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River crossing

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  • david lutton
    I was on the 3:30 crossing this Saturday and was wondering if the 2:30 tour had any problems in finding the actual ford. I remember last year after a little
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 21 4:51 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      I was on the 3:30 crossing this Saturday and was wondering if the 2:30 tour had any problems in finding the actual ford.
      I remember last year after a little searching we found a very smooth riverbed to cross, not so on my tour.
      Tom McGrath more than made up for this however by conducting a very good tour!

      David Lutton
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Thomas Clemens
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 12:40 PM
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Capture of Longstreet's ammunitiontrain, 9/15


      Just reading this now. Thanks for coming, it was great to have you along.

      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College

      >>> Jim Rosebrock <pointsalines@...> 09/19/09 12:18 AM >>>
      Looking forward to the tour tomorrow. Will see you at the 2:30 trek
      Regards
      Jim

      ________________________________
      From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...>
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:11:36 PM
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Capture of Longstreet's ammunition train, 9/15

      The 2:30 tour. Just talked to Tom McGrath tonight, he is looking forward to the tour too. Joe Harsh and I could never figure out the 17 mile story. I think we got 14 or so, but it certainly is not 17.

      >>> "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@yahoo. com> 09/18/09 4:16 PM >>>
      Thanks Tom for that reminder!

      Here is the correction: "Lt. Col. Edward Porter Alexander, Chief of Ordnance for the Army of Northern Virginia.... " My HF escape chapter is nearly completion.

      Alexander said about this incident in his other book that he and his wagons had to return 13 miles to HF which certainly supports Jim Rosebrock's measurements- -~13 vice Hill's 17.

      BTW, for tomorrow's fording, are you leading the 2:30 or 3:30 crossing?

      Larry

      --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@.. .> wrote:
      >
      > Larry,
      > Great posts lately, just one minor point. Alexander was an Ordnance officer at this time, not yet commanding any artillery.
      > Tom
      >
      > >>> "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@...> 09/18/09 9:33 AM >>>
      > As Dean states and as Brian has written on AotW, the loss of the ammo for the ANV artillery was important.
      >
      > The practical effect of the loss of much ammunition for Lee's artillery meant that there was not ample ammunition for Rebel guns during the battle on the 17th. Edward Porter Alexander in charge of Longstreet's artillery wrote that "when I arrived at Shepherdstown, about noon on the 16th, with my ordnance train, and rode across the river and reported to Lee, I was ordered to collect all empty wagons and go to Harper's Ferry and take charge of the surrendered ammunition; bringing back to Sharpsburg all suiting our calibres, and sending to Winchester whatever we could not use in the field. The prospect of this addition to our supply was grateful, for the expenditures had been something, at Boonsboro, Crampton's Gap, and Harper's Ferry; and the loss of the 45 loads, burned by the [enemy] cavalry, had been a severe blow at such a distance from our base at Culpeper. I was soon on my way back, and encamped that night with many wagons not far from Harper's
      Ferry." (Alexander, Military Memoirs of A Confederate, 242.)
      >
      > Larry F.
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Dean Essig <d.essig@> wrote:
      > >
      > > On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:41 AM, troyacool@ wrote:
      > >
      > > > Is there any idea of the amount of ordinance lost or how it
      > > > effected the campaign or SOP.
      > >
      > >
      > > Given the paucity of ammo in the army reserve trains (using the 30
      > > Jun 63 ANVa ordnance receipts in Brown's Retreat from Gettysburg as a
      > > guide), Longstreet's trains would have represented somewhere between
      > > 33 and 50% of the army's artillery reserve ammunition.
      > >
      > > Far less than that percentage when it comes to small arms ammo, as it
      > > was more distributed into divisional trains.
      > >
      > > Artillery ammunition was frightfully limited for the ANVa at
      > > Sharpsburg (and that doesn't even address the organizational
      > > confusion at the army train park at the Grove Farm).
      > >
      > > Dean
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Harry Smeltzer
      I was on the 2:30 tour, and I m pretty sure we were not on the smooth ford described from last years tour. I could be wrong, though. Harry ... From: david
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 21 5:14 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        I was on the 2:30 tour, and I'm pretty sure we were not on the smooth ford described from last years tour. I could be wrong, though.

        Harry
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: david lutton
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 7:51 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] River crossing


        I was on the 3:30 crossing this Saturday and was wondering if the 2:30 tour had any problems in finding the actual ford.
        I remember last year after a little searching we found a very smooth riverbed to cross, not so on my tour.
        Tom McGrath more than made up for this however by conducting a very good tour!

        David Lutton
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Thomas Clemens
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 12:40 PM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Capture of Longstreet's ammunitiontrain, 9/15

        Just reading this now. Thanks for coming, it was great to have you along.

        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College

        >>> Jim Rosebrock <pointsalines@...> 09/19/09 12:18 AM >>>
        Looking forward to the tour tomorrow. Will see you at the 2:30 trek
        Regards
        Jim

        ________________________________
        From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...>
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:11:36 PM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Capture of Longstreet's ammunition train, 9/15

        The 2:30 tour. Just talked to Tom McGrath tonight, he is looking forward to the tour too. Joe Harsh and I could never figure out the 17 mile story. I think we got 14 or so, but it certainly is not 17.

        >>> "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@yahoo. com> 09/18/09 4:16 PM >>>
        Thanks Tom for that reminder!

        Here is the correction: "Lt. Col. Edward Porter Alexander, Chief of Ordnance for the Army of Northern Virginia.... " My HF escape chapter is nearly completion.

        Alexander said about this incident in his other book that he and his wagons had to return 13 miles to HF which certainly supports Jim Rosebrock's measurements- -~13 vice Hill's 17.

        BTW, for tomorrow's fording, are you leading the 2:30 or 3:30 crossing?

        Larry

        --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@.. .> wrote:
        >
        > Larry,
        > Great posts lately, just one minor point. Alexander was an Ordnance officer at this time, not yet commanding any artillery.
        > Tom
        >
        > >>> "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@...> 09/18/09 9:33 AM >>>
        > As Dean states and as Brian has written on AotW, the loss of the ammo for the ANV artillery was important.
        >
        > The practical effect of the loss of much ammunition for Lee's artillery meant that there was not ample ammunition for Rebel guns during the battle on the 17th. Edward Porter Alexander in charge of Longstreet's artillery wrote that "when I arrived at Shepherdstown, about noon on the 16th, with my ordnance train, and rode across the river and reported to Lee, I was ordered to collect all empty wagons and go to Harper's Ferry and take charge of the surrendered ammunition; bringing back to Sharpsburg all suiting our calibres, and sending to Winchester whatever we could not use in the field. The prospect of this addition to our supply was grateful, for the expenditures had been something, at Boonsboro, Crampton's Gap, and Harper's Ferry; and the loss of the 45 loads, burned by the [enemy] cavalry, had been a severe blow at such a distance from our base at Culpeper. I was soon on my way back, and encamped that night with many wagons not far from Harper's
        Ferry." (Alexander, Military Memoirs of A Confederate, 242.)
        >
        > Larry F.
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Dean Essig <d.essig@> wrote:
        > >
        > > On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:41 AM, troyacool@ wrote:
        > >
        > > > Is there any idea of the amount of ordinance lost or how it
        > > > effected the campaign or SOP.
        > >
        > >
        > > Given the paucity of ammo in the army reserve trains (using the 30
        > > Jun 63 ANVa ordnance receipts in Brown's Retreat from Gettysburg as a
        > > guide), Longstreet's trains would have represented somewhere between
        > > 33 and 50% of the army's artillery reserve ammunition.
        > >
        > > Far less than that percentage when it comes to small arms ammo, as it
        > > was more distributed into divisional trains.
        > >
        > > Artillery ammunition was frightfully limited for the ANVa at
        > > Sharpsburg (and that doesn't even address the organizational
        > > confusion at the army train park at the Grove Farm).
        > >
        > > Dean
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Thomas Clemens
        I don t think we were at the right place either, although I d swear we went in opposite the place where we came out last year. I ll need to do better recon
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 21 7:20 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          I don't think we were at the right place either, although I'd swear we went in opposite the place where we came out last year. I'll need to do better recon next year.

          >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 09/21/09 8:14 PM >>>
          I was on the 2:30 tour, and I'm pretty sure we were not on the smooth ford described from last years tour. I could be wrong, though.

          Harry
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: david lutton
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 7:51 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] River crossing


          I was on the 3:30 crossing this Saturday and was wondering if the 2:30 tour had any problems in finding the actual ford.
          I remember last year after a little searching we found a very smooth riverbed to cross, not so on my tour.
          Tom McGrath more than made up for this however by conducting a very good tour!

          David Lutton
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Thomas Clemens
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 12:40 PM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Capture of Longstreet's ammunitiontrain, 9/15

          Just reading this now. Thanks for coming, it was great to have you along.

          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College

          >>> Jim Rosebrock <pointsalines@...> 09/19/09 12:18 AM >>>
          Looking forward to the tour tomorrow. Will see you at the 2:30 trek
          Regards
          Jim

          ________________________________
          From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...>
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:11:36 PM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Capture of Longstreet's ammunition train, 9/15

          The 2:30 tour. Just talked to Tom McGrath tonight, he is looking forward to the tour too. Joe Harsh and I could never figure out the 17 mile story. I think we got 14 or so, but it certainly is not 17.

          >>> "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@yahoo. com> 09/18/09 4:16 PM >>>
          Thanks Tom for that reminder!

          Here is the correction: "Lt. Col. Edward Porter Alexander, Chief of Ordnance for the Army of Northern Virginia.... " My HF escape chapter is nearly completion.

          Alexander said about this incident in his other book that he and his wagons had to return 13 miles to HF which certainly supports Jim Rosebrock's measurements- -~13 vice Hill's 17.

          BTW, for tomorrow's fording, are you leading the 2:30 or 3:30 crossing?

          Larry

          --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@.. .> wrote:
          >
          > Larry,
          > Great posts lately, just one minor point. Alexander was an Ordnance officer at this time, not yet commanding any artillery.
          > Tom
          >
          > >>> "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@...> 09/18/09 9:33 AM >>>
          > As Dean states and as Brian has written on AotW, the loss of the ammo for the ANV artillery was important.
          >
          > The practical effect of the loss of much ammunition for Lee's artillery meant that there was not ample ammunition for Rebel guns during the battle on the 17th. Edward Porter Alexander in charge of Longstreet's artillery wrote that "when I arrived at Shepherdstown, about noon on the 16th, with my ordnance train, and rode across the river and reported to Lee, I was ordered to collect all empty wagons and go to Harper's Ferry and take charge of the surrendered ammunition; bringing back to Sharpsburg all suiting our calibres, and sending to Winchester whatever we could not use in the field. The prospect of this addition to our supply was grateful, for the expenditures had been something, at Boonsboro, Crampton's Gap, and Harper's Ferry; and the loss of the 45 loads, burned by the [enemy] cavalry, had been a severe blow at such a distance from our base at Culpeper. I was soon on my way back, and encamped that night with many wagons not far from Harper's
          Ferry." (Alexander, Military Memoirs of A Confederate, 242.)
          >
          > Larry F.
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Dean Essig <d.essig@> wrote:
          > >
          > > On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:41 AM, troyacool@ wrote:
          > >
          > > > Is there any idea of the amount of ordinance lost or how it
          > > > effected the campaign or SOP.
          > >
          > >
          > > Given the paucity of ammo in the army reserve trains (using the 30
          > > Jun 63 ANVa ordnance receipts in Brown's Retreat from Gettysburg as a
          > > guide), Longstreet's trains would have represented somewhere between
          > > 33 and 50% of the army's artillery reserve ammunition.
          > >
          > > Far less than that percentage when it comes to small arms ammo, as it
          > > was more distributed into divisional trains.
          > >
          > > Artillery ammunition was frightfully limited for the ANVa at
          > > Sharpsburg (and that doesn't even address the organizational
          > > confusion at the army train park at the Grove Farm).
          > >
          > > Dean
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jim Rosebrock
          Non the less great fun Tom. Thanks for leading us around yesterday. Regards Tom ________________________________ From: Thomas Clemens
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 21 8:02 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Non the less great fun Tom. Thanks for leading us around yesterday.
            Regards Tom




            ________________________________
            From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...>
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:20:26 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] River crossing


            I don't think we were at the right place either, although I'd swear we went in opposite the place where we came out last year. I'll need to do better recon next year.

            >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast. net> 09/21/09 8:14 PM >>>
            I was on the 2:30 tour, and I'm pretty sure we were not on the smooth ford described from last years tour. I could be wrong, though.

            Harry
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: david lutton
            To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
            Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 7:51 PM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] River crossing

            I was on the 3:30 crossing this Saturday and was wondering if the 2:30 tour had any problems in finding the actual ford.
            I remember last year after a little searching we found a very smooth riverbed to cross, not so on my tour.
            Tom McGrath more than made up for this however by conducting a very good tour!

            David Lutton
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Thomas Clemens
            To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
            Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 12:40 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Capture of Longstreet's ammunitiontrain, 9/15

            Just reading this now. Thanks for coming, it was great to have you along.

            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College

            >>> Jim Rosebrock <pointsalines@ yahoo.com> 09/19/09 12:18 AM >>>
            Looking forward to the tour tomorrow. Will see you at the 2:30 trek
            Regards
            Jim

            ____________ _________ _________ __
            From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstown cc.edu>
            To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
            Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:11:36 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Capture of Longstreet's ammunition train, 9/15

            The 2:30 tour. Just talked to Tom McGrath tonight, he is looking forward to the tour too. Joe Harsh and I could never figure out the 17 mile story. I think we got 14 or so, but it certainly is not 17.

            >>> "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@yahoo. com> 09/18/09 4:16 PM >>>
            Thanks Tom for that reminder!

            Here is the correction: "Lt. Col. Edward Porter Alexander, Chief of Ordnance for the Army of Northern Virginia.... " My HF escape chapter is nearly completion.

            Alexander said about this incident in his other book that he and his wagons had to return 13 miles to HF which certainly supports Jim Rosebrock's measurements- -~13 vice Hill's 17.

            BTW, for tomorrow's fording, are you leading the 2:30 or 3:30 crossing?

            Larry

            --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@.. .> wrote:
            >
            > Larry,
            > Great posts lately, just one minor point. Alexander was an Ordnance officer at this time, not yet commanding any artillery.
            > Tom
            >
            > >>> "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@...> 09/18/09 9:33 AM >>>
            > As Dean states and as Brian has written on AotW, the loss of the ammo for the ANV artillery was important.
            >
            > The practical effect of the loss of much ammunition for Lee's artillery meant that there was not ample ammunition for Rebel guns during the battle on the 17th. Edward Porter Alexander in charge of Longstreet's artillery wrote that "when I arrived at Shepherdstown, about noon on the 16th, with my ordnance train, and rode across the river and reported to Lee, I was ordered to collect all empty wagons and go to Harper's Ferry and take charge of the surrendered ammunition; bringing back to Sharpsburg all suiting our calibres, and sending to Winchester whatever we could not use in the field. The prospect of this addition to our supply was grateful, for the expenditures had been something, at Boonsboro, Crampton's Gap, and Harper's Ferry; and the loss of the 45 loads, burned by the [enemy] cavalry, had been a severe blow at such a distance from our base at Culpeper. I was soon on my way back, and encamped that night with many wagons not far from Harper's
            Ferry." (Alexander, Military Memoirs of A Confederate, 242.)
            >
            > Larry F.
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Dean Essig <d.essig@> wrote:
            > >
            > > On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:41 AM, troyacool@ wrote:
            > >
            > > > Is there any idea of the amount of ordinance lost or how it
            > > > effected the campaign or SOP.
            > >
            > >
            > > Given the paucity of ammo in the army reserve trains (using the 30
            > > Jun 63 ANVa ordnance receipts in Brown's Retreat from Gettysburg as a
            > > guide), Longstreet's trains would have represented somewhere between
            > > 33 and 50% of the army's artillery reserve ammunition.
            > >
            > > Far less than that percentage when it comes to small arms ammo, as it
            > > was more distributed into divisional trains.
            > >
            > > Artillery ammunition was frightfully limited for the ANVa at
            > > Sharpsburg (and that doesn't even address the organizational
            > > confusion at the army train park at the Grove Farm).
            > >
            > > Dean
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • david lutton
            Jim, I totally agree. I think a great time was had by all. I hope this tour will become an annual event, and perhaps by next year we will have some positive
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 22 5:53 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Jim,

              I totally agree. I think a great time was had by all.
              I hope this tour will become an annual event, and perhaps by next year we will have some positive news on the battlefield's fate. The 118th Pa. along with the other units who fought there should be remembered by more than a wayside marker.


              David
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Jim Rosebrock
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 11:02 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] River crossing


              Non the less great fun Tom. Thanks for leading us around yesterday.
              Regards Tom

              ________________________________
              From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...>
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:20:26 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] River crossing

              I don't think we were at the right place either, although I'd swear we went in opposite the place where we came out last year. I'll need to do better recon next year.

              >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast. net> 09/21/09 8:14 PM >>>
              I was on the 2:30 tour, and I'm pretty sure we were not on the smooth ford described from last years tour. I could be wrong, though.

              Harry
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: david lutton
              To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 7:51 PM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] River crossing

              I was on the 3:30 crossing this Saturday and was wondering if the 2:30 tour had any problems in finding the actual ford.
              I remember last year after a little searching we found a very smooth riverbed to cross, not so on my tour.
              Tom McGrath more than made up for this however by conducting a very good tour!

              David Lutton
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Thomas Clemens
              To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 12:40 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Capture of Longstreet's ammunitiontrain, 9/15

              Just reading this now. Thanks for coming, it was great to have you along.

              Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              Professor of History
              Hagerstown Community College

              >>> Jim Rosebrock <pointsalines@ yahoo.com> 09/19/09 12:18 AM >>>
              Looking forward to the tour tomorrow. Will see you at the 2:30 trek
              Regards
              Jim

              ____________ _________ _________ __
              From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstown cc.edu>
              To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:11:36 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Capture of Longstreet's ammunition train, 9/15

              The 2:30 tour. Just talked to Tom McGrath tonight, he is looking forward to the tour too. Joe Harsh and I could never figure out the 17 mile story. I think we got 14 or so, but it certainly is not 17.

              >>> "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@yahoo. com> 09/18/09 4:16 PM >>>
              Thanks Tom for that reminder!

              Here is the correction: "Lt. Col. Edward Porter Alexander, Chief of Ordnance for the Army of Northern Virginia.... " My HF escape chapter is nearly completion.

              Alexander said about this incident in his other book that he and his wagons had to return 13 miles to HF which certainly supports Jim Rosebrock's measurements- -~13 vice Hill's 17.

              BTW, for tomorrow's fording, are you leading the 2:30 or 3:30 crossing?

              Larry

              --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > Larry,
              > Great posts lately, just one minor point. Alexander was an Ordnance officer at this time, not yet commanding any artillery.
              > Tom
              >
              > >>> "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@...> 09/18/09 9:33 AM >>>
              > As Dean states and as Brian has written on AotW, the loss of the ammo for the ANV artillery was important.
              >
              > The practical effect of the loss of much ammunition for Lee's artillery meant that there was not ample ammunition for Rebel guns during the battle on the 17th. Edward Porter Alexander in charge of Longstreet's artillery wrote that "when I arrived at Shepherdstown, about noon on the 16th, with my ordnance train, and rode across the river and reported to Lee, I was ordered to collect all empty wagons and go to Harper's Ferry and take charge of the surrendered ammunition; bringing back to Sharpsburg all suiting our calibres, and sending to Winchester whatever we could not use in the field. The prospect of this addition to our supply was grateful, for the expenditures had been something, at Boonsboro, Crampton's Gap, and Harper's Ferry; and the loss of the 45 loads, burned by the [enemy] cavalry, had been a severe blow at such a distance from our base at Culpeper. I was soon on my way back, and encamped that night with many wagons not far from Harper's
              Ferry." (Alexander, Military Memoirs of A Confederate, 242.)
              >
              > Larry F.
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Dean Essig <d.essig@> wrote:
              > >
              > > On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:41 AM, troyacool@ wrote:
              > >
              > > > Is there any idea of the amount of ordinance lost or how it
              > > > effected the campaign or SOP.
              > >
              > >
              > > Given the paucity of ammo in the army reserve trains (using the 30
              > > Jun 63 ANVa ordnance receipts in Brown's Retreat from Gettysburg as a
              > > guide), Longstreet's trains would have represented somewhere between
              > > 33 and 50% of the army's artillery reserve ammunition.
              > >
              > > Far less than that percentage when it comes to small arms ammo, as it
              > > was more distributed into divisional trains.
              > >
              > > Artillery ammunition was frightfully limited for the ANVa at
              > > Sharpsburg (and that doesn't even address the organizational
              > > confusion at the army train park at the Grove Farm).
              > >
              > > Dean
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Thomas Clemens
              I think it will Dave, and thanks for coming. Sorry I missed you and thanks for the kind words. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History Hagerstown
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 22 7:48 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                I think it will Dave, and thanks for coming. Sorry I missed you and thanks for the kind words.

                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College


                >>> "david lutton" <dunkerch@...> 09/22/09 8:53 PM >>>
                Jim,

                I totally agree. I think a great time was had by all.
                I hope this tour will become an annual event, and perhaps by next year we will have some positive news on the battlefield's fate. The 118th Pa. along with the other units who fought there should be remembered by more than a wayside marker.


                David
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Jim Rosebrock
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 11:02 PM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] River crossing


                Non the less great fun Tom. Thanks for leading us around yesterday.
                Regards Tom

                ________________________________
                From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...>
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:20:26 PM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] River crossing

                I don't think we were at the right place either, although I'd swear we went in opposite the place where we came out last year. I'll need to do better recon next year.

                >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@comcast. net> 09/21/09 8:14 PM >>>
                I was on the 2:30 tour, and I'm pretty sure we were not on the smooth ford described from last years tour. I could be wrong, though.

                Harry
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: david lutton
                To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 7:51 PM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] River crossing

                I was on the 3:30 crossing this Saturday and was wondering if the 2:30 tour had any problems in finding the actual ford.
                I remember last year after a little searching we found a very smooth riverbed to cross, not so on my tour.
                Tom McGrath more than made up for this however by conducting a very good tour!

                David Lutton
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Thomas Clemens
                To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 12:40 PM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Capture of Longstreet's ammunitiontrain, 9/15

                Just reading this now. Thanks for coming, it was great to have you along.

                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College

                >>> Jim Rosebrock <pointsalines@ yahoo.com> 09/19/09 12:18 AM >>>
                Looking forward to the tour tomorrow. Will see you at the 2:30 trek
                Regards
                Jim

                ____________ _________ _________ __
                From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@hagerstown cc.edu>
                To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:11:36 PM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Capture of Longstreet's ammunition train, 9/15

                The 2:30 tour. Just talked to Tom McGrath tonight, he is looking forward to the tour too. Joe Harsh and I could never figure out the 17 mile story. I think we got 14 or so, but it certainly is not 17.

                >>> "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@yahoo. com> 09/18/09 4:16 PM >>>
                Thanks Tom for that reminder!

                Here is the correction: "Lt. Col. Edward Porter Alexander, Chief of Ordnance for the Army of Northern Virginia.... " My HF escape chapter is nearly completion.

                Alexander said about this incident in his other book that he and his wagons had to return 13 miles to HF which certainly supports Jim Rosebrock's measurements- -~13 vice Hill's 17.

                BTW, for tomorrow's fording, are you leading the 2:30 or 3:30 crossing?

                Larry

                --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > Larry,
                > Great posts lately, just one minor point. Alexander was an Ordnance officer at this time, not yet commanding any artillery.
                > Tom
                >
                > >>> "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@...> 09/18/09 9:33 AM >>>
                > As Dean states and as Brian has written on AotW, the loss of the ammo for the ANV artillery was important.
                >
                > The practical effect of the loss of much ammunition for Lee's artillery meant that there was not ample ammunition for Rebel guns during the battle on the 17th. Edward Porter Alexander in charge of Longstreet's artillery wrote that "when I arrived at Shepherdstown, about noon on the 16th, with my ordnance train, and rode across the river and reported to Lee, I was ordered to collect all empty wagons and go to Harper's Ferry and take charge of the surrendered ammunition; bringing back to Sharpsburg all suiting our calibres, and sending to Winchester whatever we could not use in the field. The prospect of this addition to our supply was grateful, for the expenditures had been something, at Boonsboro, Crampton's Gap, and Harper's Ferry; and the loss of the 45 loads, burned by the [enemy] cavalry, had been a severe blow at such a distance from our base at Culpeper. I was soon on my way back, and encamped that night with many wagons not far from Harper's
                Ferry." (Alexander, Military Memoirs of A Confederate, 242.)
                >
                > Larry F.
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Dean Essig <d.essig@> wrote:
                > >
                > > On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:41 AM, troyacool@ wrote:
                > >
                > > > Is there any idea of the amount of ordinance lost or how it
                > > > effected the campaign or SOP.
                > >
                > >
                > > Given the paucity of ammo in the army reserve trains (using the 30
                > > Jun 63 ANVa ordnance receipts in Brown's Retreat from Gettysburg as a
                > > guide), Longstreet's trains would have represented somewhere between
                > > 33 and 50% of the army's artillery reserve ammunition.
                > >
                > > Far less than that percentage when it comes to small arms ammo, as it
                > > was more distributed into divisional trains.
                > >
                > > Artillery ammunition was frightfully limited for the ANVa at
                > > Sharpsburg (and that doesn't even address the organizational
                > > confusion at the army train park at the Grove Farm).
                > >
                > > Dean
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • dickeyr46
                Tom, Ed, and Carol, Thanks to all who made Saturday s crossing of the Potomac, battlefield tour, and follow-up social such a great success... hopefully to
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 24 6:07 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Tom, Ed, and Carol,
                  Thanks to all who made Saturday's crossing of the Potomac, battlefield tour, and follow-up social such a great success... hopefully to further the preservation of the Shepherdstown battlefield area. I believe all participants enjoyed themselves, I certainly did.
                  I participated last year and experienced the pavement-like bottom mentioned. I believe we entered at the same spot, but last year we paralleled the bank for 30 to 40 yards and moved up stream. Last year, the initial entry was also rocky, but this year we failed to move up stream and find the smooth bottom. Well, that's the way I remember it.
                  Hopefully, I'll see ya'll at the crossing next year.
                  Ron Dickey

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I think it will Dave, and thanks for coming. Sorry I missed you and thanks for the kind words.
                  >
                  > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > Professor of History
                  > Hagerstown Community College
                  >
                  >
                  > >>> "david lutton" <dunkerch@...> 09/22/09 8:53 PM >>>
                  > Jim,
                  >
                  > I totally agree. I think a great time was had by all.
                  > I hope this tour will become an annual event, and perhaps by next year we will have some positive news on the battlefield's fate. The 118th Pa. along with the other units who fought there should be remembered by more than a wayside marker.
                  >
                  >
                  > David
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Jim Rosebrock
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 11:02 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] River crossing
                  >
                  >
                  > Non the less great fun Tom. Thanks for leading us around yesterday.
                  > Regards Tom
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...>
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:20:26 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] River crossing
                  >
                  > I don't think we were at the right place either, although I'd swear we went in opposite the place where we came out last year. I'll need to do better recon next year.
                  >
                • Thomas Clemens
                  Hi Ron, Great to see you again, and to meet your brother. I think we went in lower down last year because we came upstream to where we crossed, but came out,
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 24 6:33 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Ron,
                    Great to see you again, and to meet your brother. I think we went in lower down last year because we came upstream to where we crossed, but came out, about where we crossed this year, I think. I remember coming out along someone's driveway last year, not at that pavilion. Like I said, better recon next time.


                    Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                    Professor of History
                    Hagerstown Community College




                    >>> "dickeyr46" <dickeyr46@...> 9/24/2009 8:07 AM >>>

                    Tom, Ed, and Carol,
                    Thanks to all who made Saturday's crossing of the Potomac, battlefield tour, and follow-up social such a great success... hopefully to further the preservation of the Shepherdstown battlefield area. I believe all participants enjoyed themselves, I certainly did.
                    I participated last year and experienced the pavement-like bottom mentioned. I believe we entered at the same spot, but last year we paralleled the bank for 30 to 40 yards and moved up stream. Last year, the initial entry was also rocky, but this year we failed to move up stream and find the smooth bottom. Well, that's the way I remember it.
                    Hopefully, I'll see ya'll at the crossing next year.
                    Ron Dickey

                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I think it will Dave, and thanks for coming. Sorry I missed you and thanks for the kind words.
                    >
                    > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > Professor of History
                    > Hagerstown Community College
                    >
                    >
                    > >>> "david lutton" <dunkerch@...> 09/22/09 8:53 PM >>>
                    > Jim,
                    >
                    > I totally agree. I think a great time was had by all.
                    > I hope this tour will become an annual event, and perhaps by next year we will have some positive news on the battlefield's fate. The 118th Pa. along with the other units who fought there should be remembered by more than a wayside marker.
                    >
                    >
                    > David
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Jim Rosebrock
                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 11:02 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] River crossing
                    >
                    >
                    > Non the less great fun Tom. Thanks for leading us around yesterday.
                    > Regards Tom
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...>
                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:20:26 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] River crossing
                    >
                    > I don't think we were at the right place either, although I'd swear we went in opposite the place where we came out last year. I'll need to do better recon next year.
                    >




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