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Re: [TalkAntietam] Pleasonton's Division on the 18th

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  • Dean Essig
    Hi Everyone! I know there are several cavalry experts here, so I thought I d cast a line in the water and see if somebody knew the answer. On the evening of
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 30, 2009
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      Hi Everyone!

      I know there are several cavalry experts here, so I thought I'd cast
      a line in the water and see if somebody knew the answer.

      On the evening of the 17th, Pleasonton reports being relieved at the
      Middle Bridge area and puling back to Keedysville. Previously (on the
      16th) he described his location as "in front of Keedysville."

      Question is this: on the night of the 17th, did the division return
      to its encampment of that morning or a bit further back?

      A minor distinction, true, given the proximity of Keedysville to his
      encampments, but important for my purposes.

      Thanks in advance for any help!

      Dean
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Dean, Until a real expert replies, here is what I have: Carman says that on the evening of the 17th they returned to the bivouac near Keedysville, 320.
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 30, 2009
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        Dean,

        Until a real expert replies, here is what I have:

        Carman says that on the evening of the 17th they "returned to the bivouac near Keedysville," 320. Earlier he wrote that they were located "just west of Keedysville," 202; then "his "cavalry division bivouacked on the night of the sixteenth in the west suburbs of Keedysville," 317. Interestingly, Carman-Cope maps show the annotation that the cavalry's location is "approximate only." Crowninshield of the First Massachusetts Cavalry wrote that "The regiment bivouacked in a little piece of woods close on the main road, at a place called Keedysville," 76; later he recalled that "About dark (of the 17th) the cavalry was withdrawn, recrossing the Antietam Creek further to the westward, and it went into bivouac after dark in the old place at Keedysville," 80. Abner Hard of the Eighth Illinois Cavalry wrote that on "September 16th, we remained in the woods a mile or two in advance of Keedysville, and not more than that distance from the enemy's line," 184. He then wrote that that evening his "regiment was marched back half a mile and rested for the night," 186, implying that they did not return to camp the night of the 17th. Likely Pleasonton's cavalry stayed in the same bivouac between Keedysville and McClellan's headquarters at the Pry House from their arrival on the field on the 15th to the 19th when cavalry regiments bivouacked in Sharpsburg, 189, Crowninshield, 81. Perhaps McClellan wanted them to be close to his headquarters but also with quick access to the Keedysville-Williamsport and Sharpsburg-Boonsboro roads.

        Have you come up with anything else?

        Larry

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dean Essig <d.essig@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Everyone!
        >
        > I know there are several cavalry experts here, so I thought I'd cast
        > a line in the water and see if somebody knew the answer.
        >
        > On the evening of the 17th, Pleasonton reports being relieved at the
        > Middle Bridge area and puling back to Keedysville. Previously (on the
        > 16th) he described his location as "in front of Keedysville."
        >
        > Question is this: on the night of the 17th, did the division return
        > to its encampment of that morning or a bit further back?
        >
        > A minor distinction, true, given the proximity of Keedysville to his
        > encampments, but important for my purposes.
        >
        > Thanks in advance for any help!
        >
        > Dean
        >
      • Matt Reardon
        In Coffin s report he said he was ordered 200 yards in advance of the column during the IX Corps assault.    Did he move ahead and begin firing at the
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 30, 2009
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          In Coffin's report he said he was ordered "200 yards in advance of the column" during the IX Corps assault. 
           
          Did he move ahead and begin firing at the Confederate batteries on Cemetery Hill all alone? 
           
          Or was he supported by the skirmishers of the 100th Pennsylvania?
           
          Eventually they take up a position on the Otto Farm but the details are vague if he was alone or not. 
           
          I know the 15th SC were there as skirmishers, did they move forward after the 15th SC had been driven back?
           
          Thanks for any help you can provide,
          Matt




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • G E Mayers
          Dear Matt, I looked in the Carman battle manuscript for any mention of Coffin s section, Eighth Massachusetts. Here is what I found: Welsh had a greater
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 30, 2009
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            Dear Matt,

            I looked in the Carman battle manuscript for any mention of
            Coffin's section, Eighth Massachusetts. Here is what I found:

            "Welsh had a greater distance to move and over much more
            difficult ground. His brigade preceded by the 100th Pennsylvania
            as skirmishers and supported by Crook's Ohio brigade, went
            forward, the 45th Pennsylvania on the right, 46th New York in the
            center, and 8th Michigan on its left. The 45th Pennsylvania and
            46th New York, swept over the hill in their front, down into the
            ravine and then up the hill to the Otto buildings and apple
            orchard, the 45th Pennsylvania passing either side of the barn.
            On the left, the 8th Michigan, in starting, became involved with
            the 9th New York, a few files going with it, but, swinging to the
            right with its brigade the entire line after a short, sharp
            encounter, assisted by Crook, drove part of the 15th South
            Carolina of Drayton's Brigade, deployed as skirmishers, from a
            stone fence, beyond the ravine, and 130 yards from the Otto barn,
            and then descended into the ravine. Here the troops were somewhat
            crowded and the 45th Pennsylvania moved by the right flank out of
            the ravine, crossed the stone fence from which the 15th South
            Carolina skirmishers had been driven and the entire brigade
            became engaged with these and Jenkins' Brigade, which had taken
            position in the orchard on the slope of Cemetery hill, and with
            McMaster's command, which, driven back by Welsh and Poland had
            rallied in the orchard and occupied the stone house and stone
            mill on the road.

            "Meanwhile a section of Cook's Massachusetts battery under
            Lieutenant J.H. Coffin, was brought forward. The battery had
            crossed the Antietam with Willcox, four
            guns were halted in the road near the bridge, and two under
            Coffin, went forward up the road, Coffin says: "200 yards in
            advance of the column." He went from the
            road, to the left, up the Otto lane and taking position in the
            orchard, near the barn, opened with shell upon the artillery on
            Cemetery hill and upon Jenkins' Brigade and
            McMaster, in the orchard. As we have said in the preceding
            chapter, Squires' two rifled guns, after shelling Willcox's
            advance from the bridge, had been withdrawn,
            because out of ammunition, and Jenkins' Brigade, which was
            suffering (there?), then advanced "some 400 yards in an apple
            orchard, under a heavy fire of artillery and
            small arms." Colonel Joseph Walker, commanding the brigade, threw
            out the 1st, 5th and 6th South Carolina and engaged Christ on his
            left, and the Palmetto
            Sharpshooters and 2nd South Carolina Rifles in front and to the
            right to meet Welsh and "from this position," says Walker, "we
            continued to pour a destructive fire
            into the ranks of the enemy, a short range."

            "Garden's South Carolina battery of 12-pounders, which had been
            placed east of the road, just north of the stone house, in full
            view of the long range guns beyond the
            Antietam, came under their accurate and destructive fire that
            they could not return, but opened upon Willcox's infantry as it
            crossed the bridge and during its advance
            up the road, over the hill, and while ascending the elevation on
            which the battery was posted. Garden's ammunition had now run
            out; Lieutenant S.M. Pringle had been mortally wounded, several
            men wounded and many horses killed, one of his guns dismounted,
            the carriage being entirely destroyed, another rendered useless
            by the bursting of a shell, and the remaining guns were run down
            the hill by hand to a ravine in the rear, the disabled guns were
            then hauled off, the horses attached, and the entire battery
            entering the road, one gun with out wheels, but dragging the
            ground, went through Sharpsburg, barely escaping the men of
            Welsh's Brigade, who had now reached Avey's orchard, almost in
            its rear, and some of whom were running forward to the street
            down which it retired."

            From the above, it seems clear to me that Coffin's section was
            posted on the Otto farm not really anywhere near Cemetery Hill,
            but did open fire on Confederate artillery found there. From the
            above, it appears there is no tie in to the Fifteenth South
            Carolina contesting Coffin's advance or opposing it. It sounds to
            me as if the Fifteenth South Carolina, according to Carman, had
            already left that portion of the field when Coffin advanced his
            guns.

            I hope this helps?

            BTW, here is the relevant link to the Carman battle manuscript
            about the Sharpsburg fight:
            http://kperlotto3.home.comcast.net/~kperlotto3/carman/carman.html
            Just click on the link "Manuscript" in the left hand form of the
            webpage to download the pdf file of the Antietam Manuscript; you
            can then save to your computer as a pdf file.

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Matt Reardon" <mreardon1862@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:51 PM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Coffin's Section, 8th MA Battery


            In Coffin's report he said he was ordered "200 yards in advance
            of the column" during the IX Corps assault.

            Did he move ahead and begin firing at the Confederate batteries
            on Cemetery Hill all alone?

            Or was he supported by the skirmishers of the 100th Pennsylvania?

            Eventually they take up a position on the Otto Farm but the
            details are vague if he was alone or not.

            I know the 15th SC were there as skirmishers, did they move
            forward after the 15th SC had been driven back?

            Thanks for any help you can provide,
            Matt




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Dean Essig
            Thanks, Larry! That is a lot more detail than I had unearthed. Your suppositions seem correct to me. Reoccupying the original encampment (especially at night)
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 31, 2009
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              Thanks, Larry!

              That is a lot more detail than I had unearthed. Your suppositions
              seem correct to me.

              Reoccupying the original encampment (especially at night) makes a
              great deal of sense while going elsewhere "just because" does not,
              especially since they had no specific orders for the 18th.

              If McClellan had some vague idea of a mission for the them on the
              18th that was not written, it would not seem that camping a half a
              mile further NW would prepare them for anything beyond what they
              could do in their old camp.

              That's a great help.

              I have an additional question regarding the movement of Morell after
              being relieved and sent to support IX Corps, but have to work up the
              details so it makes sense. Kicking around the dusty corners of the
              history just after the battle.

              Happy New Year everyone!

              Dean

              On Dec 30, 2009, at 4:23 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:

              >
              >
              > Dean,
              >
              > Until a real expert replies, here is what I have:
              >
              > Carman says that on the evening of the 17th they "returned to the
              > bivouac near Keedysville," 320. Earlier he wrote that they were
              > located "just west of Keedysville," 202; then "his "cavalry
              > division bivouacked on the night of the sixteenth in the west
              > suburbs of Keedysville," 317. Interestingly, Carman-Cope maps show
              > the annotation that the cavalry's location is "approximate only."
              > Crowninshield of the First Massachusetts Cavalry wrote that "The
              > regiment bivouacked in a little piece of woods close on the main
              > road, at a place called Keedysville," 76; later he recalled that
              > "About dark (of the 17th) the cavalry was withdrawn, recrossing the
              > Antietam Creek further to the westward, and it went into bivouac
              > after dark in the old place at Keedysville," 80. Abner Hard of the
              > Eighth Illinois Cavalry wrote that on "September 16th, we remained
              > in the woods a mile or two in advance of Keedysville, and not more
              > than that distance from the enemy's line," 184. He then wrote that
              > that evening his "regiment was marched back half a mile and rested
              > for the night," 186, implying that they did not return to camp the
              > night of the 17th. Likely Pleasonton's cavalry stayed in the same
              > bivouac between Keedysville and McClellan's headquarters at the Pry
              > House from their arrival on the field on the 15th to the 19th when
              > cavalry regiments bivouacked in Sharpsburg, 189, Crowninshield, 81.
              > Perhaps McClellan wanted them to be close to his headquarters but
              > also with quick access to the Keedysville-Williamsport and
              > Sharpsburg-Boonsboro roads.
              >
              > Have you come up with anything else?
              >
              > Larry
              >
            • eighth_conn_inf
              Matt, You are fortunate to have a relative in that unit. Hopefully you have some of his letters or other of his items?
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 1, 2010
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                Matt,

                You are fortunate to have a relative in that unit. Hopefully you have some of his letters or other of his items?

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Matt Reardon <mreardon1862@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Larry,
                >  
                > Oh yes it is.  Not only that but my g-g-g grandfather Michael Farley, served in Company G.
                >  
                > Matt
                > --- On Tue, 12/29/09, eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Civil War History Journal
                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 1:02 PM
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                > Matt,
                >
                > I lived the first 40 years of my life in Conn. plus the 8th did the best fighting of any Conn. unit at my favorite battlefield, Antietam, in the most important battle, IMO, of the ACW.
                >
                > If (and when) I finish the book I'm writing now, I'd like to do a bio of J.K.F. Mansfield or John Sedgwick or a comprehensive history of Conn. units during the Maryland Campaign. I did a brief overview a while ago of Conn. units and the two Conn. generals which is posted on MHO.
                >
                > Is the 8th Conn. one of your favorite units?
                >
                > Larry
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Matt Reardon <mreardon1862@ ...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Larry,
                > >  
                > > What's your connection to the 8th CT?
                > >  
                > > Matt
                > >
                > > --- On Tue, 12/29/09, eighth_conn_ inf <eighth_conn_ inf@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > From: eighth_conn_ inf <eighth_conn_ inf@>
                > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Civil War History Journal
                > > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                > > Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 12:23 PM
                > >
                > >
                > >  
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > I live on the east side of Cacapon Mountain just west of the break in Warm Spring Ridge at Rock Gap at about 1210' elevation. It is easy to see on Google Earth.
                > >
                > > I'm not now concentrating on the CW in Morgan County as I'm trying to finish my Maryland Campaign cav. book but Steve French is the expert on the CW in the panhandle of WV and adjacent areas. If you have specific questions, he may be able to help.
                > >
                > > Please PM me for his e-mail and for any journals in which you have interest.
                > >
                > > Larry
                > >
                > > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Robert Moore <cenantua@ .> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I'm interested.. . what are you reading that deals with Cacapon? I'm rather focused on that area lately with my work on Cole's Cavalry.
                > > >
                > > > Robert Moore
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > > > From: G E Mayers <gerry1952@ ..>
                > > > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                > > > Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 11:35:02 AM
                > > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Civil War History Journal
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Where is Cacapon Mtns?
                > > >
                > > > Recd a bunch of Civil War books for Christmas.
                > > >
                > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                > > >
                > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@yahoo. com>
                > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:33 AM
                > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Civil War History Journal
                > > >
                > > > I have a couple dozen duplicate older Civil War History Journals.
                > > > I would like to trade for a few issues I still need to complete
                > > > my collection: volumes 49, 50, and 51, all four issues for each
                > > > volume.
                > > >
                > > > I could also trade for Blue & Gray issues I need or even CWTI.
                > > >
                > > > If you have any interest in obtaining older CWH Journals please
                > > > contact me privately:
                > > >
                > > > killsour@hotmail. com
                > > >
                > > > I hope all had happy holidays; here we had a 20" snowfall on the
                > > > side of Cacapon Mountain but plowed and shoveled our way out..
                > > >
                > > > Larry
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Reply to sender | Reply to group Messages in this topic (2)
                > > > Recent Activity:
                > > > Visit Your Group Start a New Topic
                > > >
                > > > MARKETPLACE
                > > > Going Green: Your Yahoo! Groups resource for green living
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                > > > Parenting Zone: Find useful resources for a happy, healthy family and home
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                > > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
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                > >
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                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >
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                >
              • Matt Reardon
                Larry,   I have nothing.  I ve been trying to find a picture of him for quite some time now.  So far no luck. I did find him mentioned in one letter written
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 1, 2010
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                  Larry,
                   
                  I have nothing.  I've been trying to find a picture of him for quite some time now.  So far no luck. I did find him mentioned in one letter written by Charles Coit of Co. B.  It mentioned him and a bunch of new recruits when they first arrived, when the 8th was at Fredericksburg in August of '62, a few weeks before Antietam.  Antietam was his first actual battle.
                   
                  Matt
                   


                  --- On Fri, 1/1/10, eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:


                  From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Civil War History Journal
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 8:40 PM


                   



                  Matt,

                  You are fortunate to have a relative in that unit. Hopefully you have some of his letters or other of his items?

                  --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Matt Reardon <mreardon1862@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Larry,
                  >  
                  > Oh yes it is.  Not only that but my g-g-g grandfather Michael Farley, served in Company G.
                  >  
                  > Matt
                  > --- On Tue, 12/29/09, eighth_conn_ inf <eighth_conn_ inf@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: eighth_conn_ inf <eighth_conn_ inf@...>
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Civil War History Journal
                  > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                  > Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 1:02 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Matt,
                  >
                  > I lived the first 40 years of my life in Conn. plus the 8th did the best fighting of any Conn. unit at my favorite battlefield, Antietam, in the most important battle, IMO, of the ACW.
                  >
                  > If (and when) I finish the book I'm writing now, I'd like to do a bio of J.K.F. Mansfield or John Sedgwick or a comprehensive history of Conn. units during the Maryland Campaign. I did a brief overview a while ago of Conn. units and the two Conn. generals which is posted on MHO.
                  >
                  > Is the 8th Conn. one of your favorite units?
                  >
                  > Larry
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Matt Reardon <mreardon1862@ ...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Larry,
                  > >  
                  > > What's your connection to the 8th CT?
                  > >  
                  > > Matt
                  > >
                  > > --- On Tue, 12/29/09, eighth_conn_ inf <eighth_conn_ inf@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > From: eighth_conn_ inf <eighth_conn_ inf@>
                  > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Civil War History Journal
                  > > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                  > > Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 12:23 PM
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >  
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I live on the east side of Cacapon Mountain just west of the break in Warm Spring Ridge at Rock Gap at about 1210' elevation. It is easy to see on Google Earth.
                  > >
                  > > I'm not now concentrating on the CW in Morgan County as I'm trying to finish my Maryland Campaign cav. book but Steve French is the expert on the CW in the panhandle of WV and adjacent areas. If you have specific questions, he may be able to help.
                  > >
                  > > Please PM me for his e-mail and for any journals in which you have interest.
                  > >
                  > > Larry
                  > >
                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Robert Moore <cenantua@ .> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm interested.. . what are you reading that deals with Cacapon? I'm rather focused on that area lately with my work on Cole's Cavalry.
                  > > >
                  > > > Robert Moore
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  > > > From: G E Mayers <gerry1952@ ..>
                  > > > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                  > > > Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 11:35:02 AM
                  > > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Civil War History Journal
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Where is Cacapon Mtns?
                  > > >
                  > > > Recd a bunch of Civil War books for Christmas.
                  > > >
                  > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  > > >
                  > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@yahoo. com>
                  > > > To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
                  > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:33 AM
                  > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Civil War History Journal
                  > > >
                  > > > I have a couple dozen duplicate older Civil War History Journals.
                  > > > I would like to trade for a few issues I still need to complete
                  > > > my collection: volumes 49, 50, and 51, all four issues for each
                  > > > volume.
                  > > >
                  > > > I could also trade for Blue & Gray issues I need or even CWTI.
                  > > >
                  > > > If you have any interest in obtaining older CWH Journals please
                  > > > contact me privately:
                  > > >
                  > > > killsour@hotmail. com
                  > > >
                  > > > I hope all had happy holidays; here we had a 20" snowfall on the
                  > > > side of Cacapon Mountain but plowed and shoveled our way out..
                  > > >
                  > > > Larry
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Reply to sender | Reply to group Messages in this topic (2)
                  > > > Recent Activity:
                  > > > Visit Your Group Start a New Topic
                  > > >
                  > > > MARKETPLACE
                  > > > Going Green: Your Yahoo! Groups resource for green living
                  > > >
                  > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  > > >
                  > > > Parenting Zone: Find useful resources for a happy, healthy family and home
                  > > >
                  > > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
                  > > > .
                  > > >
                  > > > __,_.._,___
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >











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