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Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops

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  • G E Mayers
    Dean, Thanks! However, I think our resident Carman experts might be able to weigh in on it also! Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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      Dean,

      Thanks! However, I think our resident Carman experts might be
      able to weigh in on it also!

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 2:50 PM
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops


      > Gerry,
      >
      > The site mentions the game on the first page as the source of
      > the text.
      >
      > "The latest Civil War computer game from Firaxis is Sid Meier's
      > "Antietam".
      >
      > Dean
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
    • G E Mayers
      Dean, Actually the OOB is in itself an error. Most historians make the mistake of back dating the OOB for the ANVa to September; as I am sure you well know,
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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        Dean,

        Actually the OOB is in itself an error. Most historians make the
        mistake of back dating the OOB for the ANVa to September; as I am
        sure you well know, the OOB for ANVa for Fredericksburg reflects
        the reorganization efforts which Lee undertook beginning on
        September 18th and continuing through October, with the final
        announces being done in early November.

        Harsh makes a convincing argument that at least a third of the
        ANVa strength present on September 17th was not attached to
        either Jackson's or Longstreet's wings, but independent commands,
        answering directly to Lee.

        The CS Congress did not authorize the rank of Lieutenant-General
        until early October, about three weeks after Sharpsburg. Once Lee
        receives word of this, he immediately proposes to the War
        Department that Longstreet and Jackson be promoted to the new
        rank and given command of a corps. Also interesting that
        Longstreet's DOR (date of rank) for Lieutenant-General predates
        Jackson's by a day!

        There is also evidence that Lee might have considered A P Hill
        and D H Hill for a possible third corps. Lee was clearly not
        happy overall with D H Hill's performance. Even though A P Hill's
        stock had risen considerably and Lee considered him the best
        general he had after Longstreet and Jackson, I do not think Lee
        was yet ready to hand Little Powell another Lieutenant-Generlacy
        and a third corps.

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 2:44 PM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops


        > Gerry.
        >
        > That's not actually Carmen... there was a computer game (forget
        > the
        > name) that used some Carmen text and appended the game OOB with
        > the
        > game's assessments on the units. The strengths are pretty
        > fishy, too.
        >
        > Dean
        >
        > On Jan 2, 2010, at 1:40 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
        >
        >> Gang,
        >>
        >> I have noticed that Carman, in his Antietam OOB at the end of
        >> the
        >> battle manuscript found on this link
        >> (http://kperlotto3.home.comcast.net/~kperlotto3/carman/carman.html
        >> ) uses the designations of Green Troops, Trained Troops,
        >> Veteran
        >> Troops, Elite Troops and Crack Troops.
        >>
        >> I understand the how and why of his designation of Green
        >> Troops,
        >> especially for the nine month units in the AoP (and similarly
        >> for
        >> the Trained Troops). Veteran troops would be those which had
        >> at
        >> least seen one battle.
        >>
        >> Any one know what criteria he used to distinguish between
        >> Elite
        >> Troops and Crack Troops?
        >>
        >> Yr. Obt. Svt.
        >> G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >>
        >> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
        >> even
        >> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        >> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
        >> from
        >> the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> ------------------------------------
        >>
        >>
        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
      • Dean Essig
        ... There is a lot of funny-business going on in there, certainly _not_ up to Gen. Carmen s standards ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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          On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:09 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

          > Actually the OOB is in itself an error.

          There is a lot of funny-business going on in there, certainly _not_
          up to Gen. Carmen's standards !



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • G E Mayers
          I would suggest you read Harsh s Taken at the Flood for ANVa strengths and also his companion volume Sounding the Shallows, before commenting on any funny
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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            I would suggest you read Harsh's Taken at the Flood for ANVa
            strengths and also his companion volume Sounding the Shallows,
            before commenting on any funny business a la Carman!

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:13 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops


            > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:09 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
            >
            >> Actually the OOB is in itself an error.
            >
            > There is a lot of funny-business going on in there, certainly
            > _not_
            > up to Gen. Carmen's standards !
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
          • eighth_conn_inf
            Jake Pierro has many footnotes in his Appendix B of his Carman book for the OOB of the ANV which prove helpful. Likely Tom Clemens will also delve into the OOB
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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              Jake Pierro has many footnotes in his Appendix B of his Carman book for the OOB of the ANV which prove helpful. Likely Tom Clemens will also delve into the OOB issues in his new book.

              Larry

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
              >
              > I would suggest you read Harsh's Taken at the Flood for ANVa
              > strengths and also his companion volume Sounding the Shallows,
              > before commenting on any funny business a la Carman!
              >
              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              >
              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:13 PM
              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops
              >
              >
              > > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:09 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
              > >
              > >> Actually the OOB is in itself an error.
              > >
              > > There is a lot of funny-business going on in there, certainly
              > > _not_
              > > up to Gen. Carmen's standards !
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Dean Essig
              ... Gerry, I have and those OOBs are NOT Carmen s, they are Sid Miers . Feel free to not take my word for it. Good day, sir. Dean [Non-text portions of this
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:21 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                > I would suggest you read Harsh's Taken at the Flood for ANVa
                > strengths and also his companion volume Sounding the Shallows,
                > before commenting on any funny business a la Carman!

                Gerry,

                I have and those OOBs are NOT Carmen's, they are Sid Miers'. Feel
                free to not take my word for it.

                Good day, sir.

                Dean



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • G E Mayers
                Dear Dean, That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an OOB for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else out there. Yr. Obt. Svt.
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                  Dear Dean,

                  That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an OOB
                  for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else out
                  there.

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:28 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops


                  > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:21 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                  >
                  >> I would suggest you read Harsh's Taken at the Flood for ANVa
                  >> strengths and also his companion volume Sounding the Shallows,
                  >> before commenting on any funny business a la Carman!
                  >
                  > Gerry,
                  >
                  > I have and those OOBs are NOT Carmen's, they are Sid Miers'.
                  > Feel
                  > free to not take my word for it.
                  >
                  > Good day, sir.
                  >
                  > Dean
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Dean Essig
                  ... No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed at the website s OOB. Harsh s work is the gold standard, only beat by Carmen himself. Unless
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                    On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                    > That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an OOB
                    > for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else out
                    > there.
                    >

                    No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed at the
                    website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat by Carmen
                    himself.

                    Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so ago on the
                    list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded the
                    categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer game.

                    Dean
                  • G E Mayers
                    Larry, Be as that may, I am hoping Tom Clemens will comment on the original post, since he is perhaps -- next to Jake Pierro -- the one most familiar with
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                      Larry,

                      Be as that may, I am hoping Tom Clemens will comment on the
                      original post, since he is perhaps -- next to Jake Pierro -- the
                      one most familiar with Carman's manuscript.

                      I do believe Carman had a designation for the various regimental
                      commands to reflect their level of combat experience/expertise.
                      Interestingly enough, Harsh does allude to this, because in his
                      Sounding the Shallows (IIRC), he mentions that the Confederate
                      troop strengths per regiment as given by Carman actually were
                      done on the Federal model (present for duty) rather than the
                      Confederate model (muskets only) and consequently, the numbers
                      favor the Federals.

                      I would be very interested in what differentiated Crack vs Elite
                      troops. According to the OOB in Carman (or Sid Meier, if that is
                      where it came from), the Midwestern Brigade ("Iron Brigade")
                      commanded by Gibbon at Sharpsburg was given the designation of
                      "Crack troops" -- even though the first engagement for the
                      command was Brawner's Farm about three to four weeks earlier.

                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:26 PM
                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Carman and designations of troops


                      Jake Pierro has many footnotes in his Appendix B of his Carman
                      book for the OOB of the ANV which prove helpful. Likely Tom
                      Clemens will also delve into the OOB issues in his new book.

                      Larry

                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > I would suggest you read Harsh's Taken at the Flood for ANVa
                      > strengths and also his companion volume Sounding the Shallows,
                      > before commenting on any funny business a la Carman!
                      >
                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      >
                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                      > from
                      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:13 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of
                      > troops
                      >
                      >
                      > > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:09 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                      > >
                      > >> Actually the OOB is in itself an error.
                      > >
                      > > There is a lot of funny-business going on in there, certainly
                      > > _not_
                      > > up to Gen. Carmen's standards !
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • G E Mayers
                      Dear Dean, Again, be as that may, I answered Larry s post about much the same thoughts. I would like much to hear what Tom Carman Clemens has to say about
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                        Dear Dean,

                        Again, be as that may, I answered Larry's post about much the
                        same thoughts. I would like much to hear what Tom "Carman"
                        Clemens has to say about that!

                        ;)

                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:38 PM
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops


                        >
                        > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                        >
                        >> That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an
                        >> OOB
                        >> for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else
                        >> out
                        >> there.
                        >>
                        >
                        > No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed at
                        > the
                        > website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat by
                        > Carmen
                        > himself.
                        >
                        > Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so ago
                        > on the
                        > list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded the
                        > categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer
                        > game.
                        >
                        > Dean
                        >
                      • G E Mayers
                        Dean, Something else you might find interesting... if you look at the OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you will find it pretty much
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                          Dean,

                          Something else you might find interesting... if you look at the
                          OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you will
                          find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
                          Meier for the Antietam game.

                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:38 PM
                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops


                          >
                          > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                          >
                          >> That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an
                          >> OOB
                          >> for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else
                          >> out
                          >> there.
                          >>
                          >
                          > No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed at
                          > the
                          > website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat by
                          > Carmen
                          > himself.
                          >
                          > Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so ago
                          > on the
                          > list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded the
                          > categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer
                          > game.
                          >
                          > Dean
                          >
                        • Dean Essig
                          ... Not surprising, popular book available for a game designer to copy down. Compare it to the Carmen OOB in Pierro s book, that should convince you. [Non-text
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                            On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:41 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                            > Something else you might find interesting... if you look at the
                            > OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you will
                            > find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
                            > Meier for the Antietam game.

                            Not surprising, popular book available for a game designer to copy down.

                            Compare it to the Carmen OOB in Pierro's book, that should convince you.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Dave
                            Gerry, having played this game years ago, the developers probably resorted to labeling troops crack or green based on their historical performance during
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                              Gerry, having played this game years ago, the developers probably
                              resorted to labeling troops "crack" or "green" based on their historical
                              performance during the actual battle, and the particular weight they
                              wanted to give to each unit. In all these games, the more experienced
                              units will rally faster, become less fatigued, be less apt to break and
                              run, and so on. They wanted to reflect this in the game. Couldn't very
                              well have the Iron Brigade lose cohesion at the first shots, even though
                              that could have historically happened based on their limited battle
                              experience. All wargames use this technique, afaik.

                              Dave McGowan

                              G E Mayers wrote:
                              >
                              > Dean,
                              >
                              > Something else you might find interesting... if you look at the
                              > OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you will
                              > find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
                              > Meier for the Antietam game.
                              >
                              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                              >
                              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                              > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@... <mailto:d.essig%40comcast.net>>
                              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                              > Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:38 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops
                              >
                              > >
                              > > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                              > >
                              > >> That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an
                              > >> OOB
                              > >> for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else
                              > >> out
                              > >> there.
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > > No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed at
                              > > the
                              > > website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat by
                              > > Carmen
                              > > himself.
                              > >
                              > > Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so ago
                              > > on the
                              > > list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded the
                              > > categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer
                              > > game.
                              > >
                              > > Dean
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                            • G E Mayers
                              I do not have Pierro s book here. If someone has a way (maybe a project for you, Brian???) to compare the two side by side, that would be an interesting
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                                I do not have Pierro's book here. If someone has a way (maybe a
                                project for you, Brian???) to compare the two side by side, that
                                would be an interesting project.....

                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
                                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:46 PM
                                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops


                                > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:41 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                >
                                >> Something else you might find interesting... if you look at
                                >> the
                                >> OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you
                                >> will
                                >> find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
                                >> Meier for the Antietam game.
                                >
                                > Not surprising, popular book available for a game designer to
                                > copy down.
                                >
                                > Compare it to the Carmen OOB in Pierro's book, that should
                                > convince you.
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                              • G E Mayers
                                Dear Dave, Green troops is an understandable quantification, since these would largely be the nine month and three year units hurriedly rushed to the AoP to
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                                  Dear Dave,

                                  "Green" troops is an understandable quantification, since these
                                  would largely be the nine month and three year units hurriedly
                                  rushed to the AoP to participate in the campaign. A good and
                                  historical example of this would be both the Twentieth Maine
                                  Volunteer Infantry and the Thirteenth New Jersey. A typical nine
                                  month unit would be either the One-hundred-twenty-eigth
                                  Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry or the One-hundred-thirtieth
                                  Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry.

                                  In the trained category, a unit such as the Seventeenth Michigan
                                  would be placed. It was a green unit but had spent much of the
                                  summer of 1862 in being properly drilled before being sent to
                                  join the main Eastern Federal army.

                                  The Iron Brigade did, from what I have read overall, acquit
                                  itself quite well during the fighting around the West
                                  Woods-Miller Cornfield sector earlier in the morning of September
                                  17th. That is still not to say that some members of the brigade
                                  did run or retreat, but their combat experience is better than
                                  that of the green units of the Twelfth Army Corps.

                                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
                                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:51 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops


                                  > Gerry, having played this game years ago, the developers
                                  > probably
                                  > resorted to labeling troops "crack" or "green" based on their
                                  > historical
                                  > performance during the actual battle, and the particular weight
                                  > they
                                  > wanted to give to each unit. In all these games, the more
                                  > experienced
                                  > units will rally faster, become less fatigued, be less apt to
                                  > break and
                                  > run, and so on. They wanted to reflect this in the game.
                                  > Couldn't very
                                  > well have the Iron Brigade lose cohesion at the first shots,
                                  > even though
                                  > that could have historically happened based on their limited
                                  > battle
                                  > experience. All wargames use this technique, afaik.
                                  >
                                  > Dave McGowan
                                  >
                                  > G E Mayers wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >> Dean,
                                  >>
                                  >> Something else you might find interesting... if you look at
                                  >> the
                                  >> OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you
                                  >> will
                                  >> find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
                                  >> Meier for the Antietam game.
                                  >>
                                  >> Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                  >> G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                  >>
                                  >> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
                                  >> even
                                  >> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                  >> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                  >> from
                                  >> the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                                  >> From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...
                                  >> <mailto:d.essig%40comcast.net>>
                                  >> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  >> <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                  >> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:38 PM
                                  >> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of
                                  >> troops
                                  >>
                                  >> >
                                  >> > On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                  >> >
                                  >> >> That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an
                                  >> >> OOB
                                  >> >> for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else
                                  >> >> out
                                  >> >> there.
                                  >> >>
                                  >> >
                                  >> > No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed
                                  >> > at
                                  >> > the
                                  >> > website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat
                                  >> > by
                                  >> > Carmen
                                  >> > himself.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so
                                  >> > ago
                                  >> > on the
                                  >> > list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded
                                  >> > the
                                  >> > categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer
                                  >> > game.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Dean
                                  >> >
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Dave
                                  Gerry, I don t disagree. But, for the folks playing the game, they would have a much better chance of having heard of the Iron Brigade rather than the 17 MI
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Gerry, I don't disagree. But, for the folks playing the game, they
                                    would have a much better chance of having heard of the Iron Brigade
                                    rather than the 17 MI or equivalent units. They would expect them to
                                    perform far better than other units based on their performance in this
                                    battle, plus Gettysburg and beyond (although that is inaccurate in this
                                    context). They have a more legendary character, you might say. Same
                                    with the Irish Brigade, I would think. Sort of artistic license,
                                    perhaps. But, Sid Meier was and is known for having as much or more
                                    historical accuracy in his games as anyone, while remaining playable.

                                    Dave

                                    G E Mayers wrote:
                                    > Dear Dave,
                                    >
                                    > "Green" troops is an understandable quantification, since these
                                    > would largely be the nine month and three year units hurriedly
                                    > rushed to the AoP to participate in the campaign. A good and
                                    > historical example of this would be both the Twentieth Maine
                                    > Volunteer Infantry and the Thirteenth New Jersey. A typical nine
                                    > month unit would be either the One-hundred-twenty-eigth
                                    > Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry or the One-hundred-thirtieth
                                    > Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry.
                                    >
                                    > In the trained category, a unit such as the Seventeenth Michigan
                                    > would be placed. It was a green unit but had spent much of the
                                    > summer of 1862 in being properly drilled before being sent to
                                    > join the main Eastern Federal army.
                                    >
                                    > The Iron Brigade did, from what I have read overall, acquit
                                    > itself quite well during the fighting around the West
                                    > Woods-Miller Cornfield sector earlier in the morning of September
                                    > 17th. That is still not to say that some members of the brigade
                                    > did run or retreat, but their combat experience is better than
                                    > that of the green units of the Twelfth Army Corps.
                                    >
                                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                    >
                                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
                                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:51 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >> Gerry, having played this game years ago, the developers
                                    >> probably
                                    >> resorted to labeling troops "crack" or "green" based on their
                                    >> historical
                                    >> performance during the actual battle, and the particular weight
                                    >> they
                                    >> wanted to give to each unit. In all these games, the more
                                    >> experienced
                                    >> units will rally faster, become less fatigued, be less apt to
                                    >> break and
                                    >> run, and so on. They wanted to reflect this in the game.
                                    >> Couldn't very
                                    >> well have the Iron Brigade lose cohesion at the first shots,
                                    >> even though
                                    >> that could have historically happened based on their limited
                                    >> battle
                                    >> experience. All wargames use this technique, afaik.
                                    >>
                                    >> Dave McGowan
                                    >>
                                    >> G E Mayers wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >>> Dean,
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Something else you might find interesting... if you look at
                                    >>> the
                                    >>> OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you
                                    >>> will
                                    >>> find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
                                    >>> Meier for the Antietam game.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                    >>> G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                    >>>
                                    >>> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
                                    >>> even
                                    >>> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                    >>> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                    >>> from
                                    >>> the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                    >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                    >>> From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...
                                    >>> <mailto:d.essig%40comcast.net>>
                                    >>> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    >>> <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                    >>> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:38 PM
                                    >>> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of
                                    >>> troops
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>>> That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an
                                    >>>>> OOB
                                    >>>>> for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else
                                    >>>>> out
                                    >>>>> there.
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>>>
                                    >>>> No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed
                                    >>>> at
                                    >>>> the
                                    >>>> website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat
                                    >>>> by
                                    >>>> Carmen
                                    >>>> himself.
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so
                                    >>>> ago
                                    >>>> on the
                                    >>>> list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded
                                    >>>> the
                                    >>>> categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer
                                    >>>> game.
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>> Dean
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>
                                    >> ------------------------------------
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Thomas Clemens
                                    Joining this late, have been reading letters to Carman from the NYPL all afternoon. My favorite quote so far today is Heysinger called Capt. Means of the
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Joining this late, have been reading letters to Carman from the NYPL all afternoon. My favorite quote so far today is Heysinger called Capt. Means of the Loudoun Rangers " a damned rebel deserter." Fun stuff.
                                      Dean is absolutely correct, Carman never designated any troops green, blue, or anything else. Remeber he was leading a green regiment there. Sid Meirs bought the typescript of the Carman manuscript from Joe to put in teh game, and the OOB went with it. They ignored all the stuff leading up to the Antietam, which I think is a very interesting portion of the mss. But it did help Joe fund his research & writing. Complicated asthe ANV OOB can be, and it is, the Union OOB portrayed by Carman is much more reflective of the army after the battle than before it. Likely the OOB will not be in Vol. I but when I put it in Vol. II I want to note when units actually joined the AOP. Those five cavalry brigades, as Larry F can tell you, are a joke. Up until the 17th Lee had more cavalry than McClellan.


                                      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                      Professor of History
                                      Hagerstown Community College


                                      >>> Dave <gewehr@...> 01/02/10 4:29 PM >>>
                                      Gerry, I don't disagree. But, for the folks playing the game, they
                                      would have a much better chance of having heard of the Iron Brigade
                                      rather than the 17 MI or equivalent units. They would expect them to
                                      perform far better than other units based on their performance in this
                                      battle, plus Gettysburg and beyond (although that is inaccurate in this
                                      context). They have a more legendary character, you might say. Same
                                      with the Irish Brigade, I would think. Sort of artistic license,
                                      perhaps. But, Sid Meier was and is known for having as much or more
                                      historical accuracy in his games as anyone, while remaining playable.

                                      Dave

                                      G E Mayers wrote:
                                      > Dear Dave,
                                      >
                                      > "Green" troops is an understandable quantification, since these
                                      > would largely be the nine month and three year units hurriedly
                                      > rushed to the AoP to participate in the campaign. A good and
                                      > historical example of this would be both the Twentieth Maine
                                      > Volunteer Infantry and the Thirteenth New Jersey. A typical nine
                                      > month unit would be either the One-hundred-twenty-eigth
                                      > Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry or the One-hundred-thirtieth
                                      > Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry.
                                      >
                                      > In the trained category, a unit such as the Seventeenth Michigan
                                      > would be placed. It was a green unit but had spent much of the
                                      > summer of 1862 in being properly drilled before being sent to
                                      > join the main Eastern Federal army.
                                      >
                                      > The Iron Brigade did, from what I have read overall, acquit
                                      > itself quite well during the fighting around the West
                                      > Woods-Miller Cornfield sector earlier in the morning of September
                                      > 17th. That is still not to say that some members of the brigade
                                      > did run or retreat, but their combat experience is better than
                                      > that of the green units of the Twelfth Army Corps.
                                      >
                                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                      >
                                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
                                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:51 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of troops
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >> Gerry, having played this game years ago, the developers
                                      >> probably
                                      >> resorted to labeling troops "crack" or "green" based on their
                                      >> historical
                                      >> performance during the actual battle, and the particular weight
                                      >> they
                                      >> wanted to give to each unit. In all these games, the more
                                      >> experienced
                                      >> units will rally faster, become less fatigued, be less apt to
                                      >> break and
                                      >> run, and so on. They wanted to reflect this in the game.
                                      >> Couldn't very
                                      >> well have the Iron Brigade lose cohesion at the first shots,
                                      >> even though
                                      >> that could have historically happened based on their limited
                                      >> battle
                                      >> experience. All wargames use this technique, afaik.
                                      >>
                                      >> Dave McGowan
                                      >>
                                      >> G E Mayers wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >>> Dean,
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Something else you might find interesting... if you look at
                                      >>> the
                                      >>> OOB list given at the back of the Murfin book, I think you
                                      >>> will
                                      >>> find it pretty much matches what is supposedly the work of Sid
                                      >>> Meier for the Antietam game.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                      >>> G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                      >>>
                                      >>> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
                                      >>> even
                                      >>> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                      >>> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                                      >>> from
                                      >>> the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                      >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                      >>> From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...
                                      >>> <mailto:d.essig%40comcast.net>>
                                      >>> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                      >>> <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                      >>> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:38 PM
                                      >>> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Carman and designations of
                                      >>> troops
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:33 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>> That very well might be true. However, Harsh did develop an
                                      >>>>> OOB
                                      >>>>> for ANVa which is probably more accurate than anything else
                                      >>>>> out
                                      >>>>> there.
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>> No argument with Harsh, my comments have only been directed
                                      >>>> at
                                      >>>> the
                                      >>>> website's OOB. Harsh's work is the gold standard, only beat
                                      >>>> by
                                      >>>> Carmen
                                      >>>> himself.
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Unless I'm mistaken, that same OOB showed up a year or so
                                      >>>> ago
                                      >>>> on the
                                      >>>> list, I think Tom Shay provided the link and we concluded
                                      >>>> the
                                      >>>> categories given were not from Carmen, but from the computer
                                      >>>> game.
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Dean
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>
                                      >> ------------------------------------
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >



                                      ------------------------------------


                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    • Dean Essig
                                      ... By trail and error (using the Supplemental OR) I came to the same conclusion. Once cut down to the units available and less the ones being used as provost,
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
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                                        On Jan 2, 2010, at 7:05 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                                        > Those five cavalry brigades, as Larry F can tell you, are a joke.

                                        By trail and error (using the Supplemental OR) I came to the same
                                        conclusion. Once cut down to the units available and less the ones
                                        being used as provost, you end up with essentially one brigade under
                                        Pleasonton. It is shown that way in my game.

                                        I think the OR/Carmen/everywhere 5-bde organization is the October
                                        one, not the one in place at the battle.

                                        Dean

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • eighth_conn_inf
                                        Trying to find numbers of troopers in their saddles isn t easy so I decided to discount the numbers based on numbers mentioned during the campaign. It has
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jan 2, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Trying to find numbers of troopers in their saddles isn't easy so I decided to discount the numbers based on numbers mentioned during the campaign.

                                          It has become clear to me why the cav on both sides simply could not do more than it was doing--it lacked the numbers. Both Lee and Mac expected more from their horsemen but I believed they understood why it couldn't do more. Still, I expected more from Stuart than Pleasonton.
                                          Larry



                                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dean Essig <d.essig@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > On Jan 2, 2010, at 7:05 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Those five cavalry brigades, as Larry F can tell you, are a joke.
                                          >
                                          > By trail and error (using the Supplemental OR) I came to the same
                                          > conclusion. Once cut down to the units available and less the ones
                                          > being used as provost, you end up with essentially one brigade under
                                          > Pleasonton. It is shown that way in my game.
                                          >
                                          > I think the OR/Carmen/everywhere 5-bde organization is the October
                                          > one, not the one in place at the battle.
                                          >
                                          > Dean
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • joseph_pierro
                                          Lol! This question seems to come up again every six months or so. Those color designmations, as have been explained by others here, were the addition of the
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jan 7, 2010
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                                            Lol! This question seems to come up again every six months or so.

                                            Those "color" designmations, as have been explained by others here, were the addition of the GAME DESIGNER. They do not come from Carman.

                                            This whole Table of Organization exercise provides a useful lesson in historical research. If you look in several sources and they all say the same thing, it's probably the correct answer, right?

                                            Well . . . not necessarily. It could be that everyone is simply QUOTING from one another -- or all from the same, initial, FLAWED source.

                                            The ToO in the back of Carman's manuscript -- as is the case with nearly EVERY ToO in EVERY Antietam book, is simply reprinted from the Antietam volume of the OR. (In fact, if you go through Carman's original manuscript, a few of the ToO pages therein aren't even in his handwriting. They're printed pages torn out of a copy of the OR itself.

                                            The ToOs in the OR are not contemporary documents (such as the reports and dispatches). Those were drafetd by the EDITORS decades after the fact. For a battle like Antietam, where the AoP was receiving units as fast as Halleck and the War Department could ship them to meet up with McCellan, the final composition is a bit difficult to pin down on a particular day. Federal cavalry units that arrived in the aftermath of the battle were "counted" as part of the AoP Order of Battle.

                                            --joseph pierro
                                          • joseph_pierro
                                            Actually, I should amend what I said before. Carman used the OR ToO as the BASIS of the one in his manuscript, but he did make a few corrections. The units are
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jan 7, 2010
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                                              Actually, I should amend what I said before.

                                              Carman used the OR ToO as the BASIS of the one in his manuscript, but he did make a few corrections. The units are nearly identical, but Carman did take exception to the ORs assigment of one or two regiments (and whether one or two CS batteries should be designated as part of an infantry brigade).

                                              In addition, in a few cases he gave different commanding officers for units than what the OR ToO had.

                                              So in sum, Carman's ToO is merely a slight tweaking of what was published in the OR. He didn't craft it from scratch. He started with what the OR provided and then made a few corrections whenever he came across something that contradicted what the OR stated, but he never made a comprehensive effort to "proofread" or "factcheck" the OR ToO. Carman's ToO is not THE definitive accounting (if in fact the truth of every unit -- particularly in the AoP -- can ever be known). If the OR ToO contained an error, there's a chance it was carried over into Carman's version. As is true of those in Murfin, Sears, etc. (Sears in particular states quite candidly that he took his ToO from the OR.)

                                              That, btw, is the standard practice in most every ToO you find in the back of a modern study of a Civil War battle. With rare exceptions (Harsh comes to mind) the author isn't starting from scratch; they're just copying straight from the OR.

                                              So just because your favorite book on a particular CW battle has a ToO that matches the OR ToO exactly, that DOESN'T necessarily mean that teh information is 100% accurate. It just means your book copied it from the OR.
                                            • G E Mayers
                                              Dear Jake, All that makes sense. But what does ToO mean? I gather it means the same as OOB but what do the initials stand for? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Jan 7, 2010
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                                                Dear Jake,

                                                All that makes sense. But what does ToO mean? I gather it means
                                                the same as OOB but what do the initials stand for?

                                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                                                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 3:22 PM
                                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Carman and designations of troops



                                                <snip>In addition, in a few cases he gave different commanding
                                                officers for units than what the OR ToO had.
                                                <snip>
                                              • joseph_pierro
                                                Table of Organization
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Jan 7, 2010
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Table of Organization

                                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Dear Jake,
                                                  >
                                                  > All that makes sense. But what does ToO mean? I gather it means
                                                  > the same as OOB but what do the initials stand for?
                                                  >
                                                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                                  >
                                                  > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                  > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                  > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                  > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                                                  > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 3:22 PM
                                                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Carman and designations of troops
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > <snip>In addition, in a few cases he gave different commanding
                                                  > officers for units than what the OR ToO had.
                                                  > <snip>
                                                  >
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