                        > join the main Eastern Federal army.
                        >
                        > The Iron Brigade did, from what I have read overall, acquit
                        > itself quite well during the fighting around the West
                        > Woods-Miller Cornfield sector earlier in the morning of September
                        > 17th. That is still not to say that some members of the brigade
                        > did run or retreat, but their combat experience is better than
                        > that of the green units of the Twelfth Army Corps.
                        >
                        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        >
                        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
                        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:51 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >> Gerry, having played this game years ago, the developers
                        >> probably
                        >> resorted to labeling troops "crack" or "green" based on their
                        >> historical
                        >> performance during the actual battle, and the particular weight
                        >> they
                        >> wanted to give to each unit. In all these games, the more
                        >> experienced
                        >> units will rally faster, become less fatigued, be less apt to
                        >> break and
                        >> run, and so on. They wanted to reflect this in the game.
                        >> Couldn't very
                        >> well have the Iron Brigade lose cohesion at the first shots,
                        >> even though
                        >> that could have historically happened based on their limited
                        >> battle
                        >> experience. All wargames use this technique, afaik.
                        >>
                        >> Dave McGowan
                        >>
                        >> G E Mayers wrote:
                        >>
                        >>> Dean,
                        >>>
                        >>> Something else you might find interesting... if you look at
                        >>> the
                        >>> OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you
                        >>> will
                        >>> find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
                        >>> Meier for the Antietam game.
                        >>>
                        >>> Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        >>> G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        >>>
                        >>> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
                        >>> even
                        >>> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        >>> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                        >>> from
                        >>> the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        >>> ----- Original Message -----
                        >>> From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...
                        >>> <mailto:d.essig%40comcast.net>>
                        >>> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        >>> <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                        >>> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:38 PM
                        >>> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of
                        >>> troops
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an
                        >>>>> OOB
                        >>>>> for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else
                        >>>>> out
                        >>>>> there.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>> No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed
                        >>>> at
                        >>>> the
                        >>>> website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat
                        >>>> by
                        >>>> Carmen
                        >>>> himself.
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so
                        >>>> ago
                        >>>> on the
                        >>>> list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded
                        >>>> the
                        >>>> categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer
                        >>>> game.
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Dean
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>
                        >>
                        >> ------------------------------------
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Thomas Clemens
                        Joining this late, have been reading letters to Carman from the NYPL all afternoon. My favorite quote so far today is Heysinger called Capt. Means of the
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                          Joining this late, have been reading letters to Carman from the NYPL all afternoon. My favorite quote so far today is Heysinger called Capt. Means of the Loudoun Rangers " a damned rebel deserter." Fun stuff.
                          Dean is absolutely correct, Carman never designated any troops green, blue, or anything else. Remeber he was leading a green regiment there. Sid Meirs bought the typescript of the Carman manuscript from Joe to put in teh game, and the OOB went with it. They ignored all the stuff leading up to the Antietam, which I think is a very interesting portion of the mss. But it did help Joe fund his research & writing. Complicated asthe ANV OOB can be, and it is, the Union OOB portrayed by Carman is much more reflective of the army after the battle than before it. Likely the OOB will not be in Vol. I but when I put it in Vol. II I want to note when units actually joined the AOP. Those five cavalry brigades, as Larry F can tell you, are a joke. Up until the 17th Lee had more cavalry than McClellan.


                          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          Professor of History
                          Hagerstown Community College


                          >>> Dave <gewehr@...> 01/02/10 4:29 PM >>>
                          Gerry, I don't disagree. But, for the folks playing the game, they
                          would have a much better chance of having heard of the Iron Brigade
                          rather than the 17 MI or equivalent units. They would expect them to
                          perform far better than other units based on their performance in this
                          battle, plus Gettysburg and beyond (although that is inaccurate in this
                          context). They have a more legendary character, you might say. Same
                          with the Irish Brigade, I would think. Sort of artistic license,
                          perhaps. But, Sid Meier was and is known for having as much or more
                          historical accuracy in his games as anyone, while remaining playable.

                          Dave

                          G E Mayers wrote:
                          > Dear Dave,
                          >
                          > "Green" troops is an understandable quantification, since these
                          > would largely be the nine month and three year units hurriedly
                          > rushed to the AoP to participate in the campaign. A good and
                          > historical example of this would be both the Twentieth Maine
                          > Volunteer Infantry and the Thirteenth New Jersey. A typical nine
                          > month unit would be either the One-hundred-twenty-eigth
                          > Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry or the One-hundred-thirtieth
                          > Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry.
                          >
                          > In the trained category, a unit such as the Seventeenth Michigan
                          > would be placed. It was a green unit but had spent much of the
                          > summer of 1862 in being properly drilled before being sent to
                          > join the main Eastern Federal army.
                          >
                          > The Iron Brigade did, from what I have read overall, acquit
                          > itself quite well during the fighting around the West
                          > Woods-Miller Cornfield sector earlier in the morning of September
                          > 17th. That is still not to say that some members of the brigade
                          > did run or retreat, but their combat experience is better than
                          > that of the green units of the Twelfth Army Corps.
                          >
                          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                          >
                          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
                          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:51 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >> Gerry, having played this game years ago, the developers
                          >> probably
                          >> resorted to labeling troops "crack" or "green" based on their
                          >> historical
                          >> performance during the actual battle, and the particular weight
                          >> they
                          >> wanted to give to each unit. In all these games, the more
                          >> experienced
                          >> units will rally faster, become less fatigued, be less apt to
                          >> break and
                          >> run, and so on. They wanted to reflect this in the game.
                          >> Couldn't very
                          >> well have the Iron Brigade lose cohesion at the first shots,
                          >> even though
                          >> that could have historically happened based on their limited
                          >> battle
                          >> experience. All wargames use this technique, afaik.
                          >>
                          >> Dave McGowan
                          >>
                          >> G E Mayers wrote:
                          >>
                          >>> Dean,
                          >>>
                          >>> Something else you might find interesting... if you look at
                          >>> the
                          >>> OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you
                          >>> will
                          >>> find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
                          >>> Meier for the Antietam game.
                          >>>
                          >>> Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          >>> G E "Gerry" Mayers
                          >>>
                          >>> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
                          >>> even
                          >>> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          >>> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                          >>> from
                          >>> the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          >>> ----- Original Message -----
                          >>> From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...
                          >>> <mailto:d.essig%40comcast.net>>
                          >>> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          >>> <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                          >>> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:38 PM
                          >>> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of
                          >>> troops
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>> That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an
                          >>>>> OOB
                          >>>>> for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else
                          >>>>> out
                          >>>>> there.
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>> No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed
                          >>>> at
                          >>>> the
                          >>>> website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat
                          >>>> by
                          >>>> Carmen
                          >>>> himself.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so
                          >>>> ago
                          >>>> on the
                          >>>> list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded
                          >>>> the
                          >>>> categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer
                          >>>> game.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Dean
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >> ------------------------------------
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          ------------------------------------


                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • Dean Essig
                          ... By trail and error (using the Supplemental OR) I came to the same conclusion. Once cut down to the units available and less the ones being used as provost,
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                            On Jan 2, 2010, at 7:05 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                            > Those five cavalry brigades, as Larry F can tell you, are a joke.

                            By trail and error (using the Supplemental OR) I came to the same
                            conclusion. Once cut down to the units available and less the ones
                            being used as provost, you end up with essentially one brigade under
                            Pleasonton. It is shown that way in my game.

                            I think the OR/Carmen/everywhere 5-bde organization is the October
                            one, not the one in place at the battle.

                            Dean

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • eighth_conn_inf
                            Trying to find numbers of troopers in their saddles isn t easy so I decided to discount the numbers based on numbers mentioned during the campaign. It has
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                              Trying to find numbers of troopers in their saddles isn't easy so I decided to discount the numbers based on numbers mentioned during the campaign.

                              It has become clear to me why the cav on both sides simply could not do more than it was doing--it lacked the numbers. Both Lee and Mac expected more from their horsemen but I believed they understood why it couldn't do more. Still, I expected more from Stuart than Pleasonton.
                              Larry



                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dean Essig <d.essig@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > On Jan 2, 2010, at 7:05 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:
                              >
                              > > Those five cavalry brigades, as Larry F can tell you, are a joke.
                              >
                              > By trail and error (using the Supplemental OR) I came to the same
                              > conclusion. Once cut down to the units available and less the ones
                              > being used as provost, you end up with essentially one brigade under
                              > Pleasonton. It is shown that way in my game.
                              >
                              > I think the OR/Carmen/everywhere 5-bde organization is the October
                              > one, not the one in place at the battle.
                              >
                              > Dean
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • joseph_pierro
                              Lol! This question seems to come up again every six months or so. Those color designmations, as have been explained by others here, were the addition of the
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jan 7, 2010
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                                Lol! This question seems to come up again every six months or so.

                                Those "color" designmations, as have been explained by others here, were the addition of the GAME DESIGNER. They do not come from Carman.

                                This whole Table of Organization exercise provides a useful lesson in historical research. If you look in several sources and they all say the same thing, it's probably the correct answer, right?

                                Well . . . not necessarily. It could be that everyone is simply QUOTING from one another -- or all from the same, initial, FLAWED source.

                                The ToO in the back of Carman's manuscript -- as is the case with nearly EVERY ToO in EVERY Antietam book, is simply reprinted from the Antietam volume of the OR. (In fact, if you go through Carman's original manuscript, a few of the ToO pages therein aren't even in his handwriting. They're printed pages torn out of a copy of the OR itself.

                                The ToOs in the OR are not contemporary documents (such as the reports and dispatches). Those were drafetd by the EDITORS decades after the fact. For a battle like Antietam, where the AoP was receiving units as fast as Halleck and the War Department could ship them to meet up with McCellan, the final composition is a bit difficult to pin down on a particular day. Federal cavalry units that arrived in the aftermath of the battle were "counted" as part of the AoP Order of Battle.

                                --joseph pierro
                              • joseph_pierro
                                Actually, I should amend what I said before. Carman used the OR ToO as the BASIS of the one in his manuscript, but he did make a few corrections. The units are
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jan 7, 2010
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                                  Actually, I should amend what I said before.

                                  Carman used the OR ToO as the BASIS of the one in his manuscript, but he did make a few corrections. The units are nearly identical, but Carman did take exception to the ORs assigment of one or two regiments (and whether one or two CS batteries should be designated as part of an infantry brigade).

                                  In addition, in a few cases he gave different commanding officers for units than what the OR ToO had.

                                  So in sum, Carman's ToO is merely a slight tweaking of what was published in the OR. He didn't craft it from scratch. He started with what the OR provided and then made a few corrections whenever he came across something that contradicted what the OR stated, but he never made a comprehensive effort to "proofread" or "factcheck" the OR ToO. Carman's ToO is not THE definitive accounting (if in fact the truth of every unit -- particularly in the AoP -- can ever be known). If the OR ToO contained an error, there's a chance it was carried over into Carman's version. As is true of those in Murfin, Sears, etc. (Sears in particular states quite candidly that he took his ToO from the OR.)

                                  That, btw, is the standard practice in most every ToO you find in the back of a modern study of a Civil War battle. With rare exceptions (Harsh comes to mind) the author isn't starting from scratch; they're just copying straight from the OR.

                                  So just because your favorite book on a particular CW battle has a ToO that matches the OR ToO exactly, that DOESN'T necessarily mean that teh information is 100% accurate. It just means your book copied it from the OR.
                                • G E Mayers
                                  Dear Jake, All that makes sense. But what does ToO mean? I gather it means the same as OOB but what do the initials stand for? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jan 7, 2010
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                                    Dear Jake,

                                    All that makes sense. But what does ToO mean? I gather it means
                                    the same as OOB but what do the initials stand for?

                                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 3:22 PM
                                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Carman and designations of troops



                                    <snip>In addition, in a few cases he gave different commanding
                                    officers for units than what the OR ToO had.
                                    <snip>
                                  • joseph_pierro
                                    Table of Organization
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jan 7, 2010
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                                      Table of Organization

                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear Jake,
                                      >
                                      > All that makes sense. But what does ToO mean? I gather it means
                                      > the same as OOB but what do the initials stand for?
                                      >
                                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                      >
                                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 3:22 PM
                                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Carman and designations of troops
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > <snip>In addition, in a few cases he gave different commanding
                                      > officers for units than what the OR ToO had.
                                      > <snip>
                                      >
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