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Special Order 191 Question

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  • G E Mayers
    Dear All, Yesterday evening, while sitting under a tent fly at a small CW event, along with two friends, one whom portrays Gen. J Longstreet and the other who
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 30, 2009
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      Dear All,

      Yesterday evening, while sitting under a tent fly at a small CW
      event, along with two friends, one whom portrays Gen. J
      Longstreet and the other who portrays Maj Gen LaFayette M'Laws, a
      discussion was held about Special Order 191. Topics of the
      discussion pertained to the copy which D H Hill receives from Gen
      Jackson and whether or not the "official" copy transmitted from
      Army HQ (Lee's HQ) ever reached General Hill.

      I do know Joe Harsh spends some time discussing this in TATF,
      however, therein lies a mystery here, of several possible facets
      (as at least per the discussion):

      1. Did General Hill actually receive the "official" copy and was
      it properly receipted for to be transmitted back to Army HQ?
      2. If a receipt was recd. at Lee's HQ of transmittal of the order
      to General Hill, where would such receipt have been filed?
      3. Is it possible that, since Hill already had a copy sent him by
      his brother in law, T J Jackson, when the "official" copy
      arrives, the comment is basically, "Oh, we already have a copy"
      & the "official" copy is receipted for and then destroyed by Hill
      or one of his staff?
      4. As per the copy of SO191 found, rather conveniently it might
      appear, wrapped around three cigars by Sgt Bloss of the 27th
      Indiana and then sent up the chain of command to where it reaches
      McClellan, and Mac says basically, "Here I have all the plans of
      the Rebels and if I can not whip Bobby Lee, I might as well go
      home"... does anyone know what happens to the copy which Mac
      receives?

      Thank y'all for your enlightenment.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Gerry, 1. No evidence of that. 2. No one has said that a receiptt was ever received. 3. Hill never said anything like that. 4. Per Sears, The Lost Order, the
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 30, 2009
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        Gerry,

        1. No evidence of that.

        2. No one has said that a receiptt was ever received.

        3. Hill never said anything like that.

        4. Per Sears, The Lost Order, the envelope in which it was found, and Gen. Williams note are in the McClellan Papers in the LOC. N&S, vol. 5, no. 7., p. 64.

        Larry

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear All,
        >
        > Yesterday evening, while sitting under a tent fly at a small CW
        > event, along with two friends, one whom portrays Gen. J
        > Longstreet and the other who portrays Maj Gen LaFayette M'Laws, a
        > discussion was held about Special Order 191. Topics of the
        > discussion pertained to the copy which D H Hill receives from Gen
        > Jackson and whether or not the "official" copy transmitted from
        > Army HQ (Lee's HQ) ever reached General Hill.
        >
        > I do know Joe Harsh spends some time discussing this in TATF,
        > however, therein lies a mystery here, of several possible facets
        > (as at least per the discussion):
        >
        > 1. Did General Hill actually receive the "official" copy and was
        > it properly receipted for to be transmitted back to Army HQ?
        > 2. If a receipt was recd. at Lee's HQ of transmittal of the order
        > to General Hill, where would such receipt have been filed?
        > 3. Is it possible that, since Hill already had a copy sent him by
        > his brother in law, T J Jackson, when the "official" copy
        > arrives, the comment is basically, "Oh, we already have a copy"
        > & the "official" copy is receipted for and then destroyed by Hill
        > or one of his staff?
        > 4. As per the copy of SO191 found, rather conveniently it might
        > appear, wrapped around three cigars by Sgt Bloss of the 27th
        > Indiana and then sent up the chain of command to where it reaches
        > McClellan, and Mac says basically, "Here I have all the plans of
        > the Rebels and if I can not whip Bobby Lee, I might as well go
        > home"... does anyone know what happens to the copy which Mac
        > receives?
        >
        > Thank y'all for your enlightenment.
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        >
      • G E Mayers
        Dear Larry, Thank you for pointing out some information which I more or less knew... however, let us presume that the official copy was received and disposed
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 30, 2009
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          Dear Larry,

          Thank you for pointing out some information which I more or less
          knew... however, let us presume that the "official" copy was
          received and disposed of in some way? Also, why is it that
          nothing is really said within ANVa circles about the loss of
          SO191? In almost any army, the loss of such a highly sensitive
          document would be grounds for army wide investigation,
          identification of the culprit or culprits involved, and
          subsequent cashiering of said individuals... if they were not
          sentenced to be shot for treason.........

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 9:17 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Special Order 191 Question


          Gerry,

          1. No evidence of that.

          2. No one has said that a receiptt was ever received.

          3. Hill never said anything like that.

          4. Per Sears, The Lost Order, the envelope in which it was found,
          and Gen. Williams note are in the McClellan Papers in the LOC.
          N&S, vol. 5, no. 7., p. 64.

          Larry

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Dear All,
          >
          > Yesterday evening, while sitting under a tent fly at a small CW
          > event, along with two friends, one whom portrays Gen. J
          > Longstreet and the other who portrays Maj Gen LaFayette M'Laws,
          > a
          > discussion was held about Special Order 191. Topics of the
          > discussion pertained to the copy which D H Hill receives from
          > Gen
          > Jackson and whether or not the "official" copy transmitted from
          > Army HQ (Lee's HQ) ever reached General Hill.
          >
          > I do know Joe Harsh spends some time discussing this in TATF,
          > however, therein lies a mystery here, of several possible
          > facets
          > (as at least per the discussion):
          >
          > 1. Did General Hill actually receive the "official" copy and
          > was
          > it properly receipted for to be transmitted back to Army HQ?
          > 2. If a receipt was recd. at Lee's HQ of transmittal of the
          > order
          > to General Hill, where would such receipt have been filed?
          > 3. Is it possible that, since Hill already had a copy sent him
          > by
          > his brother in law, T J Jackson, when the "official" copy
          > arrives, the comment is basically, "Oh, we already have a
          > copy"
          > & the "official" copy is receipted for and then destroyed by
          > Hill
          > or one of his staff?
          > 4. As per the copy of SO191 found, rather conveniently it might
          > appear, wrapped around three cigars by Sgt Bloss of the 27th
          > Indiana and then sent up the chain of command to where it
          > reaches
          > McClellan, and Mac says basically, "Here I have all the plans
          > of
          > the Rebels and if I can not whip Bobby Lee, I might as well go
          > home"... does anyone know what happens to the copy which Mac
          > receives?
          >
          > Thank y'all for your enlightenment.
          >
          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          >
          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
          > from
          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          >
        • G E Mayers
          4. Per Sears, The Lost Order, the envelope in which it was found, and Gen. Williams note are in the McClellan Papers in the LOC. N&S, vol. 5, no. 7., p.
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 30, 2009
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            <snip>4. Per Sears, The Lost Order, the envelope in which it was
            found, and Gen. Williams note are in the McClellan Papers in the
            LOC. N&S, vol. 5, no. 7., p. 64.

            Larry;

            But where is the actual copy of SO191 which Mac read and then
            jubilantly announces he has in hand "the plans of the Rebels"?

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          • Thomas Clemens
            As Larry pointed out, it is in the Library of Congress, (LOC) in the McClellan papers. It can also be viewed on line. I believe Chilton later wrote that the
            Message 5 of 5 , Aug 30, 2009
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              As Larry pointed out, it is in the Library of Congress, (LOC) in the McClellan papers. It can also be viewed on line. I believe Chilton later wrote that the policy was for a courrier to breing back a signed envelope to show an order was delivered. He said there was no notice of a missing order, and so assumed all had been delivered.
              While there is a record of D.H. Hill losing an order during the Seven Days, there is no evidence that he received both copies of the order, and he vehemently denied that he had. You're referring to McClellan's telegram to Lincoln, where he wrote he "had all the plans of the rebels." Which is in the OR's, along with a typescript of the order.

              Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              Professor of History
              Hagerstown Community College


              >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 08/30/09 9:23 PM >>>
              <snip>4. Per Sears, The Lost Order, the envelope in which it was
              found, and Gen. Williams note are in the McClellan Papers in the
              LOC. N&S, vol. 5, no. 7., p. 64.

              Larry;

              But where is the actual copy of SO191 which Mac read and then
              jubilantly announces he has in hand "the plans of the Rebels"?

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
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