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Re: Special Order 191 Question

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    Gerry, 1. No evidence of that. 2. No one has said that a receiptt was ever received. 3. Hill never said anything like that. 4. Per Sears, The Lost Order, the
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 30, 2009
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      Gerry,

      1. No evidence of that.

      2. No one has said that a receiptt was ever received.

      3. Hill never said anything like that.

      4. Per Sears, The Lost Order, the envelope in which it was found, and Gen. Williams note are in the McClellan Papers in the LOC. N&S, vol. 5, no. 7., p. 64.

      Larry

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear All,
      >
      > Yesterday evening, while sitting under a tent fly at a small CW
      > event, along with two friends, one whom portrays Gen. J
      > Longstreet and the other who portrays Maj Gen LaFayette M'Laws, a
      > discussion was held about Special Order 191. Topics of the
      > discussion pertained to the copy which D H Hill receives from Gen
      > Jackson and whether or not the "official" copy transmitted from
      > Army HQ (Lee's HQ) ever reached General Hill.
      >
      > I do know Joe Harsh spends some time discussing this in TATF,
      > however, therein lies a mystery here, of several possible facets
      > (as at least per the discussion):
      >
      > 1. Did General Hill actually receive the "official" copy and was
      > it properly receipted for to be transmitted back to Army HQ?
      > 2. If a receipt was recd. at Lee's HQ of transmittal of the order
      > to General Hill, where would such receipt have been filed?
      > 3. Is it possible that, since Hill already had a copy sent him by
      > his brother in law, T J Jackson, when the "official" copy
      > arrives, the comment is basically, "Oh, we already have a copy"
      > & the "official" copy is receipted for and then destroyed by Hill
      > or one of his staff?
      > 4. As per the copy of SO191 found, rather conveniently it might
      > appear, wrapped around three cigars by Sgt Bloss of the 27th
      > Indiana and then sent up the chain of command to where it reaches
      > McClellan, and Mac says basically, "Here I have all the plans of
      > the Rebels and if I can not whip Bobby Lee, I might as well go
      > home"... does anyone know what happens to the copy which Mac
      > receives?
      >
      > Thank y'all for your enlightenment.
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      >
    • G E Mayers
      Dear Larry, Thank you for pointing out some information which I more or less knew... however, let us presume that the official copy was received and disposed
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 30, 2009
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        Dear Larry,

        Thank you for pointing out some information which I more or less
        knew... however, let us presume that the "official" copy was
        received and disposed of in some way? Also, why is it that
        nothing is really said within ANVa circles about the loss of
        SO191? In almost any army, the loss of such a highly sensitive
        document would be grounds for army wide investigation,
        identification of the culprit or culprits involved, and
        subsequent cashiering of said individuals... if they were not
        sentenced to be shot for treason.........

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 9:17 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Special Order 191 Question


        Gerry,

        1. No evidence of that.

        2. No one has said that a receiptt was ever received.

        3. Hill never said anything like that.

        4. Per Sears, The Lost Order, the envelope in which it was found,
        and Gen. Williams note are in the McClellan Papers in the LOC.
        N&S, vol. 5, no. 7., p. 64.

        Larry

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Dear All,
        >
        > Yesterday evening, while sitting under a tent fly at a small CW
        > event, along with two friends, one whom portrays Gen. J
        > Longstreet and the other who portrays Maj Gen LaFayette M'Laws,
        > a
        > discussion was held about Special Order 191. Topics of the
        > discussion pertained to the copy which D H Hill receives from
        > Gen
        > Jackson and whether or not the "official" copy transmitted from
        > Army HQ (Lee's HQ) ever reached General Hill.
        >
        > I do know Joe Harsh spends some time discussing this in TATF,
        > however, therein lies a mystery here, of several possible
        > facets
        > (as at least per the discussion):
        >
        > 1. Did General Hill actually receive the "official" copy and
        > was
        > it properly receipted for to be transmitted back to Army HQ?
        > 2. If a receipt was recd. at Lee's HQ of transmittal of the
        > order
        > to General Hill, where would such receipt have been filed?
        > 3. Is it possible that, since Hill already had a copy sent him
        > by
        > his brother in law, T J Jackson, when the "official" copy
        > arrives, the comment is basically, "Oh, we already have a
        > copy"
        > & the "official" copy is receipted for and then destroyed by
        > Hill
        > or one of his staff?
        > 4. As per the copy of SO191 found, rather conveniently it might
        > appear, wrapped around three cigars by Sgt Bloss of the 27th
        > Indiana and then sent up the chain of command to where it
        > reaches
        > McClellan, and Mac says basically, "Here I have all the plans
        > of
        > the Rebels and if I can not whip Bobby Lee, I might as well go
        > home"... does anyone know what happens to the copy which Mac
        > receives?
        >
        > Thank y'all for your enlightenment.
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
        > from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        >
      • G E Mayers
        4. Per Sears, The Lost Order, the envelope in which it was found, and Gen. Williams note are in the McClellan Papers in the LOC. N&S, vol. 5, no. 7., p.
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 30, 2009
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          <snip>4. Per Sears, The Lost Order, the envelope in which it was
          found, and Gen. Williams note are in the McClellan Papers in the
          LOC. N&S, vol. 5, no. 7., p. 64.

          Larry;

          But where is the actual copy of SO191 which Mac read and then
          jubilantly announces he has in hand "the plans of the Rebels"?

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        • Thomas Clemens
          As Larry pointed out, it is in the Library of Congress, (LOC) in the McClellan papers. It can also be viewed on line. I believe Chilton later wrote that the
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 30, 2009
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            As Larry pointed out, it is in the Library of Congress, (LOC) in the McClellan papers. It can also be viewed on line. I believe Chilton later wrote that the policy was for a courrier to breing back a signed envelope to show an order was delivered. He said there was no notice of a missing order, and so assumed all had been delivered.
            While there is a record of D.H. Hill losing an order during the Seven Days, there is no evidence that he received both copies of the order, and he vehemently denied that he had. You're referring to McClellan's telegram to Lincoln, where he wrote he "had all the plans of the rebels." Which is in the OR's, along with a typescript of the order.

            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College


            >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 08/30/09 9:23 PM >>>
            <snip>4. Per Sears, The Lost Order, the envelope in which it was
            found, and Gen. Williams note are in the McClellan Papers in the
            LOC. N&S, vol. 5, no. 7., p. 64.

            Larry;

            But where is the actual copy of SO191 which Mac read and then
            jubilantly announces he has in hand "the plans of the Rebels"?

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
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