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Re: CC Map Question

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    Stephen, Excellent--look forward to it. Google Earth and Zillow are good but can get fuzzy very close in. Larry
    Message 1 of 24 , May 9 6:28 AM
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      Stephen,

      Excellent--look forward to it. Google Earth and Zillow are good but can get fuzzy very close in.

      Larry

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...> wrote:
      >
      > Larry,
      >
      > I have actually been working on making a fly-in over the CC maps. I'll
      > put some tests up on my site soon.
      >
      > Stephen
      >
      >
      > On Saturday, May 9, 2009, at 08:27 AM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:
      >
      > > T.R. and Dave,
      > >
      > > The large printed maps do seem to muddy some details and the colors
      > > aren't as good; they are just not as clear as the screen version.
      > > Apparently it is not so easy to get crisp printing on such a large
      > > map. I bought one of the park's laminated ones and two from the
      > > Florida printer. The Florida prints seem to have faded a little.
      > >
      > > T.R.--you have the 1904 version? Are the details as clear as they
      > > appear on the computer screen? I'm guessing that finding original
      > > copies of either the 04 or 08 maps is difficult; I've not seen any
      > > advertised anywhere.Do you laminate your smaller prints to take to the
      > > field?
      > >
      > > Contour lines as on the CC maps are a must for me, too. Now if someone
      > > would program the maps so one could "fly in" to get an overhead like
      > > you can on Google Earth and also get a street view that would be > great.
      > >
      > > Larry
      >
    • T.R.Livesey
      Larry, Yes, I have the 1904 edition. The printed images are very clean and crisp. If all you ve ever seen is the reprints of the official records atlas, the
      Message 2 of 24 , May 23 11:59 AM
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        Larry,

        Yes, I have the 1904 edition. The printed images are very clean and crisp. If all
        you've ever seen is the reprints of the official records atlas, the originals in
        their proper size are truely works of art. I don't bother to laminate my maps
        since they are just print-outs anyway.

        Back in the 90's I experimented with fly-by images, long before there was Google
        anything. The quality was not that great and the file sizes were totally
        impractable for the dial-up services of the time, do I didn't pursue them. I dug
        them up and posted them if anyone is interested:

        flyby from south to north looking east at the otto farm:

        http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam/flyby/otto.mpg

        flyby from south to north over the otto farm looking west

        http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam/flyby/otto2.mpg

        flyby along the Piper Swale, first east toward the Antietam and then back west
        toward the west woods

        http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam/flyby/piperswale2.mpg

        flyby over Turner Gap.looking northwest up the National Pike over Turner's Gap,
        and then circling around counter-clockwise

        http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam/flyby/turnergap2.mpg

        The Piper Swale and Turner's Gap flybys are in stereo, and if you can view them
        in stereo the Turner Gap one is particularly spectacular.


        T.R. Livesey
        tlivesey@...

        On Sat 05/ 9/09 7:27 AM , "eighth_conn_inf" eighth_conn_inf@... sent:
        > T.R. and Dave,
        >
        > The large printed maps do seem to muddy some details and the colors aren't
        > as good; they are just not as clear as the screen version. Apparently it is
        > not so easy to get crisp printing on such a large map. I bought one of the
        > park's laminated ones and two from the Florida printer. The Florida prints
        > seem to have faded a little.
        > T.R.--you have the 1904 version? Are the details as clear as they appear on
        > the computer screen? I'm guessing that finding original copies of either
        > the 04 or 08 maps is difficult; I've not seen any advertised anywhere.Do
        > you laminate your smaller prints to take to the field?
        > Contour lines as on the CC maps are a must for me, too. Now if someone
        > would program the maps so one could "fly in" to get an overhead
        > like you can on Google Earth and also get a street view that would be
        > great.
        > Larry
        >
        > --- In
        > TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey
        > wrote:>
        > > I found my copy of the viewer that I downloaded
        > several years ago. I couldn't find it on their website. The CC maps are
        > great, but they are too big to be used as a whole. I have an actual
        > original edition, and its really too big even when you open it up on a big
        > table. You end up having to lean over it and my back and neck get sore.
        > Much better to zoom into an area of interest and make a print out of that
        > that is a more manageable size. They blow up really well. I have a color
        > printer that does 11x17 and I have made very nice copies with
        > it.>
        > > Any map that does not have topo lines or some
        > other means of indicating elevation is useless, unless you just want to
        > frame it and hang it on a wall. For that reason alone the CC maps can't be
        > beat.>
        > > T.R. Livesey
        > > tlivesey@...
        > >
        > > On Fri 05/ 8/09 8:10 PM , Dave Mc gewehr@...
        > sent:> > T.R. and Larry,
        > > > Yep, the first part of the answer is a
        > usable format, and T.R. is > > correct, the web browser plug in does offer
        > saving a .sid file into a > > .jpg or tiff. I didn't know about the plug
        > in, all I've ever used is > > the stand alone viewer. Thanks for that
        > tip. I'll let you know how > > this all comes out.
        > > >
        > > > Dave
        > > >
        > > > T.R.Livesey wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Have you downloaded the mrsid browser
        > plug-in? I> > can't quite > remember...I
        > don't> > > use windows anymore. At one point I
        > used the> > plug in to view sid CC > files
        > I> > > downloaded from the LOC. They also had
        > a viewer> > application that I >
        > downloaded.> > > One or both of these allowed zooming
        > into an> > area of interest and then >
        > saving> > > that portion as a tiff or a jpg. Once
        > you have> > the tiff or jpg you can > take
        > it> > > anywhere to print.
        > > > >
        > > > > T.R. Livesey
        > > > > tlivesey@...
        > > > >
        > > > > On Fri 05/ 8/09 4:55 PM , Dave gewehr@ci> > nci.rr.com >
        > > > sent:> > Larry, I haven't had any
        > luck with the> > maps. Still looking for a> >
        > solution.> > > > Dave
        > > > > >
        > > > > > eighth_conn_inf wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Dave,
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Did you have any luck on the
        > printing> > of the CC> > maps?>
        > > > > > > >From what I read on the
        > LOC site,> > the maps> > are not
        > restricted.>> > > > > Larry
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In
        > > > > >
        > > >
        > TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com> > > ,> > Dave wrote:>
        > >> > > > > > Has anyone ever tried,
        > or had any> > luck> > taking the CC maps in
        > MrSid> > format> > to somewhere like Kinkos and >
        > getting> > > > a large format, color hard>
        > > copy> > printed out? I assume they are legal>
        > > to print, please correct me> > if I'm> > wrong.> > > >
        > > > > > > > Dave McGowan
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > ------------------------------------>
        > >> > > >
        > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > > > >
        > > > > > To visit your group on the web,
        > go> > to:> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TalkAntietam/> > > > > Your email
        > settings:> > > > Individual Email |
        > Traditional> > > >
        > > > > > To change settings online go
        > to:> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TalkAntietam/join> > > (Yahoo! ID
        required)>
        > >> > > > To change settings via
        > email:> > > > TalkAntietam-digest@yahoogroups.com >> > >
        TalkAntietam-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com >> > > > To unsubscribe from this group,
        > send an> > email to:> > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > > > Your
        use of Yahoo! Groups is
        > subject> > to:> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >
        > >> > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > ------------------------------------> >
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > > To visit your group on the web, go
        > to:> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TalkAntietam/> > Your email settings:
        > > > Individual Email | Traditional
        > > >
        > > > To change settings online go
        > to:> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TalkAntietam/join(Yahoo! ID required)> >
        > > > To change settings via email:
        > > > TalkAntietam-digest@yahoogroups.com
        TalkAntietam-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an
        > email to:> > TalkAntietam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> > Your use of Yahoo!
        Groups is subject
        > to:> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TalkAntietam/
        > Your email settings:
        > Individual Email | Traditional
        >
        > To change settings online go to:
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        >
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        >
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        >
      • eighth_conn_inf
        TR, I looked at some of your flybys and they are interesting; thanks for sharing them. I will be instructive to see what Stephen comes up with for Virtual
        Message 3 of 24 , May 24 10:51 AM
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          TR,

          I looked at some of your flybys and they are interesting; thanks for sharing them. I will be instructive to see what Stephen comes up with for Virtual Antietam.

          I've never heard that anyone owns the 1908 CC version let alone listing the differences between the two. Maybe Tom Clemens who is writing about Carman may have that version copied or at least talk about the differences. I recall someone--Jake Pierro--mentioned that the LOC has both 1904 and 1908 versions but only has the 1904 on its website.

          Someday someone may have a good printing done of the the 1908 version and maybe even some done of some of the original prints of the OR maps but my guess is neither is likely to happen unless CWPT or some wealthy CW fan ponies up the required funds since neither will be best sellers.

          Larry


          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Larry,
          >
          > Yes, I have the 1904 edition. The printed images are very clean and crisp. If all
          > you've ever seen is the reprints of the official records atlas, the originals in
          > their proper size are truely works of art. I don't bother to laminate my maps
          > since they are just print-outs anyway.
          >
          > Back in the 90's I experimented with fly-by images, long before there was Google
          > anything. The quality was not that great and the file sizes were totally
          > impractable for the dial-up services of the time, do I didn't pursue them. I dug
          > them up and posted them if anyone is interested:
          >
          > flyby from south to north looking east at the otto farm:
          >
          > http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam/flyby/otto.mpg
          >
          > flyby from south to north over the otto farm looking west
          >
          > http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam/flyby/otto2.mpg
          >
          > flyby along the Piper Swale, first east toward the Antietam and then back west
          > toward the west woods
          >
          > http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam/flyby/piperswale2.mpg
          >
          > flyby over Turner Gap.looking northwest up the National Pike over Turner's Gap,
          > and then circling around counter-clockwise
          >
          > http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam/flyby/turnergap2.mpg
          >
          > The Piper Swale and Turner's Gap flybys are in stereo, and if you can view them
          > in stereo the Turner Gap one is particularly spectacular.
          >
          >
          > T.R. Livesey
          > tlivesey@...
          >
          > On Sat 05/ 9/09 7:27 AM , "eighth_conn_inf" eighth_conn_inf@... sent:
          > > T.R. and Dave,
          > >
          > > The large printed maps do seem to muddy some details and the colors aren't
          > > as good; they are just not as clear as the screen version. Apparently it is
          > > not so easy to get crisp printing on such a large map. I bought one of the
          > > park's laminated ones and two from the Florida printer. The Florida prints
          > > seem to have faded a little.
          > > T.R.--you have the 1904 version? Are the details as clear as they appear on
          > > the computer screen? I'm guessing that finding original copies of either
          > > the 04 or 08 maps is difficult; I've not seen any advertised anywhere.Do
          > > you laminate your smaller prints to take to the field?
          > > Contour lines as on the CC maps are a must for me, too. Now if someone
          > > would program the maps so one could "fly in" to get an overhead
          > > like you can on Google Earth and also get a street view that would be
          > > great.
          > > Larry
          > >
          > > --- In
          > > TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey
          > > wrote:>
          > > > I found my copy of the viewer that I downloaded
          > > several years ago. I couldn't find it on their website. The CC maps are
          > > great, but they are too big to be used as a whole. I have an actual
          > > original edition, and its really too big even when you open it up on a big
          > > table. You end up having to lean over it and my back and neck get sore.
          > > Much better to zoom into an area of interest and make a print out of that
          > > that is a more manageable size. They blow up really well. I have a color
          > > printer that does 11x17 and I have made very nice copies with
          > > it.>
          > > > Any map that does not have topo lines or some
          > > other means of indicating elevation is useless, unless you just want to
          > > frame it and hang it on a wall. For that reason alone the CC maps can't be
          > > beat.>
          > > > T.R. Livesey
          > > > tlivesey@
        • T.R.Livesey
          Larry, I have never had access to a 1908 version to compare. My guess is that the differences between the 2 are minor. A hint of possible changes can be
          Message 4 of 24 , May 24 12:08 PM
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            Larry,

            I have never had access to a 1908 version to compare. My guess is that the
            differences between the 2 are minor. A hint of possible changes can be extracted
            from 1906 correspondence from Carman reprinted in the commemorative volume of the
            Pennsylvania Reserves (pp 95-8). There is a dispute between the Antietam
            Battlefield Commission of Pennsylvania and Carman about the proposed placement of
            the monuments for the 8th, 7th, 4th, and 3rd PR: they want the order to be 8th
            7th 4th and 3rd, whereas Carman's map shows 8th 3rd 4th 7th. After making his
            case, Carman laments : ”It is unfortunate that this matter was not discussed
            earlier. My atlas has been published two years, and a copy sent to each
            regimental organization with the request that any apparent errors might be
            reported, but not a criticism has been made of any position of the First Corps,
            and but one or two trifling ones in other corps.” I don't know if the 1908
            edition was altered to reflect the commission's version. The monuments were
            placed as per Carman's recommendation. Whatever the case, as late as 1906, Carman
            was unaware of 'non-trifling' discrepancies of the 1904 version.

            BTW, the fold-out map that accompanies the PR volume is a real gem: a beautiful
            depiction of the battlefield at the turn of the century (before the various
            bypasses were built) in color and wonderful topographical detail (20 ft interval
            contour lines). One of the nicest maps out there.

            T.R. Livesey
            tlivesey@...

            On Sun 05/24/09 12:51 PM , "eighth_conn_inf" eighth_conn_inf@... sent:
            > TR,
            >
            > I looked at some of your flybys and they are interesting; thanks for
            > sharing them. I will be instructive to see what Stephen comes up with for
            > Virtual Antietam.
            > I've never heard that anyone owns the 1908 CC version let alone listing the
            > differences between the two. Maybe Tom Clemens who is writing about Carman
            > may have that version copied or at least talk about the differences. I
            > recall someone--Jake Pierro--mentioned that the LOC has both 1904 and 1908
            > versions but only has the 1904 on its website.
            > Someday someone may have a good printing done of the the 1908 version and
            > maybe even some done of some of the original prints of the OR maps but my
            > guess is neither is likely to happen unless CWPT or some wealthy CW fan
            > ponies up the required funds since neither will be best sellers.
            > Larry
            >
            >

            >
            >
          • Thomas Clemens
            Somewhere in the papers from Carman I found a listing of the changes. Will see if I can find it for you. We have 8 x10 color negatives of the 1908 maps.
            Message 5 of 24 , May 24 3:11 PM
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              Somewhere in the papers from Carman I found a listing of the changes.
              Will see if I can find it for you. We have 8 x10 color negatives of the
              1908 maps. Maybe I should look into printing them poster-size?

              Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              Professor of History
              Hagerstown Community College


              >>> T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> 05/24/09 3:08 PM >>>
              Larry,

              I have never had access to a 1908 version to compare. My guess is that
              the
              differences between the 2 are minor. A hint of possible changes can be
              extracted
              from 1906 correspondence from Carman reprinted in the commemorative
              volume of the
              Pennsylvania Reserves (pp 95-8). There is a dispute between the Antietam
              Battlefield Commission of Pennsylvania and Carman about the proposed
              placement of
              the monuments for the 8th, 7th, 4th, and 3rd PR: they want the order to
              be 8th
              7th 4th and 3rd, whereas Carman's map shows 8th 3rd 4th 7th. After
              making his
              case, Carman laments : ”It is unfortunate that this matter was not
              discussed
              earlier. My atlas has been published two years, and a copy sent to each
              regimental organization with the request that any apparent errors might
              be
              reported, but not a criticism has been made of any position of the First
              Corps,
              and but one or two trifling ones in other corps.” I don't know if the
              1908
              edition was altered to reflect the commission's version. The monuments
              were
              placed as per Carman's recommendation. Whatever the case, as late as
              1906, Carman
              was unaware of 'non-trifling' discrepancies of the 1904 version.

              BTW, the fold-out map that accompanies the PR volume is a real gem: a
              beautiful
              depiction of the battlefield at the turn of the century (before the
              various
              bypasses were built) in color and wonderful topographical detail (20 ft
              interval
              contour lines). One of the nicest maps out there.

              T.R. Livesey
              tlivesey@...

              On Sun 05/24/09 12:51 PM , "eighth_conn_inf" eighth_conn_inf@...
              sent:
              > TR,
              >
              > I looked at some of your flybys and they are interesting; thanks for
              > sharing them. I will be instructive to see what Stephen comes up with
              for
              > Virtual Antietam.
              > I've never heard that anyone owns the 1908 CC version let alone
              listing the
              > differences between the two. Maybe Tom Clemens who is writing about
              Carman
              > may have that version copied or at least talk about the differences. I
              > recall someone--Jake Pierro--mentioned that the LOC has both 1904 and
              1908
              > versions but only has the 1904 on its website.
              > Someday someone may have a good printing done of the the 1908 version
              and
              > maybe even some done of some of the original prints of the OR maps but
              my
              > guess is neither is likely to happen unless CWPT or some wealthy CW
              fan
              > ponies up the required funds since neither will be best sellers.
              > Larry
              >
              >

              >
              >
            • T.R.Livesey
              Tom, I d be interested in the list of changes. T.R. Livesey tlivesey@westwoodgalleries.com
              Message 6 of 24 , May 24 6:06 PM
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                Tom,

                I'd be interested in the list of changes.

                T.R. Livesey
                tlivesey@...



                On Sun 05/24/09 5:11 PM , "Thomas Clemens" clemenst@... sent:
                > Somewhere in the papers from Carman I found a listing of the changes.
                > Will see if I can find it for you. We have 8 x10 color negatives of
                > the1908 maps. Maybe I should look into printing them poster-size?
                >
                > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > Professor of History
                > Hagerstown Community College
                >
                >
                > >>> T.R.Livesey 05/24/09 3:08 PM
                > >>>Larry,
                >
                > I have never had access to a 1908 version to compare. My guess is that
                > the
                > differences between the 2 are minor. A hint of possible changes can be
                > extracted
                > from 1906 correspondence from Carman reprinted in the commemorative
                > volume of the
                > Pennsylvania Reserves (pp 95-8). There is a dispute between the
                > AntietamBattlefield Commission of Pennsylvania and Carman about the proposed
                > placement of
                > the monuments for the 8th, 7th, 4th, and 3rd PR: they want the order to
                > be 8th
                > 7th 4th and 3rd, whereas Carman's map shows 8th 3rd 4th 7th. After
                > making his
                > case, Carman laments : ”It is unfortunate that this matter was
                > notdiscussed
                > earlier. My atlas has been published two years, and a copy sent to each
                > regimental organization with the request that any apparent errors might
                > be
                > reported, but not a criticism has been made of any position of the
                > FirstCorps,
                > and but one or two trifling ones in other corps.” I don't know if
                > the1908
                > edition was altered to reflect the commission's version. The monuments
                > were
                > placed as per Carman's recommendation. Whatever the case, as late as
                > 1906, Carman
                > was unaware of 'non-trifling' discrepancies of the 1904 version.
                >
                > BTW, the fold-out map that accompanies the PR volume is a real gem: a
                > beautiful
                > depiction of the battlefield at the turn of the century (before the
                > various
                > bypasses were built) in color and wonderful topographical detail (20 ft
                > interval
                > contour lines). One of the nicest maps out there.
                >
                > T.R. Livesey
                > tlivesey@...

                >
              • eighth_conn_inf
                Tom, I also am interested in the changes as well as a set of the 1908 maps. The best for them would be full size on sturdy, laminated paper, obviously clearly
                Message 7 of 24 , May 24 7:09 PM
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                  Tom,

                  I also am interested in the changes as well as a set of the 1908 maps. The best for them would be full size on sturdy, laminated paper, obviously clearly printed in non fading ink as discussed below.

                  If you think this is possible, you could PM me with an estimated cost just in case I don't win the lottery.

                  TR, it would be interesting to see the 3rd PR book's map.

                  Larry

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Tom,
                  >
                  > I'd be interested in the list of changes.
                  >
                  > T.R. Livesey
                  > tlivesey@...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Sun 05/24/09 5:11 PM , "Thomas Clemens" clemenst@... sent:
                  > > Somewhere in the papers from Carman I found a listing of the changes.
                  > > Will see if I can find it for you. We have 8 x10 color negatives of
                  > > the1908 maps. Maybe I should look into printing them poster-size?
                  > >
                  > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > > Professor of History
                  > > Hagerstown Community College
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >>> T.R.Livesey 05/24/09 3:08 PM
                  > > >>>Larry,
                  > >
                  > > I have never had access to a 1908 version to compare. My guess is that
                  > > the
                  > > differences between the 2 are minor. A hint of possible changes can be
                  > > extracted
                  > > from 1906 correspondence from Carman reprinted in the commemorative
                  > > volume of the
                  > > Pennsylvania Reserves (pp 95-8). There is a dispute between the
                  > > AntietamBattlefield Commission of Pennsylvania and Carman about the proposed
                  > > placement of
                  > > the monuments for the 8th, 7th, 4th, and 3rd PR: they want the order to
                  > > be 8th
                  > > 7th 4th and 3rd, whereas Carman's map shows 8th 3rd 4th 7th. After
                  > > making his
                  > > case, Carman laments : ”It is unfortunate that this matter was
                  > > notdiscussed
                  > > earlier. My atlas has been published two years, and a copy sent to each
                  > > regimental organization with the request that any apparent errors might
                  > > be
                  > > reported, but not a criticism has been made of any position of the
                  > > FirstCorps,
                  > > and but one or two trifling ones in other corps.” I don't know if
                  > > the1908
                  > > edition was altered to reflect the commission's version. The monuments
                  > > were
                  > > placed as per Carman's recommendation. Whatever the case, as late as
                  > > 1906, Carman
                  > > was unaware of 'non-trifling' discrepancies of the 1904 version.
                  > >
                  > > BTW, the fold-out map that accompanies the PR volume is a real gem: a
                  > > beautiful
                  > > depiction of the battlefield at the turn of the century (before the
                  > > various
                  > > bypasses were built) in color and wonderful topographical detail (20 ft
                  > > interval
                  > > contour lines). One of the nicest maps out there.
                  > >
                  > > T.R. Livesey
                  > > tlivesey@...
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                • T.R.Livesey
                  http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=125511040&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26tn%3Dpennsylvania%2Breserves%2Bat%2Bantietam%26x%3D0%26y%3D0 T.R. Livesey
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 24 8:51 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=125511040&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26tn%3Dpennsylvania%2Breserves%2Bat%2Bantietam%26x%3D0%26y%3D0

                    T.R. Livesey
                    tlivesey@...

                    On Sun 05/24/09 9:09 PM , "eighth_conn_inf" eighth_conn_inf@... sent:

                    > TR, it would be interesting to see the 3rd PR book's map.
                    >
                    > Larry
                    >
                    > --- In
                    > TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey
                    > wrote:>
                  • Thomas Clemens
                    OK, but it won t be anytime soon. I am rushing to finish some other stuff and go out of town for a week. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 25 7:07 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      OK, but it won't be anytime soon. I am rushing to finish some other
                      stuff and go out of town for a week.

                      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      Professor of History
                      Hagerstown Community College


                      >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 05/24/09 10:09 PM >>>
                      Tom,

                      I also am interested in the changes as well as a set of the 1908 maps.
                      The best for them would be full size on sturdy, laminated paper,
                      obviously clearly printed in non fading ink as discussed below.

                      If you think this is possible, you could PM me with an estimated cost
                      just in case I don't win the lottery.

                      TR, it would be interesting to see the 3rd PR book's map.

                      Larry

                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Tom,
                      >
                      > I'd be interested in the list of changes.
                      >
                      > T.R. Livesey
                      > tlivesey@...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Sun 05/24/09 5:11 PM , "Thomas Clemens" clemenst@... sent:
                      > > Somewhere in the papers from Carman I found a listing of the
                      changes.
                      > > Will see if I can find it for you. We have 8 x10 color negatives of
                      > > the1908 maps. Maybe I should look into printing them poster-size?
                      > >
                      > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > > Professor of History
                      > > Hagerstown Community College
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >>> T.R.Livesey 05/24/09 3:08 PM
                      > > >>>Larry,
                      > >
                      > > I have never had access to a 1908 version to compare. My guess is
                      that
                      > > the
                      > > differences between the 2 are minor. A hint of possible changes can
                      be
                      > > extracted
                      > > from 1906 correspondence from Carman reprinted in the commemorative
                      > > volume of the
                      > > Pennsylvania Reserves (pp 95-8). There is a dispute between the
                      > > AntietamBattlefield Commission of Pennsylvania and Carman about the
                      proposed
                      > > placement of
                      > > the monuments for the 8th, 7th, 4th, and 3rd PR: they want the order
                      to
                      > > be 8th
                      > > 7th 4th and 3rd, whereas Carman's map shows 8th 3rd 4th 7th. After
                      > > making his
                      > > case, Carman laments : †It is unfortunate that this matter was
                      > > notdiscussed
                      > > earlier. My atlas has been published two years, and a copy sent to
                      each
                      > > regimental organization with the request that any apparent errors
                      might
                      > > be
                      > > reported, but not a criticism has been made of any position of the
                      > > FirstCorps,
                      > > and but one or two trifling ones in other corps.†I don't know if
                      > > the1908
                      > > edition was altered to reflect the commission's version. The
                      monuments
                      > > were
                      > > placed as per Carman's recommendation. Whatever the case, as late as
                      > > 1906, Carman
                      > > was unaware of 'non-trifling' discrepancies of the 1904 version.
                      > >
                      > > BTW, the fold-out map that accompanies the PR volume is a real gem:
                      a
                      > > beautiful
                      > > depiction of the battlefield at the turn of the century (before the
                      > > various
                      > > bypasses were built) in color and wonderful topographical detail (20
                      ft
                      > > interval
                      > > contour lines). One of the nicest maps out there.
                      > >
                      > > T.R. Livesey
                      > > tlivesey@...
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Larry Freiheit
                      No rush, thx Tom. ... From: Thomas Clemens Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CC Map Question To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Date:
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 25 11:19 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        No rush, thx Tom.

                        --- On Mon, 5/25/09, Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...> wrote:


                        From: Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...>
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CC Map Question
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, May 25, 2009, 10:07 AM








                        OK, but it won't be anytime soon. I am rushing to finish some other
                        stuff and go out of town for a week.

                        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        Professor of History
                        Hagerstown Community College

                        >>> "eighth_conn_ inf" <eighth_conn_ inf@yahoo. com> 05/24/09 10:09 PM >>>
                        Tom,

                        I also am interested in the changes as well as a set of the 1908 maps.
                        The best for them would be full size on sturdy, laminated paper,
                        obviously clearly printed in non fading ink as discussed below.

                        If you think this is possible, you could PM me with an estimated cost
                        just in case I don't win the lottery.

                        TR, it would be interesting to see the 3rd PR book's map.

                        Larry

                        --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@.. .> wrote:
                        >
                        > Tom,
                        >
                        > I'd be interested in the list of changes.
                        >
                        > T.R. Livesey
                        > tlivesey@...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On Sun 05/24/09 5:11 PM , "Thomas Clemens" clemenst@... sent:
                        > > Somewhere in the papers from Carman I found a listing of the
                        changes.
                        > > Will see if I can find it for you. We have 8 x10 color negatives of
                        > > the1908 maps. Maybe I should look into printing them poster-size?
                        > >
                        > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > > Professor of History
                        > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >>> T.R.Livesey 05/24/09 3:08 PM
                        > > >>>Larry,
                        > >
                        > > I have never had access to a 1908 version to compare. My guess is
                        that
                        > > the
                        > > differences between the 2 are minor. A hint of possible changes can
                        be
                        > > extracted
                        > > from 1906 correspondence from Carman reprinted in the commemorative
                        > > volume of the
                        > > Pennsylvania Reserves (pp 95-8). There is a dispute between the
                        > > AntietamBattlefield Commission of Pennsylvania and Carman about the
                        proposed
                        > > placement of
                        > > the monuments for the 8th, 7th, 4th, and 3rd PR: they want the order
                        to
                        > > be 8th
                        > > 7th 4th and 3rd, whereas Carman's map shows 8th 3rd 4th 7th. After
                        > > making his
                        > > case, Carman laments : †It is unfortunate that this matter was
                        > > notdiscussed
                        > > earlier. My atlas has been published two years, and a copy sent to
                        each
                        > > regimental organization with the request that any apparent errors
                        might
                        > > be
                        > > reported, but not a criticism has been made of any position of the
                        > > FirstCorps,
                        > > and but one or two trifling ones in other corps.†I don't know if
                        > > the1908
                        > > edition was altered to reflect the commission's version. The
                        monuments
                        > > were
                        > > placed as per Carman's recommendation. Whatever the case, as late as
                        > > 1906, Carman
                        > > was unaware of 'non-trifling' discrepancies of the 1904 version.
                        > >
                        > > BTW, the fold-out map that accompanies the PR volume is a real gem:
                        a
                        > > beautiful
                        > > depiction of the battlefield at the turn of the century (before the
                        > > various
                        > > bypasses were built) in color and wonderful topographical detail (20
                        ft
                        > > interval
                        > > contour lines). One of the nicest maps out there.
                        > >
                        > > T.R. Livesey
                        > > tlivesey@...
                        >
                        > >
                        >



















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • G E Mayers
                        Dear Tom, What would such a project cost? Would it be something SHAF could offer at a discount to members? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian,
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 25 2:22 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Tom,

                          What would such a project cost? Would it be something SHAF could
                          offer at a discount to members?

                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:11 PM
                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CC Map Question


                          > Somewhere in the papers from Carman I found a listing of the
                          > changes.
                          > Will see if I can find it for you. We have 8 x10 color
                          > negatives of the
                          > 1908 maps. Maybe I should look into printing them poster-size?
                          >
                          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > Professor of History
                          > Hagerstown Community College
                          >
                          >
                          >>>> T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...> 05/24/09 3:08
                          >>>> PM >>>
                          > Larry,
                          >
                          > I have never had access to a 1908 version to compare. My guess
                          > is that
                          > the
                          > differences between the 2 are minor. A hint of possible changes
                          > can be
                          > extracted
                          > from 1906 correspondence from Carman reprinted in the
                          > commemorative
                          > volume of the
                          > Pennsylvania Reserves (pp 95-8). There is a dispute between the
                          > Antietam
                          > Battlefield Commission of Pennsylvania and Carman about the
                          > proposed
                          > placement of
                          > the monuments for the 8th, 7th, 4th, and 3rd PR: they want the
                          > order to
                          > be 8th
                          > 7th 4th and 3rd, whereas Carman's map shows 8th 3rd 4th 7th.
                          > After
                          > making his
                          > case, Carman laments : ”It is unfortunate that this matter was
                          > not
                          > discussed
                          > earlier. My atlas has been published two years, and a copy sent
                          > to each
                          > regimental organization with the request that any apparent
                          > errors might
                          > be
                          > reported, but not a criticism has been made of any position of
                          > the First
                          > Corps,
                          > and but one or two trifling ones in other corps.” I don't know
                          > if the
                          > 1908
                          > edition was altered to reflect the commission's version. The
                          > monuments
                          > were
                          > placed as per Carman's recommendation. Whatever the case, as
                          > late as
                          > 1906, Carman
                          > was unaware of 'non-trifling' discrepancies of the 1904
                          > version.
                          >
                          > BTW, the fold-out map that accompanies the PR volume is a real
                          > gem: a
                          > beautiful
                          > depiction of the battlefield at the turn of the century (before
                          > the
                          > various
                          > bypasses were built) in color and wonderful topographical
                          > detail (20 ft
                          > interval
                          > contour lines). One of the nicest maps out there.
                          >
                          > T.R. Livesey
                          > tlivesey@...
                          >
                          > On Sun 05/24/09 12:51 PM , "eighth_conn_inf"
                          > eighth_conn_inf@...
                          > sent:
                          >> TR,
                          >>
                          >> I looked at some of your flybys and they are interesting;
                          >> thanks for
                          >> sharing them. I will be instructive to see what Stephen comes
                          >> up with
                          > for
                          >> Virtual Antietam.
                          >> I've never heard that anyone owns the 1908 CC version let
                          >> alone
                          > listing the
                          >> differences between the two. Maybe Tom Clemens who is writing
                          >> about
                          > Carman
                          >> may have that version copied or at least talk about the
                          >> differences. I
                          >> recall someone--Jake Pierro--mentioned that the LOC has both
                          >> 1904 and
                          > 1908
                          >> versions but only has the 1904 on its website.
                          >> Someday someone may have a good printing done of the the 1908
                          >> version
                          > and
                          >> maybe even some done of some of the original prints of the OR
                          >> maps but
                          > my
                          >> guess is neither is likely to happen unless CWPT or some
                          >> wealthy CW
                          > fan
                          >> ponies up the required funds since neither will be best
                          >> sellers.
                          >> Larry
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Dave
                          Gerry, I think one could compare a high-quality printing run with Morningside s printing of the Bachelder maps. They printed them years ago, and the set of
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 29 2:56 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Gerry,

                            I think one could compare a high-quality printing run with Morningside's
                            printing of the Bachelder maps. They printed them years ago, and the
                            set of 28 (37 x 27) run $250. They've been that price for many years,
                            and I think that's a very fair price. I don't have them, but I've seen
                            them, and they are the quality we would like to see in the CC maps (much
                            better than the one in the museum). If someone was willing to have them
                            printed, I would make sure that they had the money in hand from those
                            interested before starting out. My feeling is that $20-$25 for each map
                            would be a good price, but that's still a lot of money for most folks
                            and I don't believe it could be done that cheaply in any event. Maybe
                            we can turn this in as a Stimulus package request.

                            Dave McGowan

                            G E Mayers wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Dear Tom,
                            >
                            > What would such a project cost? Would it be something SHAF could
                            > offer at a discount to members?
                            >
                            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                            >
                            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                            > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                            > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                            > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...
                            > <mailto:clemenst%40hagerstowncc.edu>>
                            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                            > Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:11 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CC Map Question
                            >
                            > > Somewhere in the papers from Carman I found a listing of the
                            > > changes.
                            > > Will see if I can find it for you. We have 8 x10 color
                            > > negatives of the
                            > > 1908 maps. Maybe I should look into printing them poster-size?
                            > >
                            > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                            > > Professor of History
                            > > Hagerstown Community College
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >>>> T.R.Livesey <tlivesey@...
                            > <mailto:tlivesey%40westwoodgalleries.com>> 05/24/09 3:08
                            > >>>> PM >>>
                            > > Larry,
                            > >
                            > > I have never had access to a 1908 version to compare. My guess
                            > > is that
                            > > the
                            > > differences between the 2 are minor. A hint of possible changes
                            > > can be
                            > > extracted
                            > > from 1906 correspondence from Carman reprinted in the
                            > > commemorative
                            > > volume of the
                            > > Pennsylvania Reserves (pp 95-8). There is a dispute between the
                            > > Antietam
                            > > Battlefield Commission of Pennsylvania and Carman about the
                            > > proposed
                            > > placement of
                            > > the monuments for the 8th, 7th, 4th, and 3rd PR: they want the
                            > > order to
                            > > be 8th
                            > > 7th 4th and 3rd, whereas Carman's map shows 8th 3rd 4th 7th.
                            > > After
                            > > making his
                            > > case, Carman laments : ”It is unfortunate that this matter was
                            > > not
                            > > discussed
                            > > earlier. My atlas has been published two years, and a copy sent
                            > > to each
                            > > regimental organization with the request that any apparent
                            > > errors might
                            > > be
                            > > reported, but not a criticism has been made of any position of
                            > > the First
                            > > Corps,
                            > > and but one or two trifling ones in other corps.” I don't know
                            > > if the
                            > > 1908
                            > > edition was altered to reflect the commission's version. The
                            > > monuments
                            > > were
                            > > placed as per Carman's recommendation. Whatever the case, as
                            > > late as
                            > > 1906, Carman
                            > > was unaware of 'non-trifling' discrepancies of the 1904
                            > > version.
                            > >
                            > > BTW, the fold-out map that accompanies the PR volume is a real
                            > > gem: a
                            > > beautiful
                            > > depiction of the battlefield at the turn of the century (before
                            > > the
                            > > various
                            > > bypasses were built) in color and wonderful topographical
                            > > detail (20 ft
                            > > interval
                            > > contour lines). One of the nicest maps out there.
                            > >
                            > > T.R. Livesey
                            > > tlivesey@... <mailto:tlivesey%40westwoodgalleries.com>
                            > >
                            > > On Sun 05/24/09 12:51 PM , "eighth_conn_inf"
                            > > eighth_conn_inf@... <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%40yahoo.com>
                            > > sent:
                            > >> TR,
                            > >>
                            > >> I looked at some of your flybys and they are interesting;
                            > >> thanks for
                            > >> sharing them. I will be instructive to see what Stephen comes
                            > >> up with
                            > > for
                            > >> Virtual Antietam.
                            > >> I've never heard that anyone owns the 1908 CC version let
                            > >> alone
                            > > listing the
                            > >> differences between the two. Maybe Tom Clemens who is writing
                            > >> about
                            > > Carman
                            > >> may have that version copied or at least talk about the
                            > >> differences. I
                            > >> recall someone--Jake Pierro--mentioned that the LOC has both
                            > >> 1904 and
                            > > 1908
                            > >> versions but only has the 1904 on its website.
                            > >> Someday someone may have a good printing done of the the 1908
                            > >> version
                            > > and
                            > >> maybe even some done of some of the original prints of the OR
                            > >> maps but
                            > > my
                            > >> guess is neither is likely to happen unless CWPT or some
                            > >> wealthy CW
                            > > fan
                            > >> ponies up the required funds since neither will be best
                            > >> sellers.
                            > >> Larry
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
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