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Re: Burnside Closer to HF than Franklin?

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  • wh_keene
    Harsh is referring to end of day on the 12th. According to Franklin s report he marched from Barnsville through Urbana to near the Monocacy on the 12th,
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 13, 2009
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      Harsh is referring to end of day on the 12th. According to Franklin's report he marched from Barnsville through Urbana to near the Monocacy on the 12th, putting him almost behind Burnside. I dont think he was at Licksville.

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
      >
      > Rene Tyree posted an interesting statement from Harsh that Burnside in Frederick was "considerably nearer" to HF than Franklin in Licksville (now Tuscarora) on 12/13 September (TATF, p. 210). Until now, I never looked at that statement closely but upon doing so, I don't understand it well.
      >
      > On modern roads most of which are on or near CW era roads, both Frederick and Tuscarora are about 21 miles from HF (MapQuest). (Straight-line miles show Tuscarora about 15 mi. and Frederick about 19 from HF; mostly irrelevant since neither Burnside or Franklin could have gone in a straight line.)
      >
      > At first blush, it seems that the march from Frederick could only be more advantageous because it would have been more direct on better roads, the Frederick-HF Turnpike (AKA Harper's Ferry Road or Ridge Road) through Jefferson to Knoxville then to HF while the route from Licksville to HF would have been less direct on worse roads. Franklin I suppose could have used the C&O Canal towpath but marching thousands of men, wagons, etc., using that narrow path would have taken a long time and exposed his army to destruction as it would have been strung out for many miles.
      >
      > Contemporary maps (from LOC, "1858 Map of Frederick County, Md. accurately drawn from correct instrumental surveys of all the county roads, & by Issac Bond C.E. Lithographed by E. Sachse & Co." and an 1861 map also from the LOC, "Frederick County, Maryland / prepared under the direction of Liut. Col. J.N. Macomb Chf. Topl. Engr., for the use of Maj. Gen. G. B. McClellan, commanding U.S. Army, 1861") show the distance from Frederick City to Knoxville as 15 miles and then it looks like another 5 or 6 to HF by my estimate. These maps also show about 16 mi. from Licksville to Knoxville. The last road on this route which would likely have been used from Licksville hits the HF Turnpike NW of Petersville and then follows the turnpike to Knoxville.
      >
      > Likely I'm missing/misunderstanding Harsh's point? Maybe he has Franklin still in Barnesville which is 5 miles from Licksville when Burnside is in Frederick--if so, then Burnside is definitely closer.
      >
      > On the 13th, Franklin had his HQ about 3 miles east of Jefferson. That morning, there was some fighting nearer Jefferson with Union cavalry and infantry against Rebel cavalry under Munford. Rush's Lancers had been dispatched early on the 13th to Jefferson Gap in the Catoctins some six miles southwest of Frederick where Col. Munford and his two regiments waited. The Lancers arrived with their infantry escort, the Ninth New York Infantry, just after noon and stopped having seen Confederate cannon in the road ahead.
      >
      > Arguably then on the 13th, Burnside had infantry closer to HF but it was only 2 regiments.
      >
      > Any thoughts about why Harsh said that Burnside was "considerably nearer?"
      >
      > Larry
      >
    • wh_keene
      ... So Franklin is coming up the Urbana Pike towards Frederick; Burnside is ahead of him in Frederick. ... Where did you get that Franklin was west of
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 16, 2009
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        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks for your reply and sorry for my continued confusion. OR, 19, pt. 1, pg. 378 shows Franklin on 12 Sept. thru Urbana near the Monocacy River while pg. 416 shows Burnside at Frederick.
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        So Franklin is coming up the Urbana Pike towards Frederick; Burnside is ahead of him in Frederick.


        > OR, 19, pt. 2, pg. 258, Pleasonton reports Franklin on 11 Sept. with a division near Sugarloaf. McClellan on 12 Sept. reports to Halleck that Burnside is in Frederick with the rest of his troops between there and New Market, with Franklin on the left of Sumner who is near Urbana, pg. 271.
        >
        > So if Burnside is no closer to HF than Frederick and Franklin is on or close to the Monocacy west of Sugarloaf on the 12th...

        Where did you get that Franklin was west of Sugarloaf?
      • eighth_conn_inf
        OR, pt. 2, pg. 258, Pleasonton reports that on 11 September General Franklin moved a division of his command forward this morning toward the cross-roads in
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 17, 2009
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          OR, pt. 2, pg. 258, Pleasonton reports that on 11 September "General Franklin moved a division of his command forward this morning toward the cross-roads in front [of Sugarloaf]…." While there are crossroads all around the mountain, my guess is that Pleasonton meant the cross roads to the south or west of the mountain.

          On pg. 271, McClellan reports that "Sumner is near Urbana, with our advance guard thrown out to the Monocacy; Williams on his right; Franklin on his left; Couch at Barnesville." Sugarloaf is south, southwest of Urbana so I believe that it is fair to argue that Franklin's troops are at least between Urbana and Sugarloaf. Further, it is likely that his advance scouts are west of Sugarloaf probably even to the Monocacy. The summit of Sugarloaf is about 2 miles east of the Monocacy.

          The straight line distance from the summit of SL to HF is about the same distance as is Frederick to HF--about 19 miles (Urbana not much further maybe a couple of miles away). But had Franklin been ordered to march from the vicinity of SL to HF by the most direct route, and Burnside having received the same orders, Burnside would have gotten there first since he had a very good road heading southwest directly (more or less) from Frederick to HF while Franklin clearly did not have any good direct roads to HF. As I noted in a previous post, the marching mileage for Franklin would have been much longer.

          If Franklin is due south of Urbana rather than near or west of SL, then the straight-line distance from HF to Franklin is about 2 miles more than from HF to Frederick.

          Given the OR reports, I'm sorry that I do not see that Burnside was "much closer" to HF on the 11th/12th than Franklin even if Franklin's advance scouts are not on the Monocacy unless we are only talking about marching distances.

          If you have cites showing something other than the OR cites above, please let me know. Thank you.



          So Franklin is coming up the Urbana Pike towards Frederick; Burnside is ahead of him in Frederick.
          >
          > Where did you get that Franklin was west of Sugarloaf?
          >
        • wh_keene
          ... On the 10th Franklin marched to Barnesville (SE of Sugarloaf) and then on the 12th he marched to Urbana (NE of Sugarloaf). In between he sent a brigade to
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 17, 2009
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            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
            >
            > OR, pt. 2, pg. 258, Pleasonton reports that on 11 September "General Franklin moved a division of his command forward this morning toward the cross-roads in front [of Sugarloaf]…." While there are crossroads all around the mountain, my guess is that Pleasonton meant the cross roads to the south or west of the mountain.
            >
            -------
            On the 10th Franklin marched to Barnesville (SE of Sugarloaf) and then on the 12th he marched to Urbana (NE of Sugarloaf). In between he sent a brigade to advance on Sugarloaf from Barnesville. I dont see any reason to guess he went west of sugarloaf on the 11th. The crossroads Pleasanton mentioned would seem to me to be what is labeled as Stronghold Maryland on modern maps. At the end of Franklin's report is a series of itineraries for the divisions. The description of the movement for the 2nd divisions says it moved to the right of Sugarloaf. Approaching from Barnesville, the right would be east of it.



            > On pg. 271, McClellan reports that "Sumner is near Urbana, with our advance guard thrown out to the Monocacy; Williams on his right; Franklin on his left; Couch at Barnesville." Sugarloaf is south, southwest of Urbana so I believe that it is fair to argue that Franklin's troops are at least between Urbana and Sugarloaf. Further, it is likely that his advance scouts are west of Sugarloaf probably even to the Monocacy. The summit of Sugarloaf is about 2 miles east of the Monocacy.
            ----
            I see no reason to guess that Franklin's advance scouts were west of Sugarloaf. As you point out, Franklin was between Sugarloaf and Urbana, which is north-northeast of Sugarloaf.



            > ...
            > Given the OR reports, I'm sorry that I do not see that Burnside was "much closer" to HF on the 11th/12th than Franklin even if Franklin's advance scouts are not on the Monocacy unless we are only talking about marching distances.
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            Why wouldnt we be talking about marching distances?
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