Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

a mystery to solve

Expand Messages
  • Thomas Clemens
    Going over Carman s manuscript, Chap. 10, p. 576-77, I am stumped by a statement he makes that I cannot reference. Please read the following excerpt: At the
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 10, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Going over Carman's manuscript, Chap. 10, p. 576-77, I am stumped by a statement he makes that I cannot reference. Please read the following excerpt:

      At the hour this dispatch [ This dispatch was written 8:45 Sept. 15 and is found in OR 51.1:835-6] was penned McClellan prepared an order to Franklin to communicate with Burnside at the intersection of the Rohrersville and Boonsboro roads, and if the intelligence of the retreat of the enemy towards Shepherdstown Ford was confirmed to push on with his whole command (cautiously keeping up communications with Burnside), to Sharpsburg, and endeavor to fall upon the enemy and cut off his retreat, and to use his cavalry with the utmost vigor in following up the pursuit. There was not a word in the dispatch regarding McLaws' force in front and a strict obedience to the instructions contained in it would have been the abandonment
      [p. 577]
      of Pleasant Valley to McLaws and permission for him to retire unmolested and at his leisure, which, later, he actually did, with Franklin still in his front.
      Franklin asserts that he never received this order. We know that he did not act upon it. But, apparently, he did receive this or a similar order by the hands of Captain O'Keeffe, after he had made an examination of McLaws' position, and this he answered at 11 a. m.:
      I have received your dispatch by Captain O'Keeffe. The enemy is in large force in my front, in two lines of battle stretching across the valley, and a large column of artillery and infantry on the right of the valley looking toward Harper's Ferry. They outnumber me two to one. It will, of course, not answer to pursue the enemy under these circumstances. I shall communicate with Burnside as soon as possible. In the mean time I shall wait here until I learn what is the prospect of re-enforcement. I have not the force to justify an attack on the force I see in front. I have had a very close view of it, and its position is very strong.


      O'Keefe was a staff officer for McClellan. The question is WHERE AND WHEN did Franklin deny receiving this order. I have looked at his OR reports, and a lot of other sources. The only thing I can think of, and it is not very solid, is Franklin's statement in Battles & Leaders Vol. II p. 596 that he stayed in Pleasant Valley from the morning of the 15th to the evening of the 16th "without any orders from McClellan." Does anyone know of anything else?





      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College
    • Harry Smeltzer
      Tom, Did you check Tim Reese s book - the paperback one? Also any JCCW testimony of Franklin? Harry ... From: Thomas Clemens To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 10, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Tom,

        Did you check Tim Reese's book - the paperback one? Also any JCCW testimony of Franklin?

        Harry
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Thomas Clemens
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:51 AM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] a mystery to solve





        Going over Carman's manuscript, Chap. 10, p. 576-77, I am stumped by a statement he makes that I cannot reference. Please read the following excerpt:

        At the hour this dispatch [ This dispatch was written 8:45 Sept. 15 and is found in OR 51.1:835-6] was penned McClellan prepared an order to Franklin to communicate with Burnside at the intersection of the Rohrersville and Boonsboro roads, and if the intelligence of the retreat of the enemy towards Shepherdstown Ford was confirmed to push on with his whole command (cautiously keeping up communications with Burnside), to Sharpsburg, and endeavor to fall upon the enemy and cut off his retreat, and to use his cavalry with the utmost vigor in following up the pursuit. There was not a word in the dispatch regarding McLaws' force in front and a strict obedience to the instructions contained in it would have been the abandonment
        [p. 577]
        of Pleasant Valley to McLaws and permission for him to retire unmolested and at his leisure, which, later, he actually did, with Franklin still in his front.
        Franklin asserts that he never received this order. We know that he did not act upon it. But, apparently, he did receive this or a similar order by the hands of Captain O'Keeffe, after he had made an examination of McLaws' position, and this he answered at 11 a. m.:
        I have received your dispatch by Captain O'Keeffe. The enemy is in large force in my front, in two lines of battle stretching across the valley, and a large column of artillery and infantry on the right of the valley looking toward Harper's Ferry. They outnumber me two to one. It will, of course, not answer to pursue the enemy under these circumstances. I shall communicate with Burnside as soon as possible. In the mean time I shall wait here until I learn what is the prospect of re-enforcement. I have not the force to justify an attack on the force I see in front. I have had a very close view of it, and its position is very strong.

        O'Keefe was a staff officer for McClellan. The question is WHERE AND WHEN did Franklin deny receiving this order. I have looked at his OR reports, and a lot of other sources. The only thing I can think of, and it is not very solid, is Franklin's statement in Battles & Leaders Vol. II p. 596 that he stayed in Pleasant Valley from the morning of the 15th to the evening of the 16th "without any orders from McClellan." Does anyone know of anything else?

        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Thomas Clemens
        Not in Reese s book. Do not have access to JCCW records right now. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History Hagerstown Community College ... Tom, Did you
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 10, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Not in Reese's book. Do not have access to JCCW records right now.

          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College


          >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 06/10/09 12:06 PM >>>
          Tom,

          Did you check Tim Reese's book - the paperback one? Also any JCCW testimony of Franklin?

          Harry
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Thomas Clemens
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:51 AM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] a mystery to solve





          Going over Carman's manuscript, Chap. 10, p. 576-77, I am stumped by a statement he makes that I cannot reference. Please read the following excerpt:

          At the hour this dispatch [ This dispatch was written 8:45 Sept. 15 and is found in OR 51.1:835-6] was penned McClellan prepared an order to Franklin to communicate with Burnside at the intersection of the Rohrersville and Boonsboro roads, and if the intelligence of the retreat of the enemy towards Shepherdstown Ford was confirmed to push on with his whole command (cautiously keeping up communications with Burnside), to Sharpsburg, and endeavor to fall upon the enemy and cut off his retreat, and to use his cavalry with the utmost vigor in following up the pursuit. There was not a word in the dispatch regarding McLaws' force in front and a strict obedience to the instructions contained in it would have been the abandonment
          [p. 577]
          of Pleasant Valley to McLaws and permission for him to retire unmolested and at his leisure, which, later, he actually did, with Franklin still in his front.
          Franklin asserts that he never received this order. We know that he did not act upon it. But, apparently, he did receive this or a similar order by the hands of Captain O'Keeffe, after he had made an examination of McLaws' position, and this he answered at 11 a. m.:
          I have received your dispatch by Captain O'Keeffe. The enemy is in large force in my front, in two lines of battle stretching across the valley, and a large column of artillery and infantry on the right of the valley looking toward Harper's Ferry. They outnumber me two to one. It will, of course, not answer to pursue the enemy under these circumstances. I shall communicate with Burnside as soon as possible. In the mean time I shall wait here until I learn what is the prospect of re-enforcement. I have not the force to justify an attack on the force I see in front. I have had a very close view of it, and its position is very strong.

          O'Keefe was a staff officer for McClellan. The question is WHERE AND WHEN did Franklin deny receiving this order. I have looked at his OR reports, and a lot of other sources. The only thing I can think of, and it is not very solid, is Franklin's statement in Battles & Leaders Vol. II p. 596 that he stayed in Pleasant Valley from the morning of the 15th to the evening of the 16th "without any orders from McClellan." Does anyone know of anything else?

          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Harry Smeltzer
          Tom, You can find all the JCCW volumes on Google books. Harry ... From: Thomas Clemens To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:18 PM
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 10, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Tom,

            You can find all the JCCW volumes on Google books.

            Harry
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Thomas Clemens
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:18 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] a mystery to solve





            Not in Reese's book. Do not have access to JCCW records right now.

            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College

            >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 06/10/09 12:06 PM >>>
            Tom,

            Did you check Tim Reese's book - the paperback one? Also any JCCW testimony of Franklin?

            Harry
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Thomas Clemens
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:51 AM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] a mystery to solve

            Going over Carman's manuscript, Chap. 10, p. 576-77, I am stumped by a statement he makes that I cannot reference. Please read the following excerpt:

            At the hour this dispatch [ This dispatch was written 8:45 Sept. 15 and is found in OR 51.1:835-6] was penned McClellan prepared an order to Franklin to communicate with Burnside at the intersection of the Rohrersville and Boonsboro roads, and if the intelligence of the retreat of the enemy towards Shepherdstown Ford was confirmed to push on with his whole command (cautiously keeping up communications with Burnside), to Sharpsburg, and endeavor to fall upon the enemy and cut off his retreat, and to use his cavalry with the utmost vigor in following up the pursuit. There was not a word in the dispatch regarding McLaws' force in front and a strict obedience to the instructions contained in it would have been the abandonment
            [p. 577]
            of Pleasant Valley to McLaws and permission for him to retire unmolested and at his leisure, which, later, he actually did, with Franklin still in his front.
            Franklin asserts that he never received this order. We know that he did not act upon it. But, apparently, he did receive this or a similar order by the hands of Captain O'Keeffe, after he had made an examination of McLaws' position, and this he answered at 11 a. m.:
            I have received your dispatch by Captain O'Keeffe. The enemy is in large force in my front, in two lines of battle stretching across the valley, and a large column of artillery and infantry on the right of the valley looking toward Harper's Ferry. They outnumber me two to one. It will, of course, not answer to pursue the enemy under these circumstances. I shall communicate with Burnside as soon as possible. In the mean time I shall wait here until I learn what is the prospect of re-enforcement. I have not the force to justify an attack on the force I see in front. I have had a very close view of it, and its position is very strong.

            O'Keefe was a staff officer for McClellan. The question is WHERE AND WHEN did Franklin deny receiving this order. I have looked at his OR reports, and a lot of other sources. The only thing I can think of, and it is not very solid, is Franklin's statement in Battles & Leaders Vol. II p. 596 that he stayed in Pleasant Valley from the morning of the 15th to the evening of the 16th "without any orders from McClellan." Does anyone know of anything else?

            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Adam Zimmerli
            Tom, Have you talked to Mark Snell? He edited Franklin s papers, and may have come across something. Adam
            Message 5 of 6 , Jun 11, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Tom,

              Have you talked to Mark Snell? He edited Franklin's papers, and may have come across something.

              Adam

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
              >
              > Tom,
              >
              > You can find all the JCCW volumes on Google books.
              >
              > Harry
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Thomas Clemens
              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:18 PM
              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] a mystery to solve
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Not in Reese's book. Do not have access to JCCW records right now.
              >
              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > Professor of History
              > Hagerstown Community College
              >
              > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 06/10/09 12:06 PM >>>
              > Tom,
              >
              > Did you check Tim Reese's book - the paperback one? Also any JCCW testimony of Franklin?
              >
              > Harry
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Thomas Clemens
              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:51 AM
              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] a mystery to solve
              >
              > Going over Carman's manuscript, Chap. 10, p. 576-77, I am stumped by a statement he makes that I cannot reference. Please read the following excerpt:
              >
              > At the hour this dispatch [ This dispatch was written 8:45 Sept. 15 and is found in OR 51.1:835-6] was penned McClellan prepared an order to Franklin to communicate with Burnside at the intersection of the Rohrersville and Boonsboro roads, and if the intelligence of the retreat of the enemy towards Shepherdstown Ford was confirmed to push on with his whole command (cautiously keeping up communications with Burnside), to Sharpsburg, and endeavor to fall upon the enemy and cut off his retreat, and to use his cavalry with the utmost vigor in following up the pursuit. There was not a word in the dispatch regarding McLaws' force in front and a strict obedience to the instructions contained in it would have been the abandonment
              > [p. 577]
              > of Pleasant Valley to McLaws and permission for him to retire unmolested and at his leisure, which, later, he actually did, with Franklin still in his front.
              > Franklin asserts that he never received this order. We know that he did not act upon it. But, apparently, he did receive this or a similar order by the hands of Captain O'Keeffe, after he had made an examination of McLaws' position, and this he answered at 11 a. m.:
              > I have received your dispatch by Captain O'Keeffe. The enemy is in large force in my front, in two lines of battle stretching across the valley, and a large column of artillery and infantry on the right of the valley looking toward Harper's Ferry. They outnumber me two to one. It will, of course, not answer to pursue the enemy under these circumstances. I shall communicate with Burnside as soon as possible. In the mean time I shall wait here until I learn what is the prospect of re-enforcement. I have not the force to justify an attack on the force I see in front. I have had a very close view of it, and its position is very strong.
              >
              > O'Keefe was a staff officer for McClellan. The question is WHERE AND WHEN did Franklin deny receiving this order. I have looked at his OR reports, and a lot of other sources. The only thing I can think of, and it is not very solid, is Franklin's statement in Battles & Leaders Vol. II p. 596 that he stayed in Pleasant Valley from the morning of the 15th to the evening of the 16th "without any orders from McClellan." Does anyone know of anything else?
              >
              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > Professor of History
              > Hagerstown Community College
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Thomas Clemens
              Yes, and No. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History Hagerstown Community College ... Tom, Have you talked to Mark Snell? He edited Franklin s papers, and
              Message 6 of 6 , Jun 11, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Yes, and No.


                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College


                >>> "Adam Zimmerli" <azimmerli@...> 06/11/09 1:21 PM >>>
                Tom,

                Have you talked to Mark Snell? He edited Franklin's papers, and may have come across something.

                Adam

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
                >
                > Tom,
                >
                > You can find all the JCCW volumes on Google books.
                >
                > Harry
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Thomas Clemens
                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:18 PM
                > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] a mystery to solve
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Not in Reese's book. Do not have access to JCCW records right now.
                >
                > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > Professor of History
                > Hagerstown Community College
                >
                > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 06/10/09 12:06 PM >>>
                > Tom,
                >
                > Did you check Tim Reese's book - the paperback one? Also any JCCW testimony of Franklin?
                >
                > Harry
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Thomas Clemens
                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:51 AM
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] a mystery to solve
                >
                > Going over Carman's manuscript, Chap. 10, p. 576-77, I am stumped by a statement he makes that I cannot reference. Please read the following excerpt:
                >
                > At the hour this dispatch [ This dispatch was written 8:45 Sept. 15 and is found in OR 51.1:835-6] was penned McClellan prepared an order to Franklin to communicate with Burnside at the intersection of the Rohrersville and Boonsboro roads, and if the intelligence of the retreat of the enemy towards Shepherdstown Ford was confirmed to push on with his whole command (cautiously keeping up communications with Burnside), to Sharpsburg, and endeavor to fall upon the enemy and cut off his retreat, and to use his cavalry with the utmost vigor in following up the pursuit. There was not a word in the dispatch regarding McLaws' force in front and a strict obedience to the instructions contained in it would have been the abandonment
                > [p. 577]
                > of Pleasant Valley to McLaws and permission for him to retire unmolested and at his leisure, which, later, he actually did, with Franklin still in his front.
                > Franklin asserts that he never received this order. We know that he did not act upon it. But, apparently, he did receive this or a similar order by the hands of Captain O'Keeffe, after he had made an examination of McLaws' position, and this he answered at 11 a. m.:
                > I have received your dispatch by Captain O'Keeffe. The enemy is in large force in my front, in two lines of battle stretching across the valley, and a large column of artillery and infantry on the right of the valley looking toward Harper's Ferry. They outnumber me two to one. It will, of course, not answer to pursue the enemy under these circumstances. I shall communicate with Burnside as soon as possible. In the mean time I shall wait here until I learn what is the prospect of re-enforcement. I have not the force to justify an attack on the force I see in front. I have had a very close view of it, and its position is very strong.
                >
                > O'Keefe was a staff officer for McClellan. The question is WHERE AND WHEN did Franklin deny receiving this order. I have looked at his OR reports, and a lot of other sources. The only thing I can think of, and it is not very solid, is Franklin's statement in Battles & Leaders Vol. II p. 596 that he stayed in Pleasant Valley from the morning of the 15th to the evening of the 16th "without any orders from McClellan." Does anyone know of anything else?
                >
                > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > Professor of History
                > Hagerstown Community College
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.