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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CC Map Question

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  • Thomas Clemens
    OK, but it won t be anytime soon. I am rushing to finish some other stuff and go out of town for a week. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History
    Message 1 of 24 , May 25, 2009
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      OK, but it won't be anytime soon. I am rushing to finish some other
      stuff and go out of town for a week.

      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College


      >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 05/24/09 10:09 PM >>>
      Tom,

      I also am interested in the changes as well as a set of the 1908 maps.
      The best for them would be full size on sturdy, laminated paper,
      obviously clearly printed in non fading ink as discussed below.

      If you think this is possible, you could PM me with an estimated cost
      just in case I don't win the lottery.

      TR, it would be interesting to see the 3rd PR book's map.

      Larry

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> wrote:
      >
      > Tom,
      >
      > I'd be interested in the list of changes.
      >
      > T.R. Livesey
      > tlivesey@...
      >
      >
      >
      > On Sun 05/24/09 5:11 PM , "Thomas Clemens" clemenst@... sent:
      > > Somewhere in the papers from Carman I found a listing of the
      changes.
      > > Will see if I can find it for you. We have 8 x10 color negatives of
      > > the1908 maps. Maybe I should look into printing them poster-size?
      > >
      > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      > > Professor of History
      > > Hagerstown Community College
      > >
      > >
      > > >>> T.R.Livesey 05/24/09 3:08 PM
      > > >>>Larry,
      > >
      > > I have never had access to a 1908 version to compare. My guess is
      that
      > > the
      > > differences between the 2 are minor. A hint of possible changes can
      be
      > > extracted
      > > from 1906 correspondence from Carman reprinted in the commemorative
      > > volume of the
      > > Pennsylvania Reserves (pp 95-8). There is a dispute between the
      > > AntietamBattlefield Commission of Pennsylvania and Carman about the
      proposed
      > > placement of
      > > the monuments for the 8th, 7th, 4th, and 3rd PR: they want the order
      to
      > > be 8th
      > > 7th 4th and 3rd, whereas Carman's map shows 8th 3rd 4th 7th. After
      > > making his
      > > case, Carman laments : †It is unfortunate that this matter was
      > > notdiscussed
      > > earlier. My atlas has been published two years, and a copy sent to
      each
      > > regimental organization with the request that any apparent errors
      might
      > > be
      > > reported, but not a criticism has been made of any position of the
      > > FirstCorps,
      > > and but one or two trifling ones in other corps.†I don't know if
      > > the1908
      > > edition was altered to reflect the commission's version. The
      monuments
      > > were
      > > placed as per Carman's recommendation. Whatever the case, as late as
      > > 1906, Carman
      > > was unaware of 'non-trifling' discrepancies of the 1904 version.
      > >
      > > BTW, the fold-out map that accompanies the PR volume is a real gem:
      a
      > > beautiful
      > > depiction of the battlefield at the turn of the century (before the
      > > various
      > > bypasses were built) in color and wonderful topographical detail (20
      ft
      > > interval
      > > contour lines). One of the nicest maps out there.
      > >
      > > T.R. Livesey
      > > tlivesey@...
      >
      > >
      >
    • Larry Freiheit
      No rush, thx Tom. ... From: Thomas Clemens Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CC Map Question To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Date:
      Message 2 of 24 , May 25, 2009
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        No rush, thx Tom.

        --- On Mon, 5/25/09, Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...> wrote:


        From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...>
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CC Map Question
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, May 25, 2009, 10:07 AM








        OK, but it won't be anytime soon. I am rushing to finish some other
        stuff and go out of town for a week.

        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College

        >>> "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@yahoo. com> 05/24/09 10:09 PM >>>
        Tom,

        I also am interested in the changes as well as a set of the 1908 maps.
        The best for them would be full size on sturdy, laminated paper,
        obviously clearly printed in non fading ink as discussed below.

        If you think this is possible, you could PM me with an estimated cost
        just in case I don't win the lottery.

        TR, it would be interesting to see the 3rd PR book's map.

        Larry

        --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@.. .> wrote:
        >
        > Tom,
        >
        > I'd be interested in the list of changes.
        >
        > T.R. Livesey
        > tlivesey@...
        >
        >
        >
        > On Sun 05/24/09 5:11 PM , "Thomas Clemens" clemenst@... sent:
        > > Somewhere in the papers from Carman I found a listing of the
        changes.
        > > Will see if I can find it for you. We have 8 x10 color negatives of
        > > the1908 maps. Maybe I should look into printing them poster-size?
        > >
        > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > > Professor of History
        > > Hagerstown Community College
        > >
        > >
        > > >>> T.R.Livesey 05/24/09 3:08 PM
        > > >>>Larry,
        > >
        > > I have never had access to a 1908 version to compare. My guess is
        that
        > > the
        > > differences between the 2 are minor. A hint of possible changes can
        be
        > > extracted
        > > from 1906 correspondence from Carman reprinted in the commemorative
        > > volume of the
        > > Pennsylvania Reserves (pp 95-8). There is a dispute between the
        > > AntietamBattlefield Commission of Pennsylvania and Carman about the
        proposed
        > > placement of
        > > the monuments for the 8th, 7th, 4th, and 3rd PR: they want the order
        to
        > > be 8th
        > > 7th 4th and 3rd, whereas Carman's map shows 8th 3rd 4th 7th. After
        > > making his
        > > case, Carman laments : †It is unfortunate that this matter was
        > > notdiscussed
        > > earlier. My atlas has been published two years, and a copy sent to
        each
        > > regimental organization with the request that any apparent errors
        might
        > > be
        > > reported, but not a criticism has been made of any position of the
        > > FirstCorps,
        > > and but one or two trifling ones in other corps.†I don't know if
        > > the1908
        > > edition was altered to reflect the commission's version. The
        monuments
        > > were
        > > placed as per Carman's recommendation. Whatever the case, as late as
        > > 1906, Carman
        > > was unaware of 'non-trifling' discrepancies of the 1904 version.
        > >
        > > BTW, the fold-out map that accompanies the PR volume is a real gem:
        a
        > > beautiful
        > > depiction of the battlefield at the turn of the century (before the
        > > various
        > > bypasses were built) in color and wonderful topographical detail (20
        ft
        > > interval
        > > contour lines). One of the nicest maps out there.
        > >
        > > T.R. Livesey
        > > tlivesey@...
        >
        > >
        >



















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • G E Mayers
        Dear Tom, What would such a project cost? Would it be something SHAF could offer at a discount to members? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian,
        Message 3 of 24 , May 25, 2009
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          Dear Tom,

          What would such a project cost? Would it be something SHAF could
          offer at a discount to members?

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:11 PM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CC Map Question


          > Somewhere in the papers from Carman I found a listing of the
          > changes.
          > Will see if I can find it for you. We have 8 x10 color
          > negatives of the
          > 1908 maps. Maybe I should look into printing them poster-size?
          >
          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > Professor of History
          > Hagerstown Community College
          >
          >
          >>>> T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> 05/24/09 3:08
          >>>> PM >>>
          > Larry,
          >
          > I have never had access to a 1908 version to compare. My guess
          > is that
          > the
          > differences between the 2 are minor. A hint of possible changes
          > can be
          > extracted
          > from 1906 correspondence from Carman reprinted in the
          > commemorative
          > volume of the
          > Pennsylvania Reserves (pp 95-8). There is a dispute between the
          > Antietam
          > Battlefield Commission of Pennsylvania and Carman about the
          > proposed
          > placement of
          > the monuments for the 8th, 7th, 4th, and 3rd PR: they want the
          > order to
          > be 8th
          > 7th 4th and 3rd, whereas Carman's map shows 8th 3rd 4th 7th.
          > After
          > making his
          > case, Carman laments : ”It is unfortunate that this matter was
          > not
          > discussed
          > earlier. My atlas has been published two years, and a copy sent
          > to each
          > regimental organization with the request that any apparent
          > errors might
          > be
          > reported, but not a criticism has been made of any position of
          > the First
          > Corps,
          > and but one or two trifling ones in other corps.” I don't know
          > if the
          > 1908
          > edition was altered to reflect the commission's version. The
          > monuments
          > were
          > placed as per Carman's recommendation. Whatever the case, as
          > late as
          > 1906, Carman
          > was unaware of 'non-trifling' discrepancies of the 1904
          > version.
          >
          > BTW, the fold-out map that accompanies the PR volume is a real
          > gem: a
          > beautiful
          > depiction of the battlefield at the turn of the century (before
          > the
          > various
          > bypasses were built) in color and wonderful topographical
          > detail (20 ft
          > interval
          > contour lines). One of the nicest maps out there.
          >
          > T.R. Livesey
          > tlivesey@...
          >
          > On Sun 05/24/09 12:51 PM , "eighth_conn_inf"
          > eighth_conn_inf@...
          > sent:
          >> TR,
          >>
          >> I looked at some of your flybys and they are interesting;
          >> thanks for
          >> sharing them. I will be instructive to see what Stephen comes
          >> up with
          > for
          >> Virtual Antietam.
          >> I've never heard that anyone owns the 1908 CC version let
          >> alone
          > listing the
          >> differences between the two. Maybe Tom Clemens who is writing
          >> about
          > Carman
          >> may have that version copied or at least talk about the
          >> differences. I
          >> recall someone--Jake Pierro--mentioned that the LOC has both
          >> 1904 and
          > 1908
          >> versions but only has the 1904 on its website.
          >> Someday someone may have a good printing done of the the 1908
          >> version
          > and
          >> maybe even some done of some of the original prints of the OR
          >> maps but
          > my
          >> guess is neither is likely to happen unless CWPT or some
          >> wealthy CW
          > fan
          >> ponies up the required funds since neither will be best
          >> sellers.
          >> Larry
          >>
          >>
          >
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
        • Dave
          Gerry, I think one could compare a high-quality printing run with Morningside s printing of the Bachelder maps. They printed them years ago, and the set of
          Message 4 of 24 , May 29, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Gerry,

            I think one could compare a high-quality printing run with Morningside's
            printing of the Bachelder maps. They printed them years ago, and the
            set of 28 (37 x 27) run $250. They've been that price for many years,
            and I think that's a very fair price. I don't have them, but I've seen
            them, and they are the quality we would like to see in the CC maps (much
            better than the one in the museum). If someone was willing to have them
            printed, I would make sure that they had the money in hand from those
            interested before starting out. My feeling is that $20-$25 for each map
            would be a good price, but that's still a lot of money for most folks
            and I don't believe it could be done that cheaply in any event. Maybe
            we can turn this in as a Stimulus package request.

            Dave McGowan

            G E Mayers wrote:
            >
            >
            > Dear Tom,
            >
            > What would such a project cost? Would it be something SHAF could
            > offer at a discount to members?
            >
            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            >
            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...
            > <mailto:clemenst%40hagerstowncc.edu>>
            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
            > Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:11 PM
            > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CC Map Question
            >
            > > Somewhere in the papers from Carman I found a listing of the
            > > changes.
            > > Will see if I can find it for you. We have 8 x10 color
            > > negatives of the
            > > 1908 maps. Maybe I should look into printing them poster-size?
            > >
            > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > > Professor of History
            > > Hagerstown Community College
            > >
            > >
            > >>>> T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...
            > <mailto:tlivesey%40westwoodgalleries.com>> 05/24/09 3:08
            > >>>> PM >>>
            > > Larry,
            > >
            > > I have never had access to a 1908 version to compare. My guess
            > > is that
            > > the
            > > differences between the 2 are minor. A hint of possible changes
            > > can be
            > > extracted
            > > from 1906 correspondence from Carman reprinted in the
            > > commemorative
            > > volume of the
            > > Pennsylvania Reserves (pp 95-8). There is a dispute between the
            > > Antietam
            > > Battlefield Commission of Pennsylvania and Carman about the
            > > proposed
            > > placement of
            > > the monuments for the 8th, 7th, 4th, and 3rd PR: they want the
            > > order to
            > > be 8th
            > > 7th 4th and 3rd, whereas Carman's map shows 8th 3rd 4th 7th.
            > > After
            > > making his
            > > case, Carman laments : ”It is unfortunate that this matter was
            > > not
            > > discussed
            > > earlier. My atlas has been published two years, and a copy sent
            > > to each
            > > regimental organization with the request that any apparent
            > > errors might
            > > be
            > > reported, but not a criticism has been made of any position of
            > > the First
            > > Corps,
            > > and but one or two trifling ones in other corps.” I don't know
            > > if the
            > > 1908
            > > edition was altered to reflect the commission's version. The
            > > monuments
            > > were
            > > placed as per Carman's recommendation. Whatever the case, as
            > > late as
            > > 1906, Carman
            > > was unaware of 'non-trifling' discrepancies of the 1904
            > > version.
            > >
            > > BTW, the fold-out map that accompanies the PR volume is a real
            > > gem: a
            > > beautiful
            > > depiction of the battlefield at the turn of the century (before
            > > the
            > > various
            > > bypasses were built) in color and wonderful topographical
            > > detail (20 ft
            > > interval
            > > contour lines). One of the nicest maps out there.
            > >
            > > T.R. Livesey
            > > tlivesey@... <mailto:tlivesey%40westwoodgalleries.com>
            > >
            > > On Sun 05/24/09 12:51 PM , "eighth_conn_inf"
            > > eighth_conn_inf@... <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%40yahoo.com>
            > > sent:
            > >> TR,
            > >>
            > >> I looked at some of your flybys and they are interesting;
            > >> thanks for
            > >> sharing them. I will be instructive to see what Stephen comes
            > >> up with
            > > for
            > >> Virtual Antietam.
            > >> I've never heard that anyone owns the 1908 CC version let
            > >> alone
            > > listing the
            > >> differences between the two. Maybe Tom Clemens who is writing
            > >> about
            > > Carman
            > >> may have that version copied or at least talk about the
            > >> differences. I
            > >> recall someone--Jake Pierro--mentioned that the LOC has both
            > >> 1904 and
            > > 1908
            > >> versions but only has the 1904 on its website.
            > >> Someday someone may have a good printing done of the the 1908
            > >> version
            > > and
            > >> maybe even some done of some of the original prints of the OR
            > >> maps but
            > > my
            > >> guess is neither is likely to happen unless CWPT or some
            > >> wealthy CW
            > > fan
            > >> ponies up the required funds since neither will be best
            > >> sellers.
            > >> Larry
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
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